Character Competitive Impressions

[meleebrawler]

Her grab game is highly overrated, d-throw to fair is the only thing that's guaranteed and it doesn't do that much, great for positioning but the damage isn't that much. When you factor in that she's got pretty awful ending lag on her grab the risk reward ratio of her grab game adds up to meh.

Good thing she has ways to ensure that it lands, which is more than can be said for most characters.
Diddy's grab game wouldn't be as threatening if he didn't have his banana.

Zelda has other tools.

Like...?

Zelda has to make hard reads IN ORDER TO DO ANY REAL DAMAGE, let alone kill outside edgeguards.
Her only real safe damage building tools are jab and her tilts, and there are plenty of moves that outrange
them, whilst Zelda doesn't have the mobility to compensate. It's even worse in the air where all but her Nair
are "go big or go home options". You think Palu's grab game isn't good, well at least she can use other moves
if they DI incorrectly and she doesn't have too much rage. Zelda gets Nair from Dthrow and that's it for the most
part. And while her jab can lead into grab like Palu's, it stops working at higher percents unlike Palu's.

 

[Jaguar360]

Like...?

Zelda has to make hard reads IN ORDER TO DO ANY REAL DAMAGE, let alone kill outside edgeguards.
Her only real safe damage building tools are jab and her tilts, and there are plenty of moves that outrange
them, whilst Zelda doesn't have the mobility to compensate. It's even worse in the air where all but her Nair
are "go big or go home options". You think Palu's grab game isn't good, well at least she can use other moves
if they DI incorrectly and she doesn't have too much rage. Zelda gets Nair from Dthrow and that's it for the most
part. And while her jab can lead into grab like Palu's, it stops working at higher percents unlike Palu's.

Zelda actually gets U-air from d-throw at mid-high percents, which is a dangerous kill setup and still does good damage if it happens at too low of a percentage to kill. She can also bait air dodges by doing d-throw to b-air at mid percents instead of n-air to mix things up. B-throw also kills.

While Zelda's neutral is poor overall and definitely much worse than Palutena's, she has options. Jab, while one of the slowest in the game, is a fairly quick option with decent range and leads to a guaranteed dash grab or dash attack at low-mid percents. F-tilt has good range and about average speed, allowing it to function nicely as a keepout move of sorts. D-tilt is fairly quick and sends out Zelda's foot enough to be useful and leads into all sorts of things.

Zelda generally plays a more defensive and reactive game anyway and has the tools for doing so for the most part. Naryu's Love is a decent OoS option that doubles as a reflector and roll-catcher, Farore's Wind is a dangerous punisher both OoS and at range (for whiffed attacks/laggy projectiles) and is an excellent recovery. Her projectiles are both poor in neutral in most cases, but they can function against slower characters at long range.

I think that Zelda's weaknesses were a bit overstated here; she's a flawed character with her poor movement, poor neutral, generally slow attacking options, laggy projectiles, and tall frame, but her strengths are great as well. Farore's Wind is one of the best moves in the game and is essentially the crux of Zelda's gameplay. The amazing kill power, punishing options, defensive options and recovery that it provides is just phenomenal. All of her aerials kill well aside from n-air and they all have decent speed. Her grab game is solid and the grab itself has above-average range and isn't too laggy. Her tilts are all solid and she has good options out of jab. I'm not too sure if she's better than Palu or not without customs, but the comparison is a bit flawed.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

They don't play alike because ganon is too slow. If ganon had the same dash speed and walk speed ad falcon they'd be the same character. A lot of their moves are extremely similar. Someone brought up shotos earlier they don't play anything a like but they're still grouped together.

Just drop it already lol

 

[Smooth Criminal]

They don't play alike because ganon is too slow. If ganon had the same dash speed and walk speed ad falcon they'd be the same character. A lot of their moves are extremely similar. Someone brought up shotos earlier they don't play anything a like but they're still grouped together.

Sure they share similar moves, but their kits are nothing alike. The contrast is even more apparent when you bring up their respective character attributes, like frame data, hitboxes, and the like.

Go on and try to play Sagat like Ryu, dude.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Vincent21]

Then how is ganon a worse falcon?
If they don't play alike how can one be better than the other?
Also If Falcon had Ganon's moves...dear lord

Hell if he had his own set but just had ganon's usmash

 

[Blobface]

Hell if he had his own set but just had ganon's usmash

Oh god no.
Can you imagine Captain falcon sliding all over the stage doing the Can-can? cause that's what that would look like.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Then how is ganon a worse falcon?
If they don't play alike how can one be better than the other?
Also If Falcon had Ganon's moves...dear lord

*sigh* You do realize with your post you just basically said tiers don't matter and don't exist. You do realize thay in an attempt to make me look stupid yoy said if characters don't play a like one can't be better than the other......Based on this post we should close the thread and no longer discuss characters anymore and there's no point of a tier list either.

Sure they share similar moves, but their kits are nothing alike. The contrast is even more apparent when you bring up their respective character attributes, like frame data, hitboxes, and the like.

Go on and try to play Sagat like Ryu, dude.

Smooth Criminal

I think Ryu and Sagat have similar playstyles. They're both zoning characters. Now attempting to play Sagat like Ken is something else entirely.

Getting back to the smash aspect there's a lot of similar moves between the two. Am I suggesting that knowing how to play one you're able to play the other? No. What I am saying is that ganon is a worse captain falcon and because of their similar tools falcon invalidates Ganon. If you don't want to call them clones w.e. but they are and ganon is a bad falcon clone.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

...I'm not saying they aren't clones.

I'm not even gonna bother with this anymore.

Again, try playing Sagat like Ryu. Now read between the lines of what I just said.

Smooth Criminal

 

[FullMoon]

*sigh* You do realize with your post you just basically said tiers don't matter and don't exist. You do realize thay in an attempt to make me look stupid yoy said if characters don't play a like one can't be better than the other......Based on this post we should close the thread and no longer discuss characters anymore and there's no point of a tier list either.

Okay. That is one way to take a post the wrong way.

Ganondorf and Captain Falcon are completely different. They might share a few moves, but they playstyle is completely different. If you're going to judge Ganondorf, it should be on Ganondorf's own merits, not in comparison to Captain Falcon. That's probably what @ Antonykun meant.

Ganondorf plays a heavy bait-and-punish style where he has to predict the opponent in order to make the most use of his power. Captain Falcon plays a more rushdown style of fight and is very aggressive and is more of a combo character. Falcon might be the better character overall, but if you're saying Ganondorf is a worse Falcon then you might as well say Kirby is a worse Falcon since he's of a lower tier as well.

This pretty much reminds me of when people said Greninja was a worse Sheik just because they were both ninjas with a similar up-air despite they being nothing alike in how they play.

You really shouldn't be comparing them because their gameplan is completely different. Unlike Dark Pit/Lucina who play exactly like the characters they're clones of, and Dr.Mario still has a very similar playstyle to Mario, just slower and more powerful, but not to the extent of those two.

 

[Smog Frog]

they're semiclones actually

also brotip you should really stop because you're making yourself look bat**** ********

 

[Vincent21]

@ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY Cloning implies playstyle though.

LIke earlier when people were describing Dr. Mario as a worse Luigi that was more apt than Ganon as a worse Falcon.

They're both hitting the same checkpoints (hard time getting in, accomplishing a lot once in, using projectiles to somewhat salve a difficulty getting in) in their playstyles.

Like for a character to be a worse version of someone else means to be invalidated. Best example is Marth Lucina. Ideally you're doing the same things with them, or rather YOU WANT TO, but you can't because Lucina has all the same problems but none of the tradeoffs (the most important being the early % respect commanded by tipper smashing, the 70% fear).

Ganon and Falcon are going to have fundamentally different match-up charts because they handle situations differently. They don't hit the same checkpoints. What does Falcon do? Get in, get combos, get kills. What does Ganon do, stay out, space aerials, punish approaching, and abuse the respect early kill %s force on his opponent.

Going back, what does Dr. Mario do? Work hard to get in, do good damage once he's in, and invests in his off-stage game. What does Luigi do? Work hard to get in, do good damage once he's in, and invests in his off-stage game.

The descriptions match, and their troubles (mobility and therefore approach) are the same. You can talk better of worse versions of each moves. It's about their gameplan, not their moves :v If the gameplan doesn't sync, then they simply don't compare that way. So these two don't.

To expand on that, if you DID give Ganon some Falcon-level movement speed, if ANYTHING he'd become, like, a better Marth :v
Can you imagine that fair coming at you with those aerial speeds? The amount of space he could control while keeping his 2nd jump? The fact that he'd have a dashing command grab to deal with the ground game issues the hurt other hitbox zoners when they incur landing lag? Like he'd be a super version of a sword character. hitboxes for days at the speed of YES.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

Her grab game is highly overrated, d-throw to fair is the only thing that's guaranteed and it doesn't do that much, great for positioning but the damage isn't that much.

D-throw>RAR B-air also works, although it's difficult to pull off. The damage off that is decent enough. D1 frequently talks about using it to take stocks, so there's that.

I'm not saying Palutena fair or jab is bad, they are both awesome. But they are just about the only awesome things she has.

Um, B-air and Dash Attack are pretty good too. B-air is quick, has low enough landing lag to be a useful SHFF aerial, does decent damage (12%), and is completely unbeatable. DA shares that trait, and while the end lag is kinda high, it's her fastest move on the ground startup-wise. Proper use of these two moves, along with F-air and Jab, can make things difficult for some characters.

Her damage output overall is highly mediocre, she relies on incremental damage, as she lacks viable comboes outside of d-throw>fair

D-throw>F-air isn't all she has. In addition to D-throw>RAR B-air which I mentioned earlier, Jab>Grab, Jab>Jab and Jab>Instant DA seem to work at certain %s, depending on the spacing F-air can combo into itself, Jab, DA, and B-air at low to mid %s, and while we may not use it much, D-air combos into Jab near 0% and B-air from 20%-90% (depending on the character) if it hits a grounded opponent.

She also can't kill unless she gets a hard read, hits with bair by the ledge, or gets her opponent to a percentage where dash attack kills (gl on that with her damage output).

Jab>Smash Attack can net you a kill at high % (around 110% and beyond), although I'm unsure if it's actually a combo (The people I play with say they can't do anything about it, but they might be mistaken). B-throw is pretty decent near ledges, as is U-throw on platforms.

She definitely isn't great without customs and she's probably bottom half, but I remain unconvinced that she's trash. The very few Palutena players that exist are placing well enough in tournaments and a lot of them think she's decent. I've spoken to quite a few of these people, as well as people with impressive Palutenas in their region, and the majority agree with me.

 

[Ffamran]

Just drop it already lol

So, drop it like it's hot?

All right, enough of me being silly. How about this? We'll talk about the whole Dr. Mario/Luigi and Captain Falcon/Ganondorf thing later. It seems like it's getting nowhere and I fear we might get a bit too heated with this discussion.

How about we move onto something else like Meta Knight and Olimar, which characters benefits the most from foxtrots, dash dances, pivots, and perfect pivots, or something else you all would want to talk about like recent findings of customs use or how to counter specific customs like Kong Cyclone.

There's also this recent video of customs DK vs. Palutena: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSEChdC0Sag.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

So, drop it like it's hot?

All right, enough of me being silly. How about this? We'll talk about the whole Dr. Mario/Luigi and Captain Falcon/Ganondorf thing later. It seems like it's getting nowhere and I fear we might get a bit too heated with this discussion.

How about we move onto something else like Meta Knight and Olimar, which characters benefits the most from foxtrots, dash dances, pivots, and perfect pivots, or something else you all would want to talk about like recent findings of customs use or how to counter specific customs like Kong Cyclone.

There's also this recent video of customs DK vs. Palutena: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSEChdC0Sag.

Lol dk is just to much.

 

[Antonykun]

*sigh* You do realize with your post you just basically said tiers don't matter and don't exist. You do realize thay in an attempt to make me look stupid yoy said if characters don't play a like one can't be better than the other......Based on this post we should close the thread and no longer discuss characters anymore and there's no point of a tier list either.



I think Ryu and Sagat have similar playstyles. They're both zoning characters. Now attempting to play Sagat like Ken is something else entirely.

Getting back to the smash aspect there's a lot of similar moves between the two. Am I suggesting that knowing how to play one you're able to play the other? No. What I am saying is that ganon is a worse captain falcon and because of their similar tools falcon invalidates Ganon. If you don't want to call them clones w.e. but they are and ganon is a bad falcon clone.

For the record there's a difference between:
"Ganon is a worse Falcon"
and
"Ganon is worse than Falcon"
I argued against the former you assumed I was arguing the latter.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Keep in mind that all of Falcon's default specials are worse than Ganon's equivalents, except perhaps their Up-Bs, and even then the utility of the uppercut for deterring ledge trumps and the like probably puts it over the top. Ganon's customs are also much better than Falcon's. Ganon's Ftilt, Usmash, Dash Attack, and Dair are all definitely better. Uair is also better for killing and edgeguarding, though not as good for comboing. Fair is completely different and has a much better hitbox. Nair is significantly more powerful. The main advantages Falcon has outside of mobility are a vastly superior Jab and Dash Grab. Falcon's better overall mainly because of his Jab and the fact that mobility tends to be the most important thing in Smash, but Ganon definitely has a number of advantages over Falcon.

 

[Nabbitnator]

D-throw>RAR B-air also works, although it's difficult to pull off. The damage off that is decent enough. D1 frequently talks about using it to take stocks, so there's that.



Um, B-air and Dash Attack are pretty good too. B-air is quick, has low enough landing lag to be a useful SHFF aerial, does decent damage (12%), and is completely unbeatable. DA shares that trait, and while the end lag is kinda high, it's her fastest move on the ground startup-wise. Proper use of these two moves, along with F-air and Jab, can make things difficult for some characters.



D-throw>F-air isn't all she has. In addition to D-throw>RAR B-air which I mentioned earlier, Jab>Grab, Jab>Jab and Jab>Instant DA seem to work at certain %s, depending on the spacing F-air can combo into itself, Jab, DA, and B-air at low to mid %s, and while we may not use it much, D-air combos into Jab near 0% and B-air from 20%-90% (depending on the character) if it hits a grounded opponent.



Jab>Smash Attack can net you a kill at high % (around 110% and beyond), although I'm unsure if it's actually a combo (The people I play with say they can't do anything about it, but they might be mistaken). B-throw is pretty decent near ledges, as is U-throw on platforms.

She definitely isn't great without customs and she's probably bottom half, but I remain unconvinced that she's trash. The very few Palutena players that exist are placing well enough in tournaments and a lot of them think she's decent. I've spoken to quite a few of these people, as well as people with impressive Palutenas in their region, and the majority agree with me.

I believe you can get out of her jab> smash unless she delays the smash for an option select.

 

[David Viran]

http://gameslines.challonge.com/SSB4CWC

It says it's live where is the stream at?

 

[DanGR]

http://gameslines.challonge.com/SSB4CWC

It says it's live where is the stream at?

This looks like where it would be if it were streamed:
http://www.twitch.tv/gameslines
or here: http://www.twitch.tv/gameslines2
But neither is live, atm.

 

[David Viran]

This looks like where it would be if it were streamed:
http://www.twitch.tv/gameslines
or here: http://www.twitch.tv/gameslines2
But neither is live, atm.

That's what I don't get. Why does it say live? It says leon and abadango were supposed to face to.

 

[Radical Larry]

vs
Ganondorf wins, 8:2.
While Bowser has the ranged attacks, yes, Ganondorf makes up for very quick and relentless punishes, and a faster air game than that of Bowser; when comparing attack speed, Ganondorf has a faster air game thanks to his U-Air and B-Air having faster start up, end and landing lag, as well as N-Air being a more efficient attack with Dorf than Bowser.

Ganondorf's ability to jump lower than Bowser offers him more assistance to attack him, since Ganondorf has more options than Bowser in mid-air, thus a more reliable air game. As well, if Ganondorf is launched upward by Bowser, Bowser doesn't have many options aside from U-Air, while Ganondorf has his Down Special, which, if hit well, will KO Bowser off the top of the stage.

Ganondorf also has a far better combo and grab game than Bowser; Ganondorf can at least combo with his throws, and has the most powerful throws in the game, allowing him to get in on his opponents. While some may argue Ganondorf has a worse grab game, remember, only Ganondorf's grabbing is bad due to his slow speed.

Bowser does have advantages, such as his faster ground and air speed, as well as his weight and size and even recovery. However, Ganondorf will defeat him in major categories, such as edge-guarding, due to Bowser having less edge-guarding capability than Ganondorf, as well as Ganondorf beating out Bowser due to the outrageous size of the latter.

In fact, it's Bowser's outrageous size that allows Ganondorf to wail on him, since Bowser has a terrible time against Ganondorf if the latter uses Flame Choke. Bowser is easily a heavy target against Ganondorf, obviously.

In terms of damage and knockback, the clear winner is Ganondorf, with the astonishing fact that he can hit Bowser with two hits of the U-Smash in succession and still wail on him with a combo for ludicrous damage. Ganondorf also has the immense knockback and capabilities of KO'ing Bowser earlier than vice versa.

In terms of reads, Bowser is easier to read and punish than Ganondorf. Ganondorf has that unexpected nature that Bowser doesn't, and thanks to the IASA frames and automatic transcending priority provided with Ganon's U-Smash, he could use that, use another U-Smash or play mind games with characters all day long.

Lastly, Bowser only has one shield breaking move, his Down Special, if both hits connect without being punished by perfect shielding. Ganondorf on the other hand...

Fully Charged F-Smash, Aerial Reverse Warlock Punch, Up Tilt and Warlock Blade's Tip will shatter shields instantly. If not that, he has crazy shield pressure against opponents, with most of his attacks, save for his jab, dealing massive shield damage.

In short:

Combo Ability:
Range:
Speed:
Air Game:
Ground Game:
Shield Pressure:
Read Game:
Attack Power:
Ground Attack Speed:
Air Attack Speed:
Durability: (Tie)
Edge-Guarding:
KO Ability:
Benefit from Rage:
Mind Games:

You just cannot get too close to Ganondorf as Bowser, or else you will indeed get punished heavily. But this is from my experience playing Ganondorf against Bowser, and Ganondorf is the superior one in my opinion.

 

[Saturn_]

Ganondorf wins, 8:2.....

Ground Attack Speed:
Durability: (Tie)

Gotta say I don't agree with these two at all. Bowser is surprisingly fast and has a great dash attack and probably a better jab, while Ganondorf is one of the slowest characters in the game. Bowser is also the heaviest character in the game, doesn't flinch from small damage when at low %, and has a better recovery than Ganondorf.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rwtQywtDn0

 

[Smooth Criminal]

...Larry, dude, I gotta wonder sometimes. Do you play as or even play against some of these characters?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Saturn_]

...Larry, dude, I gotta wonder sometimes. Do you play as or even play against some of these characters?

Smooth Criminal

Just look at his avatar, he's a Ganondorf main, what a surprise he finds a way to call Gdorf the best.

 

[Ffamran]

Just look at his avatar, he's a Ganondorf main, what a surprise he finds a way to call Gdorf the best.

You don't see me claiming Falco 70:30's everyone. Let's NOT insult, mock, flame, or troll others.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

You don't see me claiming Falco 70:30's everyone. Let's NOT insult, mock, flame, or troll others.

I apologize if it seems like I was putting him on blast with my statement, but...

I dunno, people do disagree with him more often than not when he pops in and starts talking about the likes of Link (and Ganon now, it looks like) having advantageous MUs on damn near everyone when it comes up. He also has admitted to it being based on his very limited experience playing For Glory.

So, uh, you're right about that. I guess.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Locke 06]

Bowser is also the heaviest character in the game, doesn't flinch from small damage when at low %, and has a better recovery than Ganondorf.

With regards to durability, I have a hard time thinking Bowser is going to tough guy anything Ganondorf puts out.

 

[Ffamran]

I apologize if it seems like I was putting him on blast with my statement, but...

I dunno, people do disagree with him more often than not when he pops in and starts talking about the likes of Link (and Ganon now, it looks like) having advantageous MUs on damn near everyone when it comes up. He also has admitted to it being based on his very limited experience playing For Glory.

Smooth Criminal

Not you specifically, but to anyone. It's better to try and explain how something is not right with their analysis rather than brushing it off negatively. Even if their opinion doesn't change, at least you weren't involved with a senseless conflict.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

With regards to durability, I have a hard time thinking Bowser is going to tough guy anything Ganondorf puts out.

You saved me an edit.

I actually agree with A2ZOMG on his assessment of the MU. It's about even-ish, simply because both characters can beat the tar out of each other in neutral with about equal impunity if one screws up against the other. I personally would give the (slight) nod to Bowser simply because of his mobility and his better recovery (which, btw, can lend itself to some surprisingly deep edgeguards).

Not you specifically, but to anyone. It's better to try and explain how something is not right with their analysis rather than brushing it off negatively. Even if their opinion doesn't change, at least you weren't involved with a senseless conflict.

See, I could argue that's what reading the thread is for, but I guess not everybody keeps up with a circular topic like this very well. It's kinda like one of those Looney Tunes-esque revolving doors---they spin really, really fast, and discharge stuff (this case, information) very rapidly.

tl;dr the fowl's right

Smooth Criminal

 

[Road Death Wheel]

vs
Ganondorf wins, 8:2.

8:2...... that crap is rare even in brawl/melee bruh.

Props to the 3 frame reaction time.

Also but seriously we fought with this specific match up man. It's definitly not this skewed.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

vs
Ganondorf wins, 8:2.
While Bowser has the ranged attacks, yes, Ganondorf makes up for very quick and relentless punishes, and a faster air game than that of Bowser; when comparing attack speed, Ganondorf has a faster air game thanks to his U-Air and B-Air having faster start up, end and landing lag, as well as N-Air being a more efficient attack with Dorf than Bowser.

Ganondorf's ability to jump lower than Bowser offers him more assistance to attack him, since Ganondorf has more options than Bowser in mid-air, thus a more reliable air game. As well, if Ganondorf is launched upward by Bowser, Bowser doesn't have many options aside from U-Air, while Ganondorf has his Down Special, which, if hit well, will KO Bowser off the top of the stage.

Ganondorf also has a far better combo and grab game than Bowser; Ganondorf can at least combo with his throws, and has the most powerful throws in the game, allowing him to get in on his opponents. While some may argue Ganondorf has a worse grab game, remember, only Ganondorf's grabbing is bad due to his slow speed.

Bowser does have advantages, such as his faster ground and air speed, as well as his weight and size and even recovery. However, Ganondorf will defeat him in major categories, such as edge-guarding, due to Bowser having less edge-guarding capability than Ganondorf, as well as Ganondorf beating out Bowser due to the outrageous size of the latter.

In fact, it's Bowser's outrageous size that allows Ganondorf to wail on him, since Bowser has a terrible time against Ganondorf if the latter uses Flame Choke. Bowser is easily a heavy target against Ganondorf, obviously.

In terms of damage and knockback, the clear winner is Ganondorf, with the astonishing fact that he can hit Bowser with two hits of the U-Smash in succession and still wail on him with a combo for ludicrous damage. Ganondorf also has the immense knockback and capabilities of KO'ing Bowser earlier than vice versa.

In terms of reads, Bowser is easier to read and punish than Ganondorf. Ganondorf has that unexpected nature that Bowser doesn't, and thanks to the IASA frames and automatic transcending priority provided with Ganon's U-Smash, he could use that, use another U-Smash or play mind games with characters all day long.

Lastly, Bowser only has one shield breaking move, his Down Special, if both hits connect without being punished by perfect shielding. Ganondorf on the other hand...

Fully Charged F-Smash, Aerial Reverse Warlock Punch, Up Tilt and Warlock Blade's Tip will shatter shields instantly. If not that, he has crazy shield pressure against opponents, with most of his attacks, save for his jab, dealing massive shield damage.

In short:

Combo Ability:
Range:
Speed:
Air Game:
Ground Game:
Shield Pressure:
Read Game:
Attack Power:
Ground Attack Speed:
Air Attack Speed:
Durability: (Tie)
Edge-Guarding:
KO Ability:
Benefit from Rage:
Mind Games:

You just cannot get too close to Ganondorf as Bowser, or else you will indeed get punished heavily. But this is from my experience playing Ganondorf against Bowser, and Ganondorf is the superior one in my opinion.

As a Ganondorf main all I have to say is....

This is Bull**** LOL XD

 

[Ffamran]

8:2...... that crap is rare even in brawl/melee bruh.

Props to the 3 frame reaction time.

Also but seriously we fought with this specific match up man. It's definitly not this skewed.

Did you not read what I said?! Explain why it's not that skewed...

You don't see me claiming Falco 70:30's everyone. Let's NOT insult, mock, flame, or troll others.

 

[BlackNitrous1]

May be a dumb question but I'm new, why are tier list discussions banned from smash boards?

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

May be a dumb question but I'm new, why are tier list discussions banned from smash boards?

...Because the game is only over like... 4 months old lel

Give it a few more months.

 

[Ffamran]

That and it's mostly wild mass guessing. There were things like Sheik, Rosalina, ZSS, and Diddy being called OP and in need of bans or severe needs or how Falco, Marth, and Meta Knight received a ton of needs when it was just changes in numbers and actually requested, especially in Meta Knight's case. Also, read the first post:

Any early tier list discussion is BANNED

But, it's going to happen in some form or another. So here it is, please be careful and respectful.

Keep relative discussions on character strengths, weaknesses, abilities and viability to here.
You should avoid "definitely top tier" or "definitely low tier", or "second best character in the game" etc etc.
However, I'm sure anyone who has sat down to play the game or is now watching latest footage while also having a Melee or Brawl background will have an inkling or impression about differences. People know how match ups go for many characters in previous games, and considering the new tools or other changes that have occurred one could have an idea on how things will be different.

Furthermore discoveries that have heavily affected the viability of characters in the past, such as having a chain grab (Falco, Dedede) or being chain grabbed (Ness, Fox, Wario) may be brought up and discerned ("Snake may have many issues because if you grab his cypher while he recovers he doesn't get it back", "Dedede seems to be able to down throw chain grab a large portion of the cast at any percent").

For those who are interested in previous game tier lists or match up information to bolster their knowledge, please refer to here:
Latest Brawl Tier List: http://smashboards.com/threads/official-swf-tier-list-v8.335959/
Latest Brawl Match Up Chart: http://smashboards.com/threads/official-swf-matchup-chart-v3-0.338390/
Latest Melee Tier List: http://smashboards.com/threads/2013-community-tier-list.336113

 

[BlackNitrous1]

...Because the game is only over like... 4 months old lel

Give it a few more months.

Haha makes sense

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Did you not read what I said?! Explain why it's not that skewed...

hmm? why? im quite sure my original statement was that 8:2 is rare. now i could go in depth as to why that is basically not even a thing in this game if you would like. But im more than sure that we all know the answer to that. There is simply no proof as of yet for any match to be that polarizing. Why its not that skewed? That directly corrolates to my first statment. There is simply not enough data for that thesis to hold any ground expecialy considering the mu was not even that bad in brawl in ganon's case at least. And overall looking at that data and adding in the new information from this game where they share many of the same engine benefits, i dont see the mu being so different. if anything its closer to even now.

Also the whole "Also but seriously we fought with this specific match up man. It's definitly not this skewed"
I was just reminding him of a fight we did. And for him to think back on it. He has a brain I dont think im flaming, trolling, or pinning him down by simply tempting him to reflect.


.....sorry if i came off grumpy i sprained my drawing hand.

 

[Vincent21]

@ Road Death Wheel

I think he legit quoted the wrong person and mean to quote:

As a Ganondorf main all I have to say is....

This is Bull**** LOL XD

HOWEVER I can't claim to literally SPEAK for anyone. But it seems that would've been a way more fitting account of what happened :v

Also can we talk about ?

^Legitimate question: I have no idea how to feel about this character's place in the roster and it's competitive hierarchy. Messing around with them myself I actually feel like their approach game is insane and they're one of the few characters who can legitimately ENGAGE because they don't wait to punish things - they approach with mix-ups UNTIL those cause you to do something punishable. However I feel like their disadvantage state is so atrocious that it kills them as a character. Despite that UpB it's just bad. dair isn't disjointed enough to stuff things. UpB can be stuffed before it reaches actual frame of detach. Even if you get it off, so long as they avoid eating the actual shell explosion you're EASILY punished and have one baitable hammer swing between you and death. It feels absolutely miserable to be disadvantaged as these little tykes, with like the only consolation being fair is a pretty decent way to return horizontally because it's a nice hitbox with staying time.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

@ Road Death Wheel

I think he legit quoted the wrong person and mean to quote:


HOWEVER I can't claim to literally SPEAK for anyone. But it seems that would've been a way more fitting account of what happened :v

Also can we talk about ?

^Legitimate question: I have no idea how to feel about this character's place in the roster and it's competitive hierarchy. Messing around with them myself I actually feel like their approach game is insane and their one of the few characters who can legitimately ENGAGE because they don't wait to punish things they approach with mix-ups UNTIL those cause you to do something punishable. However I feel like their disadvantage state is so atrocious that it kills them as a character. Despite that UpB it's just bad. dair isn't disjointed enough to stuff things. UpB can be stuffed before it reaches actual frame of detach. Even if you get it off, so long as they avoid eating the actual shell explosion you're EASILY punished and have one baitable hammer swing between you and death. It feels absolutely miserable to be disadvantaged as these little tykes, with like the only consolation being fair is a pretty decent way to return horizontally because it's a nice hitbox with staying time.

get the ball rolling with this character and watch them shine. manage to knoch that ball away and watch them fumble.

also the up bisone of there strongest frame trap/killmoves. not persay the explosion part (even though its usefull and is a decent edge guard.) its really the hammer hitting where its usefullness shines.

 

[Radical Larry]

I'm not saying Ganondorf (nor Link for that matter) is an overbearing character to most of the cast; it's just that I'm saying he has some aspects that can at least HELP him go against others; maybe not particularly win some match ups, hell, I say that him against Sheik is well in Sheik's favor. But he has aspects that make it easier for him to have a chance.

I am not here to say that Link nor Ganondorf are particularly top tier, but I am wanting to state that they are really good, solid characters. I try finding the aspects that will help them in match-ups, to be fair.

I'm not saying they're in the best of tiers, I just try finding things good about them.

Ganondorf's power and attack speed, as well as Bowser's size, are reasons why Bowser could struggle with Ganondorf; while on the other hand, Bowser's speed and ranged attacks are reasons Ganondorf could struggle with Bowser. Yet Ganondorf has the better combo ability and punish ability than Bowser can have. But Bowser has raw weight and durability with him.