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Character Competitive Impressions

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Ffamran

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That's Yoshi you're thinking of. Ike isn't high tier without customs, while Bowser isn't any better than high-mid.
I said Ike and Bowser might be near top tier; I never said they were high tier and they're most likely upper-mid tier. Also, is Yoshi a heavyweight or a heavy-middleweight? It's weird since I think Ike, Yoshi, Link, and Captain Falcon are heavyweights, but they're not classified as so with Ganondorf, Charizard, Bowser, and Triple D. Y'know, we might as well call them heavyweights and have Ganondorf and co. as "Snorlaxes" or something...

Anyone else get the impression that all the bottom-tier characters in this game are mid-tier?
I feel this way too. Even if there are few who should be low tier, they might as well be at the bottom of mid-tier. Hell, this game might end up with just three tiers despite having soon-to-be 53 characters. Everyone seems viable in some way even if they have to work a lot to be viable. People say Diddy's easy to pick up and Sheik's more technical, but that doesn't stop them from being good nor does it stop Ganondorf and Charizard from being bad because they're more defensive, read-based, and punish-based.

One can hope.

Anyone else think Duck Hunt Dog is booty? Customless environment
Duck Hunt might just be more spammy to play as and that's just their thing. Check out Guy and Dunnobro's match: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF5Ptiv1DFo.

Duck Hunt can setup things, but it's like playing chess. You have to predict really well. Otherwise, Duck Hunt can just shutdown people by covering the area.

Also, it has Greninja so you could check out how the MU between Greninja and Duck Hunt.
 
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DavemanCozy

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Ike is high tier without customs.

The bottom stretch of high tier. But high tier. Ryo has done his thing a bit already, San got second at a tournament recently, I have an irrelevent-but-existant tournament win myself: Ike gets work done. The patch let him play fairly fast by sticking to certain moves and he still hits like a truck with great range while having a surprising amount of aerial speed.

His only glaring issues really are recovery (slightly improved from Brawl) and getting down when juggled. The reason why more people don't use him is because they only tried him pre-patched and have the mindset that he's still this slow wall like he was in Brawl. I had Sonic mains talking about how fast Ike looked when I was playing. Rather amusing to listen to.
And let's also give a hand to my bro Blitz, who got 9th at the Come Up and teamed up with Pika player Helldew getting 9th in dubs, taking a game off Ally + M2K.

I dunno if Ike is high tier, but he's definitely much better
 

san.

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I got first at my local tournaments with Ike, but there is only competition within the top 3 where I live.
 
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Nobie

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Speaking of Duck Hunt and Pac-Man, this is an interesting match from late December, featuring a projectile frenzy.

From what it looks like, Abadango will frequently just find any opportunity he can to start charging fruit, and depending on what fruit he has in his hands he'll change his hydrant strategies accordingly. While I'm sure that people are right in that Pac-Man's moveset doesn't really "flow," I'm not sure it necessarily needs to given how versatile it is. Of course, Duck Hunt isn't Sheik or Diddy, but you can see how Pac-Man's projectile game can make things uncomfortable for even a near-dedicated zoner.
 

Nu~

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Speaking of Duck Hunt and Pac-Man, this is an interesting match from late December, featuring a projectile frenzy.

From what it looks like, Abadango will frequently just find any opportunity he can to start charging fruit, and depending on what fruit he has in his hands he'll change his hydrant strategies accordingly. While I'm sure that people are right in that Pac-Man's moveset doesn't really "flow," I'm not sure it necessarily needs to given how versatile it is. Of course, Duck Hunt isn't Sheik or Diddy, but you can see how Pac-Man's projectile game can make things uncomfortable for even a near-dedicated zoner.
And this is what I mean.
Why does your character have to have a flow chart method for each match, when instead you can be incredibly versatile and handle any situation that calls?
And notice how the opponent only launched the hydrant twice, and both times it wasn't as nearly beneficial as it was when pac utilized it. And just wait to pac mains start practicing these...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PRGO_aUDclE

Being able to Launch the hydrant isn't the only benefit it offers. Ganon behind a hydrant isn't nearly as scary as fruit flying from different directions towards you every time.
 
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Emblem Lord

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It's a shame that all of the Fire Emblem characters (save Ike) are absolutely terrible in this game.

Fire Emblem tier is the new Hyrule tier.

Huge shame
Them not being good...is what makes the game as a whole... better. You do NOT want Fire Emblem to be top tier. In terms of footsies only a few chars can even go toe to toe with Ike and Marth. If you gave Marth just Brawl fair and Brawl d-tilt do you not realize how badly he would **** all over everyone?

The game is better with him in mid tier. Trust me.
 
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pimpimjim

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The gap between Marth and Lucina seems to be a bit overstated. They are both equally poor and at best mid, but Marth isn't that much better than Lucina to be a full tier above her
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Every character seems playable on a basic level in a competitive environment which is a lot more than could be said of the past smash games. Customs especially help nearly every would-be bottom as well. Olimar gets the incredibly disruptive Tackle Throw, Falco gets the amazing poke that is the Void Reflector and his choice of how to improve his recovery, Mii Swordfighter gets to be a character, Pac-Man gets the On-Fire Hydrant which is just ridiculously disruptive and several fun if gimmicky options (Meteor Trampoline and Freaky Fruit are both such shenanigans), Little Mac gets extra super armor on KO Punch, an anti-projectile counter (super helpful in some MUs), and the option to have an aerial armored move to help him recover past several things, and Zelda gets... a shield breaking phantom that is probably somewhat better than the default I guess. Nothing can help Zelda really, but all of the others are winners! Also, honestly, with customs off Palutena would be bottom tier, but she gets to be a legitimately good character with them on so there's that as well (yes, Super Speed is the difference of half of the tier list; the move is that important).

I don't really buy Fire Emblem tier. Marth is probably below the halfway mark but is playable and better than quite a few characters overall. Honestly Lucina's inferiority is overblown; she's definitely worse than Marth but her different power distribution is far from strictly inferior (helps usmash a lot if nothing else) and she about average out to being maybe 1-2 spots below him no more. Then Robin and Ike are actually good characters, both I would be very confident saying are in the top half of the cast (Ike with customs makes a good argument for top 10; he benefits more than almost any other character).

If I had to pick out an icon with a bunch of characters that is pretty bad overall, it would probably be the Kirby characters. Kirby himself is pretty thoroughly mediocre, DDD is playable but the worst heavyweight (I truly have no idea why people put DK and Ganon below him), and MK with his butter knife seems like he's not staying out of bottom tier by the biggest of margins why did he go from easy to play super rewarding to hard to play and unrewarding? None of them really belong in bottom tier, but I'm pretty sure based on my current understanding of the game that all three are in the bottom third of the cast which is a pretty poor average and worse than that of any other multi-character series.
 

PK Gaming

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Robin's solidly mid-tier. Weaknesses to some of the prevalent top tiers, but saying Robin is bad is grossly underestimating the character.
Okay so Robin is admittedly not in bottom tier (I was being hyperbolic) but, does being mid tier really mean anything in the grand scheme of things? Robin gets destroyed by the top tiers in this game. That's a death sentence, straight up. He/she might as well be mincemeat.
 

HeavyLobster

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DDD is playable but the worst heavyweight (I truly have no idea why people put DK and Ganon below him),
Hold on. Please explain how Ganon is better than Dedede. Those are the two characters I'm most familiar with and I'm pretty confident Dedede is much safer and more reliable than Ganon.
 

Ffamran

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Okay so Robin is admittedly not in bottom tier (I was being hyperbolic) but, does being mid tier really mean anything in the grand scheme of things? Robin gets destroyed by the top tiers in this game. That's a death sentence, straight up. He/she might as well be mincemeat.
It does in a sense that mid tiers remain viable and there appears to be a ton of characters in mid tier while a handful are "super tier" - perhaps Diddy and Sheik? - and some are high tier like Yoshi and Fox. SSB4 seems like a game where skills means so much and any character can in theory win unlike in past games where there were select characters who were viable and benefited off the engine while the rest were difficult to use. Some, like Brawl Ganondorf were hopeless, but I could see people using Mii Swordfighter and winning provided some divine force is on their side and they're that damn good.
 
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Amazing Ampharos

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Okay so Robin is admittedly not in bottom tier (I was being hyperbolic) but, does being mid tier really mean anything in the grand scheme of things? Robin gets destroyed by the top tiers in this game. That's a death sentence, straight up. He/she might as well be mincemeat.
Robin is not easy to play, but I don't really buy that Robin is destroyed by anyone in particular. Robin forces approach better than any other character in the game due to how charging Thoron works; there's just not a viable way to fight Robin other than approach constantly as to not give Robin free Thoron all the time. Then Robin has a lot of good, disjointed sword normals with excellent speed-power as long as you have Levin Sword up, including 4 aerials that auto-cancel out of a short-hop which is pretty fantastic and pretty uncommon even among fast characters. Force an approach with the threat of a charge and counter the approaches with your good sword normals, throwing Arcfire to be disruptive in longer range footsies. That's not to say that Robin isn't without disadvantages; s/he has several and is pretty likely not among the top characters. I just think Robin's core gameplan is solid enough that a dedicated main could threaten anyone.

Hold on. Please explain how Ganon is better than Dedede. Those are the two characters I'm most familiar with and I'm pretty confident Dedede is much safer and more reliable than Ganon.
Ganon not only honestly attacks faster with critical moves (like seriously, DDD is so slow...), but Ganon hits a lot harder too. DDD is probably safer and more reliable, but honestly neither character is safe or reliable at all and Ganon can gain advantages far more rapidly off good reads with both characters really depending on said good reads in the first place. I mean, Ganon's game theory basically is that if he knows what you are going to do he's the best character in the game since his punishes are the best in the game and if he doesn't he's in a lot of trouble since his neutral is the worst. DDD's theory is that he has a lot of priority and a very long list of downsides to go with it. I like Ganon's theory more; both kinda rely on the other side running into their stuff but Ganon's pays off with a win much faster. I dunno, maybe without customs DDD is better because Ganon's recovery is so awful, but with customs Ganon probably has a better recovery than DDD (Wizard's Dropkick is that good and Dark Fists or whatever the hitting up-B is called is also a huge upgrade). I'd put both in bottom half, but between the two of them, I definitely believe more in Ganon.

To be clear, I recognize DDD is a fully playable character. We have a local DDD main who puts in some work with him; the character is far from a joke, but he definitely has issues.
 
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Emblem Lord

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Robin has a pretty serious dead zone.

Maybe since I play footsie chars in alot of fighting games its easy for me to see. I'm sure Robin players know the zone im talking about.
 

PK Gaming

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Robin is not easy to play, but I don't really buy that Robin is destroyed by anyone in particular. Robin forces approach better than any other character in the game due to how charging Thoron works; there's just not a viable way to fight Robin other than approach constantly as to not give Robin free Thoron all the time. Then Robin has a lot of good, disjointed sword normals with excellent speed-power as long as you have Levin Sword up, including 4 aerials that auto-cancel out of a short-hop which is pretty fantastic and pretty uncommon even among fast characters. Force an approach with the threat of a charge and counter the approaches with your good sword normals, throwing Arcfire to be disruptive in longer range footsies. That's not to say that Robin isn't without disadvantages; s/he has several and is pretty likely not among the top characters. I just think Robin's core gameplan is solid enough that a dedicated main could threaten anyone.
Thoron forcing approaches doesn't count for much in matchups where your opponent want to approach (which is nearly all of top tier). As for his/her matchups against the top tiers:

-Sheik can camp you, and obliterate you up close
-Mario, Diddy and Fox can literally trap Robin in a vortex
-Wario can punish nearly all of Robin's moves with a powerful KO move
-Yoshi and ZSS just win

You get the picture. Robin is good on paper, but his/her movement speed is absolutely horrendous in a game where movement is god, most of their bronze sword normals ground are unsafe (which means bad pokes), and the Levin Sword is finite. Worse still, you can get punished pretty badly if your opponent manages to get through Arcfire, his/her close up game is garbage, and his recovery is abusable.

Robin has a pretty serious dead zone.

Maybe since I play footsie chars in alot of fighting games its easy for me to see. I'm sure Robin players know the zone im talking about.
Exactly. It's not hard to get through his/her projectiles.
 
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ParanoidDrone

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Then Robin has a lot of good, disjointed sword normals with excellent speed-power as long as you have Levin Sword up, including 4 aerials that auto-cancel out of a short-hop which is pretty fantastic and pretty uncommon even among fast characters.
Autocanceled aerials you say? Which ones are those? (Or more concisely, which one doesn't autocancel?)

I dunno, maybe without customs DDD is better because Ganon's recovery is so awful, but with customs Ganon probably has a better recovery than DDD (Wizard's Dropkick is that good and Dark Fists or whatever the hitting up-B is called is also a huge upgrade).
I think Dark Vault is Ganondorf's "better recovery" option, he basically jumps twice but can only grab at the start or end, not in the middle.
 

Conda

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Robin is solid, but in the same sour spot as many 'solid' character who are, well... 'balanced'. You know - slow grab endlag, slow runspeed - generally the type of setbacks none of the sheik/diddy/etc type characters are designed with in mind.

It's better to be a well rounded character that is 'balanced' than a specialized character that is 'balanced'. Because being specialized means the developers designed certain character archetypes to have an easy time defeating you. And that's not a good thing if you plan on solo-maining that character. These 'specialized characters' seem to be designed as counterpicks - specialized slayers of certain archetypes, in a rock-paper-scissors fashion (but not too strictly speaking, of course).

So if you main multiple characters, it's probably a good idea to pick up some of these lower-tier-but-super-specialized characters that help you in certain matchups. For those looking to main one solo character, you're going to want to go with an all-rounded not-counterable character that will serve you well in any matchup.

The 'I can do it all on my own' characters remain more resilient in tournaments, and are reliable counterpick characters as well at this point in the metagame. But we may see more players opt for a counterpick-focused approach to character selection, rather than sticking to one main and one secondary main. We may see more players counterpicking characters like Robin, Little Mac, Dk, and such depending on the match up. We've seen players like Nairo start a set with a specialized character like Robin, switch to an all-rounder like Pit if Robin isn't working out, and then switch to a more solid and pressure-focused character like ZSS if he needs some super powerful tools to help tip the scales.

It's too bad Robin wasn't designed as an all-rounder, as that's what he/she is in their games. But he's still a ton of fun. I'm hoping there's a way to play him that turns him into a more well rounded character who isn't so easily defeated by rushdown. It doesn't currently seem that solo-maining characters like Robin is the best of ideas, but I'm welcoming the idea of a player who plays Robin and Robin only, and can do well in a tournament without switching out.
 
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HeavyLobster

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Robin is not easy to play, but I don't really buy that Robin is destroyed by anyone in particular. Robin forces approach better than any other character in the game due to how charging Thoron works; there's just not a viable way to fight Robin other than approach constantly as to not give Robin free Thoron all the time. Then Robin has a lot of good, disjointed sword normals with excellent speed-power as long as you have Levin Sword up, including 4 aerials that auto-cancel out of a short-hop which is pretty fantastic and pretty uncommon even among fast characters. Force an approach with the threat of a charge and counter the approaches with your good sword normals, throwing Arcfire to be disruptive in longer range footsies. That's not to say that Robin isn't without disadvantages; s/he has several and is pretty likely not among the top characters. I just think Robin's core gameplan is solid enough that a dedicated main could threaten anyone.



Ganon not only honestly attacks faster with critical moves (like seriously, DDD is so slow...), but Ganon hits a lot harder too. DDD is probably safer and more reliable, but honestly neither character is safe or reliable at all and Ganon can gain advantages far more rapidly off good reads with both characters really depending on said good reads in the first place. I mean, Ganon's game theory basically is that if he knows what you are going to do he's the best character in the game since his punishes are the best in the game and if he doesn't he's in a lot of trouble since his neutral is the worst. DDD's theory is that he has a lot of priority and a very long list of downsides to go with it. I like Ganon's theory more; both kinda rely on the other side running into their stuff but Ganon's pays off with a win much faster. I dunno, maybe without customs DDD is better because Ganon's recovery is so awful, but with customs Ganon probably has a better recovery than DDD (Wizard's Dropkick is that good and Dark Fists or whatever the hitting up-B is called is also a huge upgrade). I'd put both in bottom half, but between the two of them, I definitely believe more in Ganon.

To be clear, I recognize DDD is a fully playable character. We have a local DDD main who puts in some work with him; the character is far from a joke, but he definitely has issues.
Ok. If you're counting customs I'd say they're pretty close, with Ganon probably being better due to having fewer hard counters. Most of my experience is in the customless meta, where D3's survivability advantage is greatly appreciated against high tiers with great gimp games that I happen to play against frequently, namely Pikachu and Sheik.(not that those MUs are easy by any means)
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Robin doesn't really zone with projectiles in any kind of an effective way; the whole point of the Thoron is to force the mobility not to be such a crippling issue. If they're moving into your range, hit them with your sword. If they're staying out, charge Thoron. If they try to hang just barely outside of range or are using someone like Shulk who has a longer sword than you Arcfire them. I don't see the dead spot, especially since while Robin's mobility is pretty poor it isn't zero. I mean, Robin isn't fast; it's not easy. If you throw out the wrong move at the wrong time (or don't attack when you need to!) you get punished, and it requires good fundamental defense to escape bad situations. It is, however, doable, especially since so many of those aerials auto-cancel and you do have a pretty serviceable jab (you honestly don't even need your tilts/dash attack that much so their lack of safety isn't a huge deal). Yes resource limits make this even harder yet; you have to really play the spatial control game carefully and smart, but everything that matters recharges fast enough that it isn't crippling.

Emblem Lord I know plays many other fighters so perhaps this analogy won't be wasted. A good parallel character from another fighter is Dormammu from UMvC3. Dorm was honestly a pretty slow guy in a game that was mostly speedy rushdown, but he was one of the best characters in the game. He had a lot of projectiles but spamming them on average accomplished nothing and got you killed. It's not like he was a good support character either; his assists kinda sucked. How did he do it? Well, his normals were really good at stuffing approaches, his punishes hit hard, those non-spammable projectiles were at least really good at sniping people if he had a read, and if you elected to just hang back he'd charge spells which let him rain meteors on the battlefield which was as strong as it sounds. Charging spells in that fast paced of a game with people rushing you was pretty much impossible (there were a few sneaky set-ups mid-combo, totally predicated on you landing that hit in the first place of course). It didn't matter. The mere fact that you could forced people to play around that fact. No one ever wanted to give Dorm breathing room, and his mere presence on the battlefield forced people to play his game. His spells could be the most powerful move in the game you never used just because of what it forced his opponent to do. If you actually did get your rushdown in on him his escapes weren't even all that great, but he at least had high health and was able to use the universal defensive options just like everyone else to endure. That's pretty much Robin except with Thoron instead of Dorm's spells. You can play a full game, never hit the neutral special once, and Thoron can win you the game.

Robin is probably not as good as Dorm was, but that fundamental gameplan is sound. It's hard; Robin is probably one of the hardest characters to play since you have to be so careful between your difficulties at point blank, your low mobility, and your resource limits. It is, however, very sound, and I have a firm belief its power will only grow with time. Now obviously I'm talking out of pure game theory here; this game is way too young for us to actually be sure which characters are good or bad especially complicated characters like Robin, and Robin isn't even popular locally so it's not like I even see an awful lot of him/her. I just can't help but look at the tools I see and see a powerful character, and it's easy not to worry about early difficulties since Robin is transparently a very difficult character to play (but difficult to play does not necessarily mean bad).

@ ParanoidDrone ParanoidDrone Robin's only aerial that doesn't AC out of a shorthop is dair. Dark Fists is also just so scary on ledges; it's hard to ledge trap Ganon when he can throw out that kind of a hit at whim.

@ Conda Conda I dunno; I think that's biases from old smash games talking. All of the past smash games had characters who were good at everything that mattered alongside several specialist level strengths (64 Pikachu, Melee Sheik, Brawl MK), and that distorted the metagames by making a lot of specialists just obsolete with the further question of why play a specialist at all when you can have specialist level strengths with no weaknesses of significance at all. A lot of other fighters have avoided that problem over the years, and I think 4 avoids it for the first time in smash series history. In these other fighters, sure the well rounded Ryu types always do well, but the specialists who are supposed to run into problems just overcome. Just look at least year's EVO and how well Snakeyes placed in SFIV with Zangief, a super extreme character who I'm pretty sure allegedly has several hard counters. While I would agree that high tier "well rounded" characters are safer and easier, I'm not really convinced they're better than the more extreme guys; often the extreme characters require more creative thinking in certain match-ups but can make it work and then proceed to ruin everyone's day when that happens.
 
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PK Gaming

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@ Amazing Ampharos Amazing Ampharos

I'm not going to lie and say you opened my eyes to the possibility of Robin being good (I still think his matchups against the top tiers are miserable) but... I definitely want to reconsider my initial assessment. I'm not an optimistic guy when it comes to Smash; i've been burned one too many times (even in Smash 4) so i've resigned myself to considering the worst possible outcome. So positivity is a no go for me, but at the same time... being negative doesn't smart either (in retrospect, my "Fire Emblem Tier" post was ****ing hot garbage).

I guess the only thing I can do now is wait and have faith. Robin will never be a top character, but if the metagame advances to a point where he becomes passable, i'll be content.
 
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mimgrim

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I was doing friendlies today and was playing random and got Marth. Opponent was playing DHD. We were both to last stock but I was in the 100% area while he was in the 23%-30% range and I just space a tipper Fsmash (IIRC I ended up putting him to 41-48% after I landed it) and it killed. I know you guys said it had ridiculous kill power but I wasn't expecting it to be that ****ing ridiculous.
 

HeroMystic

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Marth's tipper F-Smash is no joke, but it only lands as a hard read. I don't believe there's any real way to set it up.
 

Nocally

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Pikachu can just duck under all of Robin´s thoron attacks and disrupt him/her with thunder jolts. and pikachu is nimble and fast enough to cross up all around robin while he/she charges or fire the spells. Only real threat Robin has against Pikachu (in my opinion) is his/her aerials or some kind of trap in the air into some lethal attacks.

Also Pikachu´s crouch + D-tilt and short hop D-air counter 80-90 % of Ganon´s moves.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Them not being good...is what makes the game as a whole... better. You do NOT want Fire Emblem to be top tier. In terms of footsies only a few chars can even go toe to toe with Ike and Marth. If you gave Marth just Brawl fair and Brawl d-tilt do you not realize how badly he would **** all over everyone?

The game is better with him in mid tier. Trust me.
I'd rathet Marth have his fair and dtilt back. He'd be stronger but I don't understand the logic of him needing to be bad. More characters with srrong tools is a good thing imo and leads to a more diverse metagame.
 

TriTails

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......Are Mario and Wario considered top tier in this game?

And.... can we have some discussion on Jigglypuff? She is the closest on being a reversed Little Mac, great air bad ground, and I find that interesting.
 

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Jigglypuff's ground game isn't bad, I wonder when people will stop saying that. It's limited, sure, but potent at what it does. Dash attack is really good at damage racking and knocking people offstage, her grab range is really good and she has one of the most damaging grab games (all throws deal at least 10% and her pummel is quite effective), her jab sets up for a grab or dash attack, and FSmash is really strong. Her tilts and other smashes have situational usage, too.

You'd be surprised how annoying those first three things I mentioned can be. After struggling to fight a Counter-happy Marth from the air, I switched to be more ground based and promptly stomped him. Puff gets a lot of leverage out of only a handful of attacks.
 
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TriTails

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Jigglypuff's ground game isn't bad, I wonder when people will stop saying that. It's limited, sure, but potent at what it does. Dash attack is really good at damage racking nd knocking people offstage, her grab range is really good and she has one of the most damaging grab games (all throws deal at least 10% and her pummel is quite effective), her jab sets up for a grab or dash attack, and FSmash is really strong. Her tilts and other smashes have situational usage, too.

You'd be surprised how annoying those first three things I mentioned can be. After struggling to fight a Counter-happy Marth from the air, I switched to be more ground based and promptly stomped him. Puff gets a lot of leverage out of only a handful of attacks.
Maybe it's because every Jiggs I play spend so much time in the air that they forgot that there is a 'shield' button. I literally just Luigi dash attacked her and it worked. And these Jiggs fit of everything you say, dash attack with occasional grabs and jabs. Yeah, they are annoying, but not so much after I dash attacked her back, and this is Luigi's dash attack, that is considered one of the worst in the game. But hey, those Jigglys pretty much forgetting their shield, so I guess this is irrelevant.

Serious question: Who has a worse ground game than Jiggs? Can't think of anyone.
 
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ChronoPenguin

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Robin has a pretty serious dead zone.

Maybe since I play footsie chars in alot of fighting games its easy for me to see. I'm sure Robin players know the zone im talking about.
If I'm not ******** just outside sword range. Anyone who outranges or effectively outranges can basically **** there. Robin can't arcfire as you can just dash inside or hell walk inside with some characters.

I still think highly of Robin However, aparrantly more then everyone else.



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To the jiggly talk
Jiggly puff doesn't have a weak ground game. I've been hit by **** only to wonder why does it hit so blinking hard. Compared to Kirby sure her ground game isn't "fast" but girl has a lot of knock back that props you up or straight out-right kills and her throw game is better then Kirby's for some god forsaken reason.

She actually kills on air and ground and its probably as justification for being the easiest character to knock out. Kirby's ground game is arguably worse due to less reward. Fast but not a lot of reward for it. Most of his frame data is about or identical to brawl.
 

meleebrawler

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I'm pretty sure Robin benefits well from customs, too. Especially Thunder.
With Thunder+ you can make his projectile game actually really threatening (because let's face it,
default Thoron really isn't that strong) with it actually killing under 100%, and Speed Thunder helps
make the move more usable on disruptive characters. Fire Wall also greatly improves the speed of Arcfire
against rush characters.
 

Thinkaman

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Thoron+ is disgusting. 31.5%, good shield poke, cannot be spot-dodged or rolled (except point-blank around Robin), and kills early.

Speed Thunder is good for Robin's worst matchups, like Sheik.
 

Signia

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is there any character that especially excels on platform stages? I'm looking for a nice compliment to Little Mac.
 

meleebrawler

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Thoron+ is disgusting. 31.5%, good shield poke, cannot be spot-dodged or rolled (except point-blank around Robin), and kills early.

Speed Thunder is good for Robin's worst matchups, like Sheik.
But then using Thoron+ just once seems to break your tome... which could actually be the fastest
way to get a book in your hand. The second fastest being wasting Nosferatu, and that takes like 30 seconds to come back.
 

warionumbah2

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So MK is bottom cuz of his butter knife that is disjointed and being difficult to play unlike Brawl Jesus Knight... cute. Meta game is fresh out the womb afterall.
 

Quickhero

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I'd rather Marth have his fair and dtilt back. He'd be stronger but I don't understand the logic of him needing to be bad. More characters with strong tools is a good thing imo and leads to a more diverse metagame.
He isn't bad, he is a SOLID MID TIER, at the very worst, he is an average character, but he still has the tools to make him an above average character. It's like a lot of people here think that because Marth isn't top tier for once he is instantly bad. Like a lot of characters, he is a solid, well-rounded character that can work well in a lot of match-ups if you are skilled. Yes, they didn't really need to nerf his movement speed and the lag on his aerial moves, but they didn't nerf them SO BAD that he can't kill really early and can't space properly, which, as long as he can do that consistently when someone is skilled with him, he will never be bad. Again, at the very worst, he is an average character.
 
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DavemanCozy

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Samus *shots fired*

She has projectiles though, but if you're talking like close range ground game, Samus.
Yeah, I agree. Her range is at least good in the neutral, but it's so slow. I still don't know why they decided making her jab terrible would be a good idea.
 
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