Character Competitive Impressions

[DanGR]

In my last tier list I ordered characters based on how likely I think it is for them to win a national tournament. My opinions on many characters have changed, and I've decided to go with a slightly different format this time. This one is more in line with the traditional style tier list which orders characters based on how well they deal the few, more centralizing characters. However, do note that currently character representation is skewed towards easier & "fun" characters. (Diddy and Captain Falcon, calm down please.) This list is based on how I view the characters' viability in a theoretical environment where tournament representation parallels character viability.

I'm not comfortable placing Luigi, Villager, DHD, Peach, Bowser, Lucario, Pac-Man, or Mii-Gunner. Between my last list and now I've placed Mario, Wario, Ike, and ZSS.

----------------------------------------------
-A Tier- ("Centralizing")


-B Tier- ("Viable")
//

-C Tier- ("Counterpicks")
(It gets muddy at this point)

(Maybe a few more)

-D Tier- ("Not very viable")
The rest of the cast.
----------------------------------------------

A Tier ("Centralizing"): These 3 are a step above the rest. Sheik, Diddy, and Pikachu are most likely to win tournaments because they have the option pool and matchup spread players need in order to perform well consistently. Naturally, these characters' matchups decide further viability via ripple effect.

B Tier ("Viable"): In this theoretical environment where tournament representation parallels character viability, a character needs to have at least a decent matchup spread against A-tier, and a formidable matchup spread across the rest of B-tier for me to consider them viable.

C Tier ("Counterpicks"): These guys have decent matchups against the B-tier characters. They might perform better against an A-tier character and some B-tier characters than some of the B-tier characters, but they've got flaws that make them too inconsistent to be used exclusively. They're better off as pocket secondaries, if anything.

I'll answer questions about my list.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Would you say that, in theory, anyone in the D tier could be used with secondaries of higher tiers in mind in case a switch is required?

Also where's Luigi in the viable section given he literally won BEAST 5. Just figured it's worth mentioning. I know you're not comfortable placing him but, I feel like he's earned a spot in at least C going by your list requirements. I think he's solid foundation wise if you pack good secondaries or use him on the side if 100% required.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Who does shulk and greninja beat in B tier?

 

[DanGR]

Would you say that, in theory, anyone in the D tier could be used with secondaries of higher tiers in mind in case a switch is required?

Also where's Luigi in the viable section given he literally won BEAST 5. Just figured it's worth mentioning. I know you're not comfortable placing him but, I feel like he's earned a spot in at least C going by your list requirements. I think he's solid foundation wise if you pack good secondaries or use him on the side if 100% required.

Yeah, you could use some of them against A or B tier characters as counterpicks, but there are other, much better counterpick options who you don't have to work as hard with for the same reward.

I put Luigi in the list of characters I'm not yet comfortable placing. He's somewhere in B-tier, imo.

Who does shulk and greninja beat in B tier?

I didn't say the C-tier characters all beat A or B tier characters. I said that one or two of their matchups against A/B-tier characters are better than B-tier characters' matchups.

To answer a similar question:
Greninja does better than at least a few characters in B-tier against Pikachu.
Shulk is very underrepresented right now, but he almost certainly does better against Rosalina than Luigi. (who I didn't place, but I would put him probably somewhere near the bottom of B-tier right now if I had to.)

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

edit: one sec


I didn't say the C-tier characters all beat A or B tier characters. I said that one or two of their matchups against A/B-tier characters are better than B-tier characters' matchups.

To answer a similar question:
Greninja does better than at least a few characters in B-tier against Pikachu.
Shulk is very underrepresented right now, but he almost certainly does better against Rosalina than Luigi. (who I didn't place, but I would put him probably somewhere near the bottom of B-tier right now if I had to.)

If they're CP characters in your mind I want to know who they CP. I never said you claimed that they beat everyone in A or B tier. I wanted to know who you felt they countered. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like they real counters.

 

[Freezie KO]

Would you say that, in theory, anyone in the D tier could be used with secondaries of higher tiers in mind in case a switch is required?

Also where's Luigi in the viable section given he literally won BEAST 5. Just figured it's worth mentioning. I know you're not comfortable placing him but, I feel like he's earned a spot in at least C going by your list requirements. I think he's solid foundation wise if you pack good secondaries or use him on the side if 100% required.

Prior to this weekend, I would put Luigi maybe at the bottom of top 10 or solidly top 15. To be honest though, we should consider that Luigi just won BEAST 5. And Anti used Luigi to take a game off ZeRo in Grand Finals at the Clash Invitational online tourney on the same day.

Maybe it's time to revise my own and many others' beliefs about Luigi. He could end up being top 5.

What's weird is that Luigi is seen as an underdog, but his main way of building damage is the same as Diddy. Luigi's dthrow combos into multiple fairs and nair. Nair can even KO. You can even land an up-B shoryuken off dthrow.

Also while Luigi may not have banana, the green fireball is a useful projectile. Luigi's recovery can get him back to the stage very well if you've ever seen Mr. CC/ Mr. Con Con play Luigi. The combination of green missile, tornado, and up-B can bring him back from far out. Also, the tornado has downright evil gimp potential if you just touch an offstage opponent with Luigi's lower half of his body.

Given the results and the current meta, I see Luigi rising. I'm also curious to see if there could be an anti-Luigi backlash (in Twitch chats mostly) given the huge damage his down-throw combos rack up, which is exactly what Diddy gets criticism for.

 

[DanGR]

If they're CP characters in your mind I want to know who they CP. I never said you claimed that they beat everyone in A or B tier. I wanted to know who you felt they countered. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like they real counters.

There's a difference between countering a character and being effective as a pocket secondary. The latter is the distinction I've made between them and the rest of the cast below them.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

There's a difference between countering a character and being effective as a pocket secondary. The latter is the distinction I've made between them and the rest of the cast below them.

They will still need the winning MU vs the tops to be effective. If not win then at least be even. So that's why I asked you left a couple of characters off that's pretty good. But oh well.

 

[HeroMystic]

Given the results and the current meta, I see Luigi rising. I'm also curious to see if there could be an anti-Luigi backlash (in Twitch chats mostly) given the huge damage his down-throw combos rack up, which is exactly what Diddy gets criticism for.

Diddy is a dirty monkey. Luigi is a Mario Bro with a sexy stache.

 

[meleebrawler]

Diddy is a dirty monkey. Luigi is a Mario Bro with a sexy stache.

Also Luigi Dthrow combos with style. Maybe he'll
just give you a few quick smacks of Fair or Uair.
Maybe he'll push you higher into the air with Nair.
Or he'll bounce you off the ground with Dair, or
perhaps catch your panic dodging with Usmash.
Finally, for maximum ***iness, a midair Fire Jump
Punch.

 

[Nobie]

I Mega Man has average recovery and mobility.

I know you're mainly discussing whether these characters can take on the top tier, but I do want to question labeling Mega Man's mobility as "average." I'll agree on recovery, but Mega Man basically has one poor mobility stat in his run speed, while being a fair amount above average in just about everything else movement-related.

He's Top 10 in horizontal air speed, which puts him above Sheik.

He's Top 10 in fall speed, which can go either way depending on what kind of mobility you're looking for.

He can double jump out of his Up B if you store it, which gives him an extra option no other character has.

Most importantly, he has an absurdly high ability to weave in and out, and his jumps are such that he can almost stop on a dime. So far there's not been any sort of proper chart or way to measure this ability to quickly change directions in mid-air, but it's something that Mega Man excels in, and something that he has to take into account in any matchup.

In terms of fighting Sheik and Diddy, I see most Mega Men consider Sheik a difficult, maybe even frustrating matchup, but Diddy a manageable one because of that aerial mobility combined with his zoning game. Diddy is one of the slowest characters in the air when not counting Monkey Flip, and that attack can be stymied by effective lemon usage.

 

[Freezie KO]

Diddy is a dirty monkey. Luigi is a Mario Bro with a sexy stache.

This is true. Can't argue with that.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Prior to this weekend, I would put Luigi maybe at the bottom of top 10 or solidly top 15. To be honest though, we should consider that Luigi just won BEAST 5. And Anti used Luigi to take a game off ZeRo in Grand Finals at the Clash Invitational online tourney on the same day.

Eh.
When Will went ape **** on everybody at TCU no one started throwing DK top 15.
So if you're a monkey everyone discredits your wins?

 

[Smog Frog]

just popping in to say that a/b/c structure really rustles my jimmies, i prefer s/a/b format

 

[Freezie KO]

Eh.
When Will went ape **** on everybody at TCU no one started throwing DK top 15.
So if you're a monkey everyone discredits your wins?

"ape ****"? Pun intended?

 

[webbedspace]

Diddy is a dirty monkey. Luigi is a Mario Bro with a sexy stache.

I feel like a lot of anti-Diddy vitriol has to do with the fact that his up-air just doesn't "look" correct. Not just that it's narrow, but that Diddy's limbs appear too scrawny, and it makes the wrong hit sound, to "deserve" to be a prime KO move. Maybe if it had a cosmetic flame or electric effect, or a dramatic pause when sweet-spotted, or Diddy wore a sized-down Upperdash Arm, people would be more inclined to say "fair enough" when it KOs from a short hop at 97% or w/e.
I mean, it'd still be perceived as broken, but it'd be a less glaring kind of broken.

 

[Thinkaman]

To be blunt, I think all tier labels that aren't statistically derived are complete bullcrap. (And letter-grade ones tend to be the most misleading.)

I feel like a lot of anti-Diddy vitriol has to do with the fact that his up-air just doesn't "look" correct. Not just that it's narrow, but that Diddy's limbs appear too scrawny, and it makes the wrong hit sound, to "deserve" to be a prime KO move. Maybe if it had a cosmetic flame or electric effect, or a dramatic pause when sweet-spotted, or Diddy wore a sized-down Upperdash Arm, people would be more inclined to say "fair enough" when it KOs from a short hop at 97% or w/e.
I mean, it'd still be perceived as broken, but it'd be a less glaring kind of broken.

Yeah. No one complains to this extent about the completely asinine ZSS up-b, but it LOOKS absolutely visceral.

(And Diddy is almost certainly better than ZSS, but she's by no means low tier and we can complain about moves in a vacuum regardless.)

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Not that I've looked into it extensively, but it still comes into play with monado arts. Smash stance Power Vision countering a Bob-omb has less knockback against a 0% opponent than stanceless does.

Also what ChronoPenguin said.

I think Smash does something to KBG either in the damage formula or adds a value to his KBG values while in smash stance.

 

[TriTails]

Given the results and the current meta, I see Luigi rising. I'm also curious to see if there could be an anti-Luigi backlash (in Twitch chats mostly) given the huge damage his down-throw combos rack up, which is exactly what Diddy gets criticism for.

Diddy's D-throw sets up his U-air, which happens to be one of the most unfair KO moves ever.

Luigi's D-throw sets up lots of his attacks, but they don't kill as early as Diddy's U-air. Even the most powerful one, FJP, requires some great dang skills to get it right, and you are free for attacks for another 4 seconds if you whiffs.

And doesn't Sheik's combos deal crazy damage as well? Dunno, but is that right?

 

[HeroMystic]

And doesn't Sheik's combos deal crazy damage as well? Dunno, but is that right?

I'm fairly confident the combos aren't as strong as Luigi's, but hers have the added benefit of carrying you off the stage.

Prior to this weekend, I would put Luigi maybe at the bottom of top 10 or solidly top 15. To be honest though, we should consider that Luigi just won BEAST 5. And Anti used Luigi to take a game off ZeRo in Grand Finals at the Clash Invitational online tourney on the same day.

Maybe it's time to revise my own and many others' beliefs about Luigi. He could end up being top 5.

More serious reply now that I've watched BEAST5.

Like always, we have to account for player skill when associated with character strength. J.Miller was getting stomped by Diddys until he adapted to each one and brought it back every time. This is because the Diddy players failed to adapt when Miller's Luigi adapted. This isn't to say those Diddys are bad, but Miller came out on top.

When Cyne switched to Sheik for the second set, Miller was having a difficult time. I feel Cyne botched his tournament win by SDing on Halberd and he had a pretty solid advantage, which allowed Miller to regain momentum for the final match.

Overall, I would say Luigi still has difficulty taking on Diddy and Shiek, and he won't be the savior character that handily destroys them. However, Beast 5 definitely confirms that Luigi is a character worth investing into. He'd still be on my Top 15 list. Definitely not Top 5, probably not Top 10, but being Top 15 means you can win a tournament in my book.

 

[Thinkaman]

I mean, it's all relative. Being top 15 in Melee or Super Turbo doesn't mean much.

It's not roster ratio either; being top 15 in MvC2 doesn't mean much either.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm just finally enjoying Dr. Mario again. After taking the advice and discussion @M@v gave in this thread, I can safely say Doc's Down-B is what keeps him alive. A lot of people don't use it so you don't see it a lot, but it is a SERIOUSLY GOOD MOVE.

I'd usually relegate it to recovery but my god, it does so much more in this game. It's not a primarily recovery based tool anymore IMO, certainly not the Nado of old. You can outprioritize a ton of options with it, you can EDGEGUARD HIGH with it (with its absurd priority, ability to follow DI, and how long it's out being able to punish an airdodge pretty easily) and it's a good move on-stage.

I'd like to see more use of it cause I think it's what makes Doc playable now IMO. Now that I've started using it I get a lot more out of the character.

P.S. He's still not an incredibly good character but I don't think he's any worse than below average from my experience now having incorporated Down-B into my arsenal properly. I still think he definitely needs secondaries to even consider maining or using.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, in several matchups, you can definitely use Doc Down-B to force people to play more carefully against you, which lets you have more breathing room. I don't always like the risk/reward of the move because the damage can be underwhelming, but sometimes it's a great option for covering dodges and beating certain moves without working hard.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It's just so weird, the move was basically useless on stage in other Smash games and now all of a sudden it's good? For reasons I can't comprehend (I don't know why it has the priority it has, that's just STRANGE) and because of SDI being non-existent + multi-hit suction. And the fact that they gave it some form of offstage kill power even?

I'm so glad I listened. The character is still lacking and he's still not very good but I think this propels him far from the worst now having figured this move out. I can understand why people would miss it given what you used Nado for before.

P.S. Wario is really good and I don't think he loses or comes close to losing to anything besides disjoint (I despise the Mii Gunner vs. Wario matchup, UGH)

 

[A2ZOMG]

In Melee, there were a lot more things that had lingering hitboxes with slight disjoints that were better than what the Tornado offered. Plus you couldn't move as much with the Tornado in that game and it was easily CCed, though it WAS a viable if very situational platform pressure tool.

Tornado was good in 64 for edgeguarding, but way harder to pull off than D-air. I mean...it wasn't awful in 64.

I currently believe someone like Ganondorf beats Wario 55/45 in this game. He has to play super respectfully against Ganondorf's range, and Ganondorf has multiple good ways of confirming KOs against him including edgeguarding and Flame Choke.

 

[Terotrous]

Geez you guys post too much on the weekend. How am I supposed to respond to all of this?

We had a really good Yoshi appear in our scene. I could only beat him with Little Mac (!), Ness, Sheik, and Charizard (!!!).

Little Mac - Eggs do a mediocre job at stuffing fast ground approaches, which is why Sonic probably does better than decent against Yoshi. Beyond that, it's basically like playing Sheik with all the chips on the table: Your moveset is faster, you have the run speed to punish, and you have an answer for everything. But if you get hit once, it's basically a stock, and if you get Yoshi, it hurts 3x as much as Sheik. Being able to actually kill Yoshi is a big deal.

Note that I said from the beginning that this matchup was in Mac's favour but everyone said I was crazy.

Granted, I no longer think it is post-1.0.4. The nerf to Mac's recovery makes it way easier for Yoshi to gimp him. It's probably 5-5 now, but it's definitely not an "easy" matchup to play since if you screw up even once against Mac you're dead.

>really good Yoshi
>could beat him with characters you dont play

Then he wasnt a really good Yoshi lol

I immediately had this impression as well. If it was Diddy that would be one thing (anyone can play Diddy super well, in addition to being absurdly strong he's also super basic), but it's not like you can just pick up Zard and be good with him. He must not have known that matchup.

I did like 100 pages ago, typed up an essay on why I thought she was lackluster. Dont feel like going into it again cuz Im leaving in like 10 mins and mostly cuz Im lazy lol.

EDIT: Did a quick thread search and found it, its here: http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-189#post-18140122

I dunno, while I do agree with what you said about how Samus can't control the match since she lacks strong options at any range, I feel that Mii Swordfighter is even worse in that regard.

I do think Samus needs to be fixed a bit. I would place a lot of the blame on her missiles, which are just terrible in this game. Obviously junk like her UpSmash and Jabs not linking properly also needs fixing.

Safety IS static. I'm talking about a move when spaced well on block CANNOT be punished due to either shield pushback, really good frame data or a combination of both. This is not very hard criteria to test moves against.

Anything around 12 frames of landing recovery is fairly safe, but that depends how much range it has.

It's still very character dependent. The only moves which are truly safe are those which have more shieldstun than recovery, as no one can punish those. Any move which is minus is potentially punishable by some of the cast, with the most common threats being Dolphin Slash and Whirling Fortress.

This little weird thought popped into my head, but what if an early "tier" list consisted of only three "tiers". The reason tier is in quotations is that it would be more like sections instead of actual tiers. So, the first section would be like "very viable", followed by "generally viable", and finally " viable".

What about characters who aren't really viable?

Despite it being early in the game's meta, there's really not a lot of evidence for the viability of some of the very low end characters.

I think the more important question is "Is Lucina even notably better than tipperless Marth?"

Honestly I don't think she is. A tiny bit of bonus damage is not worth lesser safety. Fix that crap Sakurai.

It's just so weird, the move was basically useless on stage in other Smash games and now all of a sudden it's good?

This is true of a ton of moves in this game.

 

[TTTTTsd]

This is true of a ton of moves in this game.

I know this much but it's like, really strange for a move like this. I guess not having SDI and multihits being better + KB buffs and the move coming out mad fast helps. Still, I'm quite happy with how it turned out, it helps Doc so much. It does become an issue if you're too reliant on it but if you're smart you should be able to make great use of it.

The fact that it beats stuff like Sonic's spindashes means a lot for that MU.

 

[Conda]

Earlier in this thread I indicated that a character is clearly quite formidable and will likely remain so if they can make it through a tournament without needing to rely on counterpicks. This game, like many fighting games, is counterpick-heavy. You usually can't rely on one character due to the variety of character archetypes, traits, and abilities. But there are some characters that can be used without feeling the need to switch out to someone more advantageous in the matchup.

This does not mean there isn't a character you could be switching to to defeat X easier - you could stick to Y, but X may have a more favourable matchup against who you are facing. Rather, it means certain characters/strategies/playstyles won't wall you out and require you changing your character to compete.

We see this dynamic often with certain players. Nairo mains Robin and Dark Pit, but we see him switch out of those characters and to ZSS very often now. He used to primarily play Robin, and he began switching to Dark Pit for matchups Robin has trouble with (or sets Nairo likely felt Robin wasn't performing well in). Recently, he's even been switching out of Dark Pit to ZSS. He still mains Robin, but we do see less Robin play for sure. NAKAT is another player who uses Ness, but switches to Fox when he feels it may let him achieve victory more securely. Having a pocket/secondarymain is a normal thing. But when do you make the distinction that your 'main' has shifted?

The question is - if you have a secondary main that you eventually start switching to very often when having trouble with your main, should that character be the one you START your sets with?

 

[Z'zgashi]

I dunno, while I do agree with what you said about how Samus can't control the match since she lacks strong options at any range, I feel that Mii Swordfighter is even worse in that regard.

I do think Samus needs to be fixed a bit. I would place a lot of the blame on her missiles, which are just terrible in this game. Obviously junk like her UpSmash and Jabs not linking properly also needs fixing.

Tbh, I dont really have a super solid reason for why I think Swordfighter > Samus aside from what Ive already said and from personal experience, but I will say I think they are both VERY EXTREMELY CLOSE to each other in terms of viability and I wont argue against anyone who thinks Samus > Swordfighter. Just a personal opinion. Also, even though it definitely doesnt matter in the slightest, Id be willing to bet Swordfighter wins the Samus match up ;p

 

[TTTTTsd]

The question is - if you have a secondary main that you eventually start switching to very often when having trouble with your main, should that character be the one you START your sets with?

This is an interesting question, but my answer is that I'm probably at my best and most comfortable with my main who happens to struggle in certain MUs, and I believe that having secondaries that you feel close to that level of confidence in can help you overcome it. It's a matter of player preference I guess, but to me, Dr. Mario is a very fun character that I enjoy using more than anyone else and that's sort of the bottom line. I like the characters I sub, but the one I get the most out of is Doc.

To me, my main is the character I want to use the most and want to attain success with, but if that's simply not feasible, it's important to have a backup plan. Winning is important too, after all.

 

[Thinkaman]

I immediately had this impression as well. If it was Diddy that would be one thing (anyone can play Diddy super well, in addition to being absurdly strong he's also super basic), but it's not like you can just pick up Zard and be good with him. He must not have known that matchup.

I was a little unfair there; I played PT the most of anyone in the last few years of Brawl, and have spent a modest amount of time with Charizard.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think a lot of people are down on Samus
because she doesn't really have moves that
can constantly be used to pressure the opposition
like many of the top tiers have. Instead she has
to get into her opponent's head and make sure
to use the correct move in any given situation
that the opponent puts her in. Samus can't
really force anything from the opponent without
a charged shot or tricking them with bombs,
but she does have the tools to capitalize on mistakes they might make.

Also, I find her default missiles themselves
are fine (minus the luxury of Melee kill power), it's
her firing speed that makes them bad (and what
makes her Relentless Missiles so good in comparison).

 

[Terotrous]

Is there any particular reason you post in haiku?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Earlier in this thread I indicated that a character is clearly quite formidable and will likely remain so if they can make it through a tournament without needing to rely on counterpicks. This game, like many fighting games, is counterpick-heavy. You usually can't rely on one character due to the variety of character archetypes, traits, and abilities. But there are some characters that can be used without feeling the need to switch out to someone more advantageous in the matchup.

This does not mean there isn't a character you could be switching to to defeat X easier - you could stick to Y, but X may have a more favourable matchup against who you are facing. Rather, it means certain characters/strategies/playstyles won't wall you out and require you changing your character to compete.

We see this dynamic often with certain players. Nairo mains Robin and Dark Pit, but we see him switch out of those characters and to ZSS very often now. He used to primarily play Robin, and he began switching to Dark Pit for matchups Robin has trouble with (or sets Nairo likely felt Robin wasn't performing well in). Recently, he's even been switching out of Dark Pit to ZSS. He still mains Robin, but we do see less Robin play for sure. NAKAT is another player who uses Ness, but switches to Fox when he feels it may let him achieve victory more securely. Having a pocket/secondarymain is a normal thing. But when do you make the distinction that your 'main' has shifted?

The question is - if you have a secondary main that you eventually start switching to very often when having trouble with your main, should that character be the one you START your sets with?

i guess realistaclly iv been putting more time into developing my samus than my pit. but i would still callpit my main. iv just recently figured out how to deal with cqc effectivly and reatreat safly into range projectiles. I probalyhave more understanding of samus as a character but imbetter with pit on technical level since i can aim arrows really well. ontop of great spacing. but i learn very little about pit when i play him in comparison to samus. probbably why i feel samus has a high skill cap in comparisson to pit where it just becomes smart decisions. I still foresee dedicated mains of samus making strides in the future.

 

[Ffamran]

What about characters who aren't really viable?

Despite it being early in the game's meta, there's really not a lot of evidence for the viability of some of the very low end characters.

There's still potential for them, but we won't know until everything's figured out. So, let's say Mii Swordfighter is the worst - i don't know why, but you all have been saying so -, but what if there's some MUs where MS has a fair game or an advantage?

So, adding MU unfamiliarity and leaving as many options open, I think viable characters remain viable until they're completely analyzed.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

There's still potential for them, but we won't know until everything's figured out. So, let's say Mii Swordfighter is the worst - i don't know why, but you all have been saying so -, but what if there's some MUs where MS has a fair game or an advantage?

So, adding MU unfamiliarity and leaving as many options open, I think viable characters remain viable until they're completely analyzed.

that list was already lost on me since dk was not listed there fore not really viable. witch is crazy.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

People overrate how much Miller's win at Beast 5 matters as far as Luigi's performance as a character is concerned. He's been a damn good luigi player since the days of Brawl, it's just that few people ever knew about him because UK never had a very active brawl scene. I bet nobody outside of EU and a few people from the Luigi boards even knew about him in the first place. All that considered the only thing about his performance at Beast 5 that's truly a surprise is that he beat cyve's Diddy Kong in GF1 so convincingly. Nothing else he did at the tournament was really beyond what could be expected of him.

If we learn anything about Luigi from the results of Beast 5 it's that he could easily be a troublesome matchup for Diddy Kong. At least it seems to match theorycraft where spotdodge -> usmash / utilt counters monkey flip, where Luigi's jab will disrupt Diddy's grab more often than not, where Luigi's bair is on par with Diddy's fair and where Luigi's dthrow setups for KOs nearly as reliably as Diddy Kong's does. Keep in mind though that Luigi was considered to be a counter to Diddy in Brawl for quite a while for similar reasons - turned out that Diddy had a very solid advantage against Luigi in the end so it remains to be seen whether results keep on backing up theorycrafting or not in this game. In either case, I think Luigi's main struggle are going to be characters with a powerful mid-range zoning game like Rosalina, Shulk or Ike.

 

[Ffamran]

that list was already lost on me since dk was not listed there fore not really viable. witch is crazy.

I'm not going to list everyone - that takes too long. Plus, you know where DK would be. That's the beauty of an lazily written open tier list.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Are there videos of BEAST 5? Also what determined that Diddy beat Luigi in Brawl? He does have problems with mid range stuff and if it was his banana play which has been significantly weakened maybe Luigi does just beat him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Beast finished just yesterDay, I don't think videos are up yet.

Luigi could not really approach Diddy in Brawl, not even if he was willing to take certain risks and bananas certainly played a big role. But I think it's way too early to call the matchup in Luigi's favor. Diddy can still cheese wins with dthrow -> utilt after successfully connecting a banana toss at extremely fraudulent percent. That's always gonna be a factor as long as his uair isn't being patched. He's definitely a lot more clutch than he was on Brawl where Diddy often turned out to be the one who ended up getting cheesed by offstage shenanigans or ICs. The matchup might be even though.