Oh fun. I get to talk more Pacman. Essentially, @
BSP
, it seems like you expect your opponent to wait while you setup... which doesn't happen. It's like waiting on Snake to set up C4/mines in Brawl. Makes no sense.
Charge up bit by bit while they're getting to you, or attempt to punish their getting to you.
If the hydrant is launched or just jumped over, you can't set down another one until it disappears.
OK. I don't see this as a huge deal. Although Pac-Man doesn't really have grab as a consistent option, his CQC isn't awful and he's still got up B, albeit with poor range. He will struggle when you get in, yes, but he's not exactly free either. Remember, he can cancel standing BF charging with a roll, back to standing pretty quickly, spotdodge, or any other special (said roll 3 times lol)
If your opponent is at mid-range, setting down a hydrant will leave you open to be punished.
Character dependent, and unless the opponent is already running at Pac-Man, I don't see it happening too often.
It's equivalent to throwing out a whiffed utilt, so it's not terrible, but it will immediately put you on the defensive. If you're standing on it and your opponent can launch the hydrant quickly, it's unblockable since you're standing and can't dodge in time. Trampoline I'll get to later.
I agree standing right on the hydrant isn't the best spot, but I think "defensive" is a stretch. I mean, Pac-Man doesn't want to sit there and shield because if it gets launched, he gets hit. Other than that, all of his options are still available outside of placing a hydrant.
The no flow is not dependent on what he is doing while the opponent is trying to maneuver. The flow is that even if you hit someone with a hydrant, you still have to wait to setup again and by that time your opponent has reset. This is unlike Duck Hunt's can, which can be used right after it explodes, and can be setup with a pigeon or gunman at the same time to cover throwing out another can. You can even make the can explode/fall off the stage so you can use it again once your opponent has gotten past it. Same with Bowser Jr.'s Mechakoopa.
OK. If I haven't said it already, I agree with you on Pac-Man's camping game not keeping anyone out forever. It does take time and has risks associated.
Fox can't launch it with lasers (95% sure. Just tested it) but Sheik definitely can with needles. As can Mega Man with pellets. The reason why they have yet to launch it on you is because it requires the hydrant HP to be low enough. They're not going to "wait," they're just going to start attacking you.
OK, thank you. My bad on Sheik, but Fox's lasers don't launch it. I knew Mega Man's pellets could launch it and apologize if I claimed otherwise for some reason.
If the opponent immediately starts attacking my hydrant with projectiles, that's giving me time to charge, which is what I want. Piercing projectiles are still a problem, but other than that, I'm fine with them launching them quickly. Yes, I have to avoid my hydrant, and yes, my opponent is going to get in but I got what I wanted. Melon doesn't take that long to charge and is a good option against all three of the characters mentioned. If Pac-Man has a key already, he can punish them for trying to launch it with projectiles.
If you're hiding right behind the hydrant, well, okay. Maybe they'll have to wait. However, it's still neutral. You have to jump over it to cross or deal with the water blasts just like your opponent. Otherwise, you've given up stage control. If you're charging bonus fruit, how are you doing that without giving up stage control or control of the hydrant? On the ground, you'll be pushed back to the ledge and now the hydrant firmly is in the control of your opponent. If you're charging bonus fruit in the air, you're nowhere close to being able to hit the hydrant in addition to being in no position to punish crossing over the hydrant, so you lose possession of the hydrant.
I'm not going to put the hydrant down, go to the other side of it, and then attempt to approach my opponent. I wouldn't have placed it in the first place, unless I am trying to quickly launch it myself, which as you have said, does have risks.
If I put the hydrant down and begin to charge BF from the start, I can make it to orange before I need to SH AD the first water blast if I don't want to be pushed, and make it to melon before I need to do the same with the second. If my opponent crosses over during this, I stop charging and engage them.
I wouldn't be charging BF in the air unless I was already in a disadvantageous position. What you said about that is correct, except if Pac-Man has an Apple to throw down.
The hydrant's water blasts can also save someone from eating a punish after hitting it. Since they'll drift backwards after launching, you're in no position to attack and you still have to deal with this hydrant coming at you. Something I learned while doing a bit of homework on the character to respond.
OK, but like we've said, if you're familiar with how each move launches the hydrant, Pac-Man shouldn't get hit. If I see that they're about to launch it right before a water blast starts pushing them, that's more time to charge for me.
Stronger characters can use it better because they can launch the attack with a safer move than you can. Ganondorf can probably launch it with ftilt which is by no means as laggy as your fsmash. You may not be getting hit by your own hydrant, but you still have to deal with it.
Ganon can launch it with Ftilt, and unless there's water in the way, I can run up and grab him after it, or throw an orange at him. I don't really have to deal with the hydrant if I'm standing in the launch blind spot, and even if I do, shield or spotdodge, problem solved.
If it's flying straight at you because the opponent knows the angle his hit will launch it at (and you're in its trajectory) you have to deal with it. Launched hydrants aren't Din's Fire. They're still large projectiles. If you're keeping it in situations where it won't get launched by your opponent, what good is it doing? What's its job? Shoot water while you charge bonus fruit? That's not the utility I think you are trying to get at when thinking of "stage control."
OK, maybe I should say "mobility hampering options". I don't see my hydrant getting launched at me as a big deal if I'm aware of this fact and prepare accordingly.
The same is even more true for your opponents and your opponents have a better grab than you. You may be able to charge bonus fruit on the other side, but while you're doing that you lose your utilt option which is a good anti-air and the opponent can bait punishes and eliminate any end lag by jumping on your trampoline, something you can't do. If you're not next to the trampoline waiting to punish an aerial approach, then the trampoline doesn't do anything for you much like the hydrant if you're far away. Once the trampoline goes away... then what? Put up another one and retreat?
Again, the BF standing cancel is quick enough to react to jump-ins and whatnot.
You're right about the opponent being able to use the trampoline to negate ending lag. I'm still safe though, and they're getting tossed higher, potentially leading to getting Uair'd or Bair'd.
If I'm not next to the trampoline to punish an aerial approach, it is still slowing most opponents down (even if slightly) from rushing me down if I'm too far away to punish and am charging. It is also still gives me the knowledge that I don't have to worry about any dash ins until they've jumped over my trampoline.
So, use trampolines aggressively. I can get on board with that. You know what that's not doing? Controlling the stage and setting up traps. If you hit with up-B, then you've set up the trampoline. I'm all for that. However, if you're throwing up a trampoline in neutral... that makes no sense.
Disagree. The trampoline sitting on the ground completely neutralizes any grounded approach both characters can make. I don't have to worry about immediate walk up tilts, dash attacks, dash grabs, Falcon kicks, spin charges, etc.
And your anti-little mac strategy is to put them closer to the edge... also known as giving up position. So you've given up stage control and he waits it out, now he has the entire stage at his back and you don't have anywhere to go.
Give up position yes, but can mac get to Pac-Man safely? If he sits there, you charge whatever fruit you want, and before your trampoline expires, you hydrant -> bair it, and jab it towards Mac, covering you to set up another one, or grab, or something. If he keeps standing right there, he can't react to a key that quickly either once you get it and are holding it.
I've considered what Pac is doing while the opponent is trying to weave their way in. But how are you setting up these traps in the first place? You're not setting up a trampoline for free, and setting down a hydrant doesn't give you much more of an advantage than it does your opponent. If you're charging BF, you're not close to the hydrant or in a position to punish any approach.
Whenever you land a hit, a grab, or at the start of the match, if Pac-Man so chooses. You can get a trampoline for free if necessary once the match starts. He shouldn't go to all out camping at the start vs. every character though.
Pages back I talked about some of the hydrant traps. Like bouncing a hydrant off the edge. You should be able to get through all traps sometimes (traps give you a favorable situation where you have a good chance of landing a hit), but if there's one option that consistently beats your trap, that trap isn't worth anything. It's like placing a cage over a mouse only for it to have an escape hole.
The trap I think you're referring to is a bouncing hydrant with a trampoline under it on the edge. The only option that "beats" this is waiting, but then you're on the ledge with no invincibility. If Pac-Man throws a bell, orange, or jumps over the trap after you, what are you going to do? If you let go, you've got no invincibility on regrab and you're getting hit.
I'm going off of the frame data in the academy. Projectile created on frame 12. I wouldn't make up numbers without a disclaimer of it being off my memory unless it's something I know well like MM utilt f6 or dtilt f5 or DK/MM BAir f4. 12 frames isn't awful (I think MM's skull barrier reflector is 11 or so) but it's not great.
OK.
Trampoline definitely limits ground games. Hydrant creates a neutral situation. Your argument hinges on one thing, giving you time to charge bonus fruit. If I'm anyone who has a charge attack (brawler, gunner, samus, robin, DK, Lucario, and Shulk to a degree with his arts) I'll gladly charge mine while you charge yours. Because...
Remember when I mentioned that 10% I wouldn't fully camp against? Samus, Robin, Gunner (if he/she has a charge shot), and Lucario at high damage are in that 10%. It is not always in Pac-Man's best interest to run, yes. I think I'd take my chances with DK and Brawler, but if that doesn't work out, Pac-Man can go in after them too.
Bonus fruit isn't even that good. -gasp-
It's not spammable, so it can't exert much pressure, and the reward on hit isn't high enough to base your entire game on charging it up unlike Samus' Charge Shot. Especially when you have characters with reflectors. Of the charge attacks, I don't find Bonus Fruit to be as intimidating as any of the other charge attacks.
Yes, reflectors change the game a bit. I'm starting to find Palutena pretty frustrating for Pac-Man. BF isn't spammable, your right, but you're brave if you've got no worries about keys.
The important thing here is that none of these options actually help you control/dominate positional play, also known as stage control. At best, they set neutral situations where you can charge your bonus fruit and then attack or keep retreating to stall. Bowser Jr. and Duck Hunt are far better stage control characters than Pacman. I really appreciate the discussion, but I still don't think his stage control is even remotely good.
OK, do you want to call them "mobility limiting options" then?
that a lot of people tend to forget is that DB doesn't only increase damage but also knockback. The knockback increase is REAL. That's basically the benefit to doing a DB IMO (aside from the % recovery).
