Character Competitive Impressions

[Luigi player]

Spoilers:

Sheik, Rosa, Luigi, Ness (iirc), Diddy in that order.

He mentions a few times that it's not supposed to be a tierlist (order). Pretty interesting though. Although I doubt Luigi is that high and Fox is kinda missing up there. Ness is really good, but I don't think that good... but who knows.

Imo Sheik, Rosa, Fox, Diddy, Sonic, ZSS, Pikachu are still the top. With Ness close after and then there's Yoshi, CF, Mario, Luigi, (Megaman/Wario/Villager/Pit,) ...
I tried to order it in which I think it could be, but it's with guessing. I still have no idea what we can say about Diddy right now and Rosalina kinda only has Dabuz who I haven't seen lately and Pikachu kinda needs ESAMs results to show how good it is. But overall these look like the strongest characters right now.

My list is without customs btw.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Spoilers:

Sheik, Rosa, Luigi, Ness (iirc), Diddy in that order.

Why Ness? What's so good about him? Isn't Brawler better? Edit: And Fox and Yoshi? Ness seems like the odd one out in that top 5 list.

What does Zero and m2k think about custom Palutena, anyone know?

Edit2: and yeah Pikachu as well! Does Ness really have results to warrant a top 5 spot? :S

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Why Ness? What's so good about him? Isn't Brawler better? Edit: And Fox and Yoshi? Ness seems like the odd one out in that top 5 list.

What does Zero and m2k think about custom Palutena, anyone know?

I've been asking people what's so good about Ness for months I mostly get back throw for an answer.....

I'd subtract ness and add pikachu to his top5.

 

[Trifroze]

Yes, but the Punch is far better than the Blade due to the fact it does everything it can (except range and speed), but better. It's an attack that isn't a library card's worth of reads, it is the National Library of Reading the opponent. It takes one flip-up from the opponent, a broken shield or a laggy attack that misses (or phantom hits) for this to really work.

Warlock punch takes longer than a second to hit after executing it. On a medium or high level of competence, you will never ever punish anything with it and you will never ever read anything with it. Even if you could literally see the future, you couldn't connect with that move because players simply don't make commitments that are long enough to be punished by something like that. If they do, it's because they actually aren't good players or weren't playing seriously. Ganondorf's neutral b is a competitively useless move, same as Falcon's, and doesn't deserve this much discussion over it. Whether it's better or worse than Warlock Blade, they're both fundamentally terrible moves, just the latter is a tiny bit more likely to sometimes connect because of its increased speed and range.

Those few times that you manage to break a shield in a competitive match with Ganondorf you will practically always get the kill by pushing them as close to the ledge as possible and charging up fsmash or using utilt, or charging up sweetspot usmash if they're on a platform.

 

[Firefoxx]

ZeRo's entire argument about Ness seems to revolve around his opinion that shields are OP in this game. Ness has the best kill throw and a pretty good grab game, so he's automatically one of the best characters. I also think this stems from m2k playing (and losing?) against Shaky's Ness about a month ago and then declaring him to be top 3.

Edit: I would imagine his opinion on Luigi comes from a similar place

 

[deepseadiva]

Jump Glide is a bad move.
Seriously, AeroLink dies once per set because of 's fall speed. OTOH, Warp would let him recover in most of the scenarios where Jump Glide is successful. Its approach/cross-up gimmicks also don't work against competent mid-range spacing (as Bwett was saying earlier on commentary).

Jump Glide is a powerful recovery in that it allows Palutena to completely dodge the ledge. IMO that's HUGE. Avoiding that disadvantaged situation is really useful. I'm not bought on how some players use it to approach and fly into opponents on stage... but a recovery you can act out of without landing lag will always be GOOD. I would never call it a bad move.

Warp is very good as well. Teleports will always be excellent.

 

[bc1910]

I also think Ness is far too high. Bthrow is not good enough to make him better than Diddy, Pikachu, Fox, Sonic and maybe others. Dthrow is overrated, DI away and that thing stops comboing very early. Nair randomly gets kills? Can't remember the last time that happened especially not OoS. He's a very solid character but others are still better.

Luigi is also not top 5. That character has serious mobility issues and is susceptible to being zoned or simply people running away from him. And fireballs might be safe but they don't have high shieldstun nor do they guarantee a grab for Luigi when you shield them? What the hell is ZeRo talking about? Concon made his brain explode.

ZeRo is currently going down the route of "I have loads of tournament wins and my opinion is basically fact" (check his twitter) and it's bad. He can still be wrong. The characters he listed are all strong and relevant to the meta but as a top 5 that list is pretty bogus.

 

[san.]

I think it's better to argue that another character deserves top 5 over another character being undeserving of that title since it's relative. For instance, he may just see Luigi's pro-con combination as a whole as better than whoever he believes is 6+.

 

[Luco]

Recently, I'm not sure. Most Ness mains consider him in the top 10 but top 5 is something I'm not so sure about. It tends to be the top players saying he's there (M2K and ZeRo in this case), whilst personally I'd be more inclined to go along with LP. Personally I think Luigi and Ness should, at this stage, be right next to each other on a list, but that's just a personal thing.

@ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY - I know I've tried to leave it up to others to explain it in the past but I'll give you a rough idea of it in the paragraphs below.

Spoiler

Back Throw is certainly a big deal, but Ness has always had that. Ness is great this game because he also has some really interesting Dthrow combos (that don't just use Fair), he doesn't struggle offstage anywhere near as much with an intangible bolt at the beginning of PKT1 + wall bounce extra PKT, his onstage game abusing Fair and Nair are really potent against a decent-ish amount of characters, and Bair seems to be the safest SH aerial we have. Aside from Bthrow we have a massive plethora of kill moves including Bair, Uair, Nair (especially near the ledge), PKT2 (on failed edge-guards), Dsmash (edge-guarding), and obviously more impractical ones.

What I'm trying to say is we have a reasonably strong neutral, a crazy punish game with OoS Nair, a good advantaged state augmented by combo fodder Fair, a better disadvantaged state than in any other smash game ever (no CGs), plus more minor traits such as being midweight whilst maintaining a small frame.

Our MU spread is really good too. Not many characters we wreck, but our worst MU is probably a -2 and any other disadvantaged MUs are -1s - even Rosaluma - and to top it off, THAT's when you add Bthrow, the most reliable kill move in the game which bypasses an admittedly slightly weaker option this game but still pretty strong, shield. If I had 5 cents for every time Ness was quoted to be "high tier IF THIS AWFUL THING THAT SEEMS MINOR WASN'T IN THE GAME" in past smash games, I'd be a very rich man indeed. As it happened, the stars aligned and Ness is stronger than ever this game. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean he's top 5, but I see why people think that, kinda...

We're about to do some serious research on Dthrow and whether it can get guaranteed stuff in every situation, so I'll get back to you, but generally at lower percents you can run and SH Fair and punish any AD attempts which means the best option is probably to DJ. And Nair does kill surprisingly well when edge-guarding at mid-higher percents, it just rarely gets used because Bthrow, Bair, Uair or some kind of other gimp will have probably killed the opponent before that point.

Spoiler

Shameless self-promotion, but I remember the set really well so here's an example. In DK's defence it was awful DI but you should get a rough idea from this anyway (I've linked it to be right at the point I'm talking about, it's near the very end):

Something to mention is I'm self-admittedly one of the more optimistic Ness mains in our community. Some other Ness mains will tell you Ness barely makes top 10, others believe he could be as low as high mid in the end.

 

[Trifroze]

Even though Ness has a lot of strengths to make up for his bad recovery, it's a very abusable weakness and will only get worse as time goes on. From my experience Ness' neutral isn't that great either. While Snake in Brawl had a bad recovery, he also had amazing killing ability and stage control but he still fell outside of top 5 eventually.

Ness has some solid moves outside of back throw though, nair gets him out of trouble easily, fair is excellent at keeping opponents away and covering his mid-air jump upon recovery, dthrow is a combo throw, uair is among the strongest and fastest in the game and PK thunder harasses some characters offstage pretty hard without putting Ness into any danger, and he has a decent dash grab to get things started. However I don't see Ness winning neutral versus many of the characters we consider good right now, and as time goes on his recovery will start to get exploited more and more.

In tournament sets, Nairo is the only one I've seen so far who has deliberately and continuously jumped in front of Ness' recovery in situations where he couldn't have connected with an attack, teched the hit and gimped Ness because of the shortened distance on his recovery. A time will come when Ness having to resort to his up b means he's dead, same with Diddy.

 

[DunnoBro]

How come


I saw you go for and miss a lot of stuff with DHD, honestly that didn't take away the hype for me, that stuff has got to be really hard. When I watched Ninjalinks video of DHD's customs the Zig Zag can really stood out as the one move that could really help the character, I was able to think of a ton of stuff you could do with it, but I hadn't ever really seen anyone try to do those things before I watched you play, and you did lots of things I hadn't thought of as well. Looking forward to seeing more. Aren't you like the best DHD in the US at least? I have a hard time seeing MVD's ditto stand up to you right now. Brood is sick of course, but without customs he's working with limited tools.

They might still be hype for you but they're mortifying for me. Duck hunt's only redeeming competitive quality is his absurd damage output and versatile pressure game with customs, but his neutral and return to neutral are awful and especially without the default can, he can't deal with rushdown very well. So if I screw up a combo, or frame trap, there's nothing for me to fall back on. No kill throws, no good smashes to throw out for free, all I can do is either hope for a mistake and punish, or try for another combo which gets much much harder at higher %

This is why when I first saw and played with zigzag, thought it was contradictory and bad. (And also because I didn't use it with mega gunmen, which is needed to add to the pressure and walling game for most mus) MVD still thinks it is.

But it isn't just that, it's that I need to also practice for default ruleset, and my new default main Yoshi. I don't want to hurt my custom duck hunt by continuing using him in default much. He functions way differently and the milion-and-one set-ups are just too different to keep switching it up. (approaching and especially grabbing is way more worth it as custom duck hunt, default is very passive)

Also I don't know about being the best DHD, but there's absolutely no way custom DHD is losing to default DHD unless he's getting outplayed like crazy. Mega gunmen shuts down default DHD's everything, zigzag beats default can and gunmen, and not only does default have to approach 95% of the time due to mega, he's the only one that has to approach to eventually kill.

 

[Luco]

Even though Ness has a lot of strengths to make up for his bad recovery, it's a very abusable weakness and will only get worse as time goes on. From my experience Ness' neutral isn't that great either. While Snake in Brawl had a bad recovery, he also had amazing killing ability and stage control but he still fell outside of top 5 eventually.

Ness has some solid moves outside of back throw though, nair gets him out of trouble easily, fair is excellent at keeping opponents away and covering his mid-air jump upon recovery, dthrow is a combo throw, uair is among the strongest and fastest in the game and PK thunder harasses some characters offstage pretty hard without putting Ness into any danger, and he has a decent dash grab to get things started. However I don't see Ness winning neutral versus many of the characters we consider good right now, and as time goes on his recovery will start to get exploited more and more.

In tournament sets, Nairo is the only one I've seen so far who has deliberately and continuously jumped in front of Ness' recovery in situations where he couldn't have connected with an attack, teched the hit and gimped Ness because of the shortened distance on his recovery. A time will come when Ness having to resort to his up b means he's dead, same with Diddy.

Fair. I'd argue that Bair gives us a bit of potency in neutral, but against the upper echelons of the cast I'm not so sure there's too much else. The reason I say 'reasonably strong' is because I think Bair is still really good and in most MUs Fair is low risk enough to usually be alright. I haven't played Ness at tournament recently though so this might be different now.

UpB is complicated and weird, but it was like that in Brawl too and it was surprisingly rare how often the top Ness mains got gimped. Thankfully with one of the highest second jumps in the game, it's rare that we're put into such awful positions.

Does Brawler have the results to be top 5 still? I feel like Helicopter kick is great but not sure how far it takes him. Yoshi I think is pretty close to Ness and Luigi, Fox is almost certainly better though, I agree with you there Hippie.

 

[Pyr]

He mentions a few times that it's not supposed to be a tierlist (order). Pretty interesting though. Although I doubt Luigi is that high and Fox is kinda missing up there. Ness is really good, but I don't think that good... but who knows.

Imo Sheik, Rosa, Fox, Diddy, Sonic, ZSS, Pikachu are still the top. With Ness close after and then there's Yoshi, CF, Mario, Luigi, (Megaman/Wario/Villager/Pit,) ...
I tried to order it in which I think it could be, but it's with guessing. I still have no idea what we can say about Diddy right now and Rosalina kinda only has Dabuz who I haven't seen lately and Pikachu kinda needs ESAMs results to show how good it is. But overall these look like the strongest characters right now.

My list is without customs btw.

Why Ness? What's so good about him? Isn't Brawler better? Edit: And Fox and Yoshi? Ness seems like the odd one out in that top 5 list.

What does Zero and m2k think about custom Palutena, anyone know?

Edit2: and yeah Pikachu as well! Does Ness really have results to warrant a top 5 spot? :S

Ask Zero. I was referencing the 5 characters he mentioned in his video in the order they appeared.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Spoilers:

Sheik, Rosa, Luigi, Ness (iirc), Diddy in that order.

Why Ness? What's so good about him? Isn't Brawler better?

What does Zero and m2k think about custom Palutena, anyone know?

They might still be hype for you but they're mortifying for me. Duck hunt's only redeeming competitive quality is his absurd damage output and versatile pressure game with customs, but his neutral and return to neutral are awful and especially without the default can, he can't deal with rushdown very well. So if I screw up a combo, or frame trap, there's nothing for me to fall back on. No kill throws, no good smashes to throw out for free, all I can do is either hope for a mistake and punish, or try for another combo which gets much much harder at higher %

This is why when I first saw and played with zigzag, thought it was contradictory and bad. (And also because I didn't use it with mega gunmen, which is needed to add to the pressure and walling game for most mus) MVD still thinks it is.

But it isn't just that, it's that I need to also practice for default ruleset, and my new default main Yoshi. I don't want to hurt my custom duck hunt by continuing using him in default much. He functions way differently and the milion-and-one set-ups are just too different to keep switching it up. (approaching and especially grabbing is way more worth it as custom duck hunt, default is very passive)

Also I don't know about being the best DHD, but there's absolutely no way custom DHD is losing to default DHD unless he's getting outplayed like crazy. Mega gunmen shuts down default DHD's everything, zigzag beats default can and gunmen, and not only does default have to approach 95% of the time due to mega, he's the only one that has to approach to eventually kill.

I can understand that, DHD is a really cool character imo, dig the concept and playstyle, but the lack of kills and some other stuff makes him seem like a really frustrating character to main which is why I would never main him myself, I don't have the mentality for that. Just wanted to say as a viewer I really appreciate the hard work.

@ Pyr : I already have but I doubt he'll answer, I'm just some random scrub. Still want to hear other peoples opinions on the matter

 

[Pyr]

@ Pyr : I already have but I doubt he'll answer, I'm just some random scrub. Still want to hear other peoples opinions on the matter

My statement was just for the benefit of those that might not be able to watch the video. That said, I don't think Ness is even in the top 10.

 

[deepseadiva]

Ness has like every character trait you would want in a top tier what are yall even smoking pass dat ****

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Recently, I'm not sure. Most Ness mains consider him in the top 10 but top 5 is something I'm not so sure about. It tends to be the top players saying he's there (M2K and ZeRo in this case), whilst personally I'd be more inclined to go along with LP. Personally I think Luigi and Ness should, at this stage, be right next to each other on a list, but that's just a personal thing.

@ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY - I know I've tried to leave it up to others to explain it in the past but I'll give you a rough idea of it in the paragraphs below.

Spoiler

Back Throw is certainly a big deal, but Ness has always had that. Ness is great this game because he also has some really interesting Dthrow combos (that don't just use Fair), he doesn't struggle offstage anywhere near as much with an intangible bolt at the beginning of PKT1 + wall bounce extra PKT, his onstage game abusing Fair and Nair are really potent against a decent-ish amount of characters, and Bair seems to be the safest SH aerial we have. Aside from Bthrow we have a massive plethora of kill moves including Bair, Uair, Nair (especially near the ledge), PKT2 (on failed edge-guards), Dsmash (edge-guarding), and obviously more impractical ones.

What I'm trying to say is we have a reasonably strong neutral, a crazy punish game with OoS Nair, a good advantaged state augmented by combo fodder Fair, a better disadvantaged state than in any other smash game ever (no CGs), plus more minor traits such as being midweight whilst maintaining a small frame.

Our MU spread is really good too. Not many characters we wreck, but our worst MU is probably a -2 and any other disadvantaged MUs are -1s - even Rosaluma - and to top it off, THAT's when you add Bthrow, the most reliable kill move in the game which bypasses an admittedly slightly weaker option this game but still pretty strong, shield. If I had 5 cents for every time Ness was quoted to be "high tier IF THIS AWFUL THING THAT SEEMS MINOR WASN'T IN THE GAME" in past smash games, I'd be a very rich man indeed. As it happened, the stars aligned and Ness is stronger than ever this game. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean he's top 5, but I see why people think that, kinda...

We're about to do some serious research on Dthrow and whether it can get guaranteed stuff in every situation, so I'll get back to you, but generally at lower percents you can run and SH Fair and punish any AD attempts which means the best option is probably to DJ. And Nair does kill surprisingly well when edge-guarding at mid-higher percents, it just rarely gets used because Bthrow, Bair, Uair or some kind of other gimp will have probably killed the opponent before that point.

Spoiler

Shameless self-promotion, but I remember the set really well so here's an example. In DK's defence it was awful DI but you should get a rough idea from this anyway (I've linked it to be right at the point I'm talking about, it's near the very end):

Something to mention is I'm self-admittedly one of the more optimistic Ness mains in our community. Some other Ness mains will tell you Ness barely makes top 10, others believe he could be as low as high mid in the end.

Idk I've been told by ness mains Rosalina's his worst MU. I also don't agree on having a great neutral game. To me his neutral game is pretty *meh*. His aerials are good but his range is pretty piss poor.

According to Zero's top 5 of Rosalina diddy shiek lugi. Who does Ness actually have a positive MU vs?

 

[Radical Larry]

I don't see the big deal with Ness...
Although that PK Fire Spamming is just irritating as all living hell.

 

[Trifroze]

Ness has like every character trait you would want in a top tier what are yall even smoking pass dat ****

Speed or a safe projectile? Hell, most top/high tiers have both and if they don't they're just ridiculously fast like Sonic and Falcon and to an extent Fox. Even Rosalina is fairly fast and she has Luma to absorb most things thrown at her so her neutral is great regardless. Luigi is slow but still faster than Ness and he has a similar dash grab, plus a good projectile for approaching (and when he does get in he does arguably more damage than anyone). Top tiers tend to have good recoveries too, although not always.

 

[deepseadiva]

Speed or a safe projectile? Hell, most top/high tiers have both and if they don't they're just ridiculously fast like Sonic and Falcon and to an extent Fox. Even Rosalina is fairly fast and she has Luma to absorb most things thrown at her so her neutral is great regardless. Luigi is slow but still faster than Ness and he has a similar dash grab, plus a good projectile for approaching (and when he does get in he does arguably more damage than anyone). Top tiers tend to have good recoveries too, although not always.

I mean I would not call Ness slow.

And PK Fire isn't a big deal, but it's respectable. Exceptionally rewarding on hit.

Like someone said characters are a package with pros and cons. Ness is an exceptional package. More than comparable to the top 5 MINIMUM.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Spoilers:

Sheik, Rosa, Luigi, Ness (iirc), Diddy in that order.

Weird. I generally consider Sheik, Rosa, Diddy, and Sonic to be a cut above the rest, with the 5th spot probably belonging to Pika, though Pika I'd tier as the top of A tier, ahead of Zero Suit, Luigi, Fox, Yoshi, and Ness. Sheik I consider to be S+ because she has no losing MUs, while the other S tiers have nothing more than soft counters and minor flaws. The A tiers have more significant flaws but impressive strengths to balance them out and have some bad MUs, but not too many and none that are too bad or kill their viability.

 

[Djent]

Zero's list lacks and , who are ridiculous even without customs and only get stronger with them. doesn't belong in the top 5 (nor does anyone who decisively loses to ). I'd probably drop out of top 5, not because there's anything terribly wrong with him, but just by process of elimination.

Top 5 (w/ customs) IMO: ////

 

[Shaya]

Mobility, grab game / damage output, recovery (+ edge guarding potential), good/safe moves, good zoning/camping/forces approaches

Ness doesn't have the mobility, doesn't have the recovery and doesn't really outcamp anyone. He makes approaching him hard though and has the stupidest victory requirements (RAGE BACK THROW YEAAAAH)

Also tone is a funny thing, I doubt ZeRo wants to place himself as "100% correct because he's ZeRo", he's just acting out like any person with an opinion does, chillllll.
Nairo's been working on a tier list recently (customs off), his top 5 was ... and uhh... I think? in that order as Top tier/top 5. Up to middle tier (he hasn't finished) I'm mostly in agreement with him.

Personally right now I think

Top Tier:

High:

 

[Deathcarter]

Speed or a safe projectile? Hell, most top/high tiers have both and if they don't they're just ridiculously fast like Sonic and Falcon and to an extent Fox. Even Rosalina is fairly fast and she has Luma to absorb most things thrown at her so her neutral is great regardless. Luigi is slow but still faster than Ness and he has a similar dash grab, plus a good projectile for approaching (and when he does get in he does arguably more damage than anyone). Top tiers tend to have good recoveries too, although not always.

What about PK Thunder? Its not very great in neutral compared to Fireballs/Needles/Shooting Star Bits but its deadly when Ness gets the advantage.

 

[Trifroze]

I mean I would not call Ness slow.

And PK Fire isn't a big deal, but it's respectable. Exceptionally rewarding on hit.

Like someone said characters are a package with pros and cons. Ness is an exceptional package. More than comparable to the top 5 MINIMUM.

Ness is definitely on the slow side. Dash speed #38, aerial speed #31 and fall/ff speed (since they're proportional) #39. Maybe my perspective on PK fire is skewed due to maining Falcon, but I'm fairly sure most characters can punish a shielded one even at its max range. I may be underestimating Ness' recovery though, I'm focusing on his up b too much. It may be decent overall.

What about PK Thunder? Its not very great in neutral compared to Fireballs/Needles/Shooting Star Bits but its deadly when Ness gets the advantage.

I did mention this though, he can harass some recoveries with it. It's not an autowin for him either however since you can just beat it out with a hitbox if you read its path.

 

[bc1910]

Also tone is a funny thing, I doubt ZeRo wants to place himself as "100% correct because he's ZeRo", he's just acting out like any person with an opinion does, chillllll.

Top Tier:

nvm, this wasn't a "tone" problem but there's no point turning this into a ZeRo bashing discussion

You and I have the same top 5 incidentally. Of those characters I think Fox is solidly #5 because he's the most exploitable but there's still no-one else I'd put him below.

 

[thehard]

Mobility, grab game / damage output, recovery (+ edge guarding potential), good/safe moves, good zoning/camping/forces approaches

Ness doesn't have the mobility, doesn't have the recovery and doesn't really outcamp anyone. He makes approaching him hard though and has the stupidest victory requirements (RAGE BACK THROW YEAAAAH)

Also tone is a funny thing, I doubt ZeRo wants to place himself as "100% correct because he's ZeRo", he's just acting out like any person with an opinion does, chillllll.
Nairo's been working on a tier list recently (customs off), his top 5 was ... and uhh... I think? in that order as Top tier/top 5. Up to middle tier (he hasn't finished) I'm mostly in agreement with him.

Personally right now I think

Top Tier:

High:

Doesn't Nairo not see ZSS as very high, like just outside top 15?

 

[Lavani]

Doesn't Nairo not see ZSS as very high, like just outside top 15?

He posted this in here a month ago when people were saying similar things about his thoughts on her:

Just want to say that I said ZSS is in top 10 not top 15 but just not top 3 tho like some people may think. (IMO) Small characters can be pretty annoying for her to fight. She has a lot of stuff she can pull off but if you can't land a grab, dsmash, nair or neutral B it can be hard to get something going for her. (Doesn't mean she can't win vs X character, a few airdodge reads and you can be done for lolol)

 

[thehard]

He posted this in here a month ago when people were saying similar things about his thoughts on her:

Wow I even liked that post, what's wrong with me

 

[Ulevo]

Jump Glide is a powerful recovery in that it allows Palutena to completely dodge the ledge. IMO that's HUGE. Avoiding that disadvantaged situation is really useful. I'm not bought on how some players use it to approach and fly into opponents on stage... but a recovery you can act out of without landing lag will always be GOOD. I would never call it a bad move.

Warp is very good as well. Teleports will always be excellent.

Her teleport, and teleports in general (excluding Meta Knight's Dimensional Cape and Sheik's Vanish) are pretty terrible in this game. They have poor recovery frames and low invincibility, along with being very vulnerable at the ledge.

 

[Shaya]

Nairo has over time gotten more confident in stating his love/mainship of ZSS; I remember the call out when I said he mains ZSS now whilst not mentioning Zelda, Robin, etc (he still ranks Robin pretty high though, top of middle tier, and zelda towards middle maybe low middle). He realised how hard she's working for him and can never forsake her feelings again
Her undesirable traits being her light weight and grab. Rather than it being something that limits her, it's more so something that increases difficulty (for what is really bogus/amazing rewards). He also admits she's one of the characters who can go up over time, POTENTIAL oozing out of every orifice.

 

[Ulevo]

Personally right now I think

Top Tier:

High:

Out of those characters, exactly how many does Fox win and lose to?

 

[thehard]

So yesterday's Shockwave featured this Tech of the Week: http://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator/v/5006780?t=3h36m08s

Spoilers: Everyone's been edgeguarding wrong

 

[deepseadiva]

So yesterday's Shockwave featured this Tech of the Week: http://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator/v/5006780?t=3h36m08s

Spoilers: Everyone's been edgeguarding wrong

This has been the one useful post in like 100 pages of this thread.

 

[Shaya]

Out of those characters, exactly how many does Fox win and lose to?

I think he tops out a lot due to Jab locks, if assuming only the neutral game/etc I actually feel he could be slight disadvantage to a lot of the high/tops.

IMO possibly slight advantage on Sheik, Sonic, Falcon (or easier just to say even ) just by virtue of traits; after the patch I could see Diddy in a similar spot, although I still think Diddy is good enough to win in all match ups he used to be advantageous in. Depending on who you ask, he loses or goes evenish with ZSS. Pikachu has easy-modo gimps but I'm not seeing how any of Pikachu's strengths beyond that have any overbearing effect on Fox whatsoever, they're somewhat combo food for each other but there's nothing to indicate it's a disadvantage, I'd tip the hat to Fox. Luigi looks and sounds hard in theory. And I have not really seen Rosa vs Fox ever... wouldn't surprise me if it's a disadvantage. I've heard Mario is even.

In a [subjective] good / balanced smash game (i.e. "the dream" e.g. Brawl without MK/ICs :3; [maybe pre-20XX] Melee), top tier is indicative of popularity/results, distinctive consistency against majority of the cast while being roughly even [on average] with most of the other popular/top characters. There is nothing "obnoxious" left in the top tiers of this game customs-off bar Fox jab (maybe Luigi's grab game, so many characters get steam rolled by him IMO], Fox has a megatonfox of results and exists in practically every region, he also is one of the few who gets solid buffs out of customs, he's even stronger in that meta and it is predominant atm, the two best Fox' Megafox and Larry don't seem to lose or struggle in any match up while being in pretty strong regions with a lot of tournament victories, his speed/mobility/kill power/damage is more than most of the cast can truly handle. If he loses to anyone I struggle to see it as bad as 40:60.

 

[Pyr]

So yesterday's Shockwave featured this Tech of the Week: http://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator/v/5006780?t=3h36m08s

Spoilers: Everyone's been edgeguarding wrong

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wpax41DC_Y

People have had info to know better for 4 months and still aren't applying it. =p

 

[thehard]

----nvm----

 

[Jams.]

Did everyone miss the fact that ZeRo said it's not a list of the best characters, but rather the characters most relevant to the metagame? For instance, he said that he thinks Pikachu is top 3, but excluded him from the video because he has 1 top level representative, lacks a large playerbase, and therefore has less metagame relevance.

I do think Sonic and Fox may be larger threats in the meta than some of the characters he listed, but those characters do have a larger playerbase and are more common at the low-mid level due to ease of use.

 

[Unknownkid]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wpax41DC_Y

People have had info to know better for 4 months and still aren't applying it. =p

It is sort of a different approach on the video, Pyr. KirbyKid even reference those videos, threads and topics in the tech of the week video. The problem was noone was able to do it consistently which led to players just staying on the stage rather than risk it. It took me a while to understand what he showed differently until I asked him. Like he said in the video - it is where you attack the hurtbox to catch the opponent instead of leaving a lingering hitbox. KK stated he can consistently hit Sheik out of the Ledgesnap regardless where she goes - from horizontal, above or ride up the slant of the stage because she always catches the ledge the same way.

Now, most has different ways on how they catch the ledge and various positions where the hurtbox is. I ask him about invincible Up B like Sonic and Luigi (I think Luigi is invincible on the way up). He said it is possible every character include those two - we just need to figure out where their specific hurt box lies. Sadly, I left the stream before he asked me to test it out with Luigi/Sonic.

tl:dr - The video is about there is an exact position to attack the vulnerable frame. Most character hurtboxes are at the same position while others are somewhere. Sheik, for example, is actually down and away from the stage. This will now lead to more consistent "Snap Backs" .... until Sakurai decides to patch it. I hope that helps. If not, then well I tried and you might need to ask him personally.

 

[Quickhero]

So yesterday's Shockwave featured this Tech of the Week: http://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator/v/5006780?t=3h36m08s

Spoilers: Everyone's been edgeguarding wrong

First the DI thing, now this....

I have no clue how I've been the only one that's actually known about these things. o.o I thought this stuff was common knowledge.