Character Competitive Impressions

[Sinister Slush]

Man are people gullible to bait these days?

 

[Genix]

Larry (DEHF) is really good with fox. Nakat is decent too.

The Mario Falcon MU is really fun to watch, both characters have a dynamic punish and off-stage game.
Max actually did pretty decent against ally

 

[thehard]

I honestly thought Ally was going to run circles around Max but he held his own really well. Could have taken that last game.

 

[Anomilus]

Who's watching CT right now? Best Mario vs. Best Sonic. This is meta-defining!

Hmm... *tunes into clashtournaments*

Ah, so it's still going. Loser's Finals...

"Sees 'Easton, PA'"

O__O WAAAT!?!?!

B-b-but I LIVE in Easton PA! There can't be a major Smash tournament going on in MY TOWN of all places! Not today!!

 

[Sodo]

I want to hear peoples' opinions on the following characters:

Sonic. He's a nightmare. I think he has the potential to be the best character in the game.

Fox and Falco. Obviously very different from each other and not as dominant as in Melee but still potentially dangerous. I'm wondering if Falco has any chance of being viable, specifically. I've heard differing opinions.

Wario. I feel like he's underrated in a lot of aspects. Good KO power and aerial ability, along with insane recovery abilities on the bike.

Meta Knight. I've picked him up a little bit and he is definitely not where he was in Brawl but I still feel he has a lot of potential.

 

[Teshie U]

But does any Fox have good results with solo fox, proving his viability?

Zero and NAKAT both use top tier grabbers when the stakes are high.

@ Sinister Slush go away

 

[Road Death Wheel]

But does any Fox have good results with solo fox, proving his viability?

Zero and NAKAT both use top tier grabbers when the stakes are high.

@ Sinister Slush go away

there is no consistant solid solo results for anyone other than diddy. We even see shiek is more effective with a secondary to cover certain things.

 

[Luco]

Man are people gullible to bait these days?

What's new? =D

I personally feel Falco can really hold his own, actually. Like his Dair tech isn't a meta-changing ordeal but he still feels solid. I also feel customs help him quite a bit. I wish I knew more about him, except his jab makes me freakishly mad.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

What's new? =D

I personally feel Falco can really hold his own, actually. Like his Dair tech isn't a meta-changing ordeal but he still feels solid. I also feel customs help him quite a bit. I wish I knew more about him, except his jab makes me freakishly mad.

though his dair tech does give him a awsome 60 percent d throw combo.

 

[Ffamran]

Speaking of which, A2 mentioned this which is the first time I heard of using Falco's full hop Dair.

D-air is fine when you read a low recovery. Or you can do what I've been experimenting with and learn the spacing for autocanceled D-air (requires fullhop height).

Seriously guys, autocanceled D-air is maaaaad underrated. Especially when in juggle situations, you can use the massive lingering hitbox to cover options, and this can actually hit most characters on the ground aside from the shortest ones. If they actually get hit by the end of the move, you can get legitimate combos from it.

Then I asked around and I got this. Thanks, Lavani.

Brief testing with fullhop dair suggests it sets up grabs at 0-mid% against a grounded opponent, might have different applications if it hits them in the air idk

I really want to believe something like fh dair>jc sideB>bair would work at kill percent but I couldn't get it to combo ;_;

EDIT: I guess fh dair>jc sideB>bair doesn't combo but if they miss the tech after dair it can work at certain percents

fh dair>uthrow>uair(>nair/bair) is what I was mostly looking at (~40%), which does seem to work at lower percents even if they're in the air when hit with dair, so long as they aren't far off the ground. If you hit them higher up I don't think there are followups available.

@ Ffamran
Things with fh dair I've found:

fh dair>jab
fh dair>ftilt
fh dair>dsmash (23%; at 40% on Ike)
fh dair>grab>stuff (at 0~60%; until it starts launching)
fh dair>dtilt>RAR bair (30% damage; at 60% on Ike)
fh dair>jc sideB>bair (28%; at ~100% on Ike, if they don't tech the dair)
fh dair trip>coffee break>whatever your heart desires (0~60%; until it starts launching)

 

[Antonykun]

Man are people gullible to bait these days?

I personally like to discuss things in a character competitive DISCUSSION thread

I want to hear peoples' opinions on the following characters:

Sonic. He's a nightmare. I think he has the potential to be the best character in the game.

Fox and Falco. Obviously very different from each other and not as dominant as in Melee but still potentially dangerous. I'm wondering if Falco has any chance of being viable, specifically. I've heard differing opinions.

Wario. I feel like he's underrated in a lot of aspects. Good KO power and aerial ability, along with insane recovery abilities on the bike.

Meta Knight. I've picked him up a little bit and he is definitely not where he was in Brawl but I still feel he has a lot of potential.

Wario has Smash 4 Falco/MetaKnight Syndrome where most players looked at the nerfs and saw a bad character, but he's pretty solid.
Wario's biggest strength is stalling with his lingering hitboxes.
I firmly believe MK and Pikachu are the best characters in the game but you have to be ON POINT with them or else you lose. That's why diddy is used by everyone and their mom, he's so forgiving as a character.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Custom tourny starting now folks.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I personally like to discuss things in a character competitive DISCUSSION thread

Half the time it's not even discussions, just tier list talk or random smash stuff that isn't competitive discussion.

 

[Sodo]

Wario has Smash 4 Falco/MetaKnight Syndrome where most players looked at the nerfs and saw a bad character, but he's pretty solid.
Wario's biggest strength is stalling with his lingering hitboxes.
I firmly believe MK and Pikachu are the best characters in the game but you have to be ON POINT with them or else you lose. That's why diddy is used by everyone and their mom, he's so forgiving as a character.

I'm interested, can you expand on your Meta Knight opinion? That's bold. I love Meta Knight and I think he has huge potential, but I never thought of him in that way.

EDIT: I agree with you regarding Pikachu. He's got all the tools to be the best character in the game.

 

[Cenizas]

Custom tourny starting now folks.

Can I get a link please with a cherry on top?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Can I get a link please with a cherry on top?

http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky

 

[Vincent21]

RIP Nairo, on to watching the custom event I guesssss!

 

[Kahnu]

Can I get a link please with a cherry on top?

nice profile picture

 

[thehard]

Crazy GF, and I got my wish because Ally started using his gimping tools more

 

[Emblem Lord]

So anyone wanna talk about how there are no good Fox players and he isn't viable?

Me and NAKAT talked about this very briefly when the game first dropped.

He swore Fox was hella nasty and I'm like..dude...HOW DOES HE ATTACK AND NOT GET MAULED?!

 

[Yonder]

Are the Pits high tier or is it just Nairo being amazing? He makes the Diddy MU look actually even.

Both Pit and Lame Pit have always been high tier, no one really debated otherwise [Well, the people at my college think they are low; I think they are crazy.] Broken recovery, solid projectile, they can do basically everything...just not perfectly. Jack of all trades, master of none [cept recovery]. Sounds high tier to me.

 

[HeroMystic]

Nairo got destroyed, which was surprising.

Ally really showing time and time again that all it takes to be godly with Mario is solid hit confirms and solid DI reads.

 

[Ffamran]

I'm not going to say much about Sonic, Wario, and Meta Knight since I know little about them. Sonic, however, has shown results, but I think it might have been matchups in recent, big tournaments that screwed him over. I don't know how many Rosalinas 6wX fought, but I feel like he was caught off guard when Luma saved Dabuz when it tanked 6wX's Uair and Dabuz was able to get a Luma Uair to kill 6wX instead. At the same time, I don't know Sonic's MU with Rosalina. For all we know, it might be favorable to Sonic, but 6wX didn't know what to do exactly. The other thing is that I only know of 2 Sonic players, but I only remember 6wX.

Meta Knight just got a recent spotlight like Pikachu. Unfortunately, I don't know who play him and there aren't any major results yet.

Now, on Fox, I'm going to call a Captain Falcon syndrome. There are a lot of Foxes and Captains running around, but not a lot of them win many tournaments. I remember Nakat's Fox winning against 6wX a while back on Xanadu, but 6wX SD'd the last match and as for the Capt., well, just look at any tournament big or small and you'll see him there. Whether he wins or not, it doesn't matter. It's like seeing Billy Joel walk into a classy bar, play Piano Man, and then leave without anyone acknowledging him or knowing what the hell just happened.

Falco suffers from the same thing Meta Knight, Peach, Wario, Ike, and many other characters do: lack of results and representation. The only difference is he has this to add to his reputation: getting bodied at every tournament. Wario at least shows promise and people know he's a solid character, but don't know how to play him exactly or something - maybe it's the garlic breath and smelliness that holds people back. It's the same with Peach except there's even fewer people playing her because she's so technical. I only know about Dark.Pch, SlayerZ, lloD, and Pink Fresh, but I don't remember anyone of them showing up at major tournaments. For Ike, I don't know. Seriously, Ryuga showed Ike can hold his own against Rosalina, the supposed OP character at the time, but then everything just dropped. At Apex, weather, its rules, and other reasons made Ikes not want to go.

Back to Falco, recent matches had people switching out or getting bodied. Keitaro usually sticks with Diddy or starts with Falco and switches to Diddy regardless of his performance as Falco while Pawclaw I think said that his opponent said he would have won had he not switched to DK. So, to many, that just seems like Falco is a horribly nonviable character where even Zelda shows more promise than him. But here's the kicker: nobody really knows how to play as Falco or rather nobody had to play SSB4 Falco. Every veteran in this game can be played similarly, but not identically to past games. Fox is still Fox since 64, but tweaked with each game's engine, Marth still has to space, Link still walls out people with projectiles, and Captain Falcon stills goes all out with combos. Newcomers also have an idea around them like Duck Hunt is a projectile, zoning, and trapping character, Rosalina & Luma act as a puppeteer character, and Mega Man feels like playing Mega Man games.

I'm going to be wrong about this, but in Melee, Falco had a good zoning tool with his Blaster, a fast meteor, a Reflector that launched, and his mobility didn't matter because of wavedashing. While in Brawl, Falco had a godplayer Blaster that was pretty much broken, a fast meteor, and didn't have to approach because he forced approaches with Blaster or just outright racked up damage with it and killed you. Nobody had to play Falco up close like Mario, Ganondorf, or Fox. Brawl Meta Knight was insane; SSB4 Meta Knight is toned down and can still be played similarly. He doesn't glide around like an annoying Keese in The Legend of Zelda, but he still combos, juggles, and goes off-stage if need be. Sonic still runs circles around people and can combo out of Spin Dash/Charge, use Spring Jump to get height afterward, and Uair people to death.

Imagine if, hypothetically, Ryu didn't have his Hadouken in Street Fighter V. What's Ryu supposed to do now? He lost the ability to give himself a breather and the ability to zone. All he has left is his CQC game. Or we could go to Splinter Cell and remove night missions and and any form of hiding in the shadows. What's Sam Fisher supposed to do now? That isn't Splinter Cell and Sam just lost his ability to reliably hide in "plain" sight. Or remove Samus's Arm Cannon. What's Samus supposed to do now? Sure, she can kick *** without her Arm Cannon as shown in SSB and Other M, but it's not Samus and it would incredibly difficult for her to try and fight naturally armed aliens with just hand-to-hand combat powered up by her suit. Or Bayonetta without her... whatever powers. That's SSB4 Falco. One change completely changes his play style and makes it even more difficult to play him like before which is natural and which is why some players main different characters per game to prevent themselves from playing Melee Sheik in SSB4 or Project M Link in 64.

The early and current results and impressions all boiled down to: "Falco sucks donkey balls". That's if you play Falco like in Melee or Brawl. Recent videos and recent discussions, all had Falco being played differently or advised to play differently. Should we footstool Fair now, F-throw to Falco Phantasm at early percents, more U-throws instead of D-throws for combos/follow-ups, full hop Dairs, RAR Bairs, foxtrots, perfect pivots, reverse Up Smash, Explosive Blaster for edgeguarding, aerial Reflector Void kills, footsie/spacing game, etc. It was more about how do we make Falco's CQC game even more dangerous. Falco is one of the stronger and faster hitting characters in the game who has a good off-stage and ground game, but one of the harsher disadvantages.

Challenging Falco vertically is not a good idea since he has the best jump by default - Jump Art Shulk has a better jump, right? - so, approaching from the air or falling down isn't a good idea when Falco can reset that by using Uair, using Fair and Bair to land a kill, Nair to rack up damage, or Dair meteor someone back to the stage. I don't know much about pivots, perfect pivots, and foxtrots, but Shaya said that Falco's options out of those are good like foxtrot, fast fall short hops or something. Shofu fought Zef who perfect pivoted a Down Smash and killed him.

The only issue right now is results, how to use Falco in SSB4, and a bad reputation. Mii Swordfighter might be the worse character in the game from what I heard, but since Mii SF doesn't get a lot of exposure like Falco for obvious reasons, the masses won't be saying, "Wow! Mii Swordfighter sucks!", and there won't be a lot of misconceptions like people still thinking that Falco only has Side Smash and Bair as his kill moves. Sheik doesn't have a lot of kill moves or early kill moves and she's doing fine! Even Zelda, the notorious character considered low tier in every game doesn't get what Falco does. Hell, she gets more of, "Zelda could be doing better," or, "The player made some mistakes," or praise. Falco wins a match and people cry how the opponent was trash, Falco loses a match and people cry how he sucks, and when Falco gets picked, people cry that the player is making the worst decision of their life after playing Sonic '06. Seriously, one match where Keitaro picked Falco and one of the commentators was like, "Falco?! What is he doing? I want Keitaro to win!"

 

[Emblem Lord]

Captain Falcon has pokes, hit confirms, far better traps and far better edge guarding.

Fox has better recovery and is better at dealing with traps but how does he hit people are even attempt to control them?

 

[Antonykun]

I'm interested, can you expand on your Meta Knight opinion? That's bold. I love Meta Knight and I think he has huge potential, but I never thought of him in that way.

When ever I think of MK i think of what Can't He do? And other than projectiles, I think nothing
His advantage state is crazy with his Shuttle Loop combo, His disadvantage borders on non existent with his multiple jumps and Dimension Cape not even Villager can gimp him. And those multiple jump and fast dash with powerful rewards off said dash makes his neutral pretty strong too.
But the catch is you have to deal with such a short range and a lack of frame 3 moves (though he has a frame 4 d-air and the rest of his moves are pretty fast too) and moves that require pressicion. If you don't play him perfectly (Hyperbole but I lack a better word) then he's going to seem mediocre, otherwise you get a badass hiding in plain view.

 

[Ffamran]

Captain Falcon has pokes, hit confirms, far better traps and far better edge guarding.

Fox has better recovery and is better at dealing with traps but how does he hit people are even attempt to control them?

He starts talking and everyone's ears start to bleed.

I don't know. Isn't his speed the reason why he can approach well? I never played Fox seriously, but he was my crutch, "let's mess around" character in previous SSBs.

 

[HeroMystic]

****in hell, Will using customs DK and giving a show.

 

[ROOOOY!]

@ Ffamran I don't think Sonics yet understand the Rosa matchup, as many characters don't fully. As for matchups in general, the nature of the character gives to him not having polarised matchups, most are kinda evenish.

 

[David Viran]

Nairo got destroyed, which was surprising.

Ally really showing time and time again that all it takes to be godly with Mario is solid hit confirms and solid DI reads.

Did you see the almost comeback? Nairo got close at the end there.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

****in hell, Will using customs DK and giving a show.

he made rosa look like a garbage character right there.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

On that note though Luma Warp Rosa is way more interesting imo. That aerial chase was pretty.

 

[HeroMystic]

Did you see the almost comeback? Nairo got close at the end there.

He did. Doesn't mean he didn't get wrecked though. Five games in a row, then brought it back with ZSS in two close matches, then got destroyed by Ally's Diddy to close it out.

 

[David Viran]

He did. Doesn't mean he didn't get wrecked though. Five games in a row, then brought it back with ZSS in two close matches, then got destroyed by Ally's Diddy to close it out.

If he didn't miss that banana punish that match would have been completely different.

 

[Nu~]

Wow...that cyclone is even crazier than I thought.
Made rosa look like she was a lv 0 cpu

 

[TTTTTsd]

Kong Cyclone is a ridiculously godlike move. Not broken but damn does it make DK so much better.

The lagless landing on BF with it is a nice plus too

 

[RobinOnDrugs]

Donkey Kong is definitely a different character when customs are made legal. The ape just flies around the stage like he's a lightweight character lol

 

[Ffamran]

Customs Wii Fit Trainer, though.

 

[Quickhero]

Well, Shadow Blade officially has its uses, that Shadow Blade to grab MM vs Kirby was super cool to see.

THEN THERE IS SHADOW BLADE TO UP SMASH ASDJAKDHADJH.

 

[HeroMystic]

Customs Megaman.... oh my god.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Woah we may have to be talking about custom mega later...