Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Unless he misses completely (like, you're behind him when he uses it), it isn't THAT punishable,
I don't think it's that slow. It's also worth noting that it's noticeably faster at point blank, where Pac-Man can touch them with his hand instead of waiting for the tractor beam. Not sure of the exact frame data, and it's still slower than Mario's grab at least, but distance to the target is definitely a factor.
I would honestly wager from personal experience that Doc does better against Yoshi than Mario, to be frank. He doesn't really care about the Eggs in neutral because he's not a huge target and he has a reflector. He still forces Yoshi to play respectfully with basically the same moves and can still do aerial -> Jab pretty safely on Yoshi's shield, but in Doc's case he's one of few characters that actually trades very well with Yoshi. Plus, I believe this is a matchup where Doc's noticeably superior Up-B out of shield is actually a big deal, because it makes it a lot riskier for Yoshi to attempt making reads on Doc's defenses. Mario for instance probably doesn't have very good punishes for something like Yoshi's DA, Jab, and B-air when his Up-B isn't as reliable, however Doc's Up-B is a fantastic punish against those moves.We definitely dont beat Fox that bad lol. Imo its an even match up, but I could see +1 for us. No idea where Fox players are getting the idea that we body them, Fox is still faster, has safe poke options on our shield, has damaging combos, and has more kill power. We have the better neutral slightly, which is what COULD give us the advantage, but its not an awful match up for Fox by any means, Fox players need to learn to space bairs better so they dont get eaten by our nair OoS.
And Yoshi's MUs imo (its honestly not too much different than yours, only a lot more evens lol):
-2:
-1:
0:
+1:
+2:
Noo! Two every six hours, dammit man!
We have quite a few tournaments that happen very often in Florida. We're a pretty large state and are divided into lots of diferent areas that have their own players and metas to an extent. I'll list some of the players that are doing well at some of our larger tournaments across our regions.
I lurk in this thread a lot, and never knew that Smooth Criminal lived in Florida. Interesting :V
Doc's recovery is okay if he either has enough room to Tornado stall, or if he saves double jump Tornado similar to Luigi. Sure if you catch him after all that, he's a goner, but it isn't drastically different in Mario's case minus he'll try to use Cape if he has enough height to do so.
>_> There were a lot of heads at that tourney I went to than I realized. Holy crap.
But where's the reasoning?
If Pac Man has the lead, he punishes approach attempts with aerials and up B's when you're grounded and mixes that up with charging whatever fruit is best for the situation. Keys are usually good, but they're not always the best. 15% is nothing to laugh at though.
If you leave Pac-Man alone and try to camp him out, you subject yourself to letting him charge whatever fruit he wants to aid his comeback. He can place hydrants and trampolines to disrupt your attempts at running away, and can mix in an unblockable any time he wants, or whatever fruit he is holding. You can't shield forever, and he's got an option that gets around it anyway. If he wants to and you sit back, he can get a Key in his hand and force you to deal with instantly launched hydrants from Zdrops and Key OOS along with his up B.
If Pac Man doesn't use Hydrant's water spurts to disrupt your camping, he can use Melons and Galaxians to cover his approach. He's fast enough to follow them and up B you for shielding them, or attempt to hit you for jumping and dodging. He can also launch his hydrant with Fair, jab, and U tilt (I don't use this launch that often) to delay its bouncing towards you, forcing you to deal with him/fruit and it at the same time.
If you are on the ground, you can't block or spotdodge Pac Man's up B because the trampoline will pull you out of any defensive maneuver, including tech rolls, get up attacks, and other invincible stuff. The only way to avoid it is to roll before he does it or short hop airdodge, but then good luck punishing Pac Man if you do.
I think I'd put BF and Trampoline above hydrant in terms of strength, but I think you're underestimating it. When you play Pac Man for while, you start remembering how each different move will launch your hydrant, so that even if you place it when an opponent can immediately launch it, you can airdodge through its path or land where it bounces over Pac-Man's head.
You would never stay in Pac-Man's face if he had a normal grab. Honestly, I can't put into words how nice things would be if Pac Man had Mario's grab. It was clearly intentional by the dev team to hold him back.
All of this is pretty spot on. I'll definitely be making a Pac Man tips & tricks video, to add to my series (SAMUS and PIT/DARK PIT are my previous episodes). He's got so much he can do in any situation, and even his grab works well with his moveset - he's not as bad at grabbing as it often made out, because people tend to rely on spot-dodges to deal with a lot of his other tools (And spot dodging can generally be seen as better than shield a lot of the time).
This is true for your opponent and why I think Pacman has done well in the early stages of the game. Who knows the Pacman matchup? Not many. A set hydrant is a poor man's Duck Hunt default can. Bonus fruit is somewhat complicated and not a lot of people know the order or the trajectory of each one. From what I see, it looks like his traps have consistent holes (see some pages back).
Conda
- it's not just the grab startup (he beats Greninja here in standing grab), but it's the end lag. A whiffed grab probably gets punished harder than a whiffed fsmash. All about that risk/reward.
I don't have enough experience or knowledge of Olimar to know much about how he plays or how nerfed his grab is (it still seems good to me, but I don't have anything to back that up). However, I do agree that his gameplan now is being annoying. It makes it more true to the source material and I'm a fan. I played some DK vs Olimar and it felt like Pikmin 3. Balance aside, I think Olimar's design is amazing. (A small note: I think it would've been a really cool gimmick if Olimar could continue to shield while using standing grab like how DH can shoot the can while shielding. Probably impossible to balance, but it would make the character super cool.)
Not a Pac-Man player myself, but I think what people are saying isn't that his throws are good, nor that he gets good rewards from them, but that a normal grab would make it much more difficult to pressure his shield, which is currently one of his main problems.
Its the fact that z drop is really good if you have an item that you need a normal grab.
I've noticed this with a lot of characters. Forward and back throws are for spacing and sometimes killing, down throw is for combos, but except for like Marth whose up throw is supposed to kill at higher percents what is up throw even for?
For Falco, at low percents, it combos into Nair, Uair, and maybe Bair and Fair. Later on, it can kill like his B-throw, but they're wonky. Link and I think Sonic can kill with U-throw. I might be wrong on this, but I believe Zelda can combo Uair out of U-throw.
It feels like a last resort for "get opponent above me" (base goal to set up a juggle trap) for most characters; generally not too useful, but if they're fast enough on recovery then they can be useful against opponents with poor landing options.
Dthrow>footstool>jab lock/usmash is the way to go in doubles.
Don't forget ROB's up-throw (which everyone keeps mistaking for a down-throw, even after they see its actual down-throw earlier in a match).
can u give me some number has to how blaster is so terrible? i use it all the time still his most usefull move.
I'd think depending on your character the positioning uthrow gives you is probably the best.
I blame it on muscle memory like when I use Mega Man, I forget that his Nair isn't like everyone else's regular attack. Falco's Blaster is more of an interrupter and poker rather than a zoning and damage tool now.
The thing is the opponent is putting themselves at risk while they're navigating through all of this stuff. Pac-Man should be watching and waiting to punish the opponent for navigating through his stuff (or not if he prefers to charge something I guess, depends on the situation). Getting past trampoline means you are going airborne in some way or another. Same for the hydrant unless you are Sonic, who I have found can run right past it for some reason. Pac-Man will always have a shot to punish you for crossing it. He awaits your landing, aerials you, throws something, anything really.
They have yet to launch it on me.
OK, but if you both wait, Pac-Man gets to charge to what he wants. I don't think that's something most characters want to let him do.
Pac-Man's Key launches it fresh. If she smashes it, Pac-Man most definitely has a chance to grab her, or throw something right after she hits it. I see your point though. Smart people won't give Pac-Man smash lag to punish. The longer you wait though, the more time he has to charge or set up another trampoline.
You're correct about Pac-Man having to worry about his own trampoline, but I still think it messes up the opponent more than it hurts him. It nullifies any grounded approach they could try to make, and gives Pac-Man the assurance that the opponent will have to jump to get to him.
The game is still early, and the only big name that has used Pac-Man is abadango. He got 9th I believe at Umebura 11. He did not go solo Pac-Man, but I believe he beat both Nietono and Brood with him. Not sure who else. No one in the U.S. has really touched him.
I don't see it. As for the holes, again, I admit that you should get past Pac-Man's stuff at some point. I don't see anyone except Sonic possibly catching Pac-Man easily and/or safely when he reacts to you trying to get in though.
You might be right on PP being 12 frames, but is that for the pellet itself? That's all that needs to get out for the projectile tanking function. 12f seems awfully slow.
OK, I'm always open to new directions. Personally I see his highest potential as a camping character, but he is versatile.
