Character Competitive Impressions

[meleebrawler]

Unsafe aerials for approaching and the lack of a projectile without having Sonic, Falcon, Fox or Mac speed come to mind, although his dash grab is really good at mid range. Mainly though I feel like MK's neutral is a worse version of Falcon; just take the safe and decent-range aerials off and add a moderate amount of landing lag to them while having less movement speed. I think he's a solid character though, been thinking of picking him up from time to time.

He has godly recovery and edgeguarding (at least compared to Falcon) to make up for it though.

 

[Radical Larry]

He has godly recovery and edgeguarding (at least compared to Falcon) to make up for it though.

Eh, Meta Knight has a so-so recovery, nothing spectacular once he's hit. His edge-guarding isn't that great actually, since he has very poor aerial movement and his size (which can easily be abused). He can be edge-guarded easily by some opponents.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Eh, Meta Knight has a so-so recovery, nothing spectacular once he's hit. His edge-guarding isn't that great actually, since he has very poor aerial movement and his size (which can easily be abused). He can be edge-guarded easily by some opponents.

You crazy

MetaKnight has 4 specials that recover (some cover space around him, namely n-B and side b), multiple jumps, and aerials, namely Nair, Fair, and Bair. Name some chars that can claim that many options offstage.

 

[mimgrim]

his size (which can easily be abused).

Wat.

Seriously. Just how in the world do you abuse a small body, as the one going against the small body.

Sometimes I think you try to live to you namesake too much. e_e

 

[andimidna]

Larry pls

What do ppl here think of Ganon vs 1.0.6/7 Sheik and Diddy

 

[Anomilus]

: bad projectile, unsafe and slow move, lack of kill power bar Usmash, and Usmash is unsafe

I'd agree with @ PUK about lack of kill power though.

Okaaaay, this mix-up of description has to stop.

Bowser Jr. does NOT lack kill power. AT ALL.

Side Smash is quite powerful when it's not finicky (and that was improved slightly I believe)
Up Smash is strong.
Down Smash is stronger yet.
BAir is a good off-stage killer
UAir can KO at higher percentages
Klown Car Dash's spinout can KO
Abandon Ship explosion KOs, as does the hammer attack at pretty low percentages
B-Throw can kill, but at high percentages

Outside of UAir, BAir, and B-Throw, all of these kill at average to above average percentages. That is not a lack of kill power.

The problem is - and this is an issue several other characters, including my main Mega man, has - Bowser Jr. lacks kill setups. It's not his power. It's his ability to draw opponents to getting hit by those KO options.

> Up Smash's hitbox does not extend horizontally that well and is a risky anti-air. It can work as a spotdodge or roll punish
> Down Smash's active frames are relatively small considering its end lag. A stronger but worse spotdodge punish, slightly better roll punish
> BAir requires getting the opponent off stage, and it's not all that fast
> UAir I believe has to hit early enough to get the strongest hit, and it takes a bit of aim, and it's not one of Jr.'s stronger options
> Car Dash is a risky rush-in dash. Can't necessarily set up into it
> Abandon Ship is his most abuseable KO option, but puts Jr. in a very iffy state
> Hammer without a setup is practically a crap shoot.
> B-Throw isn't helped by Jr.'s lousy grab

See, interestingly enough, Jr.'s best chances at a KO is to use that "bad projectile" of his to manipulate his opponent. If you're just tossing it out and sending it on its way, it's gonna get grabbed and used against him. Mecha Koopa has to be used as stage control, but Jr. usually has to be the one that leads, not the projectile. Often it's the other way around, firing a projectile and then running after it. The point of Mecha Koopa is to create an active lesser threat. If the opponent tries something against Jr., they should be at risk of touching the Mecha in the process. Meanwhile, it's up to Jr. to find or create an opening to inflict as much damage as possible or score that elusive KO.

Personally I think a critical issue with Bowser Jr. is that he has to work a bit too hard to stay ahead, and when he falls behind, it can be really tough to reset the situation. His get-off options aren't really good. D-Tilt can discourage most lateral approaches from the ground, but not from the air. NAir hits on both sides, but he doesn't have great air mobility and is vulnerable above and below. Abandon Ship puts him in a bad state and has too much start-up to make a good get-off move. Rushdown/Zone Breaker characters can stick to him and make getting a Mecha Koopa out difficult, and they also happen to have the easiest time snatching the toy. Projectile users clearly beat him out in their area of specialty since he's not that kind of projectile fighter. Zoners with enough range can space him out as his range is mostly average.

 

[warionumbah2]

I remember reading another post on a different thread where someone said "MK lacks kill power" .

I expect to read that **** on reddit,twitch chat and youtube not smashboards.

 

[wedl!!]

I remember reading another post on a different thread where someone said "MK lacks kill power" .

I expect to read that **** on reddit,twitch chat and youtube not smashboards.

those posts are written by FG warriors who likely picked MK once and were like "he's bad" despite not knowing how the character works.

yea, i would agree he "lacks" kill power. if you don't know how to use his kit, that is.

on this subject, the characters i feel legitimately have trouble killing outside of like one or two moves are .

everything he has to kill is hilariously unsafe. are designed around their mobility and combo game as opposed to taking stocks early (at least they can all go deep offstage! sort of). can only edgeguard.

 

[Luco]

^ is an interesting opinion, and it made me think...

People like to say has decent killpower but I kinda disagree, I feel like Uair is too telegraphed, Fsmash is great when pivoted but it seems to not happen very often and Usmash suffers the same problems as the star crew in that if you're on the ground you can just shield and not freak out too badly because the worst that can happen is you get grabbed and throw (which don't get me wrong, puts you in a bad position but then all Yoshi can do reliably is try to get you on landing.

Maybe I'm not viewing it quite correctly, but does Yoshi truly hold up when it comes to killing?

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Eh, Meta Knight has a so-so recovery, nothing spectacular once he's hit. His edge-guarding isn't that great actually, since he has very poor aerial movement and his size (which can easily be abused). He can be edge-guarded easily by some opponents.

I don't know if I've ever seen you post something correct.

 

[Trifroze]

Larry pls

What do ppl here think of Ganon vs 1.0.6/7 Sheik and Diddy

Neutral is still just as terrible but often he only needs to win neutral a few times per stock, and now he lives longer to have a chance at that especially versus Diddy. Related to the subject, I think Ganondorf mostly gets wrecked by the likes of Diddy, Sheik and Rosalina who have solid neutrals and can keep Ganondorf away and at the same time punish most things he tries to do. Sonic and Falcon in particular can punish anything he does and run away from him making him have to commit to more mistakes. I'm not sure how much trouble Pikachu is with customs since Ganondorf can recover a lot better, but I'd guess it's still annoying with Pikachu's frame data, movement speed and combos. Extreme zoners like Villager, Mega Man and Duck Hunt Duo can keep him out really well also. Aside from that, I'd say he beats or goes even with most other characters (excluding some other high tiers) simply because of how massive his rewards are. Ganondorf still has two kinds of matchups; ones that he can't get in on and ones that he wins.

 

[PUK]

Okaaaay, this mix-up of description has to stop.

Bowser Jr. does NOT lack kill power. AT ALL.

Side Smash is quite powerful when it's not finicky (and that was improved slightly I believe)
Up Smash is strong.
Down Smash is stronger yet.
BAir is a good off-stage killer
UAir can KO at higher percentages
Klown Car Dash's spinout can KO
Abandon Ship explosion KOs, as does the hammer attack at pretty low percentages
B-Throw can kill, but at high percentages

Outside of UAir, BAir, and B-Throw, all of these kill at average to above average percentages. That is not a lack of kill power.

I think you don't understand smash are not kill option unless there quick and safe enough to be landed reliably. Pikachu Usmash is a kill option, zelda Usmash is not for exemple.
But i think usmash is the only Jr's smash fast enough to be landed with a simple read
Outside of this, Uair an Bair need condition to work, and these condition are not easy to fill, while Bthrow kills really late with good VI, and given the fact Jr's grab is what it is, it's not reliable.
The three other options only work if the opponent doesn't know Jr's strenght.

 

[outfoxd]

Okaaaay, this mix-up of description has to stop.

Bowser Jr. does NOT lack kill power. AT ALL.

Side Smash is quite powerful when it's not finicky (and that was improved slightly I believe)
Up Smash is strong.
Down Smash is stronger yet.
BAir is a good off-stage killer
UAir can KO at higher percentages
Klown Car Dash's spinout can KO
Abandon Ship explosion KOs, as does the hammer attack at pretty low percentages
B-Throw can kill, but at high percentages

Outside of UAir, BAir, and B-Throw, all of these kill at average to above average percentages. That is not a lack of kill power.

The problem is - and this is an issue several other characters, including my main Mega man, has - Bowser Jr. lacks kill setups. It's not his power. It's his ability to draw opponents to getting hit by those KO options.

> Up Smash's hitbox does not extend horizontally that well and is a risky anti-air. It can work as a spotdodge or roll punish
> Down Smash's active frames are relatively small considering its end lag. A stronger but worse spotdodge punish, slightly better roll punish
> BAir requires getting the opponent off stage, and it's not all that fast
> UAir I believe has to hit early enough to get the strongest hit, and it takes a bit of aim, and it's not one of Jr.'s stronger options
> Car Dash is a risky rush-in dash. Can't necessarily set up into it
> Abandon Ship is his most abuseable KO option, but puts Jr. in a very iffy state
> Hammer without a setup is practically a crap shoot.
> B-Throw isn't helped by Jr.'s lousy grab

See, interestingly enough, Jr.'s best chances at a KO is to use that "bad projectile" of his to manipulate his opponent. If you're just tossing it out and sending it on its way, it's gonna get grabbed and used against him. Mecha Koopa has to be used as stage control, but Jr. usually has to be the one that leads, not the projectile. Often it's the other way around, firing a projectile and then running after it. The point of Mecha Koopa is to create an active lesser threat. If the opponent tries something against Jr., they should be at risk of touching the Mecha in the process. Meanwhile, it's up to Jr. to find or create an opening to inflict as much damage as possible or score that elusive KO.

Personally I think a critical issue with Bowser Jr. is that he has to work a bit too hard to stay ahead, and when he falls behind, it can be really tough to reset the situation. His get-off options aren't really good. D-Tilt can discourage most lateral approaches from the ground, but not from the air. NAir hits on both sides, but he doesn't have great air mobility and is vulnerable above and below. Abandon Ship puts him in a bad state and has too much start-up to make a good get-off move. Rushdown/Zone Breaker characters can stick to him and make getting a Mecha Koopa out difficult, and they also happen to have the easiest time snatching the toy. Projectile users clearly beat him out in their area of specialty since he's not that kind of projectile fighter. Zoners with enough range can space him out as his range is mostly average.

I play bow jow and duck hunt and the latter has the opposite problem, I think m plenty of ways to set the table but nothing for dinner, so to speak. If he had an early killing aerial he would be a problem. If he had a killing throw he'd be a problem.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Neutral is still just as terrible but often he only needs to win neutral a few times per stock, and now he lives longer to have a chance at that especially versus Diddy. Related to the subject, I think Ganondorf mostly gets wrecked by the likes of Diddy, Sheik and Rosalina who have solid neutrals and can keep Ganondorf away and at the same time punish most things he tries to do. Sonic and Falcon in particular can punish anything he does and run away from him making him have to commit to more mistakes. I'm not sure how much trouble Pikachu is with customs since Ganondorf can recover a lot better, but I'd guess it's still annoying with Pikachu's frame data, movement speed and combos. Extreme zoners like Villager, Mega Man and Duck Hunt Duo can keep him out really well also. Aside from that, I'd say he beats or goes even with most other characters (excluding some other high tiers) simply because of how massive his rewards are. Ganondorf still has two kinds of matchups; ones that he can't get in on and ones that he wins.

Ganon vs. Diddy isn't that bad, honestly. It's slightly in Diddy's favor because the character so so many easy conversions out of its ridiculous grab range (plus bananas), but Ganon (especially custom Ganon) has plenty of tools to handle Diddy.

Ganon vs. Sheik is pretty bad, still. Customs make it doable, but not even.

 

[Nobie]

While people say that Diddy's damage nerf isn't that big of a deal, at least in the Yoshi matchup I think it's pretty significant, making the matchup at least even. Yoshi was already very difficult to KO outright, being slightly easier to eliminate vertically, but now that hoo hah isn't as reliable an option for netting kills it means rage Yoshi is a very real threat. Yoshi also just has superior movement specs overall, with the arguable exception of Monkey Flip.

 

[Thinkaman]

The difference between a move that can kill and a kill option is the difference between Ganon u-tilt and Ganon u-smash.

 

[PUK]

I play bow jow and duck hunt and the latter has the opposite problem, I think m plenty of ways to set the table but nothing for dinner, so to speak. If he had an early killing aerial he would be a problem. If he had a killing throw he'd be a problem.

Fair tipered should kill way earlier than it does about DHD. It does 10% but kills later than Diddy Fair post patch. Bair tippered is underpowered too, and pls fix Uair.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Mac N-Air has fixed knockback and generally leaves you at a small frame disadvantage even on hit. Found some neat quirks with it, though--

A shorthop immediate N-Air cannot be shieldgrabbed by any character but Mewtwo without a significant delay; everyone else's grab boxes are too low. Whiffed shieldgrab attempts give you enough time to do a Up-B (grounded or aerial), aerial Forward-B (except on very short characters), a fastfall landing -> Jab/Tilt/KO Punch (though the fastfall must be delayed slightly or you won't autocancel), or pretty much any aerial (except U-Air on short characters, for obvious reasons).

Shorthop immediate N-Air -> immediate fastfall U-Air lands immediately after the hitbox ends. It has 22 frames of landing lag, but the knockback is so small that landing U-Air -> Up-B and landing U-Air -> Forward-B are true combos at varying percents (the latter on fastfallers, and working at KO percents). The D-Tilt follow-up to N-Air works much the same way (though not at 100+%) and deals more damage, but the timing is pretty strict.

There's also a distinction between characters of a certain amount of gravity where a N-Air on a grounded opponent will allow them to buffer an action before landing lag kicks in. Perhaps surprisingly, this is actually a GOOD thing for Little Mac, as what would otherwise be something like -5 on hit will often be much better; the hitstun on a N-Air is so low that any command pressed during hitstun is within the buffer window. Because the buffered input priority is Special > Shield > Attack > Jump, the natural inclination to shield against Mac will turn into an airdodge, giving the opponent enough landing lag to punish with an Up-B, aerial, or landing -> Jab. Up-B and aerials also punish opponents mashing out a N-Air, such as Luigi.

I haven't documented what uses it has against most of the characters who fall too quickly to buffer an option before landing lag, but a Falcon who gets hit by N-Air, and does an immediate Jab combo will have the Jab3 whiff at any percent, giving you enough time to fastfall -> sweetspot U-Smash as an easy punish. I wonder what other characters miss like that...

 

[outfoxd]

Fair tipered should kill way earlier than it does about DHD. It does 10% but kills later than Diddy Fair post patch. Bair tippered is underpowered too, and pls fix Uair.

I've taken to trying to play a vicious edge guard/trump and can game to compensate but that has its own problems.

 

[deepseadiva]

Okaaaay, this mix-up of description has to stop.

Bowser Jr. does NOT lack kill power. AT ALL.

When I'm referring to "KO Power" I am talking about something practical like ease of landing moves.

Yes, every character in the game has smash attacks...

Now who is actually landing them, is the real question.

 

[Sodo]

I want this thread's opinion on a couple of things. This is just a sort of poll based entirely on opinion, so I don't want to start a flame war or anything but maybe facilitate some discussion. Which characters, in your opinion, have the best:

Neutral game?
Punish potential?
Gimping ability/edge guarding?
Grab game?
Mindgames?
Special moves?
Aggro playstyle?
Defensive playstyle?

 

[Yojimbosan]

^ is an interesting opinion, and it made me think...

People like to say has decent killpower but I kinda disagree, I feel like Uair is too telegraphed, Fsmash is great when pivoted but it seems to not happen very often and Usmash suffers the same problems as the star crew in that if you're on the ground you can just shield and not freak out too badly because the worst that can happen is you get grabbed and throw (which don't get me wrong, puts you in a bad position but then all Yoshi can do reliably is try to get you on landing.

Maybe I'm not viewing it quite correctly, but does Yoshi truly hold up when it comes to killing?

I think he has a bit of the problem when it comes to killing, it'll happen but you really need to work for it. His Fair and Bair can both kill at average percents. The last hit of Bair is the the KO and the non spike hitbox of Fair can still KO. Down smash can KO decently (both the front hit and the back hit). A up close grounded down B thats hits twice is a solid KO in my opinion. You always see it just used from the air where it's very predictable. Egg lay to a well timed grounded down B is one of my favorite moves. Then the egg lay off the side of the stage has caught out more people than it rightfully should. Sometimes people just don't try to break free. If they do then hey, you've already got them off the stage for a set up. Always worth a shot.

 

[mimgrim]

Neutral game?

Sheik, no contest.

Punish potential?

This is a vague question. Do you means in terms of getting openings to get punishes? Capitalizing off of punishes? Or just raw reward on a single punish? The answer kinda changes based on the specifics.

Most people I see when they talk about punishing seem to just mean raw reward from a single punish which means their mind usually goes to someone like Ganon or another heavy. Though, tbh, I think I would have to say on a more general scale it might be Greninja.

Gimping ability/edge guarding?

I'm not sure on a single best character at it but I'm sure Sheik, Villager, Megaman, Pac-Man, Gunner, and a few other I'm probably forgetting could be in the running for it.

Grab game?

Diddy Kong with Ness as a close second due to the fact that they can get easy grab from Nanners and PK Fire respectively (note that I considered grab game as a different entity from throw game).

 

[Sodo]

This is a vague question. Do you means in terms of getting openings to get punishes? Capitalizing off of punishes? Or just raw reward on a single punish? The answer kinda changes based on the specifics.

Diddy Kong with Ness as a close second due to the fact that they can get easy grab from Nanners and PK Fire respectively (note that I considered grab game as a different entity from throw game).

I meant capitalizing off of punishes, which kind of encompasses both of the things you mentioned. If Greninja can turn two mistakes into 30% for an opponent but Ganon can do it off of one mistake, who is better?

And yes, I agree grabs and throws are different, so I should've specified. I think a grab game would mean getting the grab and doing something with it on a followup (Luigi, Diddy Kong, Dedede and Samus maybe?), while a throw would be more geared towards getting the opponent off-stage or killing them (Ness, Mewtwo). I think Ness is a good choice as he can do both to a better extent than most characters. But I'd like to hear your opinion on that as well.

 

[Nobie]

Mac N-Air has fixed knockback and generally leaves you at a small frame disadvantage even on hit. Found some neat quirks with it, though--

A shorthop immediate N-Air cannot be shieldgrabbed by any character but Mewtwo without a significant delay; everyone else's grab boxes are too low. Whiffed shieldgrab attempts give you enough time to do a Up-B (grounded or aerial), aerial Forward-B (except on very short characters), a fastfall landing -> Jab/Tilt/KO Punch (though the fastfall must be delayed slightly or you won't autocancel), or pretty much any aerial (except U-Air on short characters, for obvious reasons).

Shorthop immediate N-Air -> immediate fastfall U-Air lands immediately after the hitbox ends. It has 22 frames of landing lag, but the knockback is so small that landing U-Air -> Up-B and landing U-Air -> Forward-B are true combos at varying percents (the latter on fastfallers, and working at KO percents). The D-Tilt follow-up to N-Air works much the same way (though not at 100+%) and deals more damage, but the timing is pretty strict.

There's also a distinction between characters of a certain amount of gravity where a N-Air on a grounded opponent will allow them to buffer an action before landing lag kicks in. Perhaps surprisingly, this is actually a GOOD thing for Little Mac, as what would otherwise be something like -5 on hit will often be much better; the hitstun on a N-Air is so low that any command pressed during hitstun is within the buffer window. Because the buffered input priority is Special > Shield > Attack > Jump, the natural inclination to shield against Mac will turn into an airdodge, giving the opponent enough landing lag to punish with an Up-B, aerial, or landing -> Jab. Up-B and aerials also punish opponents mashing out a N-Air, such as Luigi.

I haven't documented what uses it has against most of the characters who fall too quickly to buffer an option before landing lag, but a Falcon who gets hit by N-Air, and does an immediate Jab combo will have the Jab3 whiff at any percent, giving you enough time to fastfall -> sweetspot U-Smash as an easy punish. I wonder what other characters miss like that...

Huh, what about Mewtwo's physics makes him the only one who can shield grab that nair?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

There's a lot to quantify. Even if your example, the mistakes may have to be bigger/less likely for Greninja to punish than for Ganondorf. How reliable and quick those punishes are means a lot.

Also, Wario is one of the best, if not THE best, at (l)edgeguarding. Great horizontal aerial mobility, a great disparity between normal fall and fastfall, an incredible recovery for going for deep punishes, strong individual hits, a huge and powerful disjointed hitbox in Waft and a strong lingering disjointed hitbox in the Bike, multiple options that cover multiple ledge options with various results (U-Tilt, D-Smash, N-Air, D-Air, Neutral-B, a Bike throw, Down-B if used on the Bike)...

Huh, what about Mewtwo's physics makes him the only one who can shield grab that nair?

He's tall and he doesn't lean down when he grabs, unlike basically every other character. Zelda, Robin, and Palutena miss, even though they have "magic" grabs, too.

 

[PUK]

I think the best punisher of the game is Falcon. The best edgeguarder is MK by far, the shiek and shulk come to mind i guess. The best grab game is really hard to tell.
The best mindgame has been given to zero, but Falcon is the character which come to my mind.
Rosalina has the best defense, and shiek the best aggro imo

 

[TheZyzyva]

I want this thread's opinion on a couple of things. This is just a sort of poll based entirely on opinion, so I don't want to start a flame war or anything but maybe facilitate some discussion. Which characters, in your opinion, have the best:

Neutral game?
Punish potential?
Gimping ability/edge guarding?
Grab game?
Mindgames?
Special moves?
Aggro playstyle?
Defensive playstyle?

Neutral: Sheik, easily. Needles too stronk. As they say, Sheik just wins neutral. As for behind her, Id consider Diddy being good, with banana for stage control and really good aerials. Ness has a solid neutral as well, lots of solid options are available for him. Cant leave out the Capts dash grab either. Its absurd, and his good jab helps as well.

Punishes: Like Mimgrim said, depends what you mean. If you just want the power to capitalize on mistakes then its Ganon, followed by Ganondorf, then Ganon again. Dont mess up against Ganon. But if you want to force punishable situations, Diddy has the ever-powerful banana and Greninja is known to be quite the slippery frog as well. Id toss in Luigi as well since grabs are punishes too.

Edge guarding: Honestly I think its a little early in the meta to call this one, since so few players do it well, but Sheik is known for edgeguards, as is MK. Pika can go way out for the gimp too.

Grab game: Assuming getting the grab is as important as what you get out of it, Diddy and the Capt both get grabs easily and have solid follow ups. Luigi has difficulty at times landing the grab but unmatched follows off his throw, and then Ness is really solid at getting the grab, and really good throw options as well.

Defensive: Rosalina definitely. Luma tanks hits and shes really good at playing keep away. Of course theres always Villager and Megaman who can wall out really well, and ROB has undeniably good stage control worth mentioning too.

Of course anyone feel free to correct me though.

Edit: Should also include Yoshi as a good edge guarder. Fair is a pretty reliable spike, and destroys horizontal recoveries.

 

[LiteralGrill]

It's the beginning of the month again, so now for that moment you all dread love:

The /r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List​

Here's yet again a chance to try and discuss and inform the general masses a bit about characters as well as our opportunity to see how the general public feels about characters after the recent patch. Should be kind of interesting to compare to last month. Also, Mewtwo should end up loltastic.

If that isn't enough for you I've unleashed a fresh new hell onto the world I decided to try out something else on /r/smashbros in voted form:

A Voted Matchup Chart​

I expect that to go.... Um... anyways, yeah it's a crap ton of questions but maybe enough folks will answer to make an interesting comparison to the tier list. So all you people who constantly wanted to talk matchup numbers, enjoy if possible. There's the opportunity to discuss particular matchups in there at least, so maybe folks can get some good things out of it.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wario is the GOAT, as the kids say. You'll all see this after a while.

 

[mimgrim]

I meant capitalizing off of punishes, which kind of encompasses both of the things you mentioned. If Greninja can turn two mistakes into 30% for an opponent but Ganon can do it off of one mistake, who is better?

If you are looking at just raw reward, then sure, Ganon pretty much has that.

However there is so much more to the punish game then just the reward. How good can a character create punish opportunities on the opponent? How far can they capitalize the punish? From how far? Ect...

And yes, I agree grabs and throws are different, so I should've specified. I think a grab game would mean getting the grab and doing something with it on a followup (Luigi, Diddy Kong, Dedede and Samus maybe?), while a throw would be more geared towards getting the opponent off-stage or killing them (Ness, Mewtwo). I think Ness is a good choice as he can do both to a better extent than most characters. But I'd like to hear your opinion on that as well.

Grab game is "how easy is it for a character to land a grab?" but it should be noted that a good grab game does not always equal a good throw game (see Melee Falco who has a fantastic grab game but has lackluster throws), I also chose to not throw command grabs into this variable as they throw a wrench into it basically. In this case I would, overall, say that Diddy and Ness probably have the best grab games because they have the easiest conversions into a grab due to the nature of their projectiles.

In terms of throw game? That's a whole different can of worms, You got Ness whose Dthrow can follow-up for a good while and and the best Bthrow in the game for killing. You have Luigi with Dthrow wombo combos (and guaranteed Shoryuken sweet-spot kills I believe), I think Diddy still has a solid throw game on him(?), MK's throw game is nothing to scoff at either, smae with Greninja, then you have Charizard with very good positional throws along with his kill throw.

There a lot of things to consider, tbh, which makes it harder to pinpoint an absolute best in certain things.

Like it's easy to pinpoint who might have the best neutral game but it becomes significantly harder to pinpoint the best punish game because of specifics.

 

[Nobie]

I feel like most of those categories require a little asterisk that says:

*Little Mac, but only on the ground

 

[outfoxd]

I know I only tout my characters, but DHD can have a nasty grab game. Lots of delayed projectiles that control space and the cam being controllable out of foxtrots can force shields. Fortunate enough to be a zonery character without a tether like Pac man Samus. One of the reasons I keep hoping Pappa Sak gives us a power throw some day.

 

[Cassio]

I dont think Diddy is overrated at all and think anyone who has him out of the top 5 is underrating him. His kill power got knocked down from the absurd levels it was at before, thats all. Now its in line with everyone else, needing smash attacks more than aerials to take stocks. Yet, thanks to banana, he can land those smashes with relative ease.

He still has stupid good frame data and disjoints, and damage racking is essentially the same since the KB nerfs actually help his combos. He still has a claim at being number 1, especially if Sheik is the one hes fighting it for. I mean, if Diddy drops because he lost kill power, (yet still kills better than Sheik) then why is Sheik now above him when theyre equally dominant in other areas? On what grounds is he not top 5, let alone top 3?

This justification relies heavily on banana being an easy set-up for kills. And yet Im unconvinced. I actually main diddy in PM, where he had one of his bananas removed from 3.02 to 3.5, but it still beats attacks. Its versatility in many ways both on the ground and in hand gets cut significantly without this, especially as a tool in neutral.

Part of the reason diddys aerials arent converting to kills also has to do with his poor offstage game, unlike sheik and many other characters who can chase opponents to the depths of the blastzone. And as Ive said diddy's ground game isnt particularly outstanding even compared to a character like sheik.

 

[Sodo]

If you are looking at just raw reward, then sure, Ganon pretty much has that.

However there is so much more to the punish game then just the reward. How good can a character create punish opportunities on the opponent? How far can they capitalize the punish? From how far? Ect...

What if we condensed all of these factors? If you had one punish opportunity to win a supermajor tournament, which character would you pick to use?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wario, because of his high aerial mobility, as well as the flexibility, raw power, potential lingering hitbox, and large disjoint of Waft.

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol. Ganon?

Stop smoking crack guys.

Sheik wins like 5 of those categories. She can punish basically anything that is punishable from any character.

Miss a button in front of her and you eat dash attack at minimum and now you are in an air trap scenario.

 

[PUK]

lol. Ganon?

Stop smoking crack guys.

Sheik wins like 5 of those categories. She can punish basically anything that is punishable from any character.

Miss a button in front of her and you eat dash attack at minimum and now you are in an air trap scenario.

Falcon does the same thing, but is way better in this scenario

 

[Unknownkid]

It's the beginning of the month again, so now for that moment you all dread love:

The /r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List​

Here's yet again a chance to try and discuss and inform the general masses a bit about characters as well as our opportunity to see how the general public feels about characters after the recent patch. Should be kind of interesting to compare to last month. Also, Mewtwo should end up loltastic.

If that isn't enough for you I've unleashed a fresh new hell onto the world I decided to try out something else on /r/smashbros in voted form:

A Voted Matchup Chart​

I expect that to go.... Um... anyways, yeah it's a crap ton of questions but maybe enough folks will answer to make an interesting comparison to the tier list. So all you people who constantly wanted to talk matchup numbers, enjoy if possible. There's the opportunity to discuss particular matchups in there at least, so maybe folks can get some good things out of it.

Ah man. Not this again.

I feel like most of those categories require a little asterisk that says:

*Little Mac, but only on the ground

Most? Hmm... I am not sure. Let's see.
Neutral game? No. I think Sheik beats him here.
Punish potential? I can see this.
Gimping ability/edge guarding? Hmm... I think Pikachu is better at this but Reflex makes an amazing point about Wario.
Grab game? I don't play Mac seriously... what follow ups does he has compared to Diddy, Luigi, or Ness?
Mindgames? I can see this.
Special moves? I don't think so. This might go to Diddy, Sheik, Custom Palutena, or Pikachu
Aggro playstyle or Defensive playstyle? I believe a Patience Mac is a dangerous Mac. I can see Defensive Playstyle fitting him best but he is going against Rosalina.

Speaking of Wario. This ending was hypest moment I have ever seen. https://youtu.be/HpvexYQ9rME?t=17m37s
Probably an average setup for Wario Mains.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I'd put Wario for special moves personally. Corkscrew aside (which is decent enough), Bite, Bike and Waft are all god tier.

Speaking of Wario. This ending was hypest moment I have ever seen. https://youtu.be/HpvexYQ9rME?t=17m37s
Probably an average setup for Wario Mains.

I was honestly more intrigued by Jeepy's heavy bike usage here for stage control. Except it was against Sonic so probably not the best character to do against.