Character Competitive Impressions

[David Viran]

Ok diddy's down throw up air can be DIed out of at kill percents. It still puts you in a bad position but it's not a guaranteed kill.

 

[BSP]

I'm not comfortable placing [snip] Pac-Man,[snip]

As far as Pac-Man goes, between all of his special moves, I think he is a legitimate time out threat to 90% of the cast, and against the other 10%, he can hold his own because the characters that outcamp him don't have the best CQC games to demolish him with.

You probably already know this, but Pac Man's specials make approaching a nightmare, and he's loaded with anti-camp tools himself.

He's got the trampoline to make the opponent jump, screw with their approach game, and it also serves as an unblockable attack option that only loses to a preemptive roll. It's also pretty difficult to punish aggressively since it forces jumping.

He's got the hydrant to screw with approaches, meatshield stuff, serve as a projectile, and edgeguard. I don't think many people know since Pac Man is pretty underused, but when he's edgeguarding, he can launch his hydrant with his Up B on the ledge. This leads to a bouncing hydrant over a trampoline, which covers all ledge options except wait and ledge drop, both of which lead to no invincibility on regrab. With a bell or orange, Pac Man gets free punish off of this.

He's got the Bonus Fruit to tank other projectiles (All of them, namely cherry and strawberry though), have varying fireballs (Key, Orange, Apple), a tank (Melon), a combo startar (Galaxian), and the bell to cheeze out 90% KOs.

He's got the Power Pellet to tank other projectiles and heal himself in the process. Unless the opponent has projectiles with a high rate of fire, Pac Man can heal himself when the opponent tries to camp him. He steers his side B into the oncoming projectile, side B gets cancelled while the pellet absorbs the projectile, Pac Man eats the pellet for 2%. Repeat. Combine this power with the trampoline, hydrant, and BF and you've got issues.

So in a nutshell, if your character doesn't outcamp Pac Man, you've got hell coming in order to get past a field littered with trampolines, hydrants, a barrage of fruit, and Pac Man waiting to punish your approach attempts with an unblockable OOS move, a quick poking Fair, and a Falconish U air.

That's not to say that Pac Man is some unstoppable force. Rushdown characters can most definitely apply good pressure once they're in, and his grab is awful + easily exploited. His own attack speed on his beefy aerials (Bair and Uair) leave a bit to be desired, he has difficulty KO'ing, and IMO, he struggles a ton to get back up from the ledge safely.

If you have a projectile but it doesn't have a high enough rate of fire to hit Pac Man when he tries to absorb it with Side B, you have to approach and deal with the above. You heal him for trying to camp him out. If your projectile does have a high enough rate of fire to deal with Pac Man's side B, hydrant probably tanks it without being launched, leaving you back at square one.

I think the reason he's underused is that to use his tools to maximum effectiveness (and for him to appear viable), you have to camp, and sometimes you have to camp hard. If you don't play lame against the likes of Falcon, Sonic, Yoshi, Fox, and so on, Pac Man gets overwhelmed. If you watch Abadango's match vs. Nietono, this is pretty much what he does. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHf2t6m6KxQ)

I don't think anyone is willing to fully devote to this yet, nor is it the most fun strategy, but I think a Pac Man that isn't afraid to use his keep away game to full potential is a dangerous opponent and viable for sure. I don't think he's in top 10 (only because of his grab), but I wouldn't put him any worse than top 20.

In either case, I think Luigi's main struggle are going to be characters with a powerful mid-range zoning game like Rosalina, Shulk or Ike.

I think Pac Man is going to give him trouble too. Put hydrants and trampolines all over the field and I don't see how Luigi is approaching without major difficulty. Pac Man being able to heal off of any fireball attempt is insult to injury.

 

[DanGR]

If you're willing to sift through the raw footage, you can find the matches on vgbc's twitch page under past broadcasts.

This is for BEAST V.

 

[Tagxy]

Blah, lost my post for another one. TL;DR felt like ESAM shouldve been doing better in neutral, but kept contesting Diddy with SH aerials instead of staying grounded for some reason. Played generic with Fair, Dair, Jolt, QA which is fine if it works, but didnt mix it up when it stopped working and kept rushing in. And he kept getting hit by dthrow combos im 90% sure dont work if you DI correctly and escape with airdodge > nair or just nair. Edge guarding Diddy is not a guarantee, its similar to fox in melee he has a couple ways to recover and if you guess the one he'll do its a gimp if not he makes it back. Pika can cover high with thunder spike but Diddy can end up going low.

 

[ZHMT]

Ok diddy's down throw up air can be DIed out of at kill percents. It still puts you in a bad position but it's not a guaranteed kill.

Down throw and up air scale differently and have different base knockback values iirc. Because of rage, there are percents Diddy can be at where the Dthrow is a guaranteed KO. Also Halberd ceiling is really low and it makes dthrow to uair pretty much a Melee Fox uthrow Uair that you can't SDI. Town and City also has a lower ceiling than average aiding the combo.

I think if Dthrow to Uair works well on your character, Battlefield is a solid choice due to its higher ceiling. Also I don't play Samus but it seems like she can avoid being killed by it altogether by being floaty and heavy. Unfortunately the matchup is probably awful outside of that.

Also yesterday I was watching KiT and there were tons of missed escapes by Esam and Manny in the last couple sets. Can't you jump after your 270 degree jump to avoid the mixup altogether? They weren't really doing it.

 

[BSP]

For Luigi Cyclone, don't you just activate it while ascending from a double jump to make it easier to rise? You don't have to mash at inhuman speeds this way, at least this is how I thought it worked in Smash 4.

If you have to jump to get it to rise, you get less out of cyclone's gimp potential, which is downright scary. Even as Pac Man, I wouldn't recover low vs. a Luigi that can jumpless rising cyclone.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Did people forget that Diddy can literally hit with all his aerials except for Dair maybe after his Dthrow? Cause people been only bringing up the classic kill setup but forgetting that he can do fair and bair too.

 

[David Viran]

Did people forget that Diddy can literally hit with all his aerials except for Dair maybe after his Dthrow? Cause people been only bringing up the classic kill setup but forgetting that he can do fair and bair too.

Yeah but why would he use Bair when fair is superior in almost every way. He's also not the only one who can set up into fair or Bair like luigi and zss.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Just cause a move is inferior than another doesn't mean it's never used in certain circumstances.

 

[David Viran]

When is a situation to use Bair over fair? Off of throws.

 

[meleebrawler]

When is a situation to use Bair over fair? Off of throws.

To keep Fair fresher?

 

[Tagxy]

I know pika can escape dthrow fair at 55% (no rage), maybe earlier. Pika is light and small but I feel like people can escape earlier then they might believe if they test their options.

 

[David Viran]

I know pika can escape dthrow fair at 55% (no rage), maybe earlier. Pika is light and small but I feel like people can escape earlier then they might believe if they test their options.

Down throw fair that early? What kind of DI like away or something?

 

[meleebrawler]

Is there any particular reason you post in haiku?

I'm not trying to haiku, I just like writing
smaller lines because I find things easier to
read that way. Does it bother you?

 

[Tagxy]

Down throw fair that early? What kind of DI like away or something?

DI straight back then airdodge.

 

[mimgrim]

I'm not trying to haiku, I just like writing
smaller lines because I find things easier to
read that way. Does it bother you?

I can't speak for him but for me personally I gloss over everything you type because it is such an eyesore to read.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'm not trying to haiku, I just like writing
smaller lines because I find things easier to
read that way. Does it bother you?

There is a reason why literally nobody else on the site types like that.

 

[meleebrawler]

Ok, ok, I get it. Just that nobody had pointed this out to me before.

 

[A2ZOMG]

When is a situation to use Bair over fair? Off of throws.

Really low percents when it strings into itself for potentially greater damage.

 

[Antonykun]

Ok, ok, I get it. Just that nobody had pointed this out to me before.

Well i for one liked how you wrote stuff, though it is very difficult to read for some reason....

 

[NachoOfCheese]

My reaction to all the Diddy Kong rage:

 

[Ffamran]

Forgive my ignorance about L-cancelling, but how much of an impact does it have on the game? @Izaw discovered Falco can L-cancel his Dair and it makes me wonder who else can and how it would effect their game plan.

Here's a video that Izaw recorded: http://youtu.be/spHWz-9F7cQ.

Edit: And someone in the comments mentioned jump-cancel Up Smash. Has that been a thing for a while like dash to Up Smash?

 

[Conda]

Forgive my ignorance about L-cancelling, but how of an impact does it have on the game? @Izaw discovered Falco can L-cancel his Dair and it makes me wonder who else can and how it would effect their game plan.

Here's a video that Izaw recorded: http://youtu.be/spHWz-9F7cQ.

Edit: And someone in the comments mentioned jump-cancel Up Smash. Has that been a thing for a while like dash to Up Smash?

1) This is not L-cancelling. This is utilizing the frames of an attack that allow you to not have landing lag. It's fairly obvious what moves have this as it's noticeable when it happens (we already know of a few moves that have unique windows like this). The discoveries may come slower for lesser played characters like Falco.

2) JCUsmash has been a thing for a while.


But yeah, it's good for Falco. Thanks for sharing this video.

 

[Nu~]

Yeah. Pac-Man also has those unique frames of no landing lag in his bair. The difference is, the move cancels before the hitbox comes out. However, it does give us a way to catch z dropped fruit without any form of landing lag and gives us a lag less option to land in general like mega man's nair.

 

[Ffamran]

1) This is not L-cancelling. This is utilizing the frames of an attack that allow you to not have landing lag. It's fairly obvious what moves have this as it's noticeable when it happens (we already know of a few moves that have unique windows like this). The discoveries may come slower for lesser played characters like Falco.

2) JCUsmash has been a thing for a while.


But yeah, it's good for Falco. Thanks for sharing this video.

Yeah, I was kind of confused on what L-canceling meant, since Izaw and others said it was more like auto-canceling despite Izaw having the guide saying "Falco can L-cancel". Here's the guide: http://smashboards.com/guides/falco-dair-cancel.188/. Izaw also said it was more like a L(ag) cancel or a frame cancel which made it worse... brain... hurts...

L-canceling from what I remember before this video and thread was that you air dodged before landing or something to lessen the landing lag. It was also something that was only in Melee, but I heard about it being in use in SSB4, but I'm not sure.

So... JCUsmash is a thing like DACUS and Dash Attack to Up Smash...

 

[Chuva]

It's an interesting tech but i'm not sure it will have that much of an impact. We're still talking about a 16 frames start-up Dair, which is not hard to shield on reaction. Very rewarding though considering Falco's excellent damage output.

 

[Shaya]

Arr, so that's what that was.
I kinda noticed rare scenarios that I had daired into up smash seemingly extremely fasted, and that was it.
Shame it doesn't work on shield (lol)

JCUsmash is just that though... it's more like a dash jc usmash. I guess Sakurai made Up smashes in Smash 4 a thing that could be done out of a dash rather than jump cancelling it like in previous games (which often had slides).

 

[Ffamran]

It's one of those moves that can give people a rude awakening since you might not see it that often like imagine getting caught by a Warlock Punch or Mr. Game & Watch's Uair windbox killing you. At the right time, the right moment, and the right move, anything can be dangerous, especially one that you don't see often or don't expect.

Arr, so that's what that was.
I kinda noticed rare scenarios that I had daired into up smash seemingly extremely fasted, and that was it.
Shame it doesn't work on shield (lol)

JCUsmash is just that though... it's more like a dash jc usmash. I guess Sakurai made Up smashes in Smash 4 a thing that could be done out of a dash rather than jump cancelling it like in previous games (which often had slides).

I've never done it, but I tend to throw out Falco's Dair a lot on-stage when I shouldn't, but it feels so good to land them.

I think it sort of works on shield in a sense, that it allows Falco to get out faster or react faster since the landing lag with Dair is horrible to say the least compared to Fair which has a hitbox.

Edit: I kind of feel like asking the guys and gals at the Falco section to give more input on Falco and other stuff, but I don't know if I should since they have no obligation to be here anyway.

 

[Kofu]

@Lavani proved it works with Falcon's Knee:

Either way it's cool for Falco/Falcon.

 

[Trifroze]

@Lavani proved it works with Falcon's Knee:

Either way it's cool for Falco/Falcon.

It also works with Falcon's dair in a bit different way. He hits the ground during smash stun, making it 3 frames instead of 11 and effectively reducing landing lag on it.

E: That may be how it always works though.

 

[Ffamran]

It also works with Falcon's dair in a bit different way. He hits the ground during smash stun, making it 3 frames instead of 11 and effectively reducing landing lag on it.

Nice! @Lavani said Ganondorf's Dair can do it too. The Frame Cancel thread is entirely on this; here's a link and thank Izaw for creating the thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-cancel.386639/.

 

[TriTails]

I think Pac Man is going to give him trouble too. Put hydrants and trampolines all over the field and I don't see how Luigi is approaching without major difficulty. Pac Man being able to heal off of any fireball attempt is insult to injury.

Trampolines, but not hydrants. Luigi's B-air knocks it away in a single hit, which is an insult to Pac-Man due to..... his pre-patch hydrant glory.

Never actually ecounter a Pac-Man with Trampolines on the ground, but maybe you can Green Missile over it. If you want to negate the end lag (Most of it anyway) jump then Green Missile. A theory anyway.

And also, I agree on he struggles with Rosaluma and Shulk, but not Ike IMO. Nice combo city, and slow sword swings (At least, from what I remembered. Can't really look at his frame data because I'm not typing in a computer here) just makes it worse for him (How many times did I interrupt his SHFF F-airs with my own SHFF aerials?) and he has zero answers to Fireballs. Luigi's fast attack speed can potentially overwhelm him quickly.

Dat aerials and smashes tho....

 

[Shaya]

Pikachu is kinda obscene, really starting to come out as more players start practicing with him, including those of high level.

One particular thing in the Smash4 meta thus far which reminds me of League of Legends is "mobility creep", where it has been a continuing issue where those without those mobility tools are less viable (sometimes a lot less viable) and bringing counter play to mobility is an oxymoron.

A lot of the great characters we see in this game have fast, safe, super high priority, strong horizontal (sometimes vertical) displacement specials that can be varied by user input.


Questionable:

Diddy's Side-B is funnily enough one of the most limited of the bunch but is still insanely strong. A high priority high damage attack, or the best air grab, two distances for the air dash.
Fox side-b being completely static doesn't change it's long distance, low cool down, comboability, etc but both his, Falco and Wolf's set the precedent of the high utility mobile displacement options by having the amazing three cancel options for variability. And in Melee cancelling the distance at any point as well. The fact that the space animals lost this sucked in my mind a lot, because it's not like the ability isn't seen elsewhere and isn't a "healthy" mechanic.
Luigi's down-b is quite captivating, can go across the stage or up into the skies, can be used for shield pressure or reliable for combos or kills.
Pikachu's Up-B is everything Falco's Side-B was in Brawl but in my mind twice as 'good'/effective. The length of each dash is insane, it's hitbox is large and getting hit by it combos into things. The mix up/safety/pressure of this thing is unmatched. The ending animation being a low landing is legitimately the reason this move is that extra bit broken.
Sheik's bouncing fish is pretty swell, as we're all aware. Can make the axe hit come out earlier, it bounces off of shields to be safe, if it hits something it may be used again in the air, making it the only ****ing move I'm aware of in Smash history in it's class of dynamic mobility that doesn't have that draw back. I'm pretty sure it has invincibility somewhere in there too.
Sonic's side b cancels, bouncing off of stages, invincibility, jump cancels, attacks, damages, everything, Fantastic.
ZSS Down-B can go all over the place by user input, lands nearly laglessly, automatically footstools opponents in a way that roots them, kicks that kill. Oh yeah, and invincible most of the time.
Yoshi's Up-B/Egg-Toss and to an extent his side-b can be somewhat dirty.
Wario's Bike wouldn't necessarily be super versatile like others but is extremely strong by itself in that it doubles up as a projectile. Much like Villager's side b but without the drawback of death on using it for a ride and not hitting someone. Also like Bowser Jr's side-b except the cancel isn't throwing out a hard to deal with projectile :>

Bowser Jr -> Car, Doctor Mario -> Tornado, Falco -> Side B (worse than fox but can still be quite good), G&W -> Up-B (coupled with his options, kind of a stretch I know), Villager-> Side-B

The question on everyone's lips is how you're meant to deal with a lot of these?
Some obvious choices like rolls or spot dodges are by most of the listed character's standards manageable with in-built mix ups and timings. The onus still tends to be on the receiving end to deal with the move more so than the instigator using it "intelligently to avoid punishment", as even Falco's side-b (my staple example ) was baitable and not considered safe at top level Brawl with power shielding involved and the ability to out-prioritise it easily (because the move was 20 frames start up and wasn't a large disjointed hitbox itself).

 

[TriTails]

How is Falco Phantasm worse than Fox Illusion?

 

[DanGR]

During Falco's illusion, the hitbox ends ~2/3 to 3/4ths the way through the animation. Fox's has a hitbox during the entirety of the same animation.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'd put Doc's in its own tier below those other moves if you're ranking them IMO (which you did : D). It's not SAFE on shield or a safe move to throw out, but it is super high priority and can beat things. It's best used on reaction and can effectively stop people from disrespecting you.

The only thing that makes the character overall usable IMO but it's a thing, that's for sure. People don't use it enough.

 

[Antonykun]

Pikachu is kinda obscene, really starting to come out as more players start practicing with him, including those of high level.

One particular thing in the Smash4 meta thus far which reminds me of League of Legends is "mobility creep", where it has been a continuing issue where those without those mobility tools are less viable (sometimes a lot less viable) and bringing counter play to mobility is an oxymoron.

A lot of the great characters we see in this game have fast, safe, super high priority, strong horizontal (sometimes vertical) displacement specials that can be varied by user input.


Questionable:

Diddy's Side-B is funnily enough one of the most limited of the bunch but is still insanely strong. A high priority high damage attack, or the best air grab, two distances for the air dash.
Fox side-b being completely static doesn't change it's long distance, low cool down, comboability, etc but both his, Falco and Wolf's set the precedent of the high utility mobile displacement options by having the amazing three cancel options for variability. And in Melee cancelling the distance at any point as well. The fact that the space animals lost this sucked in my mind a lot, because it's not like the ability isn't seen elsewhere and isn't a "healthy" mechanic.
Luigi's down-b is quite captivating, can go across the stage or up into the skies, can be used for shield pressure or reliable for combos or kills.
Pikachu's Up-B is everything Falco's Side-B was in Brawl but in my mind twice as 'good'/effective. The length of each dash is insane, it's hitbox is large and getting hit by it combos into things. The mix up/safety/pressure of this thing is unmatched. The ending animation being a low landing is legitimately the reason this move is that extra bit broken.
Sheik's bouncing fish is pretty swell, as we're all aware. Can make the axe hit come out earlier, it bounces off of shields to be safe, if it hits something it may be used again in the air, making it the only ****ing move I'm aware of in Smash history in it's class of dynamic mobility that doesn't have that draw back. I'm pretty sure it has invincibility somewhere in there too.
Sonic's side b cancels, bouncing off of stages, invincibility, jump cancels, attacks, damages, everything, Fantastic.
ZSS Down-B can go all over the place by user input, lands nearly laglessly, automatically footstools opponents in a way that roots them, kicks that kill. Oh yeah, and invincible most of the time.
Yoshi's Up-B/Egg-Toss and to an extent his side-b can be somewhat dirty.
Wario's Bike wouldn't necessarily be super versatile like others but is extremely strong by itself in that it doubles up as a projectile. Much like Villager's side b but without the drawback of death on using it for a ride and not hitting someone. Also like Bowser Jr's side-b except the cancel isn't throwing out a hard to deal with projectile :>

Bowser Jr -> Car, Doctor Mario -> Tornado, Falco -> Side B (worse than fox but can still be quite good), G&W -> Up-B (coupled with his options, kind of a stretch I know), Villager-> Side-B

The question on everyone's lips is how you're meant to deal with a lot of these?
Some obvious choices like rolls or spot dodges are by most of the listed character's standards manageable with in-built mix ups and timings. The onus still tends to be on the receiving end to deal with the move more so than the instigator using it "intelligently to avoid punishment", as even Falco's side-b (my staple example ) was baitable and not considered safe at top level Brawl with power shielding involved and the ability to out-prioritise it easily (because the move was 20 frames start up and wasn't a large disjointed hitbox itself).

I have a question, do you mean Riding Lloyd Rocket?

 

[TriTails]

During Falco's illusion, the hitbox ends ~2/3 to 3/4ths the way through the animation. Fox's has a hitbox during the entirety the same animation.

Oh, I see. Guess they have to limit its spikes, huh? Thanks!

If I remember right, Dr. Tornado doesn't give any boost on ground mobility, which hurts Doc's... well, mobility. It doesn't go as high as Luigi Cyclone, too. And whilist Luigi Cyclone can be prevented from being punished by mashing the B button, Dr. Tornado cannot.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Oh, I see. Guess they have to limit its spikes, huh? Thanks!

If I remember right, Dr. Tornado doesn't give any boost on ground mobility, which hurts Doc's... well, mobility. It doesn't go as high as Luigi Cyclone, too. And whilist Luigi Cyclone can be prevented from being punished by mashing the B button, Dr. Tornado cannot.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Luigi Cyclone can't be punish protected. They can be hit in the same ways if ledgeguarding (projectiles, disjoint). The difference is in height and KB. Doc's is useful in more areas offensively than Luigi's thanks to how the hits connect relatively smoothly and the angle it hits at (lets Doc edgeguard with it because it has a base knockback of 80 and a knockback growth of 130(!!!) which lets it kill offstage at ludicrously low % which includes sub 90% for chars like Diddy and even sub 85% for Zelda!) Doc's Down-B is actually easier to gain height with after losing a double jump, or it WOULD be if fastfalling didn't affect its physics, but you can still get easier air from it than Cyclone.

It does not go as high as Luigi's at all though, or enhance Doc's grounded mobility, but there are very very good reasons for this if you see Doc Nado in action, haha. I'm officially convinced that if Dr. Mario had good ground movement it would probably be excessive when combined with Nado.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I do not think egg roll is a "dirty" move. Unless you mean belongs in the dumpster cause how dirty it is, then yes you're correct.