Character Competitive Impressions

[Zorai]

Hmmm, certain chars being able to counter certain "broken" strategies due to their unique movesets and attributes?

SMELLS LIKE METAGAME TO ME!!!!

This might be out of context, but people still don't want to accept the fact that you need to be able to use at least 3-4 characters in order to compete in Smash 4. Unless you main Sheik. Then you might get by for a while, until a bad matchup actually develops against her, which will happen at some point.

 

[ZarroTsu]

This might be out of context, but people still don't want to accept the fact that you need to be able to use at least 3-4 characters in order to compete in Smash 4. Unless you main Sheik. Then you might get by for a while, until a bad matchup actually develops against her, which will happen at some point.

I will forever speculate that the top-tier characters are only up there because nobody cares to push the low-tier characters enough for the MUs to develop.

Dead horse beating: Mii Sword and Gunner have very good MUs against certain top-teirs; Diddy and Rosa (I think?) respectively. Does anyone really care? Nah, too much work.

For Sheik? Unless there's footage of a Charizard getting irrefutably owned by one at the same skill level, I think Char can take her. Jiggs and Kirby for float and size. Can G&W get in too? Possibly, by virtue of his weird moveset, and there's always the [9] to worry about.

Footnote: I have no hands-on idea (except Mii Sword vs Diddy); those are purely speculation.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Where does the idea come from that Charizard stands a chance against Sheik?

 

[Spinosaurus]

Where does the idea come from that Charizard stands a chance against Sheik?

Trela winning against Denti in that one 3DS tournament with Charizard, I'm guessing. :V

 

[NegaNixx]

Where does the idea come from that Charizard stands a chance against Sheik?

I think he's trying to say that there's not a lot if any people trying to push the character to find the answer. Using the match up as a theoretical example.

If he's theorycrafting... Rock Hurl Super Armour for the win!

 

[Kofu]

Well,it depens on whether Villager can pocket Oil Panic. If he can Villager's going up to SS tier.

the PK disjoints might not hurt too much unless he's got the balloons,in which case pop em and that stock is RIP.

G&W's dair has a meteor sweetspot and if you get it villager's basically done.

Fire hydrant is code for RIP when your in the air(especially Dire Hydrant)

Oil Panic is a disjoint and cannot be reflected, absorbed, or pocketed. I'd be careful with Fire Hydrants, though. Villager can pocket them and increase their power drastically when launched (though if Pac-Man gets there before Villager does it can be turned against him).

 

[Blobface]

There is an unfathomable amount of untapped potential in literally every character in the game. I have yet to see anyone really take advantage of stuff like Footstools and Ground bounces, and I think those both have a lot of potential.

I feel there's even more untapped potential in underused customs, like Heavy Raptor Boost. I have yet to see any Captain Falcon's use it, and with full rage it kills at 56%. @ Trifroze , am I missing something? There are some custom sets with it, and It's not like Raptor Boost is a pivotal move anyway.

 

[Firefoxx]

There is an unfathomable amount of untapped potential in literally every character in the game. I have yet to see anyone really take advantage of stuff like Footstools and Ground bounces, and I think those both have a lot of potential.

I feel there's even more untapped potential in underused customs, like Heavy Raptor Boost. I have yet to see any Captain Falcon's use it, and with full rage it kills at 56%. @ Trifroze , am I missing something? There are some custom sets with it, and It's not like Raptor Boost is a pivotal move anyway.

You can block Heavy Raptor Boost *on hit.* Falcon travels very slowly towards his opponent and when he reaches them he has a weird wind-up animation on his uppercut before he attempts to erase his opponent from existence. You can wait for that little hitch in the animation and block it as that animation represents the no damage, no hitstun windbox present on every version of Raptor Boost. Its trivially easy to perfect shield and the end lag is immense. It does have super armor, which is a bit of a saving grace for the move, but it's essentially just Falcon Punch with a different animation.

Edit: It also travels so slowly and goes such a short distance that you may as well just f-smash which kills at like mid 70's with max rage.

 

[PUK]

Falcon kick electric version though seems funny. It can combo into Usmash and the grounded version is usuable.

 

[Trifroze]

Pretty much that, it's one of those moves that's just too slow to almost ever be useful. I think it's like 40 frames from start to hitbox if you do it from fsmash range. If it had superarmor the entire way and ate 90% of shields like DK's side b it could be useful.

The electric Falcon Kick can stun the opponent with the landing shockwave hitbox (which is tiny), but it's literally safer to just throw out a knee as you land.

There's some untapped potential to Falcon though and things people don't know yet, I'm making a proper guide about his combos and stuff right now and it should be ready in a few days unless I keep being lazy.

 

[Asdioh]

SPEAKING of eating shields, does anybody know why getup attacks do SO MUCH shield damage? Idk if this is unrelated, but it's interesting! They don't really do that much damage, right?

 

[thehard]

I would imagine it's to dissuade running up to fallen opponents and shielding. It's too safe an option otherwise.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

You won't be charging up any dsmashes when there's a trip sapling directly under you while you're being bombarded with lloyds and pellets and all your projectiles are being pocketed. At which point did everyone start ignoring 3/4 of what makes this strat so good? Exploding balloons are hardly a problem and we all know this, it's the rest of Villager's customs and moves in conjunction with it that makes his ledgestalling so difficult to deal with.

A player who isn't just a test dummy will think and actually do things and he certainly won't brainlessly let you charge up moves on the ledge. He'll either time his stalling properly and shoot you off, cover himself with lloyd / trip sapling / both, or explode the balloons earlier so that only you take damage. The only ways to beat him are to retain the percent lead forcing him to approach, outcamp him (good luck with that one though) or have a dangerous enough offstage game to take his stock in one move, although even that is risky and requires a mistake on Villager's part.

I'm assuming you're paying attention while breaking the stall. When does the trip sapling get planted and why didn't you contest it? When it wears off, how is Villager re-planting it? Villager has to stand on the stage and commit to a long animation to plant a sapling; stalling on the ledge does nothing to enable this. When Villager is starting EBT from below the plane of the stage, how is he using Lloid or the slingshot? If Villager jumps above the plane of the stage, how does the opponent not perfectly predict that either Lloid or slingshot is coming and just powershield or do anything else that stuffs the telegraphed option? Villager has zero other options if he moves into position to slingshot or Lloid.

Also at this point you're basically arguing that if Villager plays a full, dynamic keep-away game he can succeed. Uh, sure. What's the problem? Villager is designed from the ground up to be a defensive character. There's nothing wrong with this; gameplay diversity is about all types of characters. He happens to be the best of the defensive characters (this is true even if you ban customs, incidentally). If he is doing a variety of skillful defensive zoning actions, many of which involve substantial on-stage gameplay, it just doesn't count as ledge stalling.

Honestly it's really hard to win with him since for all of his strengths his weaknesses are quite large too (can easily get stuck with poorly allocated resources, has substantial kill move trouble). Villager's whole game involves being a step ahead of his opponent, having the sapling ready and well places, being at the right height to use the right zoning move, doing the below the stage EBTs when the opponent isn't in position to just charge down smash. There is no algorithmic tactic that produces easy wins for Villager; he has to outwit his opponent to stand a chance.

Let's do a walk-through of the following common situation. Villager has just grabbed the ledge and is running 1322 as a custom set. What do you do?

1. Is a Timber Counter sapling down and near the ledge he's holding? If yes, stay somewhat near the ledge, powershield any projectiles (from the ledge, the timing is really predictable so this is not hard), and wait out the lifetime of the sapling. Stay close enough to fsmash on reaction the planting of a new one if Villager tries to be in position to plant a new one right as the current one expires. If no or if you've now waited it out and Villager is still on the ledge move to step two.

2. Watch how Villager moves off the ledge.

a. If Villager drops low, he has no options but to use EBT to recover to the ledge. Simply walk over to the ledge and start charging dsmash for easy money. Do watch if previous balloons are in the way, but their trajectories are random so eventually they won't be well positioned. Villager exploding the balloons early prevents ledge grabs so this won't protect him.

b. If Villager pops high, he's looking to fire a projectile. His only two options are Pushy Lloid or the slingshot. The slingshot will come at a super predictable timing and is easily powershielded. Lloid is more imposing but also more committed; you can generally roll past it on reaction. Even if your reactions are poor, you input a powershield timing shield for the slingshot and hit toward the ledge to roll when you see the rocket so no guessing required. Now Villager has no defenses between you and him and is falling to the ledge which he can grab with zero invincibility. Do some kind of offensive mix-up here (or punish the grab if you have time which will sometimes happen), and you're massively favored.

If you follow this, you see that waiting on the ledge only pays off for Villager if you either stand too far back (and thus let him plant saplings uncontested which you should never do) or if you get impatient and run into his stuff. He has no way to actually do damage to you and is stuck in a super option limited position. Smarter Villager players will only use the ledge as necessary to escape other undesirable pressure situations and will mostly try to control the stage and play a more dynamic zoning game... which is "playing the game" and is not abusive. Trying to outcamp him is mostly a poor strategy anyway; sure if you have a lead don't approach without good reason. In general though, Villager suffocates under strong offensive pressure; he needs time and space to set up his game.

I do want to be clear that I don't disagree with the assertion "Villager is a generally good character who has a very defensive playstyle" since that's true. I disagree with assertions that he's inherently abusive since to me an abusive character must play in a simple or algorithmic way which Villager just can't do and still win games. When we start talking about a character who spends a lot of the time on the stage and who uses a wide variety of moves to appropriately respond to situations or to dynamically set up complex spatial control, sure, this is a good character, but it's not what I'm arguing against since by definition a Villager who does all of this is doing a lot more than ledge stalling.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I always thought get up attacks didnt have invincibility. I would have hoped they didnt.

 

[ZarroTsu]

RE: Heavy Raptor Boost: Use it out of a jab reset to insta-KO?

I wonder how many moves become extremely viable when your opponent can't do anything to stop them?

 

[Shaya]

So you've made the assumption that the villager in question won't be managing the timer of his trip sappling themselves and will 100% of the time retreat to the ledge if they are in danger of being "fsmashed on reaction" for planting another one (yeah... like villager is going to plant another one right in front of the enemy...). Let's not forget that the first "choosing not to plant the sappling" will be Villager having ledge invincibility. For Kofu/others wondering, MikeKirby tried to go for meteor stones, but FAILED miserably, he got hit (up airs/nairs/fairs), otherwise it was very telegraphed so CptAwesome just rolled on stage with invincibility.

"wait out the lifetime of the sapling" is you kinda nullifying your entire explanation (or more so deciding to ignore what is the focal point of frustration / why people are calling for LGLs/bans).
Am I understanding you correctly your definition of "abusive" is not the situation it creates being binary (or feasibly unary for some characters) but rather "their inputs aren't binary, so it's not abusive"?

At the very least this isn't like Brawl, the characters with projectiles that can go downwards or whatever (Pikachu's thunder jolt, Sheik's grenades) allow a nearly no-risk means of pressuring villager near/on a ledge.

 

[Nabbitnator]

RE: Heavy Raptor Boost: Use it out of a jab reset to insta-KO?

I wonder how many moves become extremely viable when your opponent can't do anything to stop them?

Moves like palutena's jab up smash become extremely viable, zss's jab up b. Silly things become silly when you dont know how to stop or get out of stuff.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Where does the idea come from that Charizard stands a chance against Sheik?

Dragon Rush.

Seriously, everything good said about Charizard should begin and end with Dragon Rush. This move alone could make him jump tiers above his non-custom self. After playing Dragon Rush Charizard, it's hard to go back to Flare Blitz...

 

[Radical Larry]

Aside from bodying a fellow Ganondorf player (who was really good, similar to a competitive player) into a Zero-to-Death combo string of D-Throw > U-Air > Dash > U-Air > U-Air > F-Air, I've had a fun time. It worked well and some characters can be stringed into it.

 

[KenMeister]

Aside from bodying a fellow Ganondorf player (who was really good, similar to a competitive player) into a Zero-to-Death combo string of D-Throw > U-Air > Dash > U-Air > U-Air > F-Air, I've had a fun time. It worked well and some characters can be stringed into it.

Sounds like your opponent doesn't know DI.

 

[Trifroze]

I'm assuming you're paying attention while breaking the stall. When does the trip sapling get planted and why didn't you contest it? When it wears off, how is Villager re-planting it? Villager has to stand on the stage and commit to a long animation to plant a sapling; stalling on the ledge does nothing to enable this. When Villager is starting EBT from below the plane of the stage, how is he using Lloid or the slingshot? If Villager jumps above the plane of the stage, how does the opponent not perfectly predict that either Lloid or slingshot is coming and just powershield or do anything else that stuffs the telegraphed option? Villager has zero other options if he moves into position to slingshot or Lloid.

Also at this point you're basically arguing that if Villager plays a full, dynamic keep-away game he can succeed. Uh, sure. What's the problem? Villager is designed from the ground up to be a defensive character. There's nothing wrong with this; gameplay diversity is about all types of characters. He happens to be the best of the defensive characters (this is true even if you ban customs, incidentally). If he is doing a variety of skillful defensive zoning actions, many of which involve substantial on-stage gameplay, it just doesn't count as ledge stalling.

Honestly it's really hard to win with him since for all of his strengths his weaknesses are quite large too (can easily get stuck with poorly allocated resources, has substantial kill move trouble). Villager's whole game involves being a step ahead of his opponent, having the sapling ready and well places, being at the right height to use the right zoning move, doing the below the stage EBTs when the opponent isn't in position to just charge down smash. There is no algorithmic tactic that produces easy wins for Villager; he has to outwit his opponent to stand a chance.

Let's do a walk-through of the following common situation. Villager has just grabbed the ledge and is running 1322 as a custom set. What do you do?

1. Is a Timber Counter sapling down and near the ledge he's holding? If yes, stay somewhat near the ledge, powershield any projectiles (from the ledge, the timing is really predictable so this is not hard), and wait out the lifetime of the sapling. Stay close enough to fsmash on reaction the planting of a new one if Villager tries to be in position to plant a new one right as the current one expires. If no or if you've now waited it out and Villager is still on the ledge move to step two.

2. Watch how Villager moves off the ledge.

a. If Villager drops low, he has no options but to use EBT to recover to the ledge. Simply walk over to the ledge and start charging dsmash for easy money. Do watch if previous balloons are in the way, but their trajectories are random so eventually they won't be well positioned. Villager exploding the balloons early prevents ledge grabs so this won't protect him.

b. If Villager pops high, he's looking to fire a projectile. His only two options are Pushy Lloid or the slingshot. The slingshot will come at a super predictable timing and is easily powershielded. Lloid is more imposing but also more committed; you can generally roll past it on reaction. Even if your reactions are poor, you input a powershield timing shield for the slingshot and hit toward the ledge to roll when you see the rocket so no guessing required. Now Villager has no defenses between you and him and is falling to the ledge which he can grab with zero invincibility. Do some kind of offensive mix-up here (or punish the grab if you have time which will sometimes happen), and you're massively favored.

If you follow this, you see that waiting on the ledge only pays off for Villager if you either stand too far back (and thus let him plant saplings uncontested which you should never do) or if you get impatient and run into his stuff. He has no way to actually do damage to you and is stuck in a super option limited position. Smarter Villager players will only use the ledge as necessary to escape other undesirable pressure situations and will mostly try to control the stage and play a more dynamic zoning game... which is "playing the game" and is not abusive. Trying to outcamp him is mostly a poor strategy anyway; sure if you have a lead don't approach without good reason. In general though, Villager suffocates under strong offensive pressure; he needs time and space to set up his game.

I do want to be clear that I don't disagree with the assertion "Villager is a generally good character who has a very defensive playstyle" since that's true. I disagree with assertions that he's inherently abusive since to me an abusive character must play in a simple or algorithmic way which Villager just can't do and still win games. When we start talking about a character who spends a lot of the time on the stage and who uses a wide variety of moves to appropriately respond to situations or to dynamically set up complex spatial control, sure, this is a good character, but it's not what I'm arguing against since by definition a Villager who does all of this is doing a lot more than ledge stalling.

You have three kinds of projectiles flying at you from different angles: balloons from under the stage and shots and rockets from two different vertical levels in front of you. You're already at a disadvantage having to commit to shielding giving Villager time to set up or reset his invincibility only to keep doing the same thing. As soon as you get hit by anything or Villager has managed to set up momentarily with his projectiles, he has enough time to plant a free sapling (takes much less than a second). Even if you create a situation in which you can potentially punish his ledge regrab, he can instead just opt to reset his invincibility with little risk as soon as you come too close.

If he doesn't, he still has his second jump + aerials and the coin flip between hovering near the ledge without grabbing it making you have to guess whether he grabs it or explodes the balloons on you. You will never actually react to Villager grabbing the ledge while also finding enough time to dsmash before Villager chooses his next option, there just literally isn't enough time for that. It's a guessing game where most characters are at a disadvantage because they lack tools to cover enough of Villager's options or pose enough threat to make one correct guess count as a stock.

 

[Asdioh]

At the very least, we can agree that the tripping sapling has the least counterplay out of anything in SSB4 right? (I can't say "in smash history" because things like Brawl Mach Tornado exist)

And even though I'm sure AA is at least partially right, since he has a lot of experience against this, all it takes is getting hit by one pushy lloid or exploding balloon, or anything at high percents, and they have enough knockback to allow Villager to climb back onstage and replant that sapling.

 

[Radical Larry]

Sounds like your opponent doesn't know DI.

It was a competent Ganondorf player actually. They knew how to DI, but they were just in hitstun during the amount of time it hit them. A U-Air > Dash Attack > U-Air does cause some things to happen alone.

 

[Shaya]

At the very least, we can agree that the tripping sapling has the least counterplay out of anything in SSB4 right? (I can't say "in smash history" because things like Brawl Mach Tornado exist)

Well, transcended priority moves beat tornado, invincibility moves out of shield beat tornado (but in Marth's case, hitting the shield at the highest height possible would allow tornado to still win/at worse trade with marth dealing with RCO [at the very least it could often result in vertical sweetspot which could kill at around 120%; this was virtually the only way I could ever got kills on MKs at Tyrant/M2K/Nairo's level punishing gliding or tornado]), [power] shielding into a late spot dodge was very effective at handling overzealous shield pressure. Light tapping of the shield into a retreat on the other hand? Awkward, game mostly died before seeing the adaption to that (you kinda need godlike reaction speed to deal with this... a few consider it the zenith of tornado stupidity).
Even if not the case in practice (having that much time to punish), Tornado had 30 frames of end lag no matter the scenario, with a failed auto cancel throwing another 30 frames on top of that. Players could fall out of it, even if it was not consistent (any form of staled tornado reducing hit lag to low enough where SDI did not count [apparently]); testing Mew2King and I did years back came to a [possibly confirmation bias thing] that trying to mash/SDI/jump/AD out will sometimes get you out... somehow, while doing nothing, well, does nothing.

Also grounded tornado clanked with just about everything (ironically giving MK enough frame advantage against the likes of Snake's up tilt for a guaranteed down smash, lol). Aerial tornado obviously requiring MK to be in the air.

Trip Sapling counter play is "wait 16 seconds", "don't let them get it out there" or be a character which functions with that degree of stage zoning in mind (projectiles, etc), at least of what we currently understand of the move (counterplay for tornado took YEARS to develop, to be fair). The way Tornado functions with MK now in Smash 4 (when it hits an object/shield you lose a significant amount of maneuverability/control) was apparently how it was programmed to be in Brawl but was bugged (I didn't really ever learn if this was truly the case though).

 

[Kofu]

SPEAKING of eating shields, does anybody know why getup attacks do SO MUCH shield damage? Idk if this is unrelated, but it's interesting! They don't really do that much damage, right?

No, they do extra shield damage. I heard from a Shulk main that Buster GUA can break shields.

 

[HeavyLobster]

It was a competent Ganondorf player actually. They knew how to DI, but they were just in hitstun during the amount of time it hit them. A U-Air > Dash Attack > U-Air does cause some things to happen alone.

No way anyone is going to be in hitstun for all that. You have to read their landing, potential djs/airdodges/attacks, recovery etc. to pull something like that off. All those options for escape do have their own risks of course and can be baited and punished, so your opponent isn't necessarily incompetent for getting hit. That doesn't mean that that string would be reliable at all, and the whole thing isn't something you'll land consistently on someone who mixes up their escape options well. Ganondorf's also more vulnerable to that sort of thing than most characters anyway, and it's not too uncommon to pull off longer strings in the Ganon ditto, but they're generally not guaranteed even there. You can often string together 2-3 hits with decent consistency, but beyond that you'll have to read your opponent well most of the time, because they can get out if they know what you're going to do.

 

[Blobface]

I can't help but feel we're forgetting that Villager doesn't have to play one way. Villager doesn't get glued to the ledge the moment he decides to use this strategy. Captawsum is not a favorite player of mine, but when Vinnie broke through his camping, he wasn't completely gutted. He still lost, but he put up a fight. He actually played.

I can't help but wonder: if a Villager tried to ledge camp, got bopped as a result, then played normally for the rest of the set and won, what would we think?

 

[Antonykun]

I can't help but feel we're forgetting that Villager doesn't have to play one way. Villager doesn't get glued to the ledge the moment he decides to use this strategy. Captawsum is not a favorite player of mine, but when Vinnie broke through his camping, he wasn't completely gutted. He still lost, but he put up a fight. He actually played.

I can't help but wonder: if a Villager tried to ledge camp, got bopped as a result, then played normally for the rest of the set and won, what would we think?

ban customs obviously
anyhows I play Swordfighter and i see he has potential for a lot of combos i think @san. said something about a 60%(!) combo.

 

[Blobface]

ban customs obviously
anyhows I play Swordfighter and i see he has potential for a lot of combos i think @san. said something about a 60%(!) combo.

I personally don't support any sort of rule change to deal with this custom, but if we absolutely had to, what would you prefer to be done about it?

Also, does anyone know at about how far into the stream @DunnoBro had his Ganon matches? I gotta see his Dark Fists in action.

 

[Shaya]

I can't help but feel we're forgetting that Villager doesn't have to play one way. Villager doesn't get glued to the ledge the moment he decides to use this strategy. Captawsum is not a favorite player of mine, but when Vinnie broke through his camping, he wasn't completely gutted. He still lost, but he put up a fight. He actually played.

I can't help but wonder: if a Villager tried to ledge camp, got bopped as a result, then played normally for the rest of the set and won, what would we think?

In my mind, knowing that Villager already succeeds (especially in Japan) with customs off gives me very little reason for my perspective changing with that happening. I didn't really consider Captain Awesome "not playing" when he was up against others he defeated either, he had to change style once Vinnie started using gravity grenade.. basically (Will messaged him that coaching )

 

[Unknownkid]

In my mind, knowing that Villager already succeeds (especially in Japan) with customs off gives me very little reason for my perspective changing with that happening. I didn't really consider Captain Awesome "not playing" when he was up against others he defeated either, he had to change style once Vinnie started using gravity grenade.. basically (Will messaged him that coaching )

Wait... did Vinnie switch back to Gravity Grenade after the first set? I mute the stream to hear what Ninja Link was proclaiming.

 

[Blobface]

Found @DunnoBro's Ganon sets and I'd just like to say thank you for showing the world the power of custom Ganon. I laughed so hard when one of the commentators called Dark Fists the "WMD Punch".

 

[Radical Larry]

No way anyone is going to be in hitstun for all that. You have to read their landing, potential djs/airdodges/attacks, recovery etc. to pull something like that off. All those options for escape do have their own risks of course and can be baited and punished, so your opponent isn't necessarily incompetent for getting hit. That doesn't mean that that string would be reliable at all, and the whole thing isn't something you'll land consistently on someone who mixes up their escape options well. Ganondorf's also more vulnerable to that sort of thing than most characters anyway, and it's not too uncommon to pull off longer strings in the Ganon ditto, but they're generally not guaranteed even there. You can often string together 2-3 hits with decent consistency, but beyond that you'll have to read your opponent well most of the time, because they can get out if they know what you're going to do.

They tried recovering once, but it's almost unnoticeable since my F-Air hit frame 1.
I hit him from the beginning of the stage, and somehow ended up hitting him to the other side of the stage and into a KO.

It happened like this: I used D-Throw to set up for a U-Air, which caused them to go and flinch. I then used Dash, which made them flinch again, but go high enough to let me hit them into stun with another U-Air. I then ran and used another U-Air, double jump and then finally end it with F-Air. All the way across the stage, mind you. The person did everything to try and get away, with proper DI and everything, but I managed to read everything (like you said I had to do) that they did, even their recovery.

I know it's not a consistent thing, but if anything can happen, it probably will happen.
Remember, this is the same game where an airborne Reverse Warlock Punch can deal 42% damage and can instantly KO you.

 

[Blobface]

Also, has anyone seen this yet? Scary stuff for a pika main, or probably anyone with similar physics. And it can probably be adjusted for other chars.

-> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lhj9qOMBfjY <-

While Nair-Footstool could be an applicable setup on every character for a lot of things, doing it that many times in a row without ever missing an input is implausible.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja has a ton of Footstool true combos that can lead to a ridiculous amount of damage.

If Greninja mains master that I'm pretty sure Greninja is going to become a real combo monster in this meta, especially because most footstool setups begins with N-Air which is already his main combo move anyway.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

How are Diddy's peanuts against a ledge camping villager? Can Diddy hit Villager through the balloons enough take the lead back and shut down the camping?

Obviously plucking bananas at him won't really work because exploding balloons and pocket. Trying to chase him offstage seems like a bad idea as Diddy as well. Peanuts however are very spammable and fall at an angle that might be able to hit him as he hides on the ledge. Anyone have any experience with this matchup?

 

[Earthboundy]

I started picking up Jigglypuff a lot more and I feel as if she is over looked. She can handle campy characters by out spacing their projectiles.

 

[wedl!!]

i'll try to test if peanuts can hit in ebt, i've never played the mu before so idk.

I started picking up Jigglypuff a lot more and I feel as if she is over looked. She can handle campy characters by out spacing their projectiles.

is in the "i don't know how this character works" tier just like

 

[Smog Frog]

people at least have enough of a semblance of how works to know they are high tier, but they all have some form of high-level rep. literally the only rep i can think of for is serynder lol

 

[webbedspace]

I find it a little cute and sad that Hungrybox often rolls up to his native regional with Smash 4 Jiggly and inevitably ends up knocked out in Loser's Quarters.