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Character Competitive Impressions

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Metal B

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Pikachu is kinda obscene, really starting to come out as more players start practicing with him, including those of high level.

One particular thing in the Smash4 meta thus far which reminds me of League of Legends is "mobility creep", where it has been a continuing issue where those without those mobility tools are less viable (sometimes a lot less viable) and bringing counter play to mobility is an oxymoron..
We can separate Characters in Smash in different archetypes: Rush-Down, Heavy-Hitter, Spacing, Zoning and Jack-Of-All-Trades.

Rush-Down Characters (your "mobility creep") are always the most hardest to balance. There whole job is to run in for damage and escape before getting hit. Since hitting is the most important part in a fighting game, there specialization of escaping can become too good and give them all the means to control the pace of the battle. Especially in a game like Smash, where there is more room to run and the ability to gimp people. The true weakness of a Rush-Down character should be its problem of power and stamina. A Rush-Down character doesn't do much damage, therefore needs more time to KO an opponent, which in return gives his opponent more opportunity to score with his stronger attacks. In Smash there should also have a harder time KOing opponents and also always be Glass-Cannons, so that every mistake of a Rush-Down Characters hurts even more.
Here also lies a big problem. If you don't do much mistakes, there downside becomes meaningless. Pro Players are very good in mastering the game as your average player. So they will less likely do enough mistakes, in which the other archetypes can profit from. Never design a character in a fighting game around "hard to control". Someone will master it and dominate the game. Melee and Brawl had already big problems with this archetype, which still dominating the landscape. PM solved the problem for it by making every character a Semi-Rush-Down-Character, which in returns means giving up on the other archetypes.

In solving the problem for real, Smash 4 actually expend in some attack-types: Invincible Frames, Heavy and Super Armor. Trading damage for an successful hit is a great way to counter a Rush-Down-Character. The weak damage output of them almost always gives the armor-user the better deal. But in my opinion the developers of SSB4 properly didn't go far enough. Characters like Bowser, Ganondorf, Ike, Dedede and Charizard should have even more attacks of those types. In return Rush-Down-Character should get less to no disjointed hitboxes to increase the chance of failure and successful counters. Another way to create more disadvantages for Rush-Down-Characters, is to increase the shield-damage or the lasting effects. The archetype should be afraid in using them to often and instead have to mainly rely on there evading options.

One big problems is the missing of another fighting-game archetype: the Grappler. In Smash Bros there were only unintentional Grappler so far (Of course, i mean the Ice Climbers and King Dedede in Brawl). Grappler can be a natural counter to Rush-Down-Characters, since they all about not letting the opponent escape. But the classic Grappler don't work in Smash, since there is too much room to escape and the game is about smashing, not grabbing your opponent for a KO. In Smash Grappler need to work differently and Bowser, Ike, Ganondorf, Dedede, Donkey Kong and Charizard come close to this. They have big, lasting hitboxes with a lot of range and power. There goal should be to shutting down any room to escape, so that the opponent is trapped near the edge of a stage. Trying to escape, means walking into the strong attacks of a Grappler. In contrast to Spacing-Characters, which try to hit with mid-range attacks and pokes, Grappler play with fear and increasing the chance of mistakes. So that a there is an increased chance of there very strong and slow attacks to hit.

But why isn't this effect enough right now? Either people didn't work out the tactic and are not used to play the way, the supposedly Grappler-characters don't have enough tool to work with (more attacks with Invincible Frames, Heavy and Super Armor for example), other mechanics are in the way (properly rolling or mutli-air-doges ) or the Rush-Down are unbalanced (possible too much Grab-Range or Escape-Tools).
 
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Terotrous

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When is a situation to use Bair over fair? Off of throws.
Preserving freshness for Fair?

I think there are also situations where you can get Dthrow -> Uair -> Bair where Fair might not connect.


L-canceling from what I remember before this video and thread was that you air dodged before landing or something to lessen the landing lag. It was also something that was only in Melee, but I heard about it being in use in SSB4, but I'm not sure.
How L-Cancel works is that you press Shield within 10 frames of landing with your aerial and its landing lag will be cut by half. So if your move had 12 frame landing lag, you would instead have only 6 frames. Note that L-Cancelling does not override autocancelling, so if you land past your aerial's autocancel frame, you get instant recovery regardless of whether you press Shield or not.

Obviously, the main use of L-Cancelling is that it makes air to ground attacks safer against retaliation. In Melee, where autocancel windows are not very generous, this is often the only way to be safe. In this game, though, autocancel frames are all over the place so as long as you do your aerial at the right height you can get a similar effect.

In this case, it's looks like what's happening is that the character is landing during the "freeze frames" that certain (usually sweetspotted) attacks have, which appears to cancel landing lag. Freeze frames basically cause the game to pause for a moment when an attack lands, so you can say "Ohhh!" or something like that.

Some other examples of aerials that might be worth trying out for this are:

Zelda Bair / Fair / Dair
Ness Bair
Olimar's Yellow Pikmin aerials


There's probably others but I'm drawing a blank right now.

Incidentally, I think this is the same reason that Bowser Jr Dair has no landing lag if it hits successfully, as it also has freeze frames.
 
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Thinkaman

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Incidentally, I think this is the same reason that Bowser Jr Dair has no landing lag if it hits successfully, as it also has freeze frames.
I dunno, the math doesn't add up. That dair is supposed to have 25 frames of endlag. It has a high hitlag ratio, but nothing that would explain that length, for a 2% hitbox?

I tried it with Pikachu dair and Bowser Jr. fair landing hitboxes. They both experience a very small speed up on hit, nothing truly comparable.
 

Terotrous

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I dunno, the math doesn't add up. That dair is supposed to have 25 frames of endlag. It has a high hitlag ratio, but nothing that would explain that length, for a 2% hitbox?
What I think is happening is that if you hit with an attack and land during the freeze frames, as soon as the freeze is over you can act immediately.

That appears to be what's happening in the Falco and Falcon examples from what my eyes can determine, anyway.


But yeah, it's worth trying with other aerials that have similar freezes to see if they get the same benefit.
 
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Thinkaman

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I mean, it seems like it is just considering you as "landed" and counting the frames spent in hitlag towards landing lag time. This is super obvious in slow motion on the WiiU, where you can clearly see the character begin the landing animation during the hitlag.

Landing hitbox moves seem to be effected, but the total hitlag on these tiny hitboxes is so low that the difference is very small. Unless you look carefully, the difference with Pikachu dair or Bowser Jr. fair isn't noticeable. But for some reason Bowser Jr. dair skips around 20 frames. (Note that it still has SOME, just very little)
 
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David Viran

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I always wondered why sometimes zss's nair follow ups were easier. It does that lag cancel. Nair to up b is looking a lot more plausible now.
 

mimgrim

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L-canceling from what I remember before this video and thread was that you air dodged before landing or something to lessen the landing lag. It was also something that was only in Melee, but I heard about it being in use in SSB4, but I'm not sure.
L-cancel was in Melee and Smash 64 (known as Z-cancel in Smash 64), and Project M of course, and is the act of pressing the shield or grab button before landing (about a 7 frame window before landing for Melee and an 11 frame window in 64) so as to reduce landing lag in half (or reduce all landing lag to 4 frames in 64). The official name given by Sakurai and co is "Smooth Landing".
 

Terotrous

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I mean, it seems like it is just considering you as "landed" and counting the frames spent in hitlag towards landing lag time.
Oh, okay, that could also be right. This would still be quite useful for Olimar as his Yellow Pikmin have ridiculous hitlag.

Oh, another person who has hitlag on his aerials is Marth, with his tippered hits. Not sure if he'd be able to follow up, though.
 
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Asdioh

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One particular thing in the Smash4 meta thus far which reminds me of League of Legends is "mobility creep", where it has been a continuing issue where those without those mobility tools are less viable (sometimes a lot less viable) and bringing counter play to mobility is an oxymoron.

A lot of the great characters we see in this game have fast, safe, super high priority, strong horizontal (sometimes vertical) displacement specials that can be varied by user input.
Simple explanation for why Kirby isn't a "good" character/Simple explanation for why why Jumping Inhale and Upper Cutter are unquestionably his best custom specials!


Sonic's side b cancels, bouncing off of stages, invincibility, jump cancels, attacks, damages, everything, Fantastic. Broken.
Fixed
pls nerf Sakurai
 

TTTTTsd

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To elaborate more on my post about Cyclone vs. Doc Tornado and what I said about it being an potent edgeguarding move as well, a good pal did some testing and posted his findings in the Doc Social thread.

Bit of testing here.

Looks like Doc Nado can kill Bowser, the heaviest character in the game, at roughly 70% as an edgeguard, and Doc can easily recover back to the stage with just his second jump.

70%, no rage, on the heaviest character in the game.

Let that sink in.
I'm astounded. Apparently my numbers (90% for midweights) was an overestimate, my apologies. I just...what lol. I really think this move is what makes this character. Words simply elude me. A move with that much active frames and the ability to chase DI having a final hit so potent it can do that, along with its confirmed really strong priority.....
 
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HeroMystic

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I will note my test does not include DI, which will obviously be a factor, but yes, Doc's Nado is very potent as an egdeguard. Every character will have to recover very high or very low if they don't want to be tangled into it.
 

TTTTTsd

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I also attribute the edgeguard strength of the Doc Nado not just to its KB and KBG stat, but its angle of 45 degrees is really good for horizontally KOing and edgeguarding.
 

Asdioh

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One particular thing in the Smash4 meta thus far which reminds me of League of Legends is "mobility creep", where it has been a continuing issue where those without those mobility tools are less viable (sometimes a lot less viable) and bringing counter play to mobility is an oxymoron.
Sorry to go back to this, but I remembered something. The devs made a smart choice with certain new moves in this game, namely Palutena's Lightweight and Super Speed. They're both amazing moves, but the devs intentionally gave them cooldowns, so they couldn't be spammed. The reason stuff like Sonic's Spindash is so toxic is because it has no cooldown, so it's a spammable low risk-high reward move. It just seems kinda strange that they would make the right choice in some regards, but completely skip over moves that function similarly. Presumably Pikachu's Quick Attack has the same problem, but that move's a recovery so it's harder to justify giving it a cooldown. If it was more blatantly problematic during testing, they probably would have given it more endlag, like Lucario's Extremespeed.

I'm sure there are other hidden cooldown moves that I can't think of right now. Robin's limited use books/sword are kind of a similar concept, but he doesn't have superfast hard to punish speed moves. When Kirby copies Rosalina's power, his Luma projectile has a hidden cooldown, you can't cast it for a specific number of seconds after using it. I dunno what else, but yeah.
 

A2ZOMG

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So, what I'm getting at is Smash 4 has glitches with how aerial landing lag works (probably hitlag related) when you connect with at least certain moves and land on what appears to be the first frame possible.

I've definitely noticed strange stuff when connecting Ganondorf's D-air, when it will randomly register a combo into U-smash in some cases like it did in previous games.

Hypothesis: Landing lag frames run during hitlag. I would assume this is unintended and would likely get patched out if that is true.
 
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meleebrawler

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Sorry to go back to this, but I remembered something. The devs made a smart choice with certain new moves in this game, namely Palutena's Lightweight and Super Speed. They're both amazing moves, but the devs intentionally gave them cooldowns, so they couldn't be spammed. The reason stuff like Sonic's Spindash is so toxic is because it has no cooldown, so it's a spammable low risk-high reward move. It just seems kinda strange that they would make the right choice in some regards, but completely skip over moves that function similarly. Presumably Pikachu's Quick Attack has the same problem, but that move's a recovery so it's harder to justify giving it a cooldown. If it was more blatantly problematic during testing, they probably would have given it more endlag, like Lucario's Extremespeed.

I'm sure there are other hidden cooldown moves that I can't think of right now. Robin's limited use books/sword are kind of a similar concept, but he doesn't have superfast hard to punish speed moves. When Kirby copies Rosalina's power, his Luma projectile has a hidden cooldown, you can't cast it for a specific number of seconds after using it. I dunno what else, but yeah.
Well, you can't grab someone while spin dashing. Plus it's actually more of a commitment than some other
similar moves since it can only be stopped by jumping once you start moving. Plus jumping out of it is the
only way to get good followups from it, and jumping happens to be the least safe option up close. Anything he
does out of a spin dash jump can be punished. Nair? Shielded. Homing Attack? Sidestepped. Spring Jump?
He has to Dair from up high to get back to the ground quickly, which can be followed.

Really, Spin Dash on it's own isn't as broken as people make it out to be. It's Sonic's natural
foot speed and propensity for running grabs (coupled with a fairly lethal Bthrow) that makes the move
threatening.
 

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What makes Sheik better than Diddy anyways, I really can't say much since Sheik counters Yoshi, so need to see the point of view from other characters.
 

Terotrous

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I'm honestly not convinced that Sheik is as good as Diddy. Yes, her neutral game is probably better, but Diddy just gets such ridiculous reward every time he touches you, and his neutral game is still plenty solid.
 

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Yes, her neutral game is probably better
That is an incredible understatement.

Just do a search for "Sheik" in this thread and you'll find at least 10 posts explaining why she's up there with Diddy.

My personal opinion is that Diddy is going to fall down in high levels a little bit once people learn how to DI his dthrow stuff better. At low %'s, a lot of people are so scared of Dthrow>UAir that they're taking dthrow>Fair or Dthrow>Bair>BAir which are more damaging strings. He's still strong, don't get me wrong, his damage output is absurd and monkey flip is amazing but Sheik is... well, just do some homework and you'll find out.
 

Terotrous

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Oh, I know how nasty Sheik is, I've seen a lot of Denti and I play Yoshi so Sheik is one of his scariest matchups. Still, I think people are underrating Diddy's neutral game a bit. He's not just 100% down throw up air. That option is so powerful that right now it's centralizing his gameplay, but he's got a number of other fairly solid options that people will start using if people ever start to escape the down throw chains.
 

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Well, Super armor/etc moves are good for the purpose of dealing with mobility moves.
Another option is a counter move (Marth, Ike, Mac, etc), where these moves are stated as "use when opponents are being aggressive" yet every one of them loses to this moves when they counter them due to their range, automatic bounces or not suffering hit lag (some recovery moves I believe).
 
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Locke 06

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Oh, I know how nasty Sheik is, I've seen a lot of Denti and I play Yoshi so Sheik is one of his scariest matchups. Still, I think people are underrating Diddy's neutral game a bit. He's not just 100% down throw up air. That option is so powerful that right now it's centralizing his gameplay, but he's got a number of other fairly solid options that people will start using if people ever start to escape the down throw chains.
My personal opinion is that Diddy is going to fall down in high levels a little bit once people learn how to DI his dthrow stuff better. At low %'s, a lot of people are so scared of Dthrow>UAir that they're taking dthrow>Fair or Dthrow>Bair>BAir which are more damaging strings.
Monkey flip is absurd as is his ground mobility. FAir is safe on block. Bananas are bananas. Dtilt pressure is great. Fsmash is one of the better ones in the game and UAir is amazing outside of dthrow combos too.

Give him Kirby's grab & throws and he'd still be a solid character. Not great, but definitely solid. Now give him back Diddy's grabs/throws and he's great. Don't forget that outside of dthrow>UAir, fthrow/bthrow kill at high %'s when dthrow followups are no longer guaranteed.

But then compare that to Sheik.
 

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Well, Super armor/etc moves are good for the purpose of dealing with mobility moves.
Another option is a counter move (Marth, Ike, Mac, etc), where these moves are stated as "use when opponents are being aggressive" yet every one of them loses to this moves when they counter them due to their range, automatic bounces or not suffering hit lag (some recovery moves I believe).
Or just not safe... Little Mac's Slip Counter can send him off-stage, Lucario's Double Team and Shulk's Vision can be nicked to make them fly off into another direction, and Greninja's Substitute can be hit while Greninja's in the middle of countering.

The safest counters are Counter which freezes the attack rather than slowing them down or whatever Greninja does. Technically, Little Mac's should be safe, but he flies lunges through unlike hitting while in place like Ike, Palutena, Marth, Roy, and Lucina. If Little Mac's Slip Counter was more realistic, then he would slip the hit and counter hard usually with several strong hits like kidney, liver, and head shots while moving to the side or something instead of lunging off to the distance, but whatever.
 

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It also works with Falcon's dair in a bit different way. He hits the ground during smash stun, making it 3 frames instead of 11 and effectively reducing landing lag on it.

E: That may be how it always works though.
I watched this over and over and I realized that he has to land with the hitbox still active. I've seen this be done with falco but can he also do this with robin? I'm surprised i've yet to see him being mentioned.

Then again, you're not really going to dair with robin point blank anyway but you know, extra candy to the smash basket?
 

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But then compare that to Sheik.
I think it compares about as well as anyone else could hope to.

Diddy does definitely have a few advantages over Sheik. He's heavier, he kills earlier, and of course his throw followups are quite a bit better. Shiek's peerless neutral game comes at a price, whereas I wouldn't say Diddy really has many notable weaknesses outside his okay but not fantastic recovery.

We'll see what happens at Apex, but my gut feeling is still that Diddy is #1.
 
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Ffamran

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I watched this over and over and I realized that he has to land with the hitbox still active. I've seen this be done with falco but can he also do this with robin? I'm surprised i've yet to see him being mentioned.

Then again, you're not really going to dair with robin point blank anyway but you know, extra candy to the smash basket?
It's like a good read and punish thing rather than a common combo, technique, etc. I think they're testing Robin's out - I remember it being mentioned -, so check out the Frame Cancel thread by Izaw: http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-cancel.386639/.
 

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I think it compares about as well as anyone else could hope to.

Diddy does definitely have a few advantages over Sheik. He's heavier, he kills earlier, and of course his throw followups are quite a bit better. Shiek's peerless neutral game comes at a price, whereas I wouldn't say Diddy really has many notable weaknesses outside his okay but not fantastic recovery.
Bolded the important words in terms of why Sheik is as good as, if not better than, Diddy.

Diddy's <insert choice synonym of bad> air speed comes to mind as a notable weakness. As does his poor projectile game vs other projectile games. (Peanuts lose to every attack in the game that isn't transcendent. Crash bombs, which, I think, are treated as 0% projectiles, go through peanuts. Meanwhile, bananas must be prepped and clash with/lose to all projectiles.)
 

Terotrous

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Bolded the important words in terms of why Sheik is as good as, if not better than, Diddy.
Sheik wins neutral. That's just what she does. However, she has to, because she kills late and gets killed early. If she is not pulling a significant lead in the damage race she'll lose.


As does his poor projectile game vs other projectile games. (Peanuts lose to every attack in the game that isn't transcendent.
Eh, the ability to clank other projectiles isn't really that essential, particularly when your projectiles are very versatile in their application or confer large advantage on hit, as Peanuts and Bananas do, respectively.

And besides, even if Diddy is fighting a character who clearly beats him at range, he has good approaching tools and can really put the hurt on when he gets close. He's not reliant on his projectiles, they're just another thing in his bag of tricks.
 

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Between FAir, BAir, DTilt and bananas, even Diddy's defensive game is very strong. If you respect Diddy too much, you're prone to his mixups. If you try to rush him down, Diddy has the abovementioned moves to wall your approach.

Why Diddy's FAir can be auto cancelled with SHFF, is safe on block, deals 12%, has generous hitbox, 6 frames start-up and even above average killing power is beyond me.
 

Ffamran

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What kind of monkey is Diddy anyway? He must be some type of monkey who's great in the air or something... Aren't those spider monkeys?
 

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On a side note, Diddy's neutral is also more rewarding than Sheiks. Grounded UAirs taking stocks in the neutral are becoming such a common occurrence nowdays.

What kind of monkey is Diddy anyway? He must be some type of monkey who's great in the air or something... Aren't those spider monkeys?
 
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mimgrim

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When are we going to stop with the misconceptions that Sheik has a hard time killing? >_>

What kind of monkey is Diddy anyway? He must be some type of monkey who's great in the air or something... Aren't those spider monkeys?
I believe he is suppose to be a spider monkey.
 

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When are we going to stop with the misconceptions that Sheik has a hard time killing? >_>
"Hard" isn't really the right word. It's not hard to land her kill moves. They just need a fairly high percent to kill.
 

Ffamran

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When are we going to stop with the misconceptions that Sheik has a hard time killing? >_>



I believe he is suppose to be a spider monkey.
Well, that explains why the monkey is so good in the air and it might explain his long limbs... Hmm...
 

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"Hard" isn't really the right word. It's not hard to land her kill moves. They just need a fairly high percent to kill.
Thing is, with Sheik it is not hard at all to get kills. She does not even use her kill moves to kill, because her combos can literally take you from the center of the stage to near the blast zone on most stages. Even if her combos don't kill you, they will send to far off to recover for most.
 

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Thing is, with Sheik it is not hard at all to get kills. She does not even use her kill moves to kill, because her combos can literally take you from the center of the stage to near the blast zone on most stages. Even if her combos don't kill you, they will send to far off to recover for most.
This is only if you panic and use your midair jump while she's still hitting you (except Little Mac obviously).
 

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How much would Diddy Kong and Sheik suffer if they didn't have their respective horizontal movement specials?
 

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Depends. Does Sheik get that kill power reallocated elsewhere, such that her kit only has a net loss of mobility?

And does Diddy get his disproportionate damage reward allocated elsewhere too? What about recovery power? This is getting messy, when you dissect it this sort of becomes a complicated and useless hypothetical...


Aside:

I can think of a half dozen reasonable ways to nerf Diddy Kong, way more than he needs.

I have no idea what I'd do to Sheik. Like, sure, you could nerf any of her 30 moves in a dozen different ways (like anyone)--but I'm saying I am not sure what is reasonable or effective to change. I see Sheik as a tightly built machine where it seems like everything is just vaguely too good. Nerfing fair or further nerfing Bouncing Fish would impact her a lot, but I don't want to do either of those things.
 
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