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Character Competitive Impressions

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Chuva

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Regarding Marth: I don't think the improved hitbox justifies removing the auto-cancel from SH NAir: Keeping the auto-cancel frames would add some much needed flow to his aerial game without making him too oppressive, considering how some of his other aerials also got gutted. Shield Breaker feels legit right now but it's probably because people are still using shields like it's Brawl shield. Utilt is useless most of the time except as a subpar anti-air. DB has it's inconsistencies...

I used to think Marth had a lot of potential early in the game, but as the meta-game evolved I've lost some expectations.
 

BSP

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Oh fun. I get to talk more Pacman. Essentially, @ BSP BSP , it seems like you expect your opponent to wait while you setup... which doesn't happen. It's like waiting on Snake to set up C4/mines in Brawl. Makes no sense.
Charge up bit by bit while they're getting to you, or attempt to punish their getting to you.

If the hydrant is launched or just jumped over, you can't set down another one until it disappears.
OK. I don't see this as a huge deal. Although Pac-Man doesn't really have grab as a consistent option, his CQC isn't awful and he's still got up B, albeit with poor range. He will struggle when you get in, yes, but he's not exactly free either. Remember, he can cancel standing BF charging with a roll, back to standing pretty quickly, spotdodge, or any other special (said roll 3 times lol)

If your opponent is at mid-range, setting down a hydrant will leave you open to be punished.
Character dependent, and unless the opponent is already running at Pac-Man, I don't see it happening too often.

It's equivalent to throwing out a whiffed utilt, so it's not terrible, but it will immediately put you on the defensive. If you're standing on it and your opponent can launch the hydrant quickly, it's unblockable since you're standing and can't dodge in time. Trampoline I'll get to later.
I agree standing right on the hydrant isn't the best spot, but I think "defensive" is a stretch. I mean, Pac-Man doesn't want to sit there and shield because if it gets launched, he gets hit. Other than that, all of his options are still available outside of placing a hydrant.

The no flow is not dependent on what he is doing while the opponent is trying to maneuver. The flow is that even if you hit someone with a hydrant, you still have to wait to setup again and by that time your opponent has reset. This is unlike Duck Hunt's can, which can be used right after it explodes, and can be setup with a pigeon or gunman at the same time to cover throwing out another can. You can even make the can explode/fall off the stage so you can use it again once your opponent has gotten past it. Same with Bowser Jr.'s Mechakoopa.
OK. If I haven't said it already, I agree with you on Pac-Man's camping game not keeping anyone out forever. It does take time and has risks associated.

Fox can't launch it with lasers (95% sure. Just tested it) but Sheik definitely can with needles. As can Mega Man with pellets. The reason why they have yet to launch it on you is because it requires the hydrant HP to be low enough. They're not going to "wait," they're just going to start attacking you.
OK, thank you. My bad on Sheik, but Fox's lasers don't launch it. I knew Mega Man's pellets could launch it and apologize if I claimed otherwise for some reason.

If the opponent immediately starts attacking my hydrant with projectiles, that's giving me time to charge, which is what I want. Piercing projectiles are still a problem, but other than that, I'm fine with them launching them quickly. Yes, I have to avoid my hydrant, and yes, my opponent is going to get in but I got what I wanted. Melon doesn't take that long to charge and is a good option against all three of the characters mentioned. If Pac-Man has a key already, he can punish them for trying to launch it with projectiles.

If you're hiding right behind the hydrant, well, okay. Maybe they'll have to wait. However, it's still neutral. You have to jump over it to cross or deal with the water blasts just like your opponent. Otherwise, you've given up stage control. If you're charging bonus fruit, how are you doing that without giving up stage control or control of the hydrant? On the ground, you'll be pushed back to the ledge and now the hydrant firmly is in the control of your opponent. If you're charging bonus fruit in the air, you're nowhere close to being able to hit the hydrant in addition to being in no position to punish crossing over the hydrant, so you lose possession of the hydrant.
I'm not going to put the hydrant down, go to the other side of it, and then attempt to approach my opponent. I wouldn't have placed it in the first place, unless I am trying to quickly launch it myself, which as you have said, does have risks.

If I put the hydrant down and begin to charge BF from the start, I can make it to orange before I need to SH AD the first water blast if I don't want to be pushed, and make it to melon before I need to do the same with the second. If my opponent crosses over during this, I stop charging and engage them.

I wouldn't be charging BF in the air unless I was already in a disadvantageous position. What you said about that is correct, except if Pac-Man has an Apple to throw down.

The hydrant's water blasts can also save someone from eating a punish after hitting it. Since they'll drift backwards after launching, you're in no position to attack and you still have to deal with this hydrant coming at you. Something I learned while doing a bit of homework on the character to respond.
OK, but like we've said, if you're familiar with how each move launches the hydrant, Pac-Man shouldn't get hit. If I see that they're about to launch it right before a water blast starts pushing them, that's more time to charge for me.

Stronger characters can use it better because they can launch the attack with a safer move than you can. Ganondorf can probably launch it with ftilt which is by no means as laggy as your fsmash. You may not be getting hit by your own hydrant, but you still have to deal with it.
Ganon can launch it with Ftilt, and unless there's water in the way, I can run up and grab him after it, or throw an orange at him. I don't really have to deal with the hydrant if I'm standing in the launch blind spot, and even if I do, shield or spotdodge, problem solved.

If it's flying straight at you because the opponent knows the angle his hit will launch it at (and you're in its trajectory) you have to deal with it. Launched hydrants aren't Din's Fire. They're still large projectiles. If you're keeping it in situations where it won't get launched by your opponent, what good is it doing? What's its job? Shoot water while you charge bonus fruit? That's not the utility I think you are trying to get at when thinking of "stage control."
OK, maybe I should say "mobility hampering options". I don't see my hydrant getting launched at me as a big deal if I'm aware of this fact and prepare accordingly.

The same is even more true for your opponents and your opponents have a better grab than you. You may be able to charge bonus fruit on the other side, but while you're doing that you lose your utilt option which is a good anti-air and the opponent can bait punishes and eliminate any end lag by jumping on your trampoline, something you can't do. If you're not next to the trampoline waiting to punish an aerial approach, then the trampoline doesn't do anything for you much like the hydrant if you're far away. Once the trampoline goes away... then what? Put up another one and retreat?
Again, the BF standing cancel is quick enough to react to jump-ins and whatnot.

You're right about the opponent being able to use the trampoline to negate ending lag. I'm still safe though, and they're getting tossed higher, potentially leading to getting Uair'd or Bair'd.

If I'm not next to the trampoline to punish an aerial approach, it is still slowing most opponents down (even if slightly) from rushing me down if I'm too far away to punish and am charging. It is also still gives me the knowledge that I don't have to worry about any dash ins until they've jumped over my trampoline.

So, use trampolines aggressively. I can get on board with that. You know what that's not doing? Controlling the stage and setting up traps. If you hit with up-B, then you've set up the trampoline. I'm all for that. However, if you're throwing up a trampoline in neutral... that makes no sense.
Disagree. The trampoline sitting on the ground completely neutralizes any grounded approach both characters can make. I don't have to worry about immediate walk up tilts, dash attacks, dash grabs, Falcon kicks, spin charges, etc.

And your anti-little mac strategy is to put them closer to the edge... also known as giving up position. So you've given up stage control and he waits it out, now he has the entire stage at his back and you don't have anywhere to go.
Give up position yes, but can mac get to Pac-Man safely? If he sits there, you charge whatever fruit you want, and before your trampoline expires, you hydrant -> bair it, and jab it towards Mac, covering you to set up another one, or grab, or something. If he keeps standing right there, he can't react to a key that quickly either once you get it and are holding it.

I've considered what Pac is doing while the opponent is trying to weave their way in. But how are you setting up these traps in the first place? You're not setting up a trampoline for free, and setting down a hydrant doesn't give you much more of an advantage than it does your opponent. If you're charging BF, you're not close to the hydrant or in a position to punish any approach.
Whenever you land a hit, a grab, or at the start of the match, if Pac-Man so chooses. You can get a trampoline for free if necessary once the match starts. He shouldn't go to all out camping at the start vs. every character though.

Pages back I talked about some of the hydrant traps. Like bouncing a hydrant off the edge. You should be able to get through all traps sometimes (traps give you a favorable situation where you have a good chance of landing a hit), but if there's one option that consistently beats your trap, that trap isn't worth anything. It's like placing a cage over a mouse only for it to have an escape hole.
The trap I think you're referring to is a bouncing hydrant with a trampoline under it on the edge. The only option that "beats" this is waiting, but then you're on the ledge with no invincibility. If Pac-Man throws a bell, orange, or jumps over the trap after you, what are you going to do? If you let go, you've got no invincibility on regrab and you're getting hit.

I'm going off of the frame data in the academy. Projectile created on frame 12. I wouldn't make up numbers without a disclaimer of it being off my memory unless it's something I know well like MM utilt f6 or dtilt f5 or DK/MM BAir f4. 12 frames isn't awful (I think MM's skull barrier reflector is 11 or so) but it's not great.
OK.

Trampoline definitely limits ground games. Hydrant creates a neutral situation. Your argument hinges on one thing, giving you time to charge bonus fruit. If I'm anyone who has a charge attack (brawler, gunner, samus, robin, DK, Lucario, and Shulk to a degree with his arts) I'll gladly charge mine while you charge yours. Because...
Remember when I mentioned that 10% I wouldn't fully camp against? Samus, Robin, Gunner (if he/she has a charge shot), and Lucario at high damage are in that 10%. It is not always in Pac-Man's best interest to run, yes. I think I'd take my chances with DK and Brawler, but if that doesn't work out, Pac-Man can go in after them too.

Bonus fruit isn't even that good. -gasp-

It's not spammable, so it can't exert much pressure, and the reward on hit isn't high enough to base your entire game on charging it up unlike Samus' Charge Shot. Especially when you have characters with reflectors. Of the charge attacks, I don't find Bonus Fruit to be as intimidating as any of the other charge attacks.
Yes, reflectors change the game a bit. I'm starting to find Palutena pretty frustrating for Pac-Man. BF isn't spammable, your right, but you're brave if you've got no worries about keys.


The important thing here is that none of these options actually help you control/dominate positional play, also known as stage control. At best, they set neutral situations where you can charge your bonus fruit and then attack or keep retreating to stall. Bowser Jr. and Duck Hunt are far better stage control characters than Pacman. I really appreciate the discussion, but I still don't think his stage control is even remotely good.
OK, do you want to call them "mobility limiting options" then?
 
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Smog Frog

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i think an interesting thing to note is that the different omega stages retain their main platform structure, so lylat still has those ******** lips and omega halberd is just silly with sonic spring gimps
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Since Shaya brought up aerial db1. At later percentages it actually combos into fair nair and uair. So around 130 I want to say. It's not the greatest thing but it's something.

Also I don't see how Rosalina and Luna aren't the most unique characters and she's also a super hard counter to pacman. I was watching kool-aid vs dabuz and holy **** man. Pacman whole game gets destroyed by Rosalina.
 
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Nu~

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Since Shaya brought up aerial db1. At later percentages it actually combos into fair nair and uair. So around 130 I want to say. It's not the greatest thing but it's something.

Also I don't see how Rosalina and Luna aren't the most unique characters and she's also a super hard counter to pacman. I was watching kool-aid vs dabuz and holy **** man. Pacman whole game gets destroyed by Rosalina.
While koolaid is definitely not the best pacman out there, she is our worst matchup.
 

GalaxyWaffles

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One thing regarding :4wiifit: that a lot of people tend to forget is that DB doesn't only increase damage but also knockback. The knockback increase is REAL. That's basically the benefit to doing a DB IMO (aside from the % recovery).
 

Locke 06

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Not gonna address everything, but a few things:
- Setting up a hydrant or trampoline at mid-range/neutral is bad. If whiffing a utilt isn't a cue for your opponent to attack, I'm not sure what kind of an opening your opponent wants. That's better than what they'll get against most other characters.
- If you're in the blindspot of the hydrant, you're not really close enough to punish someone crossing or hitting the hydrant. Also, the blindspot changes depending on what they're using to launch it with.
- The key is nice, but it's not a game changing move. I think of it like a better Thoron. Which, you'll notice, Robin's will opt for Elthunder instead of Thoron at low %'s. It's just good, not great. It's not a trump card that can overcome the strengths of other characters.

The trap I think you're referring to is a bouncing hydrant with a trampoline under it on the edge. The only option that "beats" this is waiting, but then you're on the ledge with no invincibility. If Pac-Man throws a bell, orange, or jumps over the trap after you, what are you going to do? If you let go, you've got no invincibility on regrab and you're getting hit.
Bell is probably legit. Loses to ledge drop>air dodge>regrab, but what you follow with is still the question. Jumping over the trap to hit me on the edge with no invincibility will net you a ledge drop uair/up-B. Being right above your opponent isn't the best thing, especially with your mediocre DAir and many characters' great UAirs. By the time you've thrown a bell and committed to jumping and attacking me, I wouldn't be surprised if the hydrant had disappeared and I was free to roll onto the stage. Would need testing, but it's these kind of holes in traps that. You can't cover all of the options even if you predict them, which is what I mean by having holes. Marth's dtilt trap is the easiest to explain (and I hope I get this right) as he can cover anything you do once his sword hits your shield. Jump loses to FAir, Shield drop/dash grab loses to jab/dtilt, spot dodge puts you in the same position, cross up roll loses to DB, and roll away loses to dash grab/DB/attack. That's a trap without holes. It's possible Pacman has traps without holes and they're just not developed yet. However, at this point his traps seem flawed based on simple theory. Add in the fact that his traps take time to set up and they're just not that effective.

The point that I'm trying to make is that you can't camp out/play keep away with your opponents. A lot of Pacman discussion has been how good he is at keeping his opponent away, forcing approaches, and playing the stalling game. He can only do that in order to get bonus fruit, and he gives up stage control as a result. Which is why the following statement:
I think he is a legitimate time out threat to 90% of the cast, and against the other 10%, he can hold his own because the characters that outcamp him don't have the best CQC games to demolish him with.
makes no sense. I'm fine saying he limits mobility and can slow the game down a bit, but it's still not a strong enough plan to be a keep away threat to most characters because it doesn't flow. You need to build off your advantage to set up shop while other zoner/keep-away characters can play that game at a neutral situation. How he's competitively a good character is something I have yet to see or be convinced of.
 

Smog Frog

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i think an interesting thing to note is that the different omega stages retain their main platform structure, so lylat still has those ******** lips and omega halberd is just silly with sonic spring gimps
 

Antonykun

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Heyo I was thinking lately for some buffs for Swordfighter
F-tilt less lag
U-tilt larger hitbox
D-tilt lauches to 80 degree (allows for U-air mixups)
Up Smash Increase hitboxes around Swordfighter
N-air- 5% to 7% (Nair is decent for spacing but lacks reward for using it.)
F-air- Autocancel frames/Earlier startup (this move is awful and I doubt this will help)

What do you guys think?
 

Remzi

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Question to some of you theory crafters. If you were to design a character that had a clear advantage against Diddy Kong, but was still a lower tiered character than him, what kind of traits would he need to have?

And you can't say "a special move that OHKOs Diddy only" :p
 

Nu~

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Question to some of you theory crafters. If you were to design a character that had a clear advantage against Diddy Kong, but was still a lower tiered character than him, what kind of traits would he need to have?

And you can't say "a special move that OHKOs Diddy only" :p
A counter that counters only grabs. And traction akin to a superfluid so when he slips on a banana, he slides way too far to punish. Also a projectile that he can drop down in the air on frame 1 to deter uair follow ups
 
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Nidtendofreak

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Question to some of you theory crafters. If you were to design a character that had a clear advantage against Diddy Kong, but was still a lower tiered character than him, what kind of traits would he need to have?

And you can't say "a special move that OHKOs Diddy only" :p
Hrm...

Great aerial mobility, Frame 1 Jab with good range/hitbox (rest of the jab combo can be meh as long as it still links into itself, damage can be crap as well), very quick Nair with decent disjointed range and good lingering hitbox along with good auto-canceling frames (doesn't have to have good damage or knockback, just be solely for interrupting like the Jab), small frame. Laser projectile with a height just slightly higher than the bananas.

In theory, the Jab and Nair would take care of Banana, Peanuts, and Monkey Hump. Just throw a very quick hitbox in front to break/interrupt anything in front. Small frame + mobility is to avoid Uair as much as possible. Laser is to not let Diddy just sit behind a banana and wait.

After that really, damage and knockback don't need to be amazing, just not abysmal. Range can be average or even slightly below average. I think the key to beating Diddy is to stop his key tools (Monkey Hump, Grab, Peanuts, Bananas, Uair). If you have ways of shutting all of those down without risking yourself very much, you should be winning.
 

Asdioh

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Question to some of you theory crafters. If you were to design a character that had a clear advantage against Diddy Kong, but was still a lower tiered character than him, what kind of traits would he need to have?

And you can't say "a special move that OHKOs Diddy only" :p
I'm onto you. You're helping them develop Mewtwo, aren't you?
 

Nu~

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the key to beating Diddy is to stop his key tools (Monkey Hump, Grab, Peanuts, Bananas, Uair). If you have ways of shutting all of those down without risking yourself very much, you should be winning.
Funny...Pac-Man has all of these traits


Monkey hump- any fruit stops it
Grab- trampoline
Peanuts- jab, any fruit, or side B
Bananas- every fruit outprioritizes it
Uair- hydrant

So does Mega man and I think sheik may also...
We have found our lords and saviors :crazy:
 
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Trifroze

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A character with a frame 1 burst mechanic that you can use once every 20-30 seconds who also can't be tripped. Otherwise make him/her relatively average.

In other words Mewtwo with psychic bursts who is constantly floating a few inches from the ground.
 
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AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Question to some of you theory crafters. If you were to design a character that had a clear advantage against Diddy Kong, but was still a lower tiered character than him, what kind of traits would he need to have?

And you can't say "a special move that OHKOs Diddy only" :p
Hmmm it'd be tough keeping hin lower tiered. But I'll say a character like brawl narth or mk. Disjoints good aerial mobility good off stage game vs him or ice climbers.
 

Antonykun

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Trampoline. It defeats every defensive option. It ignores spot dodge, sheild, roll, and you get hit if you try to jump. You have to anticipate it and roll before it comes out to avoid the hit, but it comes out on frame 1 so...
So Pac-man has the oddest command grab in the game? Good to know.
 

Luco

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Even better. Leave it on the stage and charge your fruit. Then laugh as you punish your opponents for jumping on it or over it with an Usmash, Utilt, or aerial.
Unless they happen to camp better than you (*coughcoughsheikandprobablyfox/falcointhisparticularmatchup+otherscoughcough*). In which case :(
 

Nu~

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Unless they happen to camp better than you (*coughcoughsheikandprobablyfox/falcointhisparticularmatchup+otherscoughcough*). In which case :(
No worry my friend. All of the aforementioned character's projectiles are eaten by fruit (and in fox's case, the hydrant) and every one else with a better camping game is invalidated by the side B. The pellet absorbs every projectile besides rapid fire, and then I can pick it up and heal for 2%. Charge shot? Absorb, Heal 2%. Lloid rocket? Blow up, heal 2%. Eggs? Crack, heal 2%.
 
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PK Gaming

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Can we talk about how bad Marth is in smash 4? I see people place him in high tier or the higher ranks of mid tier and I'm profoundly confused. That character has like nothing going for him except a minimal chance of rigging rage tipper kills at fraudulent percent.

:059:
It's a shame that all of the Fire Emblem characters (save Ike) are absolutely terrible in this game.

Fire Emblem tier is the new Hyrule tier.

Huge shame
 
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Kofu

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No worry my friend. All of the aforementioned character's projectiles are eaten by fruit (and in fox's case, the hydrant) and every one else with a better camping game is invalidated by the side B. The pellet absorbs every projectile besides rapid fire, and then I can pick it up and heal for 2%. Charge shot? Absorb, Heal 2%. Lloid rocket? Blow up, heal 2%. Eggs? Crack, heal 2%.
I had an instance the other day where I had Reflect Barrier out and the opposing Pac-Man tried to use Power Pellet against it several times. Would that leave multiple pellets on the ground to use?
 

Xuan Wu

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It's a shame that all of the Fire Emblem characters (save Ike) are absolutely terrible in this game.

Fire Emblem tier is the new Hyrule tier.

Huge shame
It saddens me as well. Although Marth is definitely lackluster this time around, I think the core design of both his moveset and attributes would naturally prevent him from falling that low. Then again, one could argue that Falcon's design did not save him during the transition to SSBB. Are those not what kept Marth afloat in both the SSBM and SSBB meta, aside from his changing frame data? Personally, despite his nerfs being numerous, I still think Marth is a force to be reckoned with. He is not like Zelda, whose design is fundamentally flawed for competitive play.

And, yes. Who would have thought Ike, of the four FE characters, would make it the farthest in the SSB4 meta, considering his fundamentals, as well as Marth's history. To be honest, I would be very surprised if this happens, but I am at least glad Ike can actually keep up with Marth now. That match-up used to be harsh on him. Last I heard of Robin, I thought he was performing rather well in a competitive environment; did something happen recently that changed the community's perception of him?

^-^
 
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Raziek

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Robin's solidly mid-tier. Weaknesses to some of the prevalent top tiers, but saying Robin is bad is grossly underestimating the character.
 

Nu~

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I had an instance the other day where I had Reflect Barrier out and the opposing Pac-Man tried to use Power Pellet against it several times. Would that leave multiple pellets on the ground to use?
Hmm. I've never had my side B reflected. I know that the pellet has to be eaten or disappear before you can use side B again, but I don't know how the pellet would behave when it hits a reflector.
 
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Ffamran

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I thought that Robin was a good contender for mid tier
And I thought Marth would be somewhere in the mid tier as well.

Also, doesn't Nakat or someone Nairo like using Robin and thinks Robin's good?

It saddens me as well. Although Marth is definitely lackluster this time around, I think the core design of both his moveset and attributes would naturally prevent him from falling that low. Then again, one could argue that Falcon's design did not save him during the transition to SSBB. Are those not what kept Marth afloat in both the SSBM and SSBB meta, aside from his changing frame data? Personally, despite his nerfs being numerous, I still think Marth is a force to be reckoned with.

And, yes. Who would have thought Ike, of the four FE characters, would make it the farthest in the SSB4 meta, considering his fundamentals, as well as Marth's history. To be honest, I would be very surprised if this happens, but I am at least glad Ike can actually keep up with Marth now. That match-up used to be harsh on him. Last I heard of Robin, I thought he was performing rather well in a competitive environment; did something happen recently that changed the community's perception of him?

^-^
Is Ike essentially the Snake of this game? Heavyweight who's really good? It's either him and/or Bowser who might end up near the top tier or upper mid tier. Ike's power, range, and coverage just makes him really good. Maybe those steroids that workout really did pay off. Marth pretty much stayed the same while Ike got ripped. That's what you get for slacking off. :p

I just wished there were more Ike's being used in tournaments and such. Well, considering Apex has like hundreds of participants, I'd be surprised if anyone is not being used. Seriously, if there's like 500 people, everyone except Mewtwo for obvious reasons will probably be used. But knowing people, I bet like only 20 out of the current 52 will be used.

Edit: It's Nairo and not Nakat as @ H HeoandReo corrected me.
 
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Quickhero

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Marth is a solid mid-tier guys, I admit he got more slightly nerfs than needed and that less aerial lag and more movement speed would be greatly appreciated, but he still has methods of getting against anybody and can easily still harass and kill ridiculously early with tippers, and his aerial game is still good if you can space properly.

I swear if I see another person treat Marth like he's garbage and "OMG bottom tier" I'm going to lose it.
 

Thinkaman

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Anyone else get the impression that all the bottom-tier characters in this game are mid-tier?
 

HeoandReo

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And I thought Marth would be somewhere in the mid tier as well.

Also, doesn't Nakat or someone like using Robin and thinks Robin's good?
That's Nairo. I'd personally say that Robin looked great earlier because Nairo is a good player rather than elements of Robin's kit (He could make someone like Dr. Mario or Ganondorf look top tier if he really wanted to - didn't he do that with Zelda early on?) but Robin is definitely a force to be reckoned with. His air game is great and reliably follows up from his spells. Shielding can lead to grab to Levin, getting hit can lead to Levins - or grabs to Levins again. He's really good when he's able to keep the momentum going. He just falters when people play defensively and don't walk into Arcfire every chance they get.

Imo Ike and Robin are upper mid, Marth's maybe lower mid, and Lucina is terrible. So FE's not doing too bad in this game.
 
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Ffamran

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Marth is a solid mid-tier guys, I admit he got more slightly nerfs than needed and that less aerial lag and more movement speed would be greatly appreciated, but he still has methods of getting against anybody and can easily still harass and kill ridiculously early with tippers, and his aerial game is still good if you can space properly.

I swear if I see another person treat Marth like he's garbage and "OMG bottom tier" I'm going to lose it.
Welcome to the life of Falco and Meta Knight players... Falco should change his name to Malcolm or something so we can have a group called the Mid-Tiers, the Middlemen, or something. Just a trio of fighters trying to stand their ground. :p
 

Nidtendofreak

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That's Yoshi you're thinking of. Ike isn't high tier without customs, while Bowser isn't any better than high-mid.
Ike is high tier without customs.

The bottom stretch of high tier. But high tier. Ryo has done his thing a bit already, San got second at a tournament recently, I have an irrelevent-but-existant tournament win myself: Ike gets work done. The patch let him play fairly fast by sticking to certain moves and he still hits like a truck with great range while having a surprising amount of aerial speed.

His only glaring issues really are recovery (slightly improved from Brawl) and getting down when juggled. The reason why more people don't use him is because they only tried him pre-patched and have the mindset that he's still this slow wall like he was in Brawl. I had Sonic mains talking about how fast Ike looked when I was playing. Rather amusing to listen to.
 
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DavemanCozy

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Do people still think Robin is bad? How cute, either they must have bought the game yesterday or have been spending too much time looking at the Japanese tier list.

By the way... what do you fellow smashers think of his position there? It just baffles me that eventscrubs and smash subreddit rank him well, but Japan puts him in D tier below Shulk. Why is that?
 
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