Character Competitive Impressions

[David Viran]

You can n-air the tether, and b-air otherwise. If you get used to the down-b animation you can Thunder her out of it pretty consistently, unlike Sheik's Bouncing Fish. There's nothing really special about what you have to do vs. ZSS; she's just pretty mobile so it's hard to trap her in a given situation. She's not really scary offstage though, as long you don't get hit by up-b (which shouldn't ever happen), so Pikachu can go off the stage every time to try to catch her.

I find tether cancels to be very good mix ups off stage especially the fact on how fast you can reel in with the tether. ZSS either down bs to kill momentum or go straight through opponents who get to close to hit her with a move. It's hard to learn the pattern of down b, especially since they don't like to waste the invincibility frames, when the zss can almost instantly halt her momentum during down b.

 

[Blue Banana]

It does seem like Sticky Pikmin Throw naturally keeps Pikmin on you longer overall if you don't do anything else. Initial testing showed me that Pikmin thrown with Sticky Pikmin Throw do attack something like 30-40% faster than normal (haven't gone too in-depth with this yet), and they deal around twice as many hits, more than off-setting the smaller amount of time between the hits.

And yeah, Hardy Pikmin Pluck seems to give them a lot more health than I would've expected (considering they have single- to low-double-digit HP normally). Reds and Yellows took like 5 Ness F-smashes (~20% each) before dying, matching your 9 Mario D-smashes. Testing this out with Jab 1s instead ended up "timing out" the Pikmin that were separated from Olimar; that's how much more health they have. I'm curious now to see how good of a combination Hardy plus Sticky might be. Didn't @Denti say after Tourney Locator's first customs tournament that he didn't feel Olimar's customs were that useful? Maybe he can shed some more light on how they work.

At 0% on a CPU set to "Stop" in Training, Sticky Pikmin Throw does 19 hits, compared to the default's 11.

I can see 221X being a viable set against opposing zoners and campers, as the nature of the matchups and the Pikmin's survivability can help rack damage up easier in neutral. The reason I'm personally not into this set is because SPT reduces the range of all colors except whites. This means that Olimar would have to move closer to the opponent and potentially into his/her camping range. HPP's increased lag means that Olimar must not accidentally throw Pikmin into the abyss, and throwing away Pikmin to cycle to a certain color would leave him very vulnerable.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

honestly the only character thats a worse version of another is marth>lucina.

Ganon's a pretty crappy Captain Falcon.

 

[Quickhero]

Ganon's a pretty crappy Captain Falcon.

Please tell me how Ganondorf and Captain Falcon are exactly the same....Ganondorf and Captain Falcon might have similar kits but the stats are distributed so that Ganondorf is an insanely strong punisher and has mediocre combos and mobility, while Captain Falcon has a lot of mobility and grab combos for days and while yes Falcon can punish well Ganondorf is MUCH MORE PUNISHING than Captain Falcon can ever dream about.

 

[Ffamran]

Ganon's a pretty crappy Captain Falcon.

That's if you're playing Ganondorf like Captain Falcon which you're not supposed to. It's like if I tried being speedster, Flash-like with Falco. That ain't Falco and that sure as hell ain't Fox.

Ganondorf's more or less a punisher and a one-hit-killer. The only issue with that is he's pretty much a defensive character with not a lot of offensive options. Can he run after you? Yes, but not as well as Captain Falcon, Fox, or Sonic. Can he play an air game? Sort of, but not as well as Jigglypuff, Meta Knight?, and Kirby? Can he do off-stage well? Unless off stage meant being near the ledge and doing an attack when someone gets near, then no. He can't do what Falco, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Meta Knight, Rosalina?, and the Villager can. Don't even think about zoning with Ganondorf. The thing Ganondorf does better than anyone else, well, as of now since who knows, Mewtwo could come back packing 300lbs of muscles and attacks that rip through the air, is punish. One hit from him is much worse than one hit from Ike, Triple D, Bowser, and DK.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Ganon's a pretty crappy Captain Falcon.

No wonder you stopped playing SF.

You probably thought all the shotos played the same.

Smooth Criminal

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon's a pretty crappy Captain Falcon.

Ganondorf tbh really plays almost nothing like Falcon. He plays way more like Marth, in that his game revolves around midrange spacing and basic capitalization.

 

[Nabbitnator]

No wonder you stopped playing SF.

You probably thought all the shotos played the same.

Smooth Criminal

You made me go back to when nearly everyone tried to play evil ryu just like ryu.

Now I have a question about sonic. Is it possible that in the future he won't be top 10 anymore?

 

[popsofctown]

Whether a character appeals to you stylistically in a way that's similar to another character is subjective and doesn't need to be objectified.

Ganon is a worse Peach in Brawl, in that there is no matchup ratio where Ganon performs better than Peach. For the vast majority of players, the fun factor and appeal of those two characters is so vastly different that that comparison doesn't matter. But if for some particular person playing Ganon and Peach feels similar to them and similar in appeal, then nothing you say is going to change that. Informing them that Ganon doesn't have the matchup ratios Peach has -is- objectifiable though and useful to the guy who is in love with both characters.

It's not really useful to me whether Doc is -supposed- to feel like Luigi to me or whether Doc is supposed to feel like Mario to me: he feels like Mario to me, and the characters have similar appeal to me.
It is useful to me if Doc beats Ness better than Mario beats Ness.

There might be someone out there who doesn't think Lucina feels like Marth at all, and really enjoys Lucina and doesn't enjoy Marth, and enjoyment/playstyle matching can override tier power. So Lucina can be a relevant character, even though there's little doubt every single one of her matchup ratios is worse. Telling someone who likes both characters similarly that Marth is better is useful, telling someone who only has a desire to play Lucina that Marth is better will seem pointless to them.


So, anyway, when I asked about Doc, I wanted to hear stuff like Doc edgeguarding Falcon better than Mario, not that my emotional attachment to both characters was less valid than someone else's. That's not helpful. And I don't think pretending there isn't at least a significant minority of players that enjoy both characters similarly is realistic, nor is it for Ganon and Falcon (it's more likely to be a minority there, but still significant enough to be worth talking about their matchup juxtapostion).

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

No wonder you stopped playing SF.

You probably thought all the shotos played the same.

Na but I do thunk sagat is a shoto.

Smooth Criminal

Ganondorf tbh really plays almost nothing like Falcon. He plays way more like Marth, in that his game revolves around midrange spacing and basic capitalization.

Does doc and mario and lugi play exactly a like? No but they're extremely similar. Uair Bair dair nair down smash forawrd smash up B dash attack neutral B down B side are virtually identical. Hell ganon is a slower heavier captain falcon with a bad jab. You guys are really splitting hairs here. If ganon was as fast as falcon they'd practically be clowns. I think pitt and dark pitt has less in common than ganon and falcon (this is a joke laugh please ).

 

[incrediblej]

On olis customs neutral and side seem match up dependent like against rosa it wouldn't matter seeing how she has trouble with removing the, his whistle I say order tackle over the other downs it doesn't seem to have significant difference in its lag compared to default if someone can get me the data on those moves thawould be very helpful, and I say the up is preference except for the winged pikmin jump which seems just terrible I was testing might winged pikmin on final destination and I jumped straight down from the ledge and used it close to the edge of the screen and I could still recover which seems viable for recovery with out sacrificing pikmin which would go good with HPP

 

[Anomilus]

Does doc and mario and lugi play exactly a like? No but they're extremely similar. Uair Bair dair nair down smash forawrd smash up B dash attack neutral B down B side are virtually identical. Hell ganon is a slower heavier captain falcon with a bad jab. You guys are really splitting hairs here. If ganon was as fast as falcon they'd practically be clowns. I think pitt and dark pitt has less in common than ganon and falcon (this is a joke laugh please ).

Similar animations play no part in play comparisons. We look at the stats of the character and their attacks and ultimately how they play.

The Bros. can be compared somewhat because it's possible to adapt certain tactics here and there to each character. All three use Down Throw follow-up combos and strings. All three utilize some sort of Super Jump Punch into their strategy. All three space with projectiles. Doc and Luigi have tornado attacks with similar application. Mario and Doc have reflective cloth moves. They do have some moves that are completely different, but for the most part the similarities are enough that people can say "Doc is a worse Mario/Luigi" or something to that degree.

You said "Ganon's a crappier Falcon". Your fault is assuming they could be compared because they have similar animations and similar attack angles here and there. But statistically they are too vastly different to be any sort of interchangeable. Captain Falcon's about overwhelming the opponent with bursts of speed and combos. Ganon's about playing a deadly waiting game and unleashing unrivaled punishes. Either character can't even come close to replicating the other's style. You mind as well say "Marth is a faster, weaker Ike".

 

[Superbat]

Metaknight main katakiri made a post and YouTube video about how metaknight's up throw invalidates olimar's pikmin because metaknight becomes a hitbox and hits pikmin. Credit to katakiri. First smasboard post. My days of lurking are over. http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knights-up-throw-kills-all-pikmin.382929/

 

[Deleted member]

If ganon was as fast as falcon they'd practically be clowns.

I need to see Ganondorf in clown makeup right now.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Meta Knight's Uthrow is indeed ungodly strong on those that are not being thrown. It kills everyone roughly around 60%, I think?

Makes you wonder why Kirby and Charizard didn't receive the same treatment. They, Zard especially, would enjoy having a Pikmin/Luma nuke just for getting that grab.

 

[Kofu]

I found this out the hard way today when trying to beat an event match today. I was like "okay, UThrow on Marth, now- wait, why did Peach just die?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I found this out the hard way today when trying to beat an event match today. I was like "okay, UThrow on Marth, now- wait, why did Peach just die?

lol i guess even if its old news its just so strange that it still catches people off guard.

 

[Blobface]

So since a few people were talking about Ganon anyway, I figured I'd mention something odd about Warlock Punch. If Ganon starts a Warlock Punch on the ground and is put into the air (usually by a windbox pushing or pulling him off of a platform), he retains his super armor and gains the power boost that comes from a Warlock Punch.

It's quite obviously not a Meta-Changing Tech, but with customs taken into account, it could basically invalidate Kong Cyclone against Ganon. If DK Pulls Ganon in during a Warlock Punch, he's got a slight chance of instantly losing a stock to an Aerial Warlock Punch. It won't work often, but it's basically a Ganoncide that doesn't kill Ganon if it hits.

 

[Nobie]

Metaknight main katakiri made a post and YouTube video about how metaknight's up throw invalidates olimar's pikmin because metaknight becomes a hitbox and hits pikmin. Credit to katakiri. First smasboard post. My days of lurking are over. http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knights-up-throw-kills-all-pikmin.382929/

Speaking of Olimar-specific Meta Knight tech, I noticed that, at least on 3DS, if you do an up throw against Olimar during the slide after a dash grab, you can trigger the impact to happen a little bit in the air, which makes the move kill about 16% earlier than it normally should.

 

[HeavyLobster]

That's if you're playing Ganondorf like Captain Falcon which you're not supposed to. It's like if I tried being speedster, Flash-like with Falco. That ain't Falco and that sure as hell ain't Fox.

Ganondorf's more or less a punisher and a one-hit-killer. The only issue with that is he's pretty much a defensive character with not a lot of offensive options. Can he run after you? Yes, but not as well as Captain Falcon, Fox, or Sonic. Can he play an air game? Sort of, but not as well as Jigglypuff, Meta Knight?, and Kirby? Can he do off-stage well? Unless off stage meant being near the ledge and doing an attack when someone gets near, then no. He can't do what Falco, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Meta Knight, Rosalina?, and the Villager can. Don't even think about zoning with Ganondorf. The thing Ganondorf does better than anyone else, well, as of now since who knows, Mewtwo could come back packing 300lbs of muscles and attacks that rip through the air, is punish. One hit from him is much worse than one hit from Ike, Triple D, Bowser, and DK.

Technically Bowser can hit about as hard as Ganon in terms of single hits, but Ganon is unique in his ability to string ludicrously powerful moves together and rack up damage/get the kill much faster, while Bowser is forced to reset more often after landing a hit in return for better footsies and a much better CQC game.

 

[|RK|]

Out of curiosity - what is the Ganon/Bowser matchup like?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Out of curiosity - what is the Ganon/Bowser matchup like?

Pretty even. Both sides hit really hard. Bowser has the better neutral, Ganon has the better punishes, and both are pretty decent at edgeguarding the other.

 

[Smog Frog]

also bowser is more pressured/stressed out than others when hit by a flame choke because his tech options are pretty bad

 

[HeavyLobster]

also bowser is more pressured/stressed out than others when hit by a flame choke because his tech options are pretty bad

Yup. Bowser's options out of Choke are almost Mac tier.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Every possible MU Doc does better than Mario has been discussed. Ness and Luigi are the most notable ones, Falcon he handles about the same maybe better, but those are all that come to mind.

Pills radically change a lot of the MUs because the projectile trajectory is different and it's relevant for stuff like Ness since he can't absorb them as they are not energy based. This lets Doc handle heavies/chars that have problems approaching Mario to begin with fairly decently as well thanks to the trajectory of the pill being really annoying for tall characters.

Dr. Mario has better OoS options than both too which helps when you're cornered in basically every MU so this applies universally as one form of technical advantage.

As for using Doc OVER Mario or Luigi I guess, it's very MU specific. If we're speaking without customs Doc is a very decent counterpick for a few characters if you want to carry over some moderate amounts of familiarity. With customs on Doc is a much more solid character that really isn't a CP only char. You should've asked about that in particular and I could've given way more clarity on it!

Hope this helps @ popsofctown sorry if I wasn't incredibly clear before, you didn't really ask for MU specific stuff like this but this is the biggest info dump I can drop on Doc. I guess the question really boils down less to why use him over Mario and Luigi (without customs) and more "When should I CP Doc" if we're speaking strictly non-customs. He's a CP character IMO.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Out of curiosity - what is the Ganon/Bowser matchup like?

It's super random and drastic momentum swings are common. Everyone's best punishes are very applicable in this matchup and people get blasted to bits by F-smash reads and F-air edgeguards. Ganon edges out slightly on juggles, edgeguards, and having his techchase game for KO confirms, but Bowser does control neutral slightly better with his run speed, Firebreath, and Jab, though his size makes him a lot easier for Ganon to space aerials against.

Either way both of them basically get bodied to hell and back by each other in the negative state.

 

[Djent]

Hmm, sounds exactly how a battle between two evil kings should go.

Metaknight main katakiri made a post and YouTube video about how metaknight's up throw invalidates olimar's pikmin because metaknight becomes a hitbox and hits pikmin. Credit to katakiri. First smasboard post. My days of lurking are over. http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knights-up-throw-kills-all-pikmin.382929/

So MK might have a better Olimar MU than he did in Brawl? Heh...

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Similar animations play no part in play comparisons. We look at the stats of the character and their attacks and ultimately how they play.

The Bros. can be compared somewhat because it's possible to adapt certain tactics here and there to each character. All three use Down Throw follow-up combos and strings. All three utilize some sort of Super Jump Punch into their strategy. All three space with projectiles. Doc and Luigi have tornado attacks with similar application. Mario and Doc have reflective cloth moves. They do have some moves that are completely different, but for the most part the similarities are enough that people can say "Doc is a worse Mario/Luigi" or something to that degree.

You said "Ganon's a crappier Falcon". Your fault is assuming they could be compared because they have similar animations and similar attack angles here and there. But statistically they are too vastly different to be any sort of interchangeable. Captain Falcon's about overwhelming the opponent with bursts of speed and combos. Ganon's about playing a deadly waiting game and unleashing unrivaled punishes. Either character can't even come close to replicating the other's style. You mind as well say "Marth is a faster, weaker Ike".

Nair 7 frames fair 14 frames uair 6 frames bair 9 frames dair 16 frames up b 14 frames. With the exception of fair these moves are exactly tge same. Their maybe different damage values but they're basically the same moves.

Down throw follow ups has little to nothing to do with the mario bros clone stuff. That's like saying ZSS and Falcon are clones because of dthrow uair strings.

Honestly, I think people are disagreeing with me because they play Ganon and they don't want to accept the fact that falcon is a faster better gannon.

 

[NairWizard]

Nair 7 frames fair 14 frames uair 6 frames bair 9 frames dair 16 frames up b 14 frames. With the exception of fair these moves are exactly tge same. Their maybe different damage values but they're basically the same moves.

Adjustments in damage change almost everything about a move, including its shield safety/stun and knockback. Frame data is important, but is only part of the picture.

 

[Nabbitnator]

To me ganon plays vastly differently then falcon. They share parts of a moveset but that's about it.

 

[Smog Frog]

ignore pls

 

[Hippieslayer]

Guys, is there any character that's worse than Palutena without customs? I struggle to think of one. She really can't do **** against mobile characters since she relies on being able to jab and fair poke to have any kind of game going at all. And it's not like she's particularly good against slower characters either. What she has going for her is all gimmicky stuff.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I think people are disagreeing with me because they play Ganon and they don't want to accept the fact that falcon is a faster better gannon.

Is Fox a faster, better Falco?

Explain to me how Ganon and Falcon play anything alike.

 

[meleebrawler]

Guys, is there any character that's worse than Palutena without customs? I struggle to think of one. She really can't do **** against mobile characters since she relies on being able to jab and fair poke to have any kind of game going at all. And it's not like she's particularly good against slower characters either. What she has going for her is all gimmicky stuff.

The Zelda players only wish they could poke with Fair in the air like Palutena does, or poke with anything in the air
really.

Palutena is fairly mobile herself with good walking and dashing speeds, and Warp helps mitigate air speed issues.
(Zelda is blatantly inferior in both aspects.) She won't be left in the dust easily, even without Super Speed or Lightweight. She also has a strong grab game, always a desirable attribute.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Nair 7 frames fair 14 frames uair 6 frames bair 9 frames dair 16 frames up b 14 frames. With the exception of fair these moves are exactly tge same. Their maybe different damage values but they're basically the same moves.

Down throw follow ups has little to nothing to do with the mario bros clone stuff. That's like saying ZSS and Falcon are clones because of dthrow uair strings.

Honestly, I think people are disagreeing with me because they play Ganon and they don't want to accept the fact that falcon is a faster better gannon.

Ganon's hitboxes are nothing like Falcon's. Falcon's pokes are average at best and outside of his strong DA being a great midrange option, his optimal ranges are either close or long range where he's either abusing his amazing jab or his run speed + dashgrab. Ganondorf in contrast functions best almost entirely in midrange when you look at how his tilts, DA, and Flame Choke work.

And honestly, Falcon actually is way more similar to ZSS than he is to Ganondorf. Their optimal ranges, setups, and overall gameplan have a LOT of overlap.

People are disagreeing with you because you actually just didn't even make good comparisons of the movesets...Ganon's tilts, SideB, grab game, and aerials control completely different options than Falcon's, and his good/bad matchups are different from Falcon's furthermore.

For instance, Falcon imo actually has a lot of trouble against Link, a character whose optimal ranges also happen to be long and close range, which makes Falcon's overall gameplan a lot riskier. Falcon doesn't get to abuse his mobility quite as much as he'd like against Link's projectiles, and then factoring Link gets great combos and edgeguards on him this makes the matchup probably Link's favor, especially since Falcon's aerials are not very strong against Link's Up-B for edgeguarding. Ganon in contrast is hurt a lot less by Link's strengths at long range and close range given his gameplan hinges less on the threat of mobility but is very midrange spacing based, which is where Link happens to be weakest, and Ganon has several aerials which can hit lower than Falcon's and gimp Link very easily, which puts Ganon's matchup against Link in his favor.

 

[Hippieslayer]

The Zelda players only wish they could poke with Fair in the air like Palutena does, or poke with anything in the air
really.

Palutena is fairly mobile herself with good walking and dashing speeds, and Warp helps mitigate air speed issues.
(Zelda is blatantly inferior in both aspects.) She won't be left in the dust easily, even without Super Speed or Lightweight. She also has a strong grab game, always a desirable attribute.

Her grab game is highly overrated, d-throw to fair is the only thing that's guaranteed and it doesn't do that much, great for positioning but the damage isn't that much. When you factor in that she's got pretty awful ending lag on her grab the risk reward ratio of her grab game adds up to meh.

Zelda has other tools. I'm not saying Palutena fair or jab is bad, they are both awesome. But they are just about the only awesome things she has. U-smash is a neat gimmick but the only reason people keep getting hit by it is because of matchup inexperience.
She can hardly even punish good dash attacks on her shield either because of her lackluster OOS shield options. Her damage output overall is highly mediocre, she relies on incremental damage, as she lacks viable comboes outside of d-throw>fair, but those increments are tiny and wont cut it since her neutral is by no means good, this combination of relying on staying in the neutral and winning by increments in combination with her having a blergh neutral is why she's such a bad character. She also can't kill unless she gets a hard read, hits with bair by the ledge, or gets her opponent to a percentage where dash attack kills (gl on that with her damage output). She also struggles heavily with landing against decently fast characters. She can save herself with teleport a few times, but that's gets predictable quickly, her counter also sucks because it doesn't stall her in the air and has a lot of ending lag, and besides using counter to land is going to get you killed quickly.

 

[Antonykun]

Guys, is there any character that's worse than Palutena without customs? I struggle to think of one. She really can't do **** against mobile characters since she relies on being able to jab and fair poke to have any kind of game going at all. And it's not like she's particularly good against slower characters either. What she has going for her is all gimmicky stuff.

Btw b-airs are surprisingly not bad.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Clearly characters like Ganondorf are disadvantaged against Megaman because they are too slow to get in vs. pellets, and clearly having good ground speed is better than not having good ground speed. This is just trivially true.

Pellets aren't too hard to get around considering the amazing properties of defensive options this game.

Also, Megaman's tools are projectiles, he's built around them. Any opposing character playing against a Megaman needs to base their playstyles with the overly powerful defensive mechanics. This can hurt Megaman pretty hard.

As for Ganon's pairing against Megaman in particular, it's about even.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Is Fox a faster, better Falco?

Explain to me how Ganon and Falcon play anything alike.

They don't play alike because ganon is too slow. If ganon had the same dash speed and walk speed ad falcon they'd be the same character. A lot of their moves are extremely similar. Someone brought up shotos earlier they don't play anything a like but they're still grouped together.

 

[Antonykun]

They don't play alike because ganon is too slow. If ganon had the same dash speed and walk speed ad falcon they'd be the same character. A lot of their moves are extremely similar. Someone brought up shotos earlier they don't play anything a like but they're still grouped together.

Then how is ganon a worse falcon?
If they don't play alike how can one be better than the other?
Also If Falcon had Ganon's moves...dear lord