Character Competitive Impressions

[Nidtendofreak]

For Grab game I'm going to throw out an honourable mention/character forget about for that category: Ike. I legit think he's top 5 in the game for Grab game, possibly 3rd best in the game behind Diddy and Luigi.

To quote what I wrote in another topic:

Ike's Dthrow starts comboing more or less right away. It combos into Nair/Fair/Bair/Uair at various percents for quite a long time. More or less the very moment it stops comboing, Uthrow starts comboing into Nair/Uair/Fair. Importantly, Uthrow combos into Uair at kill percents. And then by the time Uthrow stops comboing, if you somehow managed to not kill them by that point, and Ike with rage is looking at possible kills with Dthrow.

And then there is Fthrow and Bthrow. Instead of being for combos, both are excellent at putting the opponent in a bad position off stage. The paths are almost completely horizontal with very little gained vertically. It does not take long at all before the opponent is being tossed out far enough that they have to double jump to make it back. This makes them predictable, and in turn Ike's edgeguarding options become more and more usable.

On top of all of that, Ike has one of the best pummels in the game. Top 3 or 5 in terms of DPS. Add in the fact that at low percents you can combo into grab off of Nair or Dtilt, and ya its one of the best in the game. Its not Diddy or Luigi... but probably top 5 overall. He doesn't have a not useful throw, and always gets a good reward out of a grab.

 

[Nu~]

For specials,
Pac-Man definitely imo
The sheer versatility is stupid

With customs I'm lost. Almost everyone gets something revolutionary

 

[NachoOfCheese]

You would think Jigglypuff would have a nasty punish game but that was back when rest was a kill move

 

[mimgrim]

What if we condensed all of these factors? If you had one punish opportunity to win a supermajor tournament, which character would you pick to use?

That's... not how things work though.... You are trying to oversimplify something that shouldn't be simplified, at least not in that manner, in this first place.

For Grab game I'm going to throw out an honourable mention/character forget about for that category: Ike. I legit think he's top 5 in the game for Grab game, possibly 3rd best in the game behind Diddy and Luigi.

To quote what I wrote in another topic:

Again, I feel the need for people to make the distinction between grab game and throw game. Just because a character has good throws doesn't necessarily mean they actually have a good grab game and just because a character has a good grab game doesn't mean they have a good throw game.

 

[Mario766]

Agreed. Ike gets a lot of reward off a throw but getting the throw is harder than other characters

 

[san.]

Ike's throw game is good, but so many other characters have an easier time getting grabs, so I don't think his grab game is that great.

Jab->grab works on some characters.
Low % nair->grab.
Pivot grab is quite good, especially as an anti-air
Dash grab is decent, but has some endlag if you miss.

A sliding standing grab would complete his set a little more since he slides well in this game and would punish many attacks out of a powershield, but since Ike halts from a standing grab, the great option of sliding shield grab isn't really open to him unless he delays the grab so long that other options become more useful.

Ike's grabs aren't very dangerous at the 80-120% range when Ike has medium range or above, unless he can force a tech chase situation with bthrow. Fthrow/bthrow are decent positional throws regardless and dthrow can kill at higher percents with rage.

 

[Ffamran]

Change of pace since we praise our own characters a lot: who has the worst grab and throw games? And the worst of these:

Neutral?
Advantage?
Disadvantage?
Jab?
Tilts?
Smashes?
Aerials?
Default Specials?
Customs Specials?
Overall Specials?
Edgeguarding?
Recovery?
Defensive play?
Offensive play?
Kill options?
Rage?

I feel negative today.

 

[Nu~]

Change of pace since we praise our own characters a lot: who has the worst grab and throw games? And the worst of these:

Neutral?
Advantage?
Disadvantage?
Jab?
Tilts?
Smashes?
Aerials?
Default Specials?
Customs Specials?
Overall Specials?
Edgeguarding?
Recovery?
Defensive play?
Offensive play?
Kill options?
Rage?

I feel negative today.

Grab:

 

[Emblem Lord]

Worst disadvantage has to be Bowser or Falcon

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Bah symatrics...senatrics...er... that word I can't spell well enough to spellcheck to pick up that means slightly difference definitions behind the same word. Which ever one means good rewards off of throws Ike is good at.

D3 for worst Neutral.
Mewtwo for worst custom specials.

 

[Ffamran]

Worst disadvantage has to be Bowser or Falcon

Play as Falco, you'll cry when you realize a frame 3 Nair is almost useless in getting you out of anything and that your fall speed and air speed makes Ganondorf look like a floaty.

 

[warionumbah2]

MKs customs are garbage, HSD is good in certain MUs but 'certain' isn't good enough.

 

[PUK]

MKs customs are garbage, HSD is good in certain MUs but 'certain' isn't good enough.

You don't know what garbage custom is

 

[thehard]

Did we talk about a Wario winning Come On and Ban yet? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpvexYQ9rME&feature=youtu.be

 

[Sodo]

That's... not how things work though.... You are trying to oversimplify something that shouldn't be simplified, at least not in that manner, in this first place.

So your pick for best punish potential is Greninja then?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Good to see some Wario lovin' being spread in this thread. I'm finally not alone anymore! :3

 

[Unknownkid]

Did we talk about a Wario winning Come On and Ban yet? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpvexYQ9rME&feature=youtu.be

Not yet. But I did beat you to the punch about the Ending.

I'd put Wario for special moves personally. Corkscrew aside (which is decent enough), Bite, Bike and Waft are all god tier.

I was honestly more intrigued by Jeepy's heavy bike usage here for stage control. Except it was against Sonic so probably not the best character to do against.

Indeed. Can you share some information about Heavy Bike? How is different from Default Bike besides being slower and can bury opponents?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Indeed. Can you share some information about Heavy Bike? How is different from Default Bike besides being slower and can bury opponents?

It has more health; something like 40 HP compared to normal Bike's 24 HP. It doesn't go nearly as quickly, doesn't hit as hard against aerial opponents when you ride into someone, and gives you a much smaller jump off the Bike for recovery.

That last bit can help you follow up in some situations (you're closer to your Bike when you ditch it, so you can use it as a means of covering your approach), but ditching the Bike leaves it on the stage, which means you can't use it again until you get rid of it, which is a big problem. It's generally worse than the other two Bikes, but having hit confirms from the bury feels good.

 

[Nysyr]

Change of pace since we praise our own characters a lot: who has the worst grab and throw games? And the worst of these:

I feel negative today.

I'd probably hand Lucario the worst Jab and Custom specials. Contender for worst neutral not taking in aura to account.

Ganon is probably a shoe-in for worst disadvantaged state.

I don't think there's any discussion as to who has the worst aerials.

 

[Radical Larry]

Wat.

Seriously. Just how in the world do you abuse a small body, as the one going against the small body.

Sometimes I think you try to live to you namesake too much. e_e

His body is much larger than you think; if I remember correctly, his body is about half the size of Ike. So you can't say he has a small body; medium sized is the more correct term.

 

[Kofu]

I'd probably hand Lucario the worst Jab and Custom specials. Contender for worst neutral not taking in aura to account.

Ganon is probably a shoe-in for worst disadvantaged state.

I don't think there's any discussion as to who has the worst aerials.

It's had to say Ganon has the worst disadvantaged stage when if you mess up once you could possibly die from aerial Wizkick.

 

[Smog Frog]

ganon's only a shoe in for probably the worst neutral, his disadvantaged state is still pretty dangerous if you dont press your advantage carefully(wizkick to the face, customs on dank fists)

 

[David Viran]

It's had to say Ganon has the worst disadvantaged stage when if you mess up once you could possibly die from aerial Wizkick.

He could be the worst if they don't screw up.

 

[Ffamran]

I'd probably hand Lucario the worst Jab and Custom specials. Contender for worst neutral not taking in aura to account.

Ganon is probably a shoe-in for worst disadvantaged state.

I don't think there's any discussion as to who has the worst aerials.

Compared to Zelda or Samus's Jab? Also, aren't Piercing Aura Sphere and Snaring Aura Sphere good customs?

As for aerials, someone could argue that Zelda's are the worst as two of them must be sweet-spotted or else, Fair and Bair, while Dair is all right since it soft spikes when sour-spotted, and Uair isn't exactly fast, while Nair is her most useful one as it's a good combo and damage tool. This creates an issue where Zelda can't really approach with aerials at all and relies on them for punishing and reads more than anything else. Buuuuut, I don't play Zelda, so I don't really know enough.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

DK is pretty awful in disadvantaged position and Lucario has arguably the worst neutral game imo.

 

[LightLV]

Compared to Zelda or Samus's Jab? Also, aren't Piercing Aura Sphere and Snaring Aura Sphere good customs?

As for aerials, someone could argue that Zelda's are the worst as two of them must be sweet-spotted or else, Fair and Bair, while Dair is all right since it soft spikes when sour-spotted, and Uair isn't exactly fast, while Nair is her most useful one as it's a good combo and damage tool. This creates an issue where Zelda can't really approach with aerials at all and relies on them for punishing and reads more than anything else. Buuuuut, I don't play Zelda, so I don't really know enough.

I kind of quit zelda when I realized her aerials were terrible and that even sweetspotted foot is unsafe on block.

 

[FimPhym]

Change of pace since we praise our own characters a lot: who has the worst grab and throw games? And the worst of these:

Neutral?
Advantage?
Disadvantage?
Jab?
Tilts?
Smashes?
Aerials?
Default Specials?
Customs Specials?
Overall Specials?
Edgeguarding?
Recovery?
Defensive play?
Offensive play?
Kill options?
Rage?

I feel negative today.

Neutral: dedede. It feels easy to reset disadvantage back to neutral, but neutral is pretty much as bad as disadvantage lol.
Custom moves: dedede, who has the the impressive claim to fame of being a weak character with some bad specials except gordo, yet somehow not being improved by custom moves. Look at jet hammer and then be amazed that they designed two moves as bad as it.
Overall specials: dedede has the highest amount of useless specials across all his possible options and defaults. His sum total of good specials are gordo, default up b, rising dedede and taste test. That's it. No bouncing gordo doesnt do anything.

Besides that though I'd rate him highly in a lot of those categories! Edge guarding, advantage, disadvantage (once you stop being true combo'd), recovery, tilts, jab, grabs.

What a character of utter extremes. Slowest horizontal speed, best falling speed. Awful mobility, incredible hitboxes. Easily combo'd but nice combos, juggles, edge guards.

Edit: I'm not even complaining btw. I love how weirdo this character is, awesome design. Very sharp advantages and disadvantages.

 

[Blobface]

Neutral?
Advantage?
Disadvantage?
Jab?
Tilts?
Smashes?
Aerials?
Default Specials?
Customs Specials?(Relative to what everyone else gets)
Overall Specials?
Edgeguarding?
Recovery?(Default)
Defensive play?
Offensive play?
Kill options?
Rage?

Means I'm not sure about who would go in that category.
Edit: Forgot about Samus's jab.

 

[Deathcarter]

Change of pace since we praise our own characters a lot: who has the worst grab and throw games? And the worst of these:

Neutral?
Advantage?
Disadvantage?
Jab?
Tilts?
Smashes?
Aerials?
Default Specials?
Customs Specials?
Overall Specials?
Edgeguarding?
Recovery?
Defensive play?
Offensive play?
Kill options?
Rage?

I feel negative today.

Jab:
Tilts:
Smashes :
Aerials:
Default Specials:
Custom Specials:
Recovery:

Can't say much about the others.

 

[Ffamran]

I kind of quit zelda when I realized her aerials were terrible and that even sweetspotted foot is unsafe on block.

Does her sweet-spot Fair, Bair, and Dair even do extra shield damage?

I could see Little Mac as having bad edgeguarding, but then you figure that his Dtilt is crazy - it and Jab can confirm to KO Punch or Rising Uppercut - not to mention that his edgeguarding can just be stand at the ledge and punish. Going off the ledge is basically styling with Little Mac.

@ Blobface , Ganondorf's recovery is bad? Dude, Little Mac's saving grace is his wall jump which is higher than Dr. Mario's. Ganondorf can at least recover slightly deep and Wizard's Foot down if he's at the right angle. Little Mac is screwed if he's sent at low-high angle - like below 45 degrees and far - while Ganondorf can get close while Little Mac is basically dead.

For offensive play, I mean like going in all the time which some characters can't really do well like Zelda or Duck Hunt. They have to do something to make the opening and usually, it's through projectiles, setups, and punishes. So, Captain Falcon would have a good offensive play while Ganondorf would have a better defensive play. At the same time, Captain Falcon can be a punisher, but it might be better for him to keep on pressuring while Ganondorf might prefer capitalizing on mistakes rather than rushing in.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

DDD has waaaaaaaay too good a jab to be the worst character in neutral. Most characters have a jab that's at least decent but like Lucario and Bowser Junior have janky jabs that don't work out in their favor as much as other jabs do. At least Bowser Jr. has a dtilt that can be used in jab's place. Lucario doesn't have ... anything.

I kind of quit zelda when I realized her aerials were terrible and that even sweetspotted foot is unsafe on block.

A lot of aerials are unsafe on block in this game. Aerial approaches don't work for a lot of characters.

 

[Nu~]

Custom Specials:

Extreme monado arts & Power Vison tho?

 

[meleebrawler]

Jab:
Tilts:
Smashes :
Aerials:
Default Specials:
Custom Specials:
Recovery:

Can't say much about the others.

Palutena's defaults aren't that bad (except Counter), Warp in particular is favoured by many, both of her viable
neutral bs are a bit iffy, Reflect Barrier is just situational for projectile users.

Shulk's customs may not address weaknesses, but they do offer playstyle adjustments, particularly the
MArts customs and Advancing Air Slash. Then Shulk lands his Power Vision and everybody shuts up.

@ Blobface mentioned Jigglypuff having bad tilts, but even though they have poor range like most of her ground moves,
Ftilt and Utilt are both quite fast and Utilt can even lead into things. Only Dtilt is suspect.

The worst advantage state is possibly Zelda's, all her aerials except Nair hinge on the opponent
messing up in some way so her string potential is very limited.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Jigglypuff's tilts are garbage. Any time F-Tilting or D-Tilting is better spent Dash Attacking (for extra power and better speed) or Jabbing (for potential follow-ups). U-Tilt would be better if it had better start-up, but it serves largely the same purpose as U-Smash and rising aerials.

 

[Antonykun]

Grab:

at least he has a kill throw not like

 

[Mr. Johan]

Grab/Throws:

God why.

 

[Antonykun]

I would like to give worst foxtrot to the Miis all that range and all that cooldown means that they are just giving themselves to the opponent

 

[Spinosaurus]

at least he has a kill throw not like

I thought BThrow killed, does it not?

 

[Quickhero]

Marth's jab can now combo to DB and potentially even f-tilt when hitting an opponent in the air and is now actually a move that Marth doesn't have too much risk in doing if failed. It's only really risky is if you're right next to the opponent but you shouldn't be doing that anyways. (I'm pretty sure Lucina's jab can be used the same way but I'm not 100% sure)

I honestly can't really think of many good things about Ganondorf's jab though, haha. It's not strong enough to kill and it doesn't combo to anything while actually being one of the more punishable jabs in the game. The only thing I can really say about Ganondorf's jab positively is that it isn't something that turns Ganondorf into a ridiculously broken character. I shudder at the thought of Ganondorf having true combos.

 

[Luco]

Change of pace since we praise our own characters a lot: who has the worst grab and throw games? And the worst of these:

Neutral?
Advantage?
Disadvantage?
Jab?
Tilts?
Smashes?
Aerials?
Default Specials?
Customs Specials?
Overall Specials?
Edgeguarding?
Recovery?
Defensive play?
Offensive play?
Kill options?
Rage?

I feel negative today.

I love the idea. I bet you'll see a lot more variety in people's lists than 'what do you think is the best in...'

From what I believe:

Neutral: (although is probably close)
Advantage: I dunno. Maybe because although he's great at waiting for you to come back from being in disadvantage, he doesn't really follow you while you're in disadvantage. Dunno really)
Disadvantage: - though doesn't have a pretty sucky time here too?
Jab: - but yeah ganny's ain't great.
Tilts: Unquestionably . I think the idea of Jiggly DA-ing every time she could tilt to be impractical. There are occasions where tilts will be safer for her. Pally on the other hand...
Smashes: I'm so sorry my boy, but - although is not very far behind
Aerials: This guy is going to cop a lot of stuff in this list, isn't he?
Default specs: (literally the only thing holding him back from being ludicrously good. Probably.)
Custom specs: I still feel there's a lot we don't know here. Are we discussing whether a character should be using their customs or not btw, or is it an actual 'which is the worst kit'? (the answer might fill both criteria) - I guess someone like might not get too much out of his customs, but I don't really have a good answer.
Overall specs: Prooobably back to if customs don't really help him that much.
Edge-guarding: Difficult. I'm tempted to say again. But, and I know this is out of left field, I actually find it difficult to edge-guard well with , because offstage projectiles take a bit of time to set up, his aerials aren't impressive if not spaced well (and have a ton of lag) which means he'll often be the one trying to recover himself if he screws up, which is not a position he wants to be in.
Recovery: Yeahhhhhhhh no real question here. .
Defensive play: Coming out of left field here, but I think it's one of the heavies actually. Probably one of these four, if I had to take my guess - .
Offensive play: I'm thinking would probably take this spot?
Kill options: Uair, Bair and Can are semi decent options for , but I think he probably still has it worse than and , who have good kill options if they can just get the right setup.
Rage: lol enjoy Fair now. I kinda guess still wouldn't enjoy rage too much either because it affects his throws just as much as before? Funny how the top tiers hate this more.
Grab/Throw game: I guess?

The more I went through that the more I hated myself, the more I just thought "Luco you're so misinformed and wrong." Take my list with 1000 grains of salt.