Character Competitive Impressions

[Nocally]

Pikachu's really good so I can't see him being without some solid representation for too long. Really gonna miss ESAM too.

Thinking on that, how do Pikachu mains feel about the new QAC?

Better than Brawl? Worse?

I Liked the Brawl one better, but it's hard to say the sm4sh is worse because of it's new properties. It's different and still usable in new ways, just like Pika´s new Thunder. It's hard calling them worse, they are just different.

 

[Yokoblue]

I'm really sad that Esam stopped playing but lets be glad that we got another active pro that started to have a pika secondary (nakat)

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Pikachu is the single most overrated character in Smash 4.

Discuss.

 

[Yokoblue]

Pikachu is the single most overrated character in Smash 4.

Discuss.

Discuss yourself... Why is he overrated ?

 

[Tagxy]

People hate on Brawl because they dont understand it. Its actually the deepest smash game even though it had BS. This isnt really a thread for that though.

Well I know I said I wasnt going to say much about pikachu until after the patch, but I guess Ill say a few things. Pikachus ability to kill isnt really as bad as people think, but its percent dependent. Part of this has to do with teching. Coming from melee, and hearing an offhand comment from GIMR about tech chasing I investigated a bit and found pikachu has several moves (including a few critical ones) that will force knockdowns on opponents. Thanks to pikachu's mobility hes able to follow up on these knockdowns (teched or otherwise) with killmoves. As opponents reach higher percents the knockdowns stop working but his other kill moves then come into play.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

As I said, Pikachu's combos are overrated. From around 50% the most you get with decent DI is utilt-> uair-> uair for a massive ... 15%? And that's From 90% he does not even get that. At higher percents, Pikachu fights for every hit because of his small range, and gets very little reward.

His edgeguarding is overrated - the small range makes it a lot harder than you think, and if you can tech and have a better upB than Mario, good luck getting rid of them. Pika's air movement and range are simply not good enough to be great at intercepting offstage, and in a game where edgehogging does not exist and so many recoveries are so ridiculous,edgeguarding that involves neither spikes nor kill moves like Bouncing Fish or ZSS Bair is of questionable utility. And since Pikachu has so few (read: no) moves with decent knockback and a low angle, forcing the enemy to recover low (the only place where his gimp tools really shine) is impossible.

When it comes to kill moves ... Pikachu is a glass water pistol. He has 5 moves that kill at all at some point:
- Fsmash: slow and unsafe on block
- Usmash: Unsafe on block, tiny
- Dash Attack: Unsafe on block, kills only 130-140
- Thunder: yeah, good luck landing this one against people who can DI
- Uthrow: only at 170% or so (this makes the list because I kill with this often enough to really demonstrate the problem!)

None of them are big and fast, which makes punishing with them pretty hard. None of them are safe. you can't combo into them (except perhaps landing fair-> dash attack, but is not guaranteed depending on how you land, and did I mention how unsafe it is on block?). Every decent kill move has a very high commitment. None of Pika's aerials come close to qualifying as a "decent kill move". Platform camping is against pikachu not as meaningful as against Little Mac, but it comes close. Pikachu can not kill during juggles. He cannot kill when the opponent is on a platform. He can barely kill offstage.

UPB is actually really, really good. But you can not rely on this - it does not have good priority, and anyone with a good shnair or shbair can limit your approaches with it pretty effectively. As the meta develops, this will be less and less useful against top tiers. Diddy can shfair on reaction; sheik shnair; and there is as far as I know not really any way to bait these and punish them due to the high commitment. Good tool? Yes. But it does not really solve problems with Pikachu. Ah, you hit me at 150% with a QA. Now I'm in the air, and there you can't kill me unless you get a read on my landing, and have fun against people like Fox, Sheik, Diddy, ZSS, people with counters, Luigi, Jiggs ... I could go on like this. So have fun with (at most) your still 5 or 10% from uairs. At least I'm a little closer to killing you with uthrow!

Pikachu is not a bad character. He has tools. He can win. He can keep up. But that is not top tier. His kill moves are far too limited and he dies way too early. That is the nastiest part of all this - Pika being a lightweight would not be half as bad if he had decent kill power; but if the opponent survives until 150 or so, you die at 80. And despite his truly outstanding tools this just breaks some matchups in half.

 

[Antonykun]

Pikachu's really good so I can't see him being without some solid representation for too long. Really gonna miss ESAM too.

Thinking on that, how do Pikachu mains feel about the new QAC?

Better than Brawl? Worse?

I used to main pika. QAC smash 4 QA are like two different things. QAC was a mobility and get out of jail free card while smash 4 QA is a safe pressure tool.

 

[Tagxy]

Stuff

Ok but I think you dont know how to pika.

>Can't combo at 50%:
Utilt > FF Fair > grab > pwnage
Utilt > upair > bair, nair, fair (maybe even dair)

>no big fast aerials
http://pastebin.com/vRk1UsHe
http://pastebin.com/NJ4Q5PzU

>Aerials that dont kill
Bair

Also QA only doesnt have good priority on its transition, which most peeps will use incorrectly and leave exposed. Thats perhaps its biggest improvement from QAC which happened on the transition.

Eh, can't go over everything, but I suggest scouring the pikaboards and smashboards for how to improve with pika.

 

[the king of murder]

Well, I have seen some decent to top Pikachu's play including NAKAT against Ally and ESAM(not many, though). Since I don't play this character I don't have as much deeper understanding as the mains, so don't quickattack me if I make a wrong statement but seeing this video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvU5RQ-nJog&feature=youtu.be&t=5m3s, makes up-b seem like a godly move for rushing down your opponents and pressuring.

I see a lot of Pikas not utilizing it as much, how come?

 

[Tagxy]

QA is sort of a lazy move, one of those things that you can abuse against people who dont know how to deal with it. But peeps can also learn how to not let others abuse it freely. However the move has more depth to its use and in some sense theres a right way to use QA and a wrong way. Sort of hinted at one of those aspects in my last post. Most people dont really know how to use it well beyond a first level abuse.

 

[MartinAW4]

Having quite a bit of experience against this one (sparring with one of the better players in my local scene, who mains Greninja) and labbing this MU a lot because of it, I must disagree with Rosa having a clear advantage for reasons similar why she is not beating Pikachu.

Rosalina has more effective range but she is very susceptible to Greninja's good spacing moves (FAir and BAir) which are not hard to hit due to her tall hurtbox, furthermore she has a blind spot against those moves unless you're going for a risky anti-air FAir or Starbits, both easily punished because of Greninja's speed. NAir is a good option but Greninja has the mobility to be patient around it. Greninja's properly spaced FAir is also safe on shield (almost sure it is) and can potentially kill Luma on hit.

Fully charged Shurikens are easily GP'd with proper spacing but any other Shuriken mixup is a considerable risk and your best option is powershielding because Greninja's ground speed can catch up with most of your options. Once Greninja manages to get in Rosa it can be very hard to shake him off with his mobiity specs and his mid-range mixups, specially dash-grab (people are underrating that move, probably one of the best dash-grabs in the game).

Due to Rosalina's hurtbox, Greninja has better access to his combos and kill-setups coming from NAir since it's a lot easier to connect on her (However, his NAir -> FAir and NAir -> USmash follow-ups are more % specific because of Rosa's floatiness) which is quite a big deal for a very lightweight character like Rosa. Greninja's overall kill power is also very threatening, one sweet-spotted USmash can kill ridiculously early and is not that impossible to land due to the below:

Once at disadavantage, Rosalina is juggle material for Greninja due her floatiness and his aerial mobility. Frog's UAir will cleanly beat most of her options due to frame advantage (including DAir unless you use it preemptively, which is risky due to baits). Air-dodge too much and you're risking getting hit by his FAir because of it's delayed start-up covering most of the air-dodge active frames. Greninja can react to most of her landing options accordingly, with his ground speed and the abovementioned strong dash grab, which Rosalina has little answer against (best option being Dtilt). Offstage she is prone to hydropump and BAir stage spike due to her hitboxless, predictable recovery.

On the plus side for Rosa, she can wall him effectively on the ground at Starbits' range (Jab, Ftilt, Dtilt, NAir and Starbits being her best friends), FSmash (Luma hitbox) can mess a lot of Greninja's optimal spacing and he doesn't have many truly oppressive ways of killing Luma easily other then Jab3 (usually Luma dies due to HP, not offstage KO). Greninja is also prone to Rosa's juggling and edgeguard just like 90% of the cast. I'd go into more details but I'm not interested in making this a bigger wall of text than it already is.

If anything it's probably an even matchup.

We`re discussing the Rosalina matchup right now at the Greninja boards. Mind if I post this there?

 

[mario123007]

We`re discussing the Rosalina matchup right now at the Greninja boards. Mind if I post this there?

You can also discuss her match up in Rosalina Match up thread.
http://smashboards.com/threads/rosalina-match-up-analysis-vs-sheik.380230/page-11

 

[ChronoPenguin]

You mean that special that does incredible shield damage, travels full stage for roll chases or just safe landings, combos for as much as 38% and can carry characters offstage into the blastzone? True story, no way something like this could be good.


Shorthop auto canceling projectiles that never stale and double as spikes and combo in from her other aerials. One of which operates like a Gordo creating multiple hitboxes to deal with on the approach or reatreat, another that hits at the same angle as Pac Man's apple, has enough hitstun to combo into her killmoves, and sits on the ground preventing ground approaches. Yeah, you're right. What was I thinking these moves are terrible. ):

You've convinced me with your indepth analysis here alright. I mean what good are moves that buff your damage and knockback enough that you kill off the top as early as 65%? Also lowering damage and knockback and healing as a bonus everytime? Dumb. Not to mention having the option to turn into a moving explosive that reaches farther than Robin's thunder. I don't even know what I was thinking, imagining using a move that increases your weight so much that you can punish a character for throwing you could be useful.

Geez, sorry about that. I was just thinking that having one projectile that nullifies things like Luma shot, fireballs, gordos, frisbees, thunderjolts, ect. and keeps going to create pressure, while also being able to carry opponents offstage would be a pretty powerful option. Thinking about it now it does sound pretty weak.

Also that giantic one that can stop approaches, controls space and becomes a kill move that travels fast and hits hard safely? Completely worthless. I mean who's ever heard of a charge cancelable projectile that heals being good?


Nothing in these sentences happen to conflict with what I said, but it's worth noting that none of these MU's are particularly bad for her. With her weakest area being her approach which, honestly with movement options like sliding backward in neutral to bait mistakes--isn't that weak imo.


Interesting is a neat word to for good damage and kill combos. Barely landing anything is a player problem bud. If Mario and Luigi have less range on their normals and aerials, why shouldn't a decent player be able to hit with hers?


It's not really a character's fault that a player doesn't know their spacing or hitboxes. The only characters she has difficulty hitting are tiny character. This is something she can utilize herself lowering herself low enough to duck under things like Sheik's grab, any SH aerial approaches and so on.

It sucks and we know that. Weaknesses aren't an uncommon thing in fighting games but it's also not uncommon for players to be able to work around them. Her specials certainly help in this regard.


I'll agree with you on the jumbo hoops but if you sleep on a move like this, you'll be the first one complaining about it later.
Good specials do not make good characters, good normals and being able to use them efficiently do. If anything good specials compliment characters normals rounding them out to be better characters.

Can you imagine what Sheik would be like without Bouncing Fish or Vanish? Maybe with her chain and a tether grab like Brawl olimar's instead? Certainly not a bad character in this regard, but she'd have something missing. Something that'd connect what works already together.

How about Sonic without the spin dash/charge spin or the spring? Replace them with something questionable like his double spring or the meteor homing attack. His ground game is still good, as is his mixup game, but there'd be a lack of something powerful there to tie it all together.

WFT has a good kit. Most people don't say it's bad. They say things like it's wonky, or weird, awkward, ect. This is because there is something missing that connects everything that already works. Her customs happen to be that.


Reflectors in general are not the best idea against moves that can cancel and thus bait. Powerthrust doesn't seem like a good approach or option in general so I'm not sure who if anyone would have an issue against this move.

There aren't many characters that do well against pressure from below which is why you'll often see players reset to neutral rather than attempting to "contest" uairs or whatever. In these situations it certainly helps to have momentum altering specials and decent air speed like WFT has. Btw nair is really good, but yes invincible Usmash does in fact "beat out his Nair". Oop.

The idea of "rocketing" to the top 10 assumes she's low enough in the first place that'd it'd be some huge leap and this might be the case for you and anyone else that doesn't know better, but I haven't agreed completely with ANY tier list that's been posted even though I understand how the misconception could arise when there is very little information on her with only 1 solid rep.

Not even that is uncommon however. Everyone called Megaman bad, suddenly--Zucco, NinjaLink, Styles. Suddenly, "Oh yah jump n shoot man is gud!" Pac Man completely underrated by everyone except Pac Main's. Abandango shows up? Now everyone goes to the church of Pac Man. Ike is STILL at the bottom of most people's tier lists despite Ryo and Ryuga doing phenomenoally well with him. Miis were all trash tier until we started really figuring out what they could do, especially with customs. Olimar got over looked too. All it took was Rich Brown and Dabuz before everyone decided he was so good.

Now I say that the character I use is actually decent in lieu of a plethora of myths and misinformation that was spread and proven wrong by the frame data Thinkaman collected and gets even better with her customs covering her weaknesses and I get this post from you that's not even inquiring why or inviting discussion. Just a bunch of rabble that makes it sound like you're offended for some reason.


Most good characters already have great specials and I don't think this is a coincedince. Metaknight being the only character in that list that I know for sure has some issues but has a better default set imo.

Your entitled to your opinion. If you gave any hint that you had some understanding of the character I might've been inclined to even go as far as entertaining your theory fighter--but you didn't, and I don't have any interest in conversation that amounts to "no u" so I guess we'll see.



DKWill still performs well despite this.

I didn't say Jumbo-hoop was bad, I said it's overrated. The hitbox is still "small" enough for multiple attacks to go through, it has *Significant* ending lag, and leaves you very vulnerable both on whiff and if they escape at any point. You get a DK cyclone with more damage in exchange for safety.


Let us make a long story short.

The idea of "rocketing" to the top 10 assumes she's low enough in the first place that'd it'd be some huge leap and this might be the case for you and anyone else that doesn't know better, but I haven't agreed completely with ANY tier list that's been posted even though I understand how the misconception could arise when there is very little information on her with only 1 solid rep.

The idea is that We have over 50 characters with custom movesets, nearly all of them grabbing benefit from them and multiple having stronger normals to boot. I should consider WFT top 10, because I can shield out Jumbo hoop and get a free hit? That if I break out I can get a free hit, the fact that hell I can straight up outrange it, or that it's Vertical growth is actually poor even when mashed leading to a particularly linear recovery one should make no illusions of its safety just because it has a hitbox.
She can controls more space with Customs, which simultaneously helps her edgeguard which is aidful if we don't forget that she controls very little in close-range despite her attacking both sides.

You can *absolutely* colour me pessimistic, that a character with her CQC spacing is damned out of top 10, when part of her support is disregarding Jumbo-hoops limitations, and acting that Headers spike is anything but inconsistent given a hitbox as small if not less wieldy then Rest.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Ok but I think you dont know how to pika.

>Can't combo at 50%:
Utilt > FF Fair > grab > pwnage
Utilt > upair > bair, nair, fair (maybe even dair)

>no big fast aerials
http://pastebin.com/vRk1UsHe
http://pastebin.com/NJ4Q5PzU

>Aerials that dont kill
Bair

Also QA only doesnt have good priority on its transition, which most peeps will use incorrectly and leave exposed. Thats perhaps its biggest improvement from QAC which happened on the transition.

Eh, can't go over everything, but I suggest scouring the pikaboards and smashboards for how to improve with pika.

The point is that his combo potential falls off rapidly, his kill moves are very hard to land, and he has trouble murdering you off juggles. And no, Bair is not a reliable kill move by any stretch of the imagination. And yes, his range is not that great - he throws his whole hurtbox into it, leaving him vulnerable. Compare to that someone like ZSS, and you'll see a huge difference.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

The point is that his combo potential falls off rapidly, his kill moves are very hard to land, and he has trouble murdering you off juggles. And no, Bair is not a reliable kill move by any stretch of the imagination. And yes, his range is not that great - he throws his whole hurtbox into it, leaving him vulnerable. Compare to that someone like ZSS, and you'll see a huge difference.

Being able to kill early or late is not important this early in the meta sadly. Whats dictating most top tiers is high class mobility and strong combo ability. both of witch pika has. even if the combo's them selves are inconsistant.

 

[AvariceX]

I didn't say Jumbo-hoop was bad, I said it's overrated. The hitbox is still "small" enough for multiple attacks to go through, it has *Significant* ending lag, and leaves you very vulnerable both on whiff and if they escape at any point. You get a DK cyclone with more damage in exchange for safety.

If you ever land with Jumbo Hoop in such a way that you incur punishable ending lag you are already using it wrong. Just go to the ledge, it's not like you can be edge-hogged in this game. I have no delusions of WFT being top 10, but you are underrating Jumbo Hoop.

 

[HeroMystic]

Pikachus ability to kill isnt really as bad as people think, but its percent dependent.

I'm starting to understand every character has this problem. I know for a fact Mario has percent-specific combos he can do which can potentially write off stocks very quickly, but rage can mess this up. I believe ZSS has this problem too with her U-air > U-air > Up-B combo.

 

[Tagxy]

The point is that his combo potential falls off rapidly, his kill moves are very hard to land, and he has trouble murdering you off juggles. And no, Bair is not a reliable kill move by any stretch of the imagination. And yes, his range is not that great - he throws his whole hurtbox into it, leaving him vulnerable. Compare to that someone like ZSS, and you'll see a huge difference.

Why would you comment on his range before looking at the charts I posted?

Pika can combo off his fair and QA for a long time (utilt stops comboing but then starts again later). Being able to combo off QA is a big deal because he's able to extend combos on opponents he knocks far away. It is true that pikachu doesnt have a big finisher aerial, but besides uair theyre also all kill moves (especially bair) offstage around 100% and onstage starting around 150%. As for killing in general almost all of pikachus attacks become kill moves around 150%, but even before that he has percent specific tricks he can do that you should take time to research.

 

[Radical Larry]

Heavily going to disagree with you here, aside from your with customs statement.

1111 Mii Brawler is a candidate for one of the WORST characters in the game. Let me explain a quick low down as to why he's so terrible.

1. He lacks kill Options
Most characters have either an aerial attack or a grab that can kill. Mii Brawler does not. None of his throws will kill until 200% and the only air attack he can kill with is B-air which doesn't kill until 140%. He has to rely on his Smash attacks, all of which are incredibly slow and punishable, and onslaught AKA Pseudo Raptor Boost, which is even MORE punishable on shield. Without Helicopter Kick or Piston Punch to finish opponents off in the air, one can simply sit in shield and let Mii Brawler throw them, but wait, he can't kill you, then he throws you into the air, thats fine, just land and shield again, its not like he can kill you in the air or from a grab.

2. He lacks damage output.
Again, without Piston Punch and Helicopter Kick, Mii Brawler suffers from low damaging combos, as most of his percent again, comes from those two moves. I'd assume you'd understand by now how important these moves are and why its such a big issue to allow custom moves for this character to be viable.

3. He can't recover
Feint Jump, ah feint jump, how nice it is to have a 3rd jump and a kick that gives you such great horizontal distance and mixup on recovery... wait, you mean this is default Mii Brawler? OH, I DON'T HAVE THAT MOVE NEVERMIND. Riiight I have that Head-on-assault move that has so much risk and no reward. R-right back to recovering... We have what people THINK to be the best UP B of the 3 in terms of recovery, but, is it really? Unlike the other two, it doesn't snap to the ledge, nor does it have active hitboxes protecting you. Yup, you might as well just die because the opponent is never going to let you back to the stage because they'll always be throwing hitboxes out that your poor body will just run right into. Literally nothing you can do.

Can't kill, can't deal damage, can't recover.

These are things Default Mii Brawler can't do, but what Custom Mii Brawler CAN. It makes the difference between being the worst character in the game and the best. They don't even have the same level of mobility, because without Feint Jump, you don't have that mobility! This character imo is on the same level as Default Mii Swordfighter, at least that character can recover better and kill with an air attack.

I agree about this. And let me add a fourth thing: he has no range. None of his attacks have the range to really give him a boon, and any attack that is a non-body hitbox will punish the Brawler severely. There's nothing Brawler can use to punish anyone coming close, except Shotput, which is a very poor type of move (which I always replace with another Custom due to it being so terrible).

I believe the Miis are negligibly viable in tournaments, meaning they won't be going any higher than the bottom tiers. With customs however, they may rise up to a higher ground, and that's how like I like my Swordfighters (especially my Jeff the Killer Custom Mii).

 

[ChronoPenguin]

If you ever land with Jumbo Hoop in such a way that you incur punishable ending lag you are already using it wrong. Just go to the ledge, it's not like you can be edge-hogged in this game. I have no delusions of WFT being top 10, but you are underrating Jumbo Hoop.

b-b-b-but I said
She can controls more space with Customs, which simultaneously helps her edgeguard which is aidful if we don't forget that she controls very little in close-range despite her attacking both sides.
Can I not be concise and cover everything Q_Q.

 

[⑨ball]

I didn't say Jumbo-hoop was bad, I said it's overrated. The hitbox is still "small" enough for multiple attacks to go through, it has *Significant* ending lag, and leaves you very vulnerable both on whiff and if they escape at any point. You get a DK cyclone with more damage in exchange for safety.

I also said I agree with you there in that it's overrated. Not to such an extent that we deny a move that has long lasting high damage active frames is bad, just so much that people were saying things like "best move in the game" "single handedly makes her viable" ect.

Significant end lag is a moot point honestly as it has enough active frames and control that you can move from one side of the stage and drop to the ledge on the other. Not to mention it's not as if you ever have to use it raw. It combos in from plenty of her other options and is active long enough that air dodges are a joke.

The idea is that We have over 50 characters with custom movesets, nearly all of them grabbing benefit from them and multiple having stronger normals to boot.

The strength of other characters normals don't define your own. Good characters have good normals and aerials that set up solid fundamentals use. Good specials round out character weaknesses.

I should consider WFT top 10, because I can shield out Jumbo hoop and get a free hit? That if I break out I can get a free hit, the fact that hell I can straight up outrange it, or that it's Vertical growth is actually poor even when mashed leading to a particularly linear recovery one should make no illusions of its safety just because it has a hitbox.

No one asked you to consider anything. I quoted AvariceX in response to him as I know he's a player that was interested in WFT from him being around the boards.

That aside you're wrong again. If you think you're going to shield out Jumbo Hoops you might want to check how much shield damage we're talking. From a full shield it almost always shield pokes and it's not as if she's short on high shield damaging attacks that she can use with relative safety besides.

All of your suppositions lie with the idea that for some reason WFT needs to use it raw like Monkey Flip or Spin Dash. Just because she can doesn't mean it's the best option. It's much more optimal OoS or as a combo extender/ edge guard.

Vertical growth is actually fine. Not as much as default, but enough that the magnifying glass with her jump isn't a stretch. It's also not uncommon that characters with bad recoveries have been considered top tier. Also since when do recoveries need to be safe for a character to be considered one of the best? Rosalina has no hitbox at all but no one doubts her, and Diddy gets gimped by taps on his recovery.

She can controls more space with Customs, which simultaneously helps her edgeguard which is aidful if we don't forget that she controls very little in close-range despite her attacking both sides.

*She controls very little in close-range with her normals. This is fine as the space she does control there comes out quick, hits hard, and has good damage. Luckily she also has a plethora of specials that control the space her normals do not, which given customs is exponentially increased.

You can *absolutely* colour me pessimistic, that a character with her CQC spacing is damned out of top 10, when part of her support is disregarding Jumbo-hoops limitations, and acting that Headers spike is anything but inconsistent given a hitbox as small if not less wieldy then Rest.

That's fine. I'm not here to convince anyone with words. I've been here since the early Brawl days and have been playing smash since 64 I know better than to try to give people a heads up on things without the type of credibility that a recognized tournament player has. If I have anything to say on the subject that isn't an overly verbose post about her merits, it's that she's better than people think she is, and while I can understand the opinion based on what people know (which is practically nothing) it's going to be a very jarring experience for a lot of people when she is played, even more so when she gets to use tools that round out her already decent kit.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Honestly why in the two ****s is wft trainer being argued over. @ ChronoPenguin even states that he does not think shes bad just not top ten. And excuse me if my basic comprehension skills are off, so do the people that are arguing in the first place. Like really wtf?

 

[HeroMystic]

Being able to kill early or late is not important this early in the meta sadly. Whats dictating most top tiers is high class mobility and strong combo ability. both of witch pika has. even if the combo's them selves are inconsistant.

Mobility and Combos are only part of what is actually dictating this meta: Control.

Diddy is top tier because he has the ability to control every MU. Through bananas, command grabs, and U-air, players are often forced to play at Diddy's pace. Same goes for Sonic, Rosalina, and Sheik.

Mobility is only a factor because it gives you the ability to chase down your opponent, unlike if you were, say, Ganondorf. Ganondorf has to make (hard) reads and make you fear using that mobility against him, because you don't want to get hit. Rosalina, who is definitely not a combo character, demands control just from the fact it's so difficult to hit her in the first place.

 

[warionumbah2]

Having reliable kill set ups is the icing on the cake: Sheik,ZSS,Greninja,MK,Diddy,C.Falcon,Luigi etc.

Alot of characters need reads to snag kills.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Mobility and Combos are only part of what is actually dictating this meta: Control.

Diddy is top tier because he has the ability to control every MU. Through bananas, command grabs, and U-air, players are often forced to play at Diddy's pace. Same goes for Sonic, Rosalina, and Sheik.

Mobility is only a factor because it gives you the ability to chase down your opponent, unlike if you were, say, Ganondorf. Ganondorf has to make (hard) reads and make you fear using that mobility against him, because you don't want to get hit. Rosalina, who is definitely not a combo character, demands control just from the fact it's so difficult to hit her in the first place.

there is a specific reason as to why i never used any statements that were set in stone. i said "most" top tiers. There will always be exeptions to everything in life. Control is definitly an aspect thats determined quality is "normaly" tied into mobilty and projectiles there are exeptions of course, aka rosalina.

But what i can say for sure is that if one were to strip mobility or stong combo game, from diddy, shiek, rosa, and sonic, and lets say zzs as well it would essentially destroy what makes majority of the current top teirs so able to what they so want to.

Mobility+safety= control

projectiles+ combo ability= respect

Control+respect= Diddy

 

[⑨ball]

Honestly why in the two sh#ts is wft trainer being argued over. @ ChronoPenguin even states that he does not think shes bad just not top ten. And excuse me if my basic comprehension skills are off, so do the people that are arguing in the first place. Like really wtf?

Because this is the character competitive impressions thread?
I gave an opinion, he disagreed, the person I was talking to disagreed. This is fine and how discussions progress. It only looks like an argument because the majority of my posts towards him are correcting him.

I have a question for you and everyone here that's sort of related:

What do you think makes a top tier in this game?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Because this is the character competitive impressions thread?
I gave an opinion, he disagreed, the person I was talking to disagreed. This is fine and how discussions progress. It only looks like an argument because the majority of my posts towards him are correcting him.

I have a question for you and everyone here that's sort of related:

What do you think makes a top tier in this game?

what a coincidence the last few post were just speaking of that.

Also just paying attention to the back and forth of you 2 it just seemed like people were arguing over an agreement.
wft gets better with customs but no one is going to delusion themselves with her being top 10 until some physical evidence starts to pour in and not just theory craft.

 

[HeroMystic]

Having reliable kill set ups is the icing on the cake: Sheik,ZSS,Greninja,MK,Diddy,C.Falcon,Luigi etc.

Alot of characters need reads to snag kills.

I'm actually starting to believe this is going to become a big deal later on. As stated before, plenty if not all characters have percent-specific combos they can do which can secure stocks quickly, but is hampered by stale moves and rage. The fact that Luigi, MK, Sonic, Fox(I think) and Ness all have reliable kill setups regardless of percent will be a huge boon to them.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I'm actually starting to believe this is going to become a big deal later on. As stated before, plenty if not all characters have percent-specific combos they can do which can secure stocks quickly, but is hampered by stale moves and rage. The fact that Luigi, MK, Sonic, Fox(I think) and Ness all have reliable kill setups regardless of percent will be a huge boon to them.

i personally feel like this will be bigger in the future as well.
But i also feel that as the meta progresses people will start to apreciate safe kill options like thoron, charge shot, and waft as there are really few of those types of options.

 

[Yokoblue]

Because this is the character competitive impressions thread?
I gave an opinion, he disagreed, the person I was talking to disagreed. This is fine and how discussions progress. It only looks like an argument because the majority of my posts towards him are correcting him.

I have a question for you and everyone here that's sort of related:

What do you think makes a top tier in this game?

The combination of lagless moves, combos and kill potential. Speed would be a good point as well but with lagless move it usually comes with it.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Fox has that jab double jab usmash thing on some characters. Don't know if it's anyone but I know it's at kill percents for a few. 2 frame kill confirm. Pretty nice.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I also said I agree with you there in that it's overrated. Not to such an extent that we deny a move that has long lasting high damage active frames is bad, just so much that people were saying things like "best move in the game" "single handedly makes her viable" ect.

Significant end lag is a moot point honestly as it has enough active frames and control that you can move from one side of the stage and drop to the ledge on the other. Not to mention it's not as if you ever have to use it raw. It combos in from plenty of her other options and is active long enough that air dodges are a joke.

Air dodging is only done if you have a slow option against WFT, generally a character outranges her and will, DI and attack back.

The strength of other characters normals don't define your own. Good characters have good normals and aerials that set up solid fundamentals use. Good specials round out character weaknesses.

Except characters being 'top' isn't in a vaccuum it's in relation to other characters.

No one asked you to consider anything. I quoted AvariceX in response to him as I know he's a player that was interested in WFT from him being around the boards.

That aside you're wrong again. If you think you're going to shield out Jumbo Hoops you might want to check how much shield damage we're talking. From a full shield it almost always shield pokes and it's not as if she's short on high shield damaging attacks that she can use with relative safety besides.

Already have. Again. You can shield against jumbo hoop. You know Shields are still shiftable right?

All of your suppositions lie with the idea that for some reason WFT needs to use it raw like Monkey Flip or Spin Dash. Just because she can doesn't mean it's the best option. It's much more optimal OoS or as a combo extender/ edge guard.

Vertical growth is actually fine. Not as much as default, but enough that the magnifying glass with her jump isn't a stretch. It's also not uncommon that characters with bad recoveries have been considered top tier. Also since when do recoveries need to be safe for a character to be considered one of the best? Rosalina has no hitbox at all but no one doubts her, and Diddy gets gimped by taps on his recovery.

No my qualm lies in that any idea that jumbo hoop is going to rocket her to top 10 is by itself unrealistic because for its strengths it isn't *strong enough*.

*She controls very little in close-range with her normals. This is fine as the space she does control there comes out quick, hits hard, and has good damage. Luckily she also has a plethora of specials that control the space her normals do not, which given customs is exponentially increased.

She controls very little in close-range Period.

 

[⑨ball]

what a coincidence the last few post were just speaking of that.

Also just paying attention to the back and forth of you 2 it just seemed like people were arguing over an agreement.
wft gets better with customs but no one is going to delusion themselves with her being top 10 until some physical evidence starts to pour in and not just theory craft.

We really weren't agreeing. His first post was downplaying some very strong tools she gets and afterwards it was more like I gave evidence for my belief and he ran away with a straw man. It'd be like if you said Samus is competitively viable and I tried to tell you how punishable and overrated charge shot was.

I also stated multiple times that I get it. You can't share a belief with someone without the same amount of knowledge as them. I wasn't trying to convince him or anyone else. I just stated my opinion. If people don't agree with each other on an idea that's ok. However, if you're going to disagree with someone based on misinformation, it's only courteous that you correct them in harmonious community, savvy?

Air dodging is only done if you have a slow option against WFT, generally a character outranges her and will, DI and attack back.

This is arbitrary, false, and could be said about literally any character attempting to deal with pressure. You also completely ignored the point where I stated there's no reason to use it raw as it works fine as in combination with her combo tree.

Except characters being 'top' isn't in a vaccuum it's in relation to other characters.

No one said that it was, but Diddy Kong having a good fair does not make Sheik's fair any better or worse.
The same goes for WFT and every other character.

Already have. Again. You can shield against jumbo hoop. You know Shields are still shiftable right?

You know that she can boost shield damage with her downB that's equivalent to being in shield, right? You know that she's does good shield damage besides with all of her other tools, right? You know that at high levels of play(which is how tier lists should be thought of) both players are aware of this fact, right? That it's more likely for both players to understand the amount of pre-shield damage necessary to deal with any shield shifting, right? That regardless of options against it, it doesn't change how powerful an option is, right?

No my qualm lies in that any idea that jumbo hoop is going to rocket her to top 10 is by itself unrealistic because for its strengths it isn't *strong enough*.

And I never said that once. This is what's known as a straw man.
@ Road Death Wheel this is what I was talking about.

She controls very little in close-range Period.

The character with full stage traveling projectiles only controls a small amount of space in close range.

I think we're done here.

 

[Psyant]

The point is that his combo potential falls off rapidly, his kill moves are very hard to land, and he has trouble murdering you off juggles. And no, Bair is not a reliable kill move by any stretch of the imagination. And yes, his range is not that great - he throws his whole hurtbox into it, leaving him vulnerable. Compare to that someone like ZSS, and you'll see a huge difference.

Pika has reliable combos even on Mario (who's hardly the easiest to combo) from 0% to past 100%. Quick Attack's second zip combos into aerials reliably from about 75%-110% (would be flat out broken if Pikachu had a killing aerial to combo into from it) and thunder allows followups that no other character can manage at insanely high %s too (starting with Usmash > Thunder at 60-70%), though depending on bad/no DI. But you can still potentially get dthrow > jump > thunder cloud spike at 170%.

I may be ignorant but I doubt there's a character that can combo at higher percents than Pikachu, though his combos may do less damage than some other characters. But his combo potential, while it does weaken, never really drops off entirely if you know all his followups, though his high % combos are of course reliant on bad DI. Though I think you can chase DI after dthrow and land thunder, at least to some degree.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

what a coincidence the last few post were just speaking of that.

Also just paying attention to the back and forth of you 2 it just seemed like people were arguing over an agreement.
wft gets better with customs but no one is going to delusion themselves with her being top 10 until some physical evidence starts to pour in and not just theory craft.

People can discuss the minor things.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

People can discuss the minor things.

i guess it just did not seem like what i would call a discussion.
just dismissals of each others argument really.

but anyway this is geting off topic. Xd

 

[HeavyLobster]

Mobility and Combos are only part of what is actually dictating this meta: Control.

Diddy is top tier because he has the ability to control every MU. Through bananas, command grabs, and U-air, players are often forced to play at Diddy's pace. Same goes for Sonic, Rosalina, and Sheik.

Mobility is only a factor because it gives you the ability to chase down your opponent, unlike if you were, say, Ganondorf. Ganondorf has to make (hard) reads and make you fear using that mobility against him, because you don't want to get hit. Rosalina, who is definitely not a combo character, demands control just from the fact it's so difficult to hit her in the first place.

Mobility is a huge part of Control, if not the largest. Sonic is the character who is best at controlling the pace of the match because it's nearly impossible to track him down. Even if he has to approach in the end ultimately you have to play his game. Diddy is of course very good at controlling the pace of a match but not as good as Sheik, who is much harder to outcamp because of needles and mobility. Control is honestly less important in this game than in previous ones because of rage and larger discrepancies in reward between characters. Diddy is ahead of Sheik not because he's better in terms of control but because he's almost as good while being well ahead in terms of reward.

 

[Timbers]

Mobility is a huge part of Control, if not the largest. Sonic is the character who is best at controlling the pace of the match because it's nearly impossible to track him down. Even if he has to approach in the end ultimately you have to play his game. Diddy is of course very good at controlling the pace of a match but not as good as Sheik, who is much harder to outcamp because of needles and mobility.

idk. Sonic does well in controlling the pacing of a match, but mostly because spindash has some bat**** specs and everyone is forced to respect it. Sheik controls a match as well as she does because like all of her options are so safe.

I agree with you as mobility opens up a lot of options that forces slower characters to play at your pace. I guess I'm just adding onto this or whatever.

 

[CaveLemon]

Not enough D3 talk.

I really think he's a ton more viable than he's made out to be in most tier lists.
Super solid kill potential, can last at high percents, strong aerial game, and he doesn't have any downright terrible moves.

I guess he's easy to combo, but besides that, am I missing the reason he's places so low on most tier lists?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Not enough D3 talk.

I really think he's a ton more viable than he's made out to be in most tier lists.
Super solid kill potential, can last at high percents, strong aerial game, and he doesn't have any downright terrible moves.

I guess he's easy to combo, but besides that, am I missing the reason he's places so low on most tier lists?

almost all of d3's specials are poop expecially gordo's