Character Competitive Impressions

[Road Death Wheel]

Wait who uses Pika now that ESAM's quit? NAKAT?

What! esam quit pika? Why?!

 

[Sinister Slush]

I believe that one wifi tournament with 1.6k people he played against trela's charizard and won with wft.

 

[thehard]

What! esam quit pika? Why?!

Oh...you didn't know... ;_; He said on Twitter he was dropping Smash 4 after APEX, and he couldn't go to APEX, so...

Also mentioned Brawl was where his heart was.

 

[deepseadiva]

well not primary but but definitly one of his secondaries

Oh okay.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Oh...you didn't know... ;_; He said on Twitter he was dropping Smash 4 after APEX, and he couldn't go to APEX, so...

Also mentioned Brawl was where his heart was.

well he will be missed

 

[⑨ball]

Pikachu's really good so I can't see him being without some solid representation for too long. Really gonna miss ESAM too.

Thinking on that, how do Pikachu mains feel about the new QAC?

Better than Brawl? Worse?

 

[thehard]

well he will be missed

I mean, he can come back whenever he wants to. I'm not sure if some other emotion is making him jump the gun, or if he's serious about it, but yeah, I'll miss him. Pikachu's meta is in such a weird spot right now. Top 3/Top 5 by all accounts but unused.

I don't mean to act as if he's the only one who plays/played Pikachu, btw, I'd love to see good tournament footage, but I know of none.

 

[David Viran]

I mean, he can come back whenever he wants to. I'm not sure if some other emotion is making him jump the gun, or if he's serious about it, but yeah, I'll miss him. Pikachu's meta is in such a weird spot right now. Top 3/Top 5 by all accounts but unused.

I don't mean to act as if he's the only one who plays/played Pikachu, btw, I'd love to see good tournament footage, but I know of none.

There are some decent Pikachus in Japan on the YouTube channel shi-g.

Here's one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ6KM6Nbei8

 

[KenMeister]

Also mentioned Brawl was where his heart was.

That's an odd minority he's part of...

 

[HeavyLobster]

That's an odd minority he's part of...

Yeah, but I guess I can understand it, since I'm apparently the only person who watches Melee who likes seeing Hbox's matches.

 

[KenMeister]

Yeah, but I guess I can understand it, since I'm apparently the only person who watches Melee who likes seeing Hbox's matches.

Not really, I think Hbox is pretty fun to watch, just watching his montage of amazing rest reads is hype enough for me. lol

 

[Eclipse_]

If only ganon's lag after attacking was better

 

[Nobie]

If only ganon's lag after attacking was better

They had already buffed his landing lag between the original 3DS release and the first balance patch. Neutral air has decent landing lag, and forward air has enough shield pushback to make punishes more difficult.

 

[KenMeister]

They had already buffed his landing lag between the original 3DS release and the first balance patch. Neutral air has decent landing lag, and forward air has enough shield pushback to make punishes more difficult.

Assuming you space fair correctly, anyway. You also forgot to mention U-air. That move is beast when you time it right in a short hop vs. smaller characters, and it's all thanks to the landing lag buff. I believe it's Ganon's second fastest move if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

As per Rosalina's match-ups, in my experience her Diddy Kong match-up is drastically improved by Shooting Star Bit and Luma Warp. Those moves are pretty helpful in general, but I feel they help against Diddy more than against anyone else due to how his neutral works. This is a non-trivial reason why I'm such a customs advocate; I'll happily give 30 or so characters better tools to deal with Luma for a substantially improved Diddy match-up.

 

[gameprodigy12]

Disagree, you way overrate my character.

Loses to Diddy hard.

Fox, Sonic, Falcon, Pika, Peach, Olimar, Sheik slightly

Even with ZSS, Yoshi, Luigi, Shulk, TL, Bowser, Charizard, Marth, Lucario

Slight advantage to solid advantage on everyone else


As a side note, made a tier list today, thoughts?

Spoiler

Most disagree with your reasons for Rosa honestly. Not to be mean or anything but nobody is overrating her. Yes she loses to Diddy on occasion or most of the time, don't agree with Fox, Falcon, Yoshi, Luigi, Shulk, TL, Peach, Bowser, Charizard, Marth and Olimar. Mostly even with Sonic, Pika and maybe ZSS. Sheik yes has a slight advantage over her. In all honesty I think you might be underrating her too hard.

 

[Ffamran]

Assuming you space fair correctly, anyway. You also forgot to mention U-air. That move is beast when you time it right in a short hop vs. smaller characters, and it's all thanks to the landing lag buff. I believe it's Ganon's second fastest move if I'm not mistaken.

Going off of @Big O's frame data thread for Ganondorf: smashboards.com/threads/ganon-frame-data-smash-4-edition.383751/.

Uair is Ganondorf's fastest move at frame 6-16, followed by Grab (7-8), Nair (7-13, 20-32), Jab (8-9) , Dash Grab (10-11), Ftilt, Dtilt, and Bair (10-12); and Dash Attack (10-19).

 

[KenMeister]

Going off of @Big O's frame data thread for Ganondorf: smashboards.com/threads/ganon-frame-data-smash-4-edition.383751/.

Uair is Ganondorf's fastest move at frame 6-16, followed by Grab (7-8), Nair (7-13, 20-32), Jab (8-9) , Dash Grab (10-11), Ftilt, Dtilt, and Bair (10-12); and Dash Attack (10-19).

Ah okay, thanks for that, I always mix the speed of nair and uair up for some reason (probably because nair tends the fastest move for 80% of the roster). But still, it's crazy that a move like that is as fast as it is, like holy jeebus.

Most disagree with your reasons for Rosa honestly. Not to be mean or anything but nobody is overrating her. Yes she loses to Diddy on occasion or most of the time, don't agree with Fox, Falcon, Yoshi, Luigi, Shulk, TL, Peach, Bowser, Charizard, Marth and Olimar. Mostly even with Sonic, Pika and maybe ZSS. Sheik yes has a slight advantage over her. In all honesty I think you might be understating her too hard.

You do realize that Dabuz is one of the best, if not the best Rosalina player right now right? I'm pretty sure he knows her more than the rest of us. lol

 

[Ffamran]

Ah okay, thanks for that, I always mix the speed of nair and uair up for some reason (probably because nair tends the fastest move for 80% of the roster). But still, it's crazy that a move like that is as fast as it is, like holy jeebus.

I believe Captain Falcon and Ganondorf share Nair, Uair, Fair, Bair and Dair intial hit frames.

 

[Conda]

You do realize that Dabuz is one of the best, if not the best Rosalina player right now right? I'm pretty sure he knows her more than the rest of us. lol

I think the point is that it doesn't mean he faces the best Bowser, Charizard, Peach, etc players. A lot is still up for debate, nobody really has enough to be 'this is fact' and I'm sure @#HBC | Bunzy knows that - we're all part of a discussion and I'm sure he has more to say on those matchups to explain his current impressions.

 

[gameprodigy12]

You do realize that Dabuz is one of the best, if not the best Rosalina player right now right? I'm pretty sure he knows her more than the rest of us. lol

I know that but he seriously underrates her hard on this. I mean like as I said, I and most of other players or tops don't agree with that.

 

[Conda]

I know that but he seriously underrates her hard on this. I mean like as I said, I and most of other players or tops don't agree with that.

All you're saying is you'd like to know more detail about his matchup impressions. Nothing wrong with that, don't worry.

If ZeRo came in with a tier list, it'd be productive for us to discuss it in detail and not just take it as-is, no questions asked. Nobody would learn anything that way.

 

[gameprodigy12]

All you're saying is you'd like to know more detail about his matchup impressions. Nothing wrong with that, don't worry.

If ZeRo came in with a tier list, it'd be productive for us to discuss it in detail and not just take it as-is, no questions asked. Nobody would learn anything that way.

Yeah exactly, I don't want to be pressured on speaking out on this especially when most would probabley agree with me.

 

[HeroMystic]

That's an odd minority he's part of...

Very off-topic, but I get nostalgic for Brawl too sometimes. There was a lot of dumb **** in there, but characters in general did feel more powerful and had their own thing, unlike now where the meta is literally based off of grabs and follow-ups from it. If you took out MK and ICs you had a pretty playable game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8YxgUTEx9w

I also don't see why people dislike Hbox's playstyle.

 

[KenMeister]

Very off-topic, but I get nostalgic for Brawl too sometimes. There was a lot of dumb **** in there, but characters in general did feel more powerful and had their own thing, unlike now where the meta is literally based off of grabs and follow-ups from it. If you took out MK and ICs you had a pretty playable game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8YxgUTEx9w

I also don't see why people dislike Hbox's playstyle.

But for every grab follow-up you get in Smash 4, you get chain grabs (IC's weren't the only ones who had them, alot of others did too) and grab releases up the ass. Brawl was far worse in that regard. Then again, Brawl is my least favorite game in the series, so part of it is bias I suppose.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Brawler is the biggest wildcard in my mind right now. With customs on he is unquestionably top 5-6, maybe even higher, but even without them he's still great. Personally I think customs on is the only meta that should matter since it is a lot more interesting, fun, and balanced, but the fact is we don't really see a customs meta yet. I fully expect Brawler to be a common tournament staple once more people pick him up, with or without customs.

.

Heavily going to disagree with you here, aside from your with customs statement.

1111 Mii Brawler is a candidate for one of the WORST characters in the game. Let me explain a quick low down as to why he's so terrible.

1. He lacks kill Options
Most characters have either an aerial attack or a grab that can kill. Mii Brawler does not. None of his throws will kill until 200% and the only air attack he can kill with is B-air which doesn't kill until 140%. He has to rely on his Smash attacks, all of which are incredibly slow and punishable, and onslaught AKA Pseudo Raptor Boost, which is even MORE punishable on shield. Without Helicopter Kick or Piston Punch to finish opponents off in the air, one can simply sit in shield and let Mii Brawler throw them, but wait, he can't kill you, then he throws you into the air, thats fine, just land and shield again, its not like he can kill you in the air or from a grab.

2. He lacks damage output.
Again, without Piston Punch and Helicopter Kick, Mii Brawler suffers from low damaging combos, as most of his percent again, comes from those two moves. I'd assume you'd understand by now how important these moves are and why its such a big issue to allow custom moves for this character to be viable.

3. He can't recover
Feint Jump, ah feint jump, how nice it is to have a 3rd jump and a kick that gives you such great horizontal distance and mixup on recovery... wait, you mean this is default Mii Brawler? OH, I DON'T HAVE THAT MOVE NEVERMIND. Riiight I have that Head-on-assault move that has so much risk and no reward. R-right back to recovering... We have what people THINK to be the best UP B of the 3 in terms of recovery, but, is it really? Unlike the other two, it doesn't snap to the ledge, nor does it have active hitboxes protecting you. Yup, you might as well just die because the opponent is never going to let you back to the stage because they'll always be throwing hitboxes out that your poor body will just run right into. Literally nothing you can do.

Can't kill, can't deal damage, can't recover.

These are things Default Mii Brawler can't do, but what Custom Mii Brawler CAN. It makes the difference between being the worst character in the game and the best. They don't even have the same level of mobility, because without Feint Jump, you don't have that mobility! This character imo is on the same level as Default Mii Swordfighter, at least that character can recover better and kill with an air attack.

 

[HeroMystic]

But for every grab follow-up you get in Smash 4, you get chain grabs (IC's weren't the only ones who had them, alot of others did too) and grab releases up the ***. Brawl was far worse in that regard. Then again, Brawl is my least favorite game in the series, so part of it is bias I suppose.

You're absolutely correct. Let it be known I play Mario, where D3 could infinite him, and he had some grab release problems. (and you might as well walk off the stage three times if they pick Metaknight or Marth). Granted, Melee definitely has these problems as well, but it's highlighted more in Brawl because the rewards from hit confirm were extremely poor.

Mario is much better off in Smash 4, but I can't help but find a bit charm in the mess that is Brawl.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Time For The Results Of The Official /r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List!​

It's that time of the month again where I set up a poll to get how the general public is feeling about characters and track these feelings over time. With Apex just ending it seemed like an extra special time to do this. We changed up how the vote worked this month and allowed players to rank each character 1-10, 1 being the worst, and 10 being the best also allowing the option for them not to answer if they didn't know about the character. We're taking those with the highest averages and placing them first going down till we hit the lowest. We also asked for which characters people feel have the most potential, and those they feel are the most overrated and will list the top 3 in both categories.

Since last month's list was obviously VERY iffy, I wont be doing the usual where I compare how the characters went up and down as it'd be kinda pointless. If this new voting method looks more successful, we can do that again come next month.

HERE IS THE TIER LIST!

For those curious in why I split people where, I did try to make different tiers when there were what looked to be significant number differences. The people in B+, B, and B- where all close but JUST far enough away I couldn't justify keeping them all in the exact same same tier. I see some issues in this list too, but it is by far the best list /r/smashbros has probably put out to date. I think the new voting method did the trick!

But Ganon tho

He's not Z tier anymore

 

[Sinister Slush]

Very off-topic, but I get nostalgic for Brawl too sometimes. There was a lot of dumb **** in there, but characters in general did feel more powerful and had their own thing, unlike now where the meta is literally based off of grabs and follow-ups from it. If you took out MK and ICs you had a pretty playable game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8YxgUTEx9w

I also don't see why people dislike Hbox's playstyle.

I was watching Polt vs red halberd back when he was first coined as the Blood God and the meatriding trashtalking etc. was more common back in mid early brawl days. Was a fun nostalgia trip

Yoshi feels like he could've been better if he kept most things he had in brawl outside of no OoS options lol

 

[Road Death Wheel]

just came back from getting my bum semi handed by @Emblem Lord but i must say shiek has some neat uses for grenade that he showed me. mostly for ledge pressure and traps it was really neat. learned alot about that mu.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Psh. Only thing I miss is Brawl Falco. And the ability to cancel spins from the air but I'll live.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I also don't see why people dislike Hbox's playstyle.

Because anything that isn't just charging blindly at your opponent is boring, campy, takes no skill, Brawlish, etc.

 

[mimgrim]

The same goes for at D... probably because no one uses the other Miis. But even with the "default" 1111 moveset, is the Gunner really worse than nearly the entire cast? I dunno about that.
.

Yes. Without customs the only thing the character has is Fair. There is a reason why I refuse to play Gunner (or Miis in general really) without customization. They really are just that bad when they are limited to 1111 average height/weight. :L

 

[Neoleo21]

I appreciate Brawl for its absurdities (sakuraisms if you would), I despised Momentum Cancelling more than any jank in the entire series but I LOVED the roster and the crazy stuff you could do with it (like that Grab Release nonsense), I still think Brawl has the best roster in the series. Smash 4 is a close second cause Shulk, Mewtwo and the custom moves.

I'm actually starting to warm up to Falco now that Jab Cancel Follow ups might be a thing for this guy.

Because anything that isn't just charging blindly at your opponent is boring, campy, takes no skill, Brawlish, etc.

Leffen V Mango must've been disappointing from that perspective, because they really weren't "charging" at all at each other, that match was leffen's fundamentals at some of its finest in Melee despite not being nearly as technically insane as people thought it was going to be. And I think Hungrybox's Puff is a joy to watch from a backseat gaming perspective since its rather nice to take everything in.

 

[Runic_SSB]

@ Jigglymaster Brawler's issues have as much to do with being forced to be Medium/Medium as being 1111. Short/Thin Brawler has insane damage output due to his attacks having like no endlag or landing lag, and his smash attacks are much safer for the same reason, giving him good finishers.

 

[Kofu]

AFAIK it's mostly his aerial game holding him back? They don't do much damage and have a fair amount of landing lag. They're disjointed and G&W himself has good aerial deceleration but I'm not sure what else they have going for them.

This is... somewhat accurate. His aerials aren't bad, per se, but the lag on them gives him poor air-to-ground transitions.

In my mind, his biggest weaknesses are, in order: poor killing options, laggy aerials, and low weight.

His smashes are all decidedly average in kill power, usually ending a stock around 110% fresh. Unfortunately, FSmash and DSmash have sweetspots they need to hit and USmash's hitbox is really small. They all have relatively slow releases. FSmash is frame 17, DSmash is frame 15, and USmash is frame 24 (second slowest USmash overall according to this thread. His USmash is somewhat better for the invincibility frames, but it's still really slow for its tiny range. Obviously 9s and certain Oil Panic attacks kill really early but they're either unreliable or unavailable in certain matchups. He also has a good gimping game thanks to his big disjointed aerials. But outside of those five difficult to land/inconsistent options he struggles to kill. DAir can meteor and UAir kills pretty well if you can land that second hit, though.

Now, his aerials. Actually, scratch that, I'll start by mentioning his ground game, which is actually functional. Now that his jab is a decent option and his dash attack moves him forward, he has some reasonable CQC options. Unfortunately his aerials don't lend themselves to flowing into his ground game well. FAir would, but it has miserable hitstun. NAir does a decent job, though, if you cancel it into the ground before the final hit appears.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I'm actually starting to warm up to Falco now that Jab Cancel Follow ups might be a thing for this guy.

I like 4 Falco too. But they took away a character for me. It'd be like if they took Ryu and said, Here. He plays like Dee Jay! He has a fireball and a reversal. Close enough! Sure the replacement is fun but it's not my character.

Hbox is fun to watch. There's nothing wrong with defensive play. When both people have defensive styles and the game supports it by having low reward for offense is when the criticism starts being valid. Not like Hbox doesn't chase them once he makes his opening.

 

[HeroMystic]

I like 4 Falco too. But they took away a character for me. It'd be like if they took Ryu and said, Here. He plays like Dee Jay! He has a fireball and a reversal. Close enough! Sure the replacement is fun but it's not my character.

Confession: For a long time in Brawl, I told myself if I were to give up on Mario, I would go Falco in tournaments. Falco felt good to play and SHDL is satisfying. That said, I didn't give up on Mario and just gave up on Brawl instead.

Falco in Smash 4 I really can't make heads or tails out of. I mean... yeah, he is a CQC fighter and he's got solid combos, but his horizontal mobility is bad and after playing Mario so much I'm having a hard time clicking with it because Falco's approach methods are bad because of it. Which is awkward because whenever I do get hit confirm on Falco I squee a bit because that's when Falco gets really fun.

 

[Djent]

I think the fact that almost everyone dropped Brawl (and also that half of good players who entered @ Apex dropped out after the reschedule) says a lot, really. People "love" Brawl but won't do **** for it. I kind of miss it, but to tell you the truth I'm the same way. So I guess it's not really "love" any more than a faint fond memory of an otherwise bull**** romantic relationship is "love."

Anywayyy

I'm not worried about Pikachu finding good top player representation even with ESAM. Hell, mid-level players can get a lot done with him as well. I am worried about Yoshi, though. I think a game where Sheik isn't the #1 character is one that looks a lot better from him, and the consensus seems to be that we're playing that game. America needs someone to make omelettes out of the people who think his grab game is weak.

 

[HeroMystic]

I think the fact that almost everyone dropped Brawl (and also that half of good players who entered @ Apex dropped out after the reschedule) says a lot, really. People "love" Brawl but won't do **** for it. I kind of miss it, but to tell you the truth I'm the same way. So I guess it's not really "love" any more than a faint fond memory of an otherwise bull**** romantic relationship is "love."

Guilty Pleasure.

You know it's ****, but you can't help but smile at it.