Character Competitive Impressions

[TriTails]

Luigi of course has Hoo Haa v2.0,

You act like Hoo Hahnado is a better version of Diddy's original Hoo Hah.

 

[bc1910]

You act like Hoo Hahnado is a better version of Diddy's original Hoo Hah.

Can't tell if you're serious. If you are, stop nitpicking my phraseology. I never acted as such in the slightest.

If you're not, then rest assured I lol'd at Hoo Hahnado.

 

[Megamang]

Can't tell if you're serious. If you are, stop nitpicking my phraseology. I never acted as such in the slightest.

If you're not, then rest assured I lol'd at Hoo Hahnado.

I think he is just saying that it isn't as strong, as 2.0 sometimes implies. Sure it is a reliable kill and HooHah wasn't always, but HooHah alone was a game plan >_<

 

[TriTails]

What is this Hoo Hah v2.0 you are refering? B-air? N-air? Cyclone?

No, I was serious. v2.0 commonly means 'better and upgraded', so I thought that way. To be frank, Hoo Hahnado was nothing compared to the original Hoo Hah. It does not kill as early, nor it is as easy to use.

Your phrase of 'Hoo Hah v2.0' makes the impression that you think Hoo Hahnado (Or any kill move Luigi has that can be setup'd from D-throw in general) is better than Hoo Hah. If you didn't acted that way, then I apologize. But if I may say, you may want to make your phrases more clearly next time.

 

[Antonykun]

it seems i can't go on one month without people crying about my main.
Nothing ever seems good enough. No amount of counter play,starts,tournament performance will ever convince people everywhere to stop complaining about villager.
Like 1.0.4 Diddy got less hate despite him being possibly legitimately broken. But ofcourse you can't have a defensive based character be good without a storm.
sometimes i think it would be a good idea to ban customs so people would shut up about customs villager and while we're at it the miis too I'm sure we'll find a way to complain about them too.

 

[bc1910]

Honestly, give me customs Villy over Heavy Skull Bash any day.

I'm surprised the response to customs Villy ledgecamping is still so negative. Plenty of discussion and video evidence of counterplay has arisen since that tournament. Once again it's probably worth pointing out that ADHD didn't even win that tournament. NinjaLink's tutorials on how to fight customs Villy with any character are very good.

The whole strategy isn't much fun, granted. There's an air of "toxicity" about it and it can grind the game to a standstill. But things like that exist in the vanilla game too.

 

[Nu~]

People will tend to cry about any defensive character that forces the opponent to play the game their way.

I find it both amazing and amusing how people haven't started complaining about mega man yet, when his gameplay is everything that the typical smash fanbase hates.

Remember the reaction to Dabuz at Apex? The hate was so strong, people were rooting for diddy.

 

[Antonykun]

Honestly, give me customs Villy over Heavy Skull Bash any day.

I'm surprised the response to customs Villy ledgecamping is still so negative. Plenty of discussion and video evidence of counterplay has arisen since that tournament. Once again it's probably worth pointing out that ADHD didn't even win that tournament. NinjaLink's tutorials on how to fight customs Villy with any character are very good.

The whole strategy isn't much fun, granted. There's an air of "toxicity" about it and it can grind the game to a standstill. But things like that exist in the vanilla game too.

I kinda wonder if Sonic is a better camper than villager. Even if he was people will go ban customs even though he's still in the game (not trying to spew hate over Sonic)

 

[TriTails]

People will always hate fighting campers/zoners. It's why Dabuz got so much hate (All he does is space/His game is boring. Sounds familiar?)

And if there's anyone complaining about Mega Man, that's me. But that's just because my character gets hard countered by Capcom's robot, so it's about my bias really. But I'm also suprised nobody complains about him.

Or do they still believe that 'Mega Man auto-loses to reflectors'? If that's so, well, facepalm.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Honestly, give me customs Villy over Heavy Skull Bash any day.

I'm surprised the response to customs Villy ledgecamping is still so negative. Plenty of discussion and video evidence of counterplay has arisen since that tournament. Once again it's probably worth pointing out that ADHD didn't even win that tournament. NinjaLink's tutorials on how to fight customs Villy with any character are very good.

The whole strategy isn't much fun, granted. There's an air of "toxicity" about it and it can grind the game to a standstill. But things like that exist in the vanilla game too.

Has NinjaLink put up concise edited clips somewhere? I watched the Twitch VOD today (and took notes) but it's 7 flipping hours long, hardly light viewing.

People will tend to cry about any defensive character that forces the opponent to play the game their way.

I find it both amazing and amusing how people haven't started complaining about mega man yet, when his gameplay is everything that the typical smash fanbase hates.

Remember the reaction to Dabuz at Apex? The hate was so strong, people were rooting for diddy.

I think everyone's still kind of coasting on the "OMG Mega Man in Smash" wave.

 

[Nysyr]

There's defensive play, and then there's play that is clearly toxic. Why do we remove stages like Big Battlefield? Not because of the blastzones, no; it's because you can circle camp.

How you can't call customs villager ledge camping problematic is beyond me.


Also Ninjalinks research is mostly impractical and suggests moves which are clearly dumb. You would never use Snaring Aurasphere vs a Villager for example.

 

[Smog Frog]

how is villagers camping more toxic than sheik needle stuff?

 

[Shaya]

I think like, 90% of people are over Hoo Hah jokes.
Villager does things other character's don't really do, this doesn't bring any widespread frustrations without customs (and the character still produces results without them).
Megaman is by no means an easy or popular character. For him to succeed is a workload people tend to appreciate.

I go to tournaments to support my scene and to help foster growth. I (and most other active players/TOs) would prefer to see things only get bigger and better, the game won't last without taking into consideration mid level players who's continued attendance is oft precarious (by a whole range of things we don't have much control over; initial impressions, low self-esteem and/or frustration). The notion of "majority of people happy and having fun" weighs significantly heavier in my heart than "get better, scrub".

As a mostly still grassroot scene doesn't aptly cover the casual demographic which is required to maintain growth, tournaments are the only means available for most players to engage in competitive smash. For Glory / Wifi ladders / Streaming help, but do so considerably slower and with less success on average than attending events.

 

[TriTails]

What blows me away is on how Mega Man is one of the best character at keeping people away out there yet has FREAKING. FASTEST. GRAB. IN THE. BLEEPING. GAME. (F6)

I mean, look at Villager's or Pac's, their grabs are jokes compared to Mega's.

 

[Ulevo]

I think like, 90% of people are over Hoo Hah jokes.
Villager does things other character's don't really do, this doesn't bring any widespread frustrations without customs (and the character still produces results without them).
Megaman is by no means an easy or popular character. For him to succeed is a workload people tend to appreciate.

I go to tournaments to support my scene and to help foster growth. I (and most other active players/TOs) would prefer to see things only get bigger and better, the game won't last without taking into consideration mid level players who's continued attendance is oft precarious (by a whole range of things we don't have much control over; initial impressions, low self-esteem and/or frustration). The notion of "majority of people happy and having fun" weighs significantly heavier in my heart than "get better, scrub".

As a mostly still grassroot scene doesn't aptly cover the casual demographic which is required to maintain growth, tournaments are the only means available for most players to engage in competitive smash. For Glory / Wifi ladders / Streaming help, but do so considerably slower and with less success on average than attending events.

So you're saying I should go to tourneys, spam Mach Tornado, and win monies?

 

[Nu~]

What blows me away is on how Mega Man is one of the best character at keeping people away out there yet has FREAKING. FASTEST. GRAB. IN THE. BLEEPING. GAME. (F6)

I mean, look at Villager's or Pac's, their grabs are jokes compared to Mega's.

They needed some way to keep his CQC from being terrible

 

[Nobie]

Why wouldn't you pick Snaring Aura Sphere vs. Villager? It not being able to travel as far seems to be a good thing when fighting Villager.

Mega Man's kit is such that many of the established troublesome characters are much less so. He's good at fighting other projectile characters, good at keeping linear approach characters at bay, and good at just forcing characters with poor approaches to sit there and eat lemons. It's why, if you only play Mega Man, hearing about how Luigi or Sonic are these horrible experiences don't quite make sense. Then you switch to anyone else and go, "Ohhhhh that's what they mean."

 

[Nysyr]

Why wouldn't you pick Snaring Aura Sphere vs. Villager? It not being able to travel as far seems to be a good thing when fighting Villager.

Mega Man's kit is such that many of the established troublesome characters are much less so. He's good at fighting other projectile characters, good at keeping linear approach characters at bay, and good at just forcing characters with poor approaches to sit there and eat lemons. It's why, if you only play Mega Man, hearing about how Luigi or Sonic are these horrible experiences don't quite make sense. Then you switch to anyone else and go, "Ohhhhh that's what they mean."

I'll take it that you trust Ninja's every word and didn't bother to test out anything in a real scenario.

But if you want to instantly die to a pocket be my guest and take Snaring. Not like a whole doubles strat wasn't based around it.

 

[Antonykun]

There's defensive play, and then there's play that is clearly toxic. Why do we remove stages like Big Battlefield? Not because of the blastzones, no; it's because you can circle camp.

How you can't call customs villager ledge camping problematic is beyond me.


Also Ninjalinks research is mostly impractical and suggests moves which are clearly dumb. You would never use Snaring Aurasphere vs a Villager for example.

really? toxic? that buzzword tho.
on @ NinjaLink at least he's doing something, he's actually in the lab trying to figure out how to beat the strategy.
Do forgive me for being relatively young to the community but do we really just complain when a relatively new strategy comes out as opposed to learning how to beat it? If so then dang I'm ashamed to be a smasher right now.

 

[Trifroze]

Why wouldn't you pick Snaring Aura Sphere vs. Villager? It not being able to travel as far seems to be a good thing when fighting Villager.

A charged one whether Lucario had aura or not comes out on frame 5 from pocket and kills at 0%.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'll take it that you trust Ninja's every word and didn't bother to test out anything in a real scenario.

But if you want to instantly die to a pocket be my guest and take Snaring. Not like a whole doubles strat wasn't based around it.

What about uncharged Snaring spheres? Surely those don't turn into instant death balls too, do they?

(Also is there a reason it's Snaring Aura Sphere in particular and not default or Piercing Aura Sphere?)

 

[Espy Rose]

Toxic doesn't mean unbeatable, Ant.

 

[Shaya]

So you're saying I should go to tourneys, spam Mach Tornado, and win monies?

It's a hard balance to maintain. If you did that in a friendly at a casual thing then the receiver may be more likely to go "how do I handle this? *dere*" over "oh, I actually don't care about the game much *tsun*".
But during the Brawl days another scene in Aus dealt with that "plague" of everyone either using MK or switching to MK after a loss and it resulted in their attendance fading significantly and practically never recovered, when tournaments go from 80 people down to 20-30 in a few months while our region which had very little MKs grew/maintained it's size for quite a while longer it was something that slowly but surely coerced me away from Sirlin philosophy; nothing else was really noticeably contrasting.

 

[Ulevo]

It's a hard balance to maintain. If you did that in a friendly at a casual thing then the receiver may be more likely to go "how do I handle this? *dere*" over "oh, I actually don't care about the game much *tsun*".
But during the Brawl days another scene in Aus dealt with that "plague" of everyone either using MK or switching to MK after a loss and it resulted in their attendance fading significantly and practically never recovered, when tournaments go from 80 people down to 20-30 in a few months while our region which had very little MKs grew/maintained it's size for quite a while longer it was something that slowly but surely coerced me away from Sirlin philosophy; nothing else was really noticeably contrasting.

You missed the joke.

 

[Blobface]

The problem with Custom Villager's ledge camping isn't really it's power, it's what it does to the other player. It's not broken, but it's an undeniably aggravating tactic, especially to new players who keep the meta healthy.

As someone who wishes all tournaments ran customs all the time, I think that customs on advocates need to understand there's a big difference between "broken and unfair" and "unhealthy for the meta". Just because somethings balanced properly and is beatable doesn't mean it's not painful to deal with. As @ Shaya said, even if something is possible to beat, even if it's completely worthless at a high level, we can't just say "git gud" to mid-level players. That's not healthy in the slightest.

What we need to do if we want everywhere to run customs is show that these tactics are beatable and have exploitable weaknesses. It was recently shown that Sheik could U-air DK while caught in Kong Cyclone, giving her a free punish, which likely means many other characters can too. This kind of info needs to be spread in as friendly a manner as possible. I know it's frustrating to hear people complain about beatable moves/tactics, but getting angry about it won't help anyone.


With that said, in the absolute worst case scenario, we can ban Kong Cyclone and EBT and with just those two all potentially-frustrating customs will be gone. And since I know this will get brought up, banning certain customs does not put customs in an existential crisis. It's goofy and I don't agree to it, but it's not some kind of fundamental contradiction. It seems to me that this idea is a result of some people who touted customs as some kind of "solution to top-tiers" or some kind of "meta-fixer", promoting it as if it removes negative aspects, namely over centralization of the meta on a small group of characters and "jank" present in the default meta.

Customs do not do this.

If we were to ban pre-patch Diddy, that would be removing a negative aspect of the meta. If banning pre-patch Diddy made, I dunno, Jigglypuff insanely overpowered, and we tried to ban her as a result, that would be incredibly contradictory. We'd be removing problems only to create more. But this is not the case with customs. Customs do not "fix" anything. They don't remove any problems. Customs do not remove negative aspects of the meta, they add positive aspects. It's not at all contradictory to add less when you're already adding a lot.

If we added 20 characters to the game in one big package, and 1 could infinite half the cast, what would we do?

 

[Antonykun]

Toxic doesn't mean unbeatable, Ant.

Don't get me wrong I understand that toxic =/= unbeatable but I still see that far more people are simply comfortable with calling villager toxic than with trying to lab around maybe discover something that make the whole camping moot

I think this is as far as I'll go in this discussion as of right now

 

[Shaya]

You missed the joke.

I knew you were joking, but I always have a literal reply waiting

 

[Espy Rose]

Don't get me wrong I understand that toxic =/= unbeatable but I still see that far more people are simply comfortable with calling villager toxic than with trying to lab around maybe discover something that make the whole camping moot

I think this is as far as I'll go in this discussion as of right now

I don't think you understand it because the rest of your post invalidates your claim.

 

[Djent]

BIGGU PUNCHUU!!~

Seriously, don't miss this custom action on VGBC. @DunnoBro making good on his word.
(especially you @ Blobface )

 

[Megamang]

BIGGU PUNCHUU!!~

Seriously, don't miss this custom action on VGBC. @DunnoBro making good on his word.
(especially you @ Blobface )

Every single smash stream says it is offline as soon as it loads for me, does anyone have any idea how to fix this? I really want to have a stream going while i learn DiffyQ.


Also, has anyone seen this yet? Scary stuff for a pika main, or probably anyone with similar physics. And it can probably be adjusted for other chars.

-> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lhj9qOMBfjY <-

 

[thehard]

It was a good run

I think he got too overzealous with those Dropkicks, that MU seems very doable otherwise. Also would have liked to see more U-Smash in neutral, oh well

@ Megamang try beta.twitch.tv?

 

[Megamang]

For some reason only VGBC worked today, and its still working with them hosting so im keeping it.


Do you have a link to the VODs? I missed the ganon stompage. preferably the closest or hypest of the games =P

 

[NinjaLink]

There's defensive play, and then there's play that is clearly toxic. Why do we remove stages like Big Battlefield? Not because of the blastzones, no; it's because you can circle camp.

How you can't call customs villager ledge camping problematic is beyond me.


Also Ninjalinks research is mostly impractical and suggests moves which are clearly dumb. You would never use Snaring Aurasphere vs a Villager for example.

If you were paying attention, it was explained why not to use snaring aura sphere on the spot. I was actually testing everything and not be ignorant about the situation. I dont see you doing anything for the community unless im missing something. Please show me what you have done. I would like to know.

really? toxic? that buzzword tho.
on @ NinjaLink at least he's doing something, he's actually in the lab trying to figure out how to beat the strategy.
Do forgive me for being relatively young to the community but do we really just complain when a relatively new strategy comes out as opposed to learning how to beat it? If so then dang I'm ashamed to be a smasher right now.

The fact I even have to do it because others are too lazy to do it for themselves is an issue. I'm not a butler to clean up others problems. I dealt with this strat before ADHD shown it on stream months ago. I never lost to it. I too am ashamed to be huddled with these whiners called smashers.

 

[Megamang]

snip.

Don't let it get to you, most of angry comments at your video being bad advice are probably due to people losing to a villager and being super salty and wanting to lash out. Before anyone says it, yes you can try and improve stuff and criticize, im speaking strictly about angry comments.


Forums in general are places where people to go complain. After all, if they don't have any problems with villager they aren't likely to complain since it doesn't bother them, and also why would they discourage what is essentially a free win in a bracket.

My point is that you seem to be souring at peoples responses and I wanted to say that your videos are helping people, and please realize your efforts are appreciated and should be emulated by other; if they disagree with the execution they should at least emulate the effort and time commitment.

 

[Nysyr]

Has nothing to do with that. Apart from testing in a sterile environment; I get the impression he is trying to justify including said villager customs into the meta.

So basically you want the same kind of jank that led to ledge grab limits in Brawl.

I don't know what to say to you man.

 

[NinjaLink]

Don't let it get to you, most of angry comments at your video being bad advice are probably due to people losing to a villager and being super salty and wanting to lash out. Before anyone says it, yes you can try and improve stuff and criticize, im speaking strictly about angry comments.


Forums in general are places where people to go complain. After all, if they don't have any problems with villager they aren't likely to complain since it doesn't bother them, and also why would they discourage what is essentially a free win in a bracket.

My point is that you seem to be souring at peoples responses and I wanted to say that your videos are helping people, and please realize your efforts are appreciated and should be emulated by other; if they disagree with the execution they should at least emulate the effort and time commitment.

I wish it was 2007 when this site was more enjoyable lol

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

There's defensive play, and then there's play that is clearly toxic. Why do we remove stages like Big Battlefield? Not because of the blastzones, no; it's because you can circle camp.

How you can't call customs villager ledge camping problematic is beyond me.


Also Ninjalinks research is mostly impractical and suggests moves which are clearly dumb. You would never use Snaring Aurasphere vs a Villager for example.

You could also try my suggestion I posted over a month ago. Villager is repeatedly grabbing the ledge. Go directly next to the ledge. When you see Villager start up Explosive Balloon Trip, start charging dsmash. Release just as Villager grabs ledge (this is super easy to do on reaction if you are even decent as a smash player). You'll stage spike Villager and deal more than double the damage to Villager than you'll take from the balloons; you can do this all day and will win every time. This works with almost every character; a few like Ganon and Falcon have dsmashes that hit too high on their bodies and have to rely on other moves (dtilts and dairs with some semblance of timing are also easy money). There are many character specific options that are even better, but if you can't be bothered to investigate, my simple suggestion is enough to make you never lose to this.

Custom Villager ledgestalling is only a problem in the sense that it's a problem for the person using it as it will prevent that person from winning any games against knowledgeable opponents. Literally the only reason anyone has ever lost to this is not knowing the easy things to do to crush this very inferior tactic. I feel like I'm in the twilight zone with every discussion on this topic as people talk about how it's so unhealthy for the game, but is it really unhealthy for the game that there's some element in it that frustrates people who simply don't know what to do? Are we at the point as a community where we expect all players to have zero knowledge and decide what is and isn't okay based on that? I know there's a limit to the attitude of "get better scrub", but it feels like people aren't even trying to beat this tactic and are instead resorting to johning about it on smashboards as a primary line of defense.

I just... don't even know what to do with this at this point.

 

[Pyr]

Be the change you wish for. Over time, people will follow you. Else, how can you be different then those who make this site unenjoyable for you?

 

[RaptorTEC]

I don't actually know for sure whether that's the case or not either. Yoshidora may have beaten somebody decent at some early wifi tournament during the 3DS days or something but that's the only time I think he ever did something. Slice taking a match off Mr.r's Sheik is probably the biggest achievement a Yoshi player has reached so far.

This is late but I have tournament wins on Dabuz, 6WX, Vinne, denti and more if you wanna count high level players too. I still think Yoshi is 10th-12th at best though. Might drop more when people start realizing his flaws.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Wait, people are still complaining about Villager ledgestalling?

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone with every discussion on this topic as people talk about how it's so unhealthy for the game, but is it really unhealthy for the game that there's some element in it that frustrates people who simply don't know what to do? Are we at the point as a community where we expect all players to have zero knowledge and decide what is and isn't okay based on that? I know there's a limit to the attitude of "get better scrub", but it feels like people aren't even trying to beat this tactic and are instead resorting to johning about it on smashboards as a primary line of defense.

I just... don't even know what to do with this at this point.

QFT.

Villager ledgestalling is beatable. It's not even good. Most of the cast has easy options against it. If your opponent is banking on that, just counterpick one of the dozen characters who can trivially snipe him off the ledge. Pick pikachu and press B a lot. Pick Little Mac and sit there and Dsmash all day. This is not some unbeatable superstrategy that needs extra consideration and bans. This is a weak strategy that beats people who don't know how to fight it. That's all there is to it.

Hey guys, here's how you handle villager ledgestalling from a community perspective. Spend an hour learning what options your character and other common characters have to beat it, then whenever you see it at a local, go up to the player fighting it after round one and tell them what to do. The community gets better, the problem is generally resolved, and people aren't total scrubs.