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Character Competitive Impressions

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HeroMystic

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Mobility is a huge part of Control, if not the largest. Sonic is the character who is best at controlling the pace of the match because it's nearly impossible to track him down. Even if he has to approach in the end ultimately you have to play his game. Diddy is of course very good at controlling the pace of a match but not as good as Sheik, who is much harder to outcamp because of needles and mobility. Control is honestly less important in this game than in previous ones because of rage and larger discrepancies in reward between characters. Diddy is ahead of Sheik not because he's better in terms of control but because he's almost as good while being well ahead in terms of reward.
I mean, it's pretty obvious mobility has a pretty big factor. I'm not kidding myself when it comes to that. Just, I feel every character has some factor of control even when mobility is not on their side. Luigi for example is held back by his below average mobility, but he has huge burst damage from grabs that makes mobility characters fear him. When he gets control he can really dictate how a match can go. Similarly, I feel Ike has good amount of control due to his absurd range and attack speed.
 

CaveLemon

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almost all of d3's specials are poop expecially gordo's
Eh, each has it's moment.

His recovery is decent, and has pretty good vertical distance.
Gordos are acceptable if the opponent is off stage.
Jet hammer is for styling.

Inhale...is a desperate mixup i guess? I dunno.

Just because his specials are lackluster doesn't mean he's useless if he has other utility to make up for it.
 

Road Death Wheel

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I mean, it's pretty obvious mobility has a pretty big factor. I'm not kidding myself when it comes to that. Just, I feel every character has some factor of control even when mobility is not on their side. Luigi for example is held back by his below average mobility, but he has huge burst damage from grabs that makes mobility characters fear him. When he gets control he can really dictate how a match can go. Similarly, I feel Ike has good amount of control due to his absurd range and attack speed.
i feel like your confusing control with respect.
while they are similar, respecting an option is very different from forcing options. One has to respect ikes options but he very well does not make you have to do anything. witch i feel is more acurate to control. Ganon is a character that probably demands the most respect in the game. but since does not have any options to control hes still forced to play to the oppositions games

@ CaveLemon CaveLemon but he does not have anything to make up for it. he gets camped. "Hard" falco's lazer reflects gordo's for christ sake. de3 is slow and bad at approaching. like really bad. but de3 has alot of mu's he just domintates. he a very polarizing character who saddly does not have any of those domintaing mu's against top tiers.
 
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warionumbah2

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Not enough D3 talk.

I really think he's a ton more viable than he's made out to be in most tier lists.
Super solid kill potential, can last at high percents, strong aerial game, and he doesn't have any downright terrible moves.

I guess he's easy to combo, but besides that, am I missing the reason he's places so low on most tier lists?

His recovery can easily be punished and intercepted, problem with DDD is that his MU is booty but then again he slaughters a few characters like Little Mac.
 

HeroMystic

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i feel like your confusing control with respect.
while they are similar respecting an option is very different from forcing options. One has to respect ikes options but he very well does not make you have to do anything. witich i feel is more acurate to control. Ganon is a character that probably demands the most respect in the game. but since does not have any options to control hes still forced to play to the oppositions games
Hm, you're right. I suppose I just look at Rosalina and see her as a character who doesn't have blistering mobility but has so much stage control with Luma that you have to play her game (until her defense is broken, and even then Dabuz proved Rosalina can hold herself until Luma returns), but Rosalina is anti-meta in that her design allows for such. Characters like Doc, DK, and Bowser doesn't really have much say in that.
 

Road Death Wheel

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His recovery can easily be punished and intercepted, problem with DDD is that his MU is booty but then again he slaughters a few characters like Little Mac.
once again this confuses me. i get punishing it thats easy. but how in the world are people intercepting this moves it has super armor no?
 

CaveLemon

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Guess you're right about his approach, although shorthop nair is pretty decent if you practice it, but having one somewhat okay approach is a big downside.

I just think his combo game and good range for a melee character is downplayed a bit. As with any character, enough lab time can do wonders.

Don't recall up special being intercepted too often, super armor is pretty strong there.
 
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Road Death Wheel

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Guess you're right about his approach, although shorthop nair is pretty decent if you practice it, but having one somewhat okay approach is a big downside.

I just think his combo game and good range for a melee character is downplayed a bit. As with any character, enough lab time can do wonders.
When d3 gets in he does damage. no question there. the question lies in his ability to get in.

@ CaveLemon CaveLemon be carefull of posting twice in a row its better for you 2 just edit your last post. you can get in trouble.
 
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CaveLemon

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My bad, used to other forums where it's not too strict of a rule. Will do from now on, thanks.
 

HeavyLobster

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Dedede's not terrible, he just has polarizing MUs that make it tough for him to be solo viable. He does actually have a weirdly good MU against Sheik, so he could wind up seeing use as a secondary just for that, but he also gets trashed by so many projectile characters.
 

Smooth Criminal

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almost all of d3's specials are poop expecially gordo's
No I'm pretty sure that the ****tiest move D3 has is Jet Hammer; it's practically useless. Gordos are actually pretty damn useful if they're utilized to condition the opponent, as well as mixing-up and edgeguarding. The crappiest thing about Gordos is that because they can be reflected, you cannot use them straight out of neutral like you would a standard projectile.

@ CaveLemon CaveLemon

His recovery can easily be punished and intercepted, problem with DDD is that his MU is booty but then again he slaughters a few characters like Little Mac.
Warionumbah2 is right here. D3 has some of the most polarizing MUs in the game. If D3 has the advantage in the MU, or if he is even playing against a character that has a slight advantage against him but allows him freedom to do what he wants in neutral, he's fine. Characters that don't allow him the luxury of doing stuff, however, are problematic, be it whether they stuff his approach or he can't stop theirs. True blue zoning characters are in this spectrum, as well.

Also, his recovery? It's meh. Trust me. That super armor won't save you if your opponent bops you after its over. D3's biggest strength here is the fact that he has multiple jumps.

Dedede's not terrible, he just has polarizing MUs that make it tough for him to be solo viable. He does actually have a weirdly good MU against Sheik, so he could wind up seeing use as a secondary just for that, but he also gets trashed by so many projectile characters.
I'm...not so sure that he has a decent MU versus Sheik, tbh. I wanna do my homework more before I start going into why, however, but this is the third or fourth time somebody has mentioned this.

Smooth Criminal
 
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Road Death Wheel

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No I'm pretty sure that the ****tiest move D3 has is Jet Hammer; it's practically useless. Gordos are actually pretty damn useful if they're utilized to condition the opponent, as well as mixing-up and edgeguarding. The crappiest thing about Gordos is that because they can be reflected, you cannot use them straight out of neutral like you would a standard projectile.

@ CaveLemon CaveLemon



Warionumbah2 is right here. D3 has some of the most polarizing MUs in the game. If D3 has the advantage in the MU, or if he is even playing against a character that has a slight advantage against him but allows him freedom to do what he wants in neutral, he's fine. Characters that don't allow him the luxury of doing stuff, however, are problematic, be it whether they stuff his approach or he can't stop theirs. True blue zoning characters are in this spectrum, as well.

Also, his recovery? It's meh. Trust me. That super armor won't save you if your opponent bops you after its over. D3's biggest strength here is the fact that he has multiple jumps.



I'm...not so sure that he has a decent MU versus Sheik, tbh. I wanna do my homework more before I start going into why, however, as this is the third or fourth time somebody has mentioned this.

Smooth Criminal
Ill definitly take your word on:4dedede: but gordo's was so much better pre patch T.T it atleast did not get knocked back from jabs.
 

Z'zgashi

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D3 gets bodied by any Shiek who knows how to sit back and zone with needles.
 

CaveLemon

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Yeah DDD certainly can't use each special efficiently and with certain purpose like Fox/Falco can, for example.

Jet Hammer and Inhale are basically style points.
 

Jigglymaster

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@ Jigglymaster Jigglymaster Brawler's issues have as much to do with being forced to be Medium/Medium as being 1111. Short/Thin Brawler has insane damage output due to his attacks having like no endlag or landing lag, and his smash attacks are much safer for the same reason, giving him good finishers.
Sadly, that might as well fall under custom Brawler as well. Default Mii Brawler is also forced to be stuck at Default Weight/Height. All tournaments will force you to use 1111 and the Guest Mii, which is Default in every single thing.
 

ItsRainingGravy

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If DeDeDe's Inhale actually worked on shielding opponents (applies to Kirby too) like Wario's Chomp, had less startup lag, and maybe a bigger hitbox/more reward, it would be significantly better.

Another thing that doesn't make sense to me: Why is DeDeDe unable to hit his Gordos a second time unless the opponent has already hit them? That makes little to no sense to me. If DeDeDe had the ability to hit his Gordos again after throwing them without needing the opponent to hit it back at him (at which point D3 will probably fail to return it anyways), his ability to have mixups with his projectile's trajectories would dramatically increase, and make it a much more effective special overall. Having less startup lag and reversing the patch that makes weak jabs send Gordos flying back into his face would also be nice.

...then again this is the game which Custom Moves are a thing and Samus doesn't have ICE BEAM sooooo...

D3 doesn't really need a better Up B. It's fine for what it does, even if it isn't the best Up B in the game. You know what he does need though? Better aerial mobility. Imagine: A heavyweight that not only possesses 4 jumps, but would also have decent aerial mobility? You'd better bet that D3 would shoot up a few places on the tier list. And it wouldn't be out of the ballpark for possibilities either. King DeDeDe can actually move pretty fast in the air in a good portion of Kirby games...as a boss character. The sad thing is, most of this aerial mobility is restricted from him in the Kirby games whenever he is an actual playable character. Which sucks, because that part about him is now reflected in Smash Bros, as opposed to his usual mobility statistics as a boss character. (Kirby would also greatly benefit from having more aerial mobility)

As for Jet Hammer? Doesn't really need to be changed that much honestly. Why? Well, it actually comes out pretty fast, and does a surprising amount of knockback even if it is uncharged. Plus it does quite a bit of damage if barely charged. So honestly it is a pretty good special move even if it has limited uses due to being highly punishable. Plus, if we're going to give D3 more aerial mobility, his ability to bob-and-weave in the air with Jet Hammer would also improve, increasing it's chances of being able to hit the opponent. But if I was going to give it something? Being able to shield-cancel the charging animation would be nice. Very nice, actually. And that's about it.


Granted D3 would still have his flaws with all of these buffs. Large hurtbox, slow ground speed, laggy attacks (especially Dash Attack/Fsmash/Dair), Gordos being sent back to him, and etc...but he would be a much better character with these changes and suit his role as a boss/king more, as opposed to a fat derpy penguin. And well, yes, that's what he is, but that's not everything that he is. Much like Wario, whom I am also kind of dissatisfied with because he is only portrayed as a quirky, fat and gross character, just like DeDeDe (minus the gross part). Wario is also incredibly strong, but that's only lightly touched upon in his moveset.

And I am still salty as all hell that they removed his Shoulder Bash... *grumble grumble*


But yeah, all of this is just theory-crafting. The game and characters are what they are, and won't change unless they receive a (pretty unlikely) patch.
 
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Emblem Lord

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People hate on Brawl because they dont understand it. Its actually the deepest smash game even though it had BS. This isnt really a thread for that though.

Well I know I said I wasnt going to say much about pikachu until after the patch, but I guess Ill say a few things. Pikachus ability to kill isnt really as bad as people think, but its percent dependent. Part of this has to do with teching. Coming from melee, and hearing an offhand comment from GIMR about tech chasing I investigated a bit and found pikachu has several moves (including a few critical ones) that will force knockdowns on opponents. Thanks to pikachu's mobility hes able to follow up on these knockdowns (teched or otherwise) with killmoves. As opponents reach higher percents the knockdowns stop working but his other kill moves then come into play.
I hate Brawl because I DO understand it.

Even without the BS, the majority of the cast simply can't compete at a high level.

On Topic: Is saying a strong character is overrated now a thing? That's actually both subjective AND relative.

And even if he is overrated..he is still a strong character and capable of winning tournaments. So is that claim even valid or have any real meaning?
 

Runic_SSB

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he doesn't have any downright terrible moves.
Forward smash, dash attack, down air and down special would like to have a word with you.

As for Dedede in general, he is complete **** I mean seriously Sakurai what did you do to my main has the same problem as Wario; he got nerfed pretty hard, and old Dedede mains don't want to play a bad version of their old main, and the ones who do will be playing him like "bad Dedede" for a while. So, like Wario, we're gonna have to wait until Dedede mains reinvent and optimize him before we see what he's really made of.
 

David Viran

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I hate Brawl because I DO understand it.

Even without the BS, the majority of the cast simply can't compete at a high level.

On Topic: Is saying a strong character is overrated now a thing? That's actually both subjective AND relative.

And even if he is overrated..he is still a strong character and capable of winning tournaments. So is that claim even valid or have any real meaning?
I only liked him calling Pikachu overrated because I've never heard anybody question Pikachu before. And the argument taught me more about Pikachu.
 

Lavani

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once again this confuses me. i get punishing it thats easy. but how in the world are people intercepting this moves it has super armor no?
It's actually heavy armor, and he only has it for a specific section of the rise and a specific section of the descent. Things like Mario's and Yoshi's fair, Luigi's bair, a decent chunk of dairs, etc. will beat it outright.

Guess you're right about his approach, although shorthop nair is pretty decent if you practice it, but having one somewhat okay approach is a big downside.
I don't think nair is ever safe without confusing your opponent by crossing up their shield; it's a shame because its reward is nice, but even as Dedede's lowest landing lag aerial it can be punished by something like Bowser's usmash on shield.

Spaced sh bair is pretty safe as it autocancels and has a lot of shieldstun/pushback, but Dedede still has the issue of getting in range to use it when he's as slow and big as he is.

almost all of d3's specials are poop expecially gordo's
@ Smooth Criminal Smooth Criminal already touched on this slightly, but: Gordos are simultaneously the best and the worst move in the game, you just can't think of them like other projectiles. The fact that it has multiple potential trajectories and hits for a good 14% on its strong hit make it really rewarding, and it can be lodged in ledges to hit opponents out of ledge snaps 100% of the time (at which you can combo into bair for a KO). When you're launched high above the stage, they do a good job at covering descents, and if you don't want to go offstage to edgeguard with Dedede's aerials you can chuck them at opponents recovering low too, or bounce one in place to limit their ledge options. It's a versatile and rewarding tool, it just doesn't do the things Waddle Dees used to do for him in Brawl and he sorely wishes they could.

Jet Hammer's plausibly the worst move in the game, though.
No I'm pretty sure that the ****tiest move D3 has is Jet Hammer; it's practically useless. Gordos are actually pretty damn useful if they're utilized to condition the opponent, as well as mixing-up and edgeguarding. The crappiest thing about Gordos is that because they can be reflected, you cannot use them straight out of neutral like you would a standard projectile.

@ CaveLemon CaveLemon



Warionumbah2 is right here. D3 has some of the most polarizing MUs in the game. If D3 has the advantage in the MU, or if he is even playing against a character that has a slight advantage against him but allows him freedom to do what he wants in neutral, he's fine. Characters that don't allow him the luxury of doing stuff, however, are problematic, be it whether they stuff his approach or he can't stop theirs. True blue zoning characters are in this spectrum, as well.

Also, his recovery? It's meh. Trust me. That super armor won't save you if your opponent bops you after its over. D3's biggest strength here is the fact that he has multiple jumps.



I'm...not so sure that he has a decent MU versus Sheik, tbh. I wanna do my homework more before I start going into why, however, but this is the third or fourth time somebody has mentioned this.

Smooth Criminal
Dedede's not terrible, he just has polarizing MUs that make it tough for him to be solo viable. He does actually have a weirdly good MU against Sheik, so he could wind up seeing use as a secondary just for that, but he also gets trashed by so many projectile characters.
These posts sum things up well; though I'm less and less confident in the Sheik MU bit as the game's progressed. The logic's been that Gordos soak needles, and he outranges and outmuscles her while also surviving to significantly higher percents than she will against him. However she edgeguards him better than he edgeguards her, and as Sheiks progress their combo and setup meta more, Dedede's singular hit damage becomes less of an advantage, and his startup/end lag on everything is quite punishable by her.

As for Jet Hammer? Doesn't really need to be changed that much honestly. Why? Well, it actually comes out pretty fast, and does a surprising amount of knockback even if it is uncharged. Plus it does quite a bit of damage if barely charged.
It's actually piddly uncharged for a move that's slower than Ganondorf's fsmash to both start and end. You're giving it way more credit than it deserves.

Being able to shield cancel it would be heavenly, though.
 
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DavemanCozy

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Sadly, that might as well fall under custom Brawler as well. Default Mii Brawler is also forced to be stuck at Default Weight/Height. All tournaments will force you to use 1111 and the Guest Mii, which is Default in every single thing.
Speaking of weight / height: I'm curious as to how this works on the Miis. I've visited the character pages, but found little info that is precise enough on how combos, KO %, etc are affected. If it's that much of a difference, do you think it's ok to leave them at default height and weight?

I personally think that the whole "default" 1111 moveset is stupid, with every Mii in general. They get shafted for no reason other than this scrubby "fairness" argument I keep seeing. Even if we're going to stick to this customs off meta (which in my opinion, we should), Miis are still free to use their alternate moves. None of them come close to being broken or OP either.

However, I am interested in what you think regarding weights and heights, and if they should be allowed to switch them or enforce the default height / weight.

EDIT: I looked around more and found this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCrBg2ITVZU
 
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NairWizard

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As I said, Pikachu's combos are overrated. From around 50% the most you get with decent DI is utilt-> uair-> uair for a massive ... 15%? And that's From 90% he does not even get that. At higher percents, Pikachu fights for every hit because of his small range, and gets very little reward.

His edgeguarding is overrated - the small range makes it a lot harder than you think, and if you can tech and have a better upB than Mario, good luck getting rid of them. Pika's air movement and range are simply not good enough to be great at intercepting offstage, and in a game where edgehogging does not exist and so many recoveries are so ridiculous,edgeguarding that involves neither spikes nor kill moves like Bouncing Fish or ZSS Bair is of questionable utility. And since Pikachu has so few (read: no) moves with decent knockback and a low angle, forcing the enemy to recover low (the only place where his gimp tools really shine) is impossible.

When it comes to kill moves ... Pikachu is a glass water pistol. He has 5 moves that kill at all at some point:
- Fsmash: slow and unsafe on block
- Usmash: Unsafe on block, tiny
- Dash Attack: Unsafe on block, kills only 130-140
- Thunder: yeah, good luck landing this one against people who can DI
- Uthrow: only at 170% or so (this makes the list because I kill with this often enough to really demonstrate the problem!)

None of them are big and fast, which makes punishing with them pretty hard. None of them are safe. you can't combo into them (except perhaps landing fair-> dash attack, but is not guaranteed depending on how you land, and did I mention how unsafe it is on block?). Every decent kill move has a very high commitment. None of Pika's aerials come close to qualifying as a "decent kill move". Platform camping is against pikachu not as meaningful as against Little Mac, but it comes close. Pikachu can not kill during juggles. He cannot kill when the opponent is on a platform. He can barely kill offstage.

UPB is actually really, really good. But you can not rely on this - it does not have good priority, and anyone with a good shnair or shbair can limit your approaches with it pretty effectively. As the meta develops, this will be less and less useful against top tiers. Diddy can shfair on reaction; sheik shnair; and there is as far as I know not really any way to bait these and punish them due to the high commitment. Good tool? Yes. But it does not really solve problems with Pikachu. Ah, you hit me at 150% with a QA. Now I'm in the air, and there you can't kill me unless you get a read on my landing, and have fun against people like Fox, Sheik, Diddy, ZSS, people with counters, Luigi, Jiggs ... I could go on like this. So have fun with (at most) your still 5 or 10% from uairs. At least I'm a little closer to killing you with uthrow!

Pikachu is not a bad character. He has tools. He can win. He can keep up. But that is not top tier. His kill moves are far too limited and he dies way too early. That is the nastiest part of all this - Pika being a lightweight would not be half as bad if he had decent kill power; but if the opponent survives until 150 or so, you die at 80. And despite his truly outstanding tools this just breaks some matchups in half.
Always nice to see a Pika player.

You're not wrong (with most of it, at least), but you're not quite right either. When I first got the game I started using Pikachu right away because I had used him in Brawl. I became disillusioned quickly because I thought that Thunder was worse, that d-smash was worse, that Quick Attack was worse, and in general that Pikachu's kit didn't have the KO power to keep up with others. I was doing 130% to my opponents and wasn't able to kill them while they were killing me at 80 or 90. It was horrible. I was convinced that Pikachu was average.

There were two reasons for this:
1 is that I was pretty average on the 3DS. Still using Brawl tactics, missing punishes and SD'ing due to the controls, and generally not working with the mechanics of the game. Maybe like a mid-level player overall.
2 is that I wasn't thinking in terms of all of Pikachu's tools and adapting to each matchup. I would try to up-smash Ness and get b-thrown for it and think, wow, Ness has disjoints and kills so early! Surely Ness beats Pikachu!

#1 was resolved near the Wii U release, but #2 wasn't. I had switched to other characters. But then I saw ESAM play in the Wii U invitational, and it struck me just how much he adapted between his two sets with FOW. The Ness MU in particular seemed to flip around inside my head, and I realized that Pikachu was capable of much more than I had envisioned. Going back to him this time, I tried using different KO methods against different characters. I figured out that KO'ing someone as Pikachu is kind of like a puzzle. You can't just use your smashes against Fox, for instance, and expect not to get jab -> jab -> up-smashed. You have to be patient, wait for a b-throw opportunity, and then nail his recovery, which you have about a 50-50 shot at predicting correctly (the up-b is easy to call, but he has two options for the side-b). A 50% chance to kill your opponent from a grab is not bad KO power. Most characters don't have that on Fox, because they don't have Pikachu's n-air and b-air (or high-powered up-smash).

Think of it this way: Pikachu has a better chance of killing Fox at 60 after Fox mistimes an illusion than Diddy does at 60. At 80-90, Pikachu's up-smash will kill while Diddy's f-smash won't (necessarily: depending on stage position). You can DI the d-throw -> up-air if Diddy goes for that punish instead.

For Ness... when Ness is about to use PK Thunder to recover in certain situations I actually jump right TO him and Thunder. Not near him. Not below him. Literally on top of him. It's an outside-of-the-box KO options that most characters don't really have. The only other character with as many options as Pikachu is Sheik, and she might actually have fewer overall.

There are other unique things, such as that Pikachu is one of the few characters who can expend his double jump on and off the stage without worrying, because his up-b lets him land or recover safely. This leads to better KO setups on certain characters, and better mixups/followups on others.

Also, lack of range is kind of a misconception, but the important point is you have to vary your playstyle.

Your post makes me feel like @ Shaya Shaya feels when Lucina v Marth is brought up :)
 

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How is Dedede vs. Diddy? Is the fact that Dedede is the hardest character to kill vertically a significant enough factor in the face of down throw -> up air, or does being that large of a target just make it worse?
 
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Runic_SSB

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Speaking of weight / height: I'm curious as to how this works on the Miis. I've visited the character pages, but found little info that is precise enough on how combos, KO %, etc are affected.
Height effects movement speed, endlag, landing lag, length, and range for :4miigun: (:4miibrawl:'s range is determined by length,
:4miisword:'s range is also improved by having longer arms). Weight effects speed, jump height, weight (thin Mii is Luigi's weight, medium is about Lucario's, fat is Mega Man's), character width, and :4miisword:'s sword size. Length, width and sword size are directly proportional to exactly how tall/fat your Mii is, whereas every other stat is just split into three different values.

If it's that much of a difference, do you think it's ok to leave them at default height and weight?
Absolutely not. Default Mii is not much taller than the tallest quantifiable short Mii, which means that :4miibrawl: and :4miisword: have only slightly better range, but still get the full speed, endlag and landing lag nerfs. Not only that, but the medium weight also makes all of them unnecessarily slower while adding nothing of value.
 
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M15t3R E

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As I said, Pikachu's combos are overrated. From around 50% the most you get with decent DI is utilt-> uair-> uair for a massive ... 15%? And that's From 90% he does not even get that. At higher percents, Pikachu fights for every hit because of his small range, and gets very little reward.

His edgeguarding is overrated - the small range makes it a lot harder than you think, and if you can tech and have a better upB than Mario, good luck getting rid of them. Pika's air movement and range are simply not good enough to be great at intercepting offstage, and in a game where edgehogging does not exist and so many recoveries are so ridiculous,edgeguarding that involves neither spikes nor kill moves like Bouncing Fish or ZSS Bair is of questionable utility. And since Pikachu has so few (read: no) moves with decent knockback and a low angle, forcing the enemy to recover low (the only place where his gimp tools really shine) is impossible.

When it comes to kill moves ... Pikachu is a glass water pistol. He has 5 moves that kill at all at some point:
- Fsmash: slow and unsafe on block
- Usmash: Unsafe on block, tiny
- Dash Attack: Unsafe on block, kills only 130-140
- Thunder: yeah, good luck landing this one against people who can DI
- Uthrow: only at 170% or so (this makes the list because I kill with this often enough to really demonstrate the problem!)

None of them are big and fast, which makes punishing with them pretty hard. None of them are safe. you can't combo into them (except perhaps landing fair-> dash attack, but is not guaranteed depending on how you land, and did I mention how unsafe it is on block?). Every decent kill move has a very high commitment. None of Pika's aerials come close to qualifying as a "decent kill move". Platform camping is against pikachu not as meaningful as against Little Mac, but it comes close. Pikachu can not kill during juggles. He cannot kill when the opponent is on a platform. He can barely kill offstage.

UPB is actually really, really good. But you can not rely on this - it does not have good priority, and anyone with a good shnair or shbair can limit your approaches with it pretty effectively. As the meta develops, this will be less and less useful against top tiers. Diddy can shfair on reaction; sheik shnair; and there is as far as I know not really any way to bait these and punish them due to the high commitment. Good tool? Yes. But it does not really solve problems with Pikachu. Ah, you hit me at 150% with a QA. Now I'm in the air, and there you can't kill me unless you get a read on my landing, and have fun against people like Fox, Sheik, Diddy, ZSS, people with counters, Luigi, Jiggs ... I could go on like this. So have fun with (at most) your still 5 or 10% from uairs. At least I'm a little closer to killing you with uthrow!

Pikachu is not a bad character. He has tools. He can win. He can keep up. But that is not top tier. His kill moves are far too limited and he dies way too early. That is the nastiest part of all this - Pika being a lightweight would not be half as bad if he had decent kill power; but if the opponent survives until 150 or so, you die at 80. And despite his truly outstanding tools this just breaks some matchups in half.
I am so done hearing the chant of "Pikachu lacks kill power". Pikachu's u-smash is among the strongest in the game, his f-smash is pretty darn strong too. Nair can also kill, especially off-stage. And they all come out quickly. Pikachu racks up damage lightning quick with just a few good reads due to his uncanny ability in juggling, grab-combos, and ability to retain stage control. I frequently kill my opponent's at just over 100% and live to at least 120% through proper DI. Oh, and once again, racking up that damage leading to the kill is extremely fast.
Perhaps you need to learn to read your opponent better.
 
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TheReflexWonder

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Could be a game-changer for characters with momentum-shifting attacks or characters that like to have their opponents on the ground--

 
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