Character Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

I don't really think Mario loses [much] to anyone, so it's still likely more efficient for someone to just keep to Mario.
Doc would have playstyle differences that resonate better with some people, he is slightly better at walling and can have much more damaging/stock taking reads. But kinda like Pit vs Dark Pit, there's at least some better consistency afforded to the original (in this case it's more pronounced).

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Dedede is the most fun IMO. But Customs Doc is a monster. Fast capsule is like Brawl Falco's lasers to an extent (it can even jab lock, which is easy to set up with Doc). And let's not forget Gust sheet: destroyer of souls.

 

[Quickhero]

Dedede is the most fun IMO. But Customs Doc is a monster. Fast capsule is like Brawl Falco's lasers to an extent (it can even jab lock, which is easy to set up with Doc).

Not trying to complain, but mannnnn. Why does everybody have Brawl Falco's lasers except for Falco?

 

[Blobface]

Not trying to complain, but mannnnn. Why does everybody have Brawl Falco's lasers except for Falco?

"It's just like Brawl Falco Lasers!" sounds like an ad tagline of some kind.

I still feel I don't understand Falco's problems (not denying that he has them). It seems to me he has excellent true combo ability, great damage-per-hit, and plenty of kill moves.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Just food for thought, all based on the guess that meteor bombs cause a meteor spike lol. How severe is the spike, and does it always spike? What are the trade-offs, especially damage?

MBs do next to nothing until the opponent has some % built up, (35% before anything happens IIRC) and it scales from there. MBs do less damage and have a shorter timer until they detonate. Link can't bomb-jump with MBs obviously. Well OK, he CAN, because it still refreshes his up-B, but at a net loss of altitude, so no.

MBs are better for offense; default bombs are better for defense.

And moreover, what do you Link players think is the optimal set up for handling shiek? This discussion has piqued my interest in the character. Having a neutral that can compete with shiek is a very rare trait. How bad is his disadvantage? Because if the link is careful, he should be killing shiek before he dies (although this is easier said than done, I find myself running out of options and dying to bouncing fish in awkward situations pretty frequently when I do try the MU).

Sheik is still one of if not the worst matchup he has. Other fast runners Capt. Falcon and Sonic also give Link similar problems, because as A2ZOMG said, anyone who can zip in and out of Link's preferred range gives him headaches. On top of that, Sheik's dash attack is very low to the ground especially in the final frames, and Link's Jab 1 and (on a bad read) boomerang goes high. I've once had Sheik dash-attack me clean out of a grounded 'rang -- the 'rang just went over her head. We should have traded.

But Link tanks hits well and his projectiles hurt, so as long as he can avoid getting gimped on recovery he can do some work. Bouncing Fish and Needles aren't as much of a problem for him as Sheik's other opponents. Forward half-hop into down-angled 'rang deals with needles, and a tossed bomb can safely absorb 3 or so. And then there's Hylian Shield. Link's happy to trade with Sheik's BF, or anything else really, so long as it doesn't kill him or put him offstage. It's just that damn dash speed that doesn't let him play.

I've toyed with his Ripping Boomerang in this MU on the idea that since it stays closer to him and multi-hits it's great for pinning her down and is less catastrophic if it misses on the outward trip, but the longer startup is looking to be a dealbreaker. QuickFire Bow though, I think I prefer in the MU more than the other bows. Maybe.

 

[Blobface]

It's worth mentioning that hitting Meteor bombs onstage puts people into considerable hitstun, enough that you can true combo into Dash attack IIRC.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Falco seems to just have a big problem getting out of neutral and getting things started. What can Falco do to make someone regret just running away from him and resetting? Lasers are a minor nuisance, Phantasm loses the hitbox 2/3 of the way in, and he doesn't have enough speed to chase down and threaten with Dash Attack or Hyphen Smashes or Nairs, or what have you.

Phantasm, Bair, Jab, and Fast Fire Bird are great defensive tools to be sure, but Falco's lacking in consistent offense.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

"It's just like Brawl Falco Lasers!" sounds like an ad tagline of some kind.

I still feel I don't understand Falco's problems (not denying that he has them). It seems to me he has excellent true combo ability, great damage-per-hit, and plenty of kill moves.

If you win the lottery and expect a million bucks, one would probably be dissappointed if they got it but in some foreign currency and tried to spend it in the U.S. In the same way, Falco's playstyle has change from previous games, and people try to play him like that. It doesn't work, so they pass him off as bad and move on. It's the Falco effect.

 

[Megamang]

^Agree, especially compounded by the fact he plays totally different in all three games. Still, there is no denying he doesn't seem as impressive as in brawl (time will tell though) and definitely has almost nothing on his melee counterpart.


Why, oh why, did differentiating falco have to be so... inconvenient for falco? I mean, I know they had to alter him, but losing a sex kick sucks =[

 

[Quickhero]

If you win the lottery and expect a million bucks, one would probably be disappointed if they got it but in some foreign currency and tried to spend it in the U.S. In the same way, Falco's playstyle has change from previous games, and people try to play him like that. It doesn't work, so they pass him off as bad and move on. It's the Falco effect.

I think it should be called the Ike effect more than anything, since he's the most extreme example of this. He became fast as hell because his aerials are just so freaking good with f-air and u-air having almost no landing lag, (Not to mention that they can keep up with SONIC) having a really good combo game with it (for a heavy, at least), and a really good u-smash. He clearly has the data to become the best swordsman, yet Ryuga and Ryo are like the only people that consistently play Ike and even they are seldom seen.

Falco has this effect, but I feel like it also is the fact that Falco has genuine problems with his neutral game (albeit not so much for a Falco main not to be able to manage) since they removed most of his options in the neutral from Brawl.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I think it should be called the Ike effect more than anything, since he's the most extreme example of this. He became fast as hell because his aerials are just so freaking good with f-air and u-air having almost no landing lag, (Not to mention that they can keep up with SONIC) having a really good combo game with it (for a heavy, at least), and a really good u-smash. He clearly has the data to become the best swordsman, yet Ryuga and Ryo are like the only people that consistently play Ike and even they are seldom seen.

Falco has this effect, but I feel like it also is the fact that Falco has genuine problems with his neutral game (albeit not so much for a Falco main not to be able to manage) since they removed most of his options in the neutral from Brawl.

You make a valid point.
What really bothers me is that Marth has like, more landing lag than Ike now. Not really sure how that happened.

 

[|RK|]

You make a valid point.
What really bothers me is that Marth has like, more landing lag than Ike now. Not really sure how that happened.

Ike worked out between games; the landings are easier on his body. Marth didn't.

 

[Shaya]

Larry just took first game of winner's finals against ZeRo's Sheik with Fox.
Forcing ZeRo to go to Diddy, and in the second match right now he's still really behind larry.
Larry up 2-0 against ZeRo's two "best characters in the game". Larry really enjoying the 20-30% and free kill move whenever he lands a jab *cough cough*.

http://www.twitch.tv/fadgames

 

[TriTails]

What Falco is struggling the most IMO is his unability to move fast without getting punished. Slow dashing speed and air speed disables him from chasing down opponents, Falco Phantasm loses its hitbox for about 2/3 of the entire move's duration (I'd gladly trade my meteor hitbox for actually usable attacking move%), Fire Bird is... well, Fire Bird lol.

And he doesn't have projectiles like Luigi's Fireballs or Link's arrows. There he stucks, with wierd blaster that only does 3% and has huge ending lag. He KOs alright, but landing them is a different story.

It's hard to believe him and Marth were top tiers in Melee and Brawl if you hadn't played those two games... Those two sure got hit hard if they dropped that much.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If someone mained both Mario and Dr. Mario, could they reasonably cover all matchups?

They both happen to do pretty bad against Donkey Kong and the Pits imo. Other than that...it sorta works.

 

[Ffamran]

"It's just like Brawl Falco Lasers!" sounds like an ad tagline of some kind.

I still feel I don't understand Falco's problems (not denying that he has them). It seems to me he has excellent true combo ability, great damage-per-hit, and plenty of kill moves.

Approach, approach, and approach with disadvantage issues, but even characters considered high tier have bad disadvantages like Captain Falcon.

Spoiler: Long-winded explanation of stuff

I don't play the King of Fighter games much, but I love the art style and I'd love to main Iori Yagami (who I think is where Wolf's moveset was inspired from) and King. Maybe Joe Higashi because of Nobuyuki Hiyama, Link's Ocarina of Time voice actor, voicing him.

Anyway, King functioned as a zoner as she had access to several projectiles from what I remember. In a way, Brawl Falco could be considered like her except King didn't wall out people in a broken way. Melee Falco could fit as well, but he could approach you as well whereas Brawl Falco approached and forced approaches in a really broken way with one move, Blaster. Melee Falco had to do more. SSB4 Falco should have been like King who could force approaches safely and fairly. I'm not sure, but I don't think King could wall out people like Link, Villager, and Mega Man with several angles of projectiles and functions of projectiles. It was just an energy blast from kicks which translated to Falco would be Blaster used at different heights, timing, etc.

With a slower grab, slower Dash Attack, no shield push on Bair, and being slow in general, Falco ends up playing a game he wasn't designed or assigned to be. To me Falco was supposed to be an anti-zoner, but now he's playing a punisher and boxing game which he is good at, but he doesn't excel at like Little Mac and Ganondorf who have the durability, power, range, speed, and/or safety to do so. If King's projectiles were butchered, say more startup, end lag, less damage, shorter travel, etc., she could end up in a position like Falco in SSB4, but SNK makes fighting games dedicated to fighting games enthusiasts, so they will cater to a smaller community. King will always function well, but Falco has gone through ups and downs, exploited two games, and is now ended up in this Limbo state of what is Falco supposed to do to fight?

The theory is his Blaster is supposed to force approaches from afar allowing him to fight close up. Falco was designated as the anti-zoner. His close up game allows him to be a boxer and his raw damage and knockback allowed him to be a punisher. That was Falco since Melee by design. Had he moved faster on foot, he'd be broken with a Blaster like that. With his jump height, fast and string aerials, a good air speed would make him broken. Anyway, things on paper don't always go as planned since Melee and Brawl were heavily exploited by Falco. He became in Melee, a comboer and a rushdowner who halted your momentum with Blaster and comboed you to hell and back with Reflector alongside his other moves. Melee Falco not only forced approaches, but he approached fairly quickly and efficiently. Brawl Falco essentially became a zoner who walled people out unfairly. Add in chaingrabbing and you had a zoner and grappler who was a pain in the *** to fight. Imagine Duck Hunt if Duck Hunt killed more consistently and threw out projectiles even faster. Or imagine Samus, ZSS, or any other projectile user if they could throw out a wall faster and was extremely difficult to manage. ZSS being able to short hop double stun or even triple stun with a timed and positioned Down Smash... Dear lord that would be freaking horrible.

SSB4 Falco functions almost like 50% of what he was designed to be. He can't anti-zone well, but he can punish and box well; 50% is barely functioning while the other 50% is fantastic. Take Zelda whose design isn't that great, but she functions as a defensive, punish character with long range capabilities. She doesn't function well, but she functions as intended. Or Ganondorf whose design works completely and flows with what he is supposed to be doing as a slow-moving, powerful, durable punisher. Or Captain Falcon whose design worked since 64 as a comboer and rushdowner who can punish, but his main game works. Falco's just doesn't; Falco's incomplete as a fighter who has this hole in what he's supposed to be doing.

The end lag is what kills Falco's ability to force approaches. Auto-canceling was just way too good when you see Falco is able to repeatedly fire and move his way towards people. Too much end lag and he's a sitting pheasant; players spamming Falco's Blaster is just pitiful since the end lag makes it look pathetic and he can't get away with it even with input lag like how Link can or even Fox who has speed to run away. If Bair did shield push, it would help his approach, but is Falco supposed to be approaching? Helpful, but a decent, limited, and predictable approach option isn't enough if he can't force approaches like Fox, Samus, and Mega Man who can approach well along with forcing approaches well.

Then you look at Luigi, Mario, and Dr. Mario whose Fireballs and Pills force approaches decently because of the low - compared to Falco's - end lag or look at Fox's Impact Blaster end lag, Rosalina's Shooting Star Bit end lag, etc. For Falco on the ground it takes 11 frames to fire which is all right, but the total frames is 58. That's basically a second. In the air, it's frame 9 to shoot and 49 total frames, less than a second, but it's long as hell - it's about as long as his Up Smash which kills, combos, and does 13% more damage. Shave off about 20 frames from Blaster's end lag and Falco would actually have the ability to force approaches while not doing so in a broken way or way too good way.

There's also the sad part of where @DanGR was right about Falco jumping around to approach - Hi, Dan, I'm the genie who shows up whenever Falco's name is mentioned . I don't see any character do that unless they're going for tomahawk grabs. Falco can legitimately use and rely on tomahawks/empty hops to approach and force approaches. Don't believe me? Watch Manny Manito and be in awe how stupid that it works. It's like moonwalking if moonwalking involved backflips.

 

[Quickhero]

It's hard to believe him and Marth were top tiers in Melee and Brawl if you hadn't played those two games... Those two sure got hit hard if they dropped that much.

Honestly I think Marth is hella good now. Imo he's barely missing top 15, (and most certainly not top 10) but his edgeguard game is actually quite amazing against a lot of the cast and Dancing Blade properly comboing makes things like kill-confirms a real thing and actually makes me comfortable with Dolphin Slash over Crescent Slash. Also jab is a really good tool in neutral ESPECIALLY with perfect pivots and f-tilt as well.

Marth doesn't do terrible against Sheik either, since whenever Sheik gets too close and even gets to grab range just bop Sheik with Dolphin Slash. That existed earlier, but with Marth having a much better neutral game in general it becomes a lot more noticeable that a high level Sheik Sheik doesn't have a MASSIVE advantage against Marth by just waiting and just getting that one f-air with little risk, but now Sheik actually has to think a bit more carefully against Marth. Marth vs Fox was never a bad match-up for Marth tbh and obviously Marth does a bit better vs Diddy but everyone does.

 

[Kofu]

remind me again how G&W is low tier

becuase this **** seems ****ing absurd lmfao

jesus christ he can duck under a load of grabs and so many attacks it's ridiculous

Other characters with low crouches can do the same. Game & Watch's isn't amazing, though, for the reason that his options out of a crouch are fairly weak. DTilt is fast (frame 6) and has good range, but has considerable cooldown and weak knockback. Seeing as most of his moveset is designed to have moderate to slow startup but quick recovery, it's a bit of an oddball.

He's also one of the characters most adversely affected by rage in the game. Pikachu is probably one of the other contenders, and he has far better stage control than Game & Watch. I probably underestimated how powerful Bucket Braking was in Brawl. Probably made him roughly as heavy as Mario if not more if launched across the stage. He does have one of the more ridiculous recovery moves in the game, though, so if he was heavier he could really stick around.

@ Ffamran his DAir really isn't that good. Slow startup and fairly easy to hit him out of it if he's careless (or just shield it). It's a decent option for challenging other aerials, though.

Really it feels like he was balanced for FFAs and the ability to get Judges and Oil Panics out all the time. Unfortunately that leaves him without a lot of guaranteed kill setups and fast kill options.

 

[TheZyzyva]

Larry just took first game of winner's finals against ZeRo's Sheik with Fox.
Forcing ZeRo to go to Diddy, and in the second match right now he's still really behind larry.
Larry up 2-0 against ZeRo's two "best characters in the game". Larry really enjoying the 20-30% and free kill move whenever he lands a jab *cough cough*.

http://www.twitch.tv/fadgames

So Shaya, maybe you can enlighten me; I keep seeing Larry do Foxes jab lock succesfully, but doesnt convert it to an usmash. Last time I watched them go at it he kept pushing them to the ledge for dsmash, and I only caught th final game tonight but I again saw him opt out of an usmash kill. Is jab lock to usmash not ad guaranteed as people would have us believe? Cause if it is, he passed on definite KOs, and I doubt a player like him would do that.

 

[Shaya]

Down Smash is faster (he also dropped quite a few jab kills he could've gotten). Seems like ZeRo is able to air dodge the up smash every time Larry tried with Diddy, so it's either a matter of requiring more technical prowess or it just isn't real (at least on Diddy).

 

[Hokuwokk]

So ive been trying to find out who would be a good secondary for me. I main DK and lately ive been having some problems with certain characters. Fox and Shulk give me issues in particular. Fox is too fast and eats DK when it comes to combos and i feel like shulks normals beat out DK's easy. In the air in particular. Even when i face Zelda, i feel like her normals beat out mine on the ground and in the air. idk maybe my timing is off with most of the things i attempt or maybe those MUs dont favor DK too much. Im basically trying to figure who I can have on deck when I need them. Before i decided to main DK forreal forreal i was playing greninja for a time being, then lucina, then mario, falco, shiek, then marth. Was just pretty much trying to "find" my character until i came across DK. Any tips on a secondary or should i just dedicate to DK ???

 

[ZeldaMaster]

So do all the fire emblem characters still suck?

 

[Quickhero]

So do all the fire emblem characters still suck?

Lucina was the only one that arguably did. Now it's 100% certain that none of them suck, but Lucina still has no niche so if that counts than yes she is bad????? o.o

 

[Shaya]

I think Marth/Lucina get so much out of dancing blade now they just ... don't suck as much.
Robin mains are getting more out of using their jab now too (which kills) and more reliably able to grab tomes for item-play use (those darn things KILL and fly like rockets).

I feel Fire Emblem Tier is dead. But we'll see.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Once Robins learn how to consistently insta-catch tomes they'll be able to apply pressure at a moment's notice. I've only just got the third method down, the one with the SH. Hard as hell getting the first method down. X_X

 

[Radical Larry]

Has anyone been holding the Left Analog stick down when they use the C-Stick/Right Analog stick for their aerials? Oddly enough, it doesn't produce a Fast-Fall Cancel, it performs a type of attack-influenced fast fall, in which allows characters to automatically fast fall with their attacks. I've been using this with Ganondorf's aerials recently, and it's great for his edge-guarding capabilities with D-Air and great for his Frame-Cancelling; it's also good with his other aerials, too, since the opponent won't be expecting it.

Other characters I know that benefit from this are Link, Captain Falcon, Robin and Doctor Mario. But characters who don't benefit, and are actually hurt by it, are included, but not limited to, Fox, Falco, Sheik, Jigglypuff, Yoshi, Donkey Kong, King Dedede, Samus, ZSS and Little Mac.

Anyone know what this tech is? I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere on the forums yet.

 

[Antonykun]

wow a lot of low tiers are good at boxing out characters

 

[FullMoon]

Once Robins learn how to consistently insta-catch tomes they'll be able to apply pressure at a moment's notice. I've only just got the third method down, the one with the SH. Hard as hell getting the first method down. X_X

Huh. I didn't know Robin could do that. I play with him occasionally and grabbing the tome was always something I struggled with and I often messed up doing it.

The timing seems pretty strict though, but I guess it's something worth practicing in case I ever decide to play Robin competitively.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

They both happen to do pretty bad against Donkey Kong and the Pits imo. Other than that...it sorta works.

Which Mario covers Zelda?

 

[Ikes]

Is it just me or is donkey kong's Kong Cyclone nearly as mindless and powerful as Brawl's Meta Knight's Mach Tornado? Sure most characters can air dodge out of it but on the ground and off the stage these arent always options and it's practically unpunishable because it can send many characters too far away from you at the end to be able to do anything about it.

I'm not saying DK is OP but it's a super silly move

 

[PK Gaming]

Once Robins learn how to consistently insta-catch tomes they'll be able to apply pressure at a moment's notice. I've only just got the third method down, the one with the SH. Hard as hell getting the first method down. X_X

Hopefully

I still feel that Robin still suffers mightily against rushdown, and his worst matchups haven't really worsened all that much. A more reliable kill jab is great, and that new tomb technology is cool, but Sheik and friends still serve his/her ass on a silver platter.

I hope i'm wrong though,I really wanna see the tactician's metagame advance

 

[Firefoxx]

ESAM just annihilated MVD 3-0 in grand finals without tons of heavy skull bash. He has also officially un-retired. And im pretty sure hes going to EVO edit:

 

[Mr. Johan]

Huh. I didn't know Robin could do that. I play with him occasionally and grabbing the tome was always something I struggled with and I often messed up doing it.

The timing seems pretty strict though, but I guess it's something worth practicing in case I ever decide to play Robin competitively.

I could have sworn I did this in our games on SmashLadder, lol (I'm Razor Wind there).

The short hop method is actually quite easy and it becomes second nature after a while. Dtilt -> Short hop -> Z-catch. What you're supposed to get in 60-70 frames, you can get in just 20 or so with this. Arcfire -> Arcfire tome toss is actually legit at some percentages because of the SH catch.


It's the instant, instant pickup that's hard, that one's practically frame perfect.

 

[webbedspace]

ESAM just annihilated MVD 3-0 in grand finals without tons of heavy skull bash. He has also officially un-retired. And im pretty sure hes going to EVO edit:

Where's the kickstarter to send ESAM to EVO

Stretch goal is Megafox

Is it just me or is donkey kong's Kong Cyclone nearly as mindless and powerful as Brawl's Meta Knight's Mach Tornado? Sure most characters can air dodge out of it but on the ground and off the stage these arent always options and it's practically unpunishable because it can send many characters too far away from you at the end to be able to do anything about it.

Who ever uses KC on the ground? And I don't think it's really that good an edgeguarding tool because it usually just hits people upward instead - timing and luck are needed to gently tug people downward.

 

[Nobie]

I think Marth/Lucina get so much out of dancing blade now they just ... don't suck as much.
Robin mains are getting more out of using their jab now too (which kills) and more reliably able to grab tomes for item-play use (those darn things KILL and fly like rockets).

I feel Fire Emblem Tier is dead. But we'll see.

People talked about Robin's "dead zone" right in front of the character. Has the more reliable rapid jab mitigated this?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Where's the kickstarter to send ESAM to EVO

Stretch goal is Megafox


Who ever uses KC on the ground? And I don't think it's really that good an edgeguarding tool because it usually just hits people upward instead - timing and luck are needed to gently tug people downward.

Kong Cyclone is still an excellent edgeguarding tool if your opponent is out of Bair's range. Free damage + unpredictable trajectory > nothing.
Also, the move is completely brainless and if anyone other than DK had it then it would completely break the game. It's worse than the Hoo-hah was, simply because it's a single move that can literally do whatever you want it to whenever you feel like it (spacing, damage racking, KOing, gimping, recovering, Combo breaking, approaching, combo finishing, punishing etc.) and it comes out on like frame 0, AND it autocancels, AND has a wind box the size of 2 Ridleys... the list goes on. But it doesn't make DK OP. What it does is make it pretty much the only thing he has to ever use, like how the Ice Climbers only needed a grab to take a stock. And that sucks! A solid character with a useful kit is way more fun to watch than a flawed character with like 2 good moves. And that's not even the worst part. The other day, I was playing Smashladder friendlies with someone named CaptainZack (who I later found out was at the top of the leaderboards). I was nowhere near this guy's level. He won literally every single game until I brought out Kong Cyclone.

Bottom line: I fear that in EVO people may lose to DKs using this move who are actually not nearly as good as their opponents. Thoughts?

 

[Luco]

It's a great move, but it's not without its flaws. If the cyclone is avoided altogether then DK's still stuck in the ending of upB + helpless, even if he gets the height right and ACs it. The super-armour only comes out on particular frames, so most characters can punish or at least trade with DK over it.

It's a great move, and it certainly does make playing against DK a lot more frustrating because you're constantly on the look-out for the move, but it's nowhere near on the level of IC's CG in regards to over-centralising, as far as I can see.

I've been of this opinion for a long time, but I haven't seen too much of the latest meta, so things may have changed. Seriously, my opinions could well be outdated, if your story is true (though there is something to say for the surprise factor. I had absolutely no idea what I was going up against when I first encountered Kong Cyclone.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Jab -> jab -> usmash isn't guaranteed for Fox on Diddy Kong but the matchup is still kinda even now that Diddy can't kill Fox at fraudulent % anymore. Sheik also has never been the main problem for Fox - Sonic and Yoshi were the ones that would truly beat Fox. With Sonic's back throw being nerfed hard that matchup could be even too now.

4/6: Yoshi
45/55: Sheik, Pikachu, Luigi
5/5: Sonic, Wario, Olimar, Diddy + a bunch of other characters

Mii Brawler has the potential to be a bad matchup for Fox too but I don't have enough exp in that one. Fox is pretty OP.

 

[Diddy Kong]

ZeRo's Diddy will still dominate I predict. I see no reason why people are saying right now Diddy is "Top 10/15" and stuff like that, or "worse than Sheik" while ZeRo isn't doing worse with Diddy at all...

AND DK BEING GOOD NOW REALLY REALLY PLEASES ME!

 

[webbedspace]

But it doesn't make DK OP. What it does is make it pretty much the only thing he has to ever use, like how the Ice Climbers only needed a grab to take a stock.

Kong Cyclone is like a one-hit-kill move - you heard it here first, folks.

A solid character with a useful kit is way more fun to watch than a flawed character with like 2 good moves.

So, what? Without KC, DK is a solid character, but with it he's a flawed character? Are you saying a DK player must throw out all of DK's fundamentals when they get this one move?

Bottom line: I fear that in EVO people may lose to DKs using this move who are actually not nearly as good as their opponents. Thoughts?

People already lose to opponents that are "not nearly as good as" them because of matchup disadvantages, inferior stage knowledge, tournament nerves, et cetera. Overcoming these challenges is also a necessary skill to becoming good at this game. And so it is with KC, a move belonging to a somewhat unpopular character, in only one of the two metagames, that has already been discussed and dissected to death in this and other forums.