Character Competitive Impressions

[A2ZOMG]

So I just played against a good Sonic with customs on.

I swear, this matchup is the most frustrating in the entire game. As every other character. Ugh. Forget Palutena/Robin/Peach, top tier consists of SONIC, and then a tier gap. Hammer Spin Dash is absurd. Ughhhhhhhhh. It's actually disgusting. I can feel the bile from my pancreas rise up and play on the edge of my lips, guys. This character is absurd.

We need more posts like this. Then we mass campaign on Twitter to Sakurai about how much we hate Sonic.

Glad to see you now believe me when I say Sonic is the most cancerous character in Smash. Oh and Pikachu is not far behind, especially considering he ALSO got buffed.

 

[SonicZeroX]

We need more posts like this. Then we mass campaign on Twitter to Sakurai about how much we hate Sonic.

Glad to see you now believe me when I say Sonic is the most cancerous character in Smash. Oh and Pikachu is not far behind, especially considering he ALSO got buffed.

Ask Sakurai for Sonic Boom's Sonic so that way he becomes slower, taller, and has a tether grab.

 

[deepseadiva]

Went to a tournament today, and after some experimentation, and also considering the direction the patches might go, I was interested in how the "hard" counters in this game will work.

As in, which characters you would counterpick to have a heavy advantage against. I'm sure those matchups will be obvious with some of the polarizing characters, like Little Mac and Duck Hunt Dog, but what about the more well-rounded characters like Zamus? I'm confident Rosalina straight up beats Ness. Just something I was thinking about, since the future patches in this game will lessen the gap between the tiers. I know Nintendo isn't out to balance the cast perfectly, but I'm sure they're out to remove "broken" characters and traits. Making counterpicking the name of this game soon enough.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Ask Sakurai for Sonic Boom's Sonic so that way he becomes slower, taller, and has a tether grab.

LMAO please do it.

On the note of Dr. Mario, Dair got a little bit better at low %s for more guaranteed followups :D. They're evolving him....when 1.0.5 makes Dr. Mario anything but low tier, if it happens, quote me here, I will literally eat a coffee mug.

 

[NairWizard]

We need more posts like this. Then we mass campaign on Twitter to Sakurai about how much we hate Sonic.

Glad to see you now believe me when I say Sonic is the most cancerous character in Smash. Oh and Pikachu is not far behind, especially considering he ALSO got buffed.

I don't think that Sonic is cancerous (I don't like to use the word cancerous to refer to things that aren't, well, cancer, in the first place), and I think that Pikachu is far from bad design: he's perfectly fair and not frustrating to fight.

My problems here are (in bullet points):

• Hammer Spin Dash

end list.

HAMMER SPIN DASH IS ABSURD UGHGHHHGHGHGHGHGHGHGHGHGHGHGHG THIS MOVE. Whoever said that it's not THAT much better than spin dash needs to have his eyes checked.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well, I guess we can at least point that one out as a huge balance/fun offender.

I'm rather inclined to believe Sonic by design is very fun ruining. He slows the game down like no other character because there's no reasonable way to chase or pin him down, and his approach is a pure guess to intercept. Which then leads to a game where the person playing against Sonic is effectively forced to shield all day as Sonic plays hit and run. That by itself doesn't require Hammer Spin Dash, and it's largely degenerative gameplay where it really only comes down to how many times Sonic screws up.

Pikachu can do very similar unreactable shenanigans and escapes with Quick Attack, with slightly less broken ground options but instead has a projectile and broken edgeguarding. In short though you never feel good chasing Pikachu because there's no real way to pin it down and you are often just forced to blindly guess to punish Pikachu.

 

[Thinkaman]

Shuriken was nerfed by 2 frames according to bajisci, so Greninja doesn't "lack a solid way to force an approach." He just loses more to some characters with better projectiles, like Sheik.

It was nerfed by what looks to me about 5-6 frames. (Looking at both of them running live, side-by side in 0.25x speed in front of me.)

It's not that big of a nerf, but it does make it not-totally-free harass.

I think these Greninja nerfs were small, deserved, and leave behind a formidable character.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Just like to say that I LOVE these Ganon buffs and if Sakurai does this kind of thing with Doc and makes him better I will be eternally grateful.

But for now I will embrace these Ganon buffs.

 

[Crescent_Sun]

Do you know that feeling some of us get when we play a character that's just too sickeningly good and need to cleanse ourselves?

I'm having a feeling like that, but for completely different reasons. I've been fighting a few little macs post patch and... I just feel so bad. This feels genuinely pathetic. I have no attachment to Little Mac, and I feel like that side b nerf....is just awful. I barely even need to try to edge guard or gimp.

It feels like the update patch notes for Mac are "Little Mac now instantly dies when leaving the stage." I just don't feel good beating little macs now. Why is this depressing me?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Well, I guess we can at least point that one out as a huge balance/fun offender.

I'm rather inclined to believe Sonic by design is very fun ruining. He slows the game down like no other character because there's no reasonable way to chase or pin him down, and his approach is a pure guess to intercept. Which then leads to a game where the person playing against Sonic is effectively forced to shield all day as Sonic plays hit and run. That by itself doesn't require Hammer Spin Dash, and it's largely degenerative gameplay where it really only comes down to how many times Sonic screws up.

Pikachu can do very similar unreactable shenanigans and escapes with Quick Attack, with slightly less broken ground options but instead has a projectile and broken edgeguarding. In short though you never feel good chasing Pikachu because there's no real way to pin it down and you are often just forced to blindly guess to punish Pikachu.

So then what is Sonic vs Pikachu? 2 People who can't land a hit?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Pretty much lol

 

[Sinister Slush]

Before I didn't think Yoshi was Top 5 at all.
But with nerfs to Rosalina Lucario Greninja Sheik etc. he can possibly be Top 5 this time even with the slap on the wrist nerfs he got.

 

[Kofu]

Well, I guess we can at least point that one out as a huge balance/fun offender.

I'm rather inclined to believe Sonic by design is very fun ruining. He slows the game down like no other character because there's no reasonable way to chase or pin him down, and his approach is a pure guess to intercept. Which then leads to a game where the person playing against Sonic is effectively forced to shield all day as Sonic plays hit and run. That by itself doesn't require Hammer Spin Dash, and it's largely degenerative gameplay where it really only comes down to how many times Sonic screws up.

Pikachu can do very similar unreactable shenanigans and escapes with Quick Attack, with slightly less broken ground options but instead has a projectile and broken edgeguarding. In short though you never feel good chasing Pikachu because there's no real way to pin it down and you are often just forced to blindly guess to punish Pikachu.

As far as slowing the game down, I agree with Sonic being frustrating. However, he still has bad priority in general, which was one of his biggest problems in Brawl. (The other one, killing, well...)

My experience against the hedgehog in this game is minimal, though, to say the least, and my opponents haven't exactly been the best. I'll get a better feel for the character and learn exactly how frustrating he is a little later (that will also include "experiencing" Hammer Spin Dash).

 

[meleebrawler]

Bowser is licking his chops now that the once mighty characters have begun their fall into hell.

Well, he will once his players stop whining about the lack of reliable Bowsercide.

 

[meleebrawler]

Do you know that feeling some of us get when we play a character that's just too sickeningly good and need to cleanse ourselves?

I'm having a feeling like that, but for completely different reasons. I've been fighting a few little macs post patch and... I just feel so bad. This feels genuinely pathetic. I have no attachment to Little Mac, and I feel like that side b nerf....is just awful. I barely even need to try to edge guard or gimp.

It feels like the update patch notes for Mac are "Little Mac now instantly dies when leaving the stage." I just don't feel good beating little macs now. Why is this depressing me?

Good Little Macs rarely used side b to recover anyway unless they really
had to. He can wall-jump you know. Won't the reduced distance
help players not self-destruct with the move now?

 

[Crescent_Sun]

The distance is the same when you're on the ground, so not at all. I've never seen a Little Mac wall jump, that's probably the most mindblowing thing I'll learn today. I just know they could at least cover some distance with that side b before to recover, now I'm seeing them completely unable to make recoveries that would've worked before. It kinda makes beating him unsatisfying and pathetic.

 

[Radical Larry]

I used to think Ganondorf as a low mid-tier character, but thanks to all of his buffs, I feel like he's a high tier character now. The N-air deals absurd damage now, if both hit, and his attacks link into each other better and can KO opponents quickly.

As for Link, despite his nerf with the Bomb Cancelling, he's still quite a high to top tier player, especially with Rosa and Little Mac nerfs. He can now solidly send Luma away and give a better game against Rosalina, making him a Counter now, and Little Mac has no chance against Link with the air speed and recovery nerfs (yes, Little Mac is slower in the air now).

Oh, and one last thing, Little Mac's super armor on F-Smash only affects the front portion of him now, so if you plan to use it, make sure your opponent isn't behind you. His super armor on his attacks are also weaker, as well as his F-Smash Up dealing 17% damage.

 

[popsofctown]

Sonic is probably the best character in the game at this point.

 

[Thinkaman]

I used to think Ganondorf as a low mid-tier character, but thanks to all of his buffs, I feel like he's a high tier character now. The N-air deals absurd damage now, if both hit, and his attacks link into each other better and can KO opponents quickly.

As for Link, despite his nerf with the Bomb Cancelling, he's still quite a high to top tier player, especially with Rosa and Little Mac nerfs. He can now solidly send Luma away and give a better game against Rosalina, making him a Counter now, and Little Mac has no chance against Link with the air speed and recovery nerfs (yes, Little Mac is slower in the air now).

Oh, and one last thing, Little Mac's super armor on F-Smash only affects the front portion of him now, so if you plan to use it, make sure your opponent isn't behind you. His super armor on his attacks are also weaker, as well as his F-Smash Up dealing 17% damage.

Most of the changes you are references are not real.

The only thing that actually changed here is:

• Ganon landing lag reductions
• Item Special Toss Canceling removed
• Little Mac aerial side-b slight speed/range nerf

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yeah, if Sonic wasn't the best before already he most likely is now lol

 

[Thinkaman]

I already had all my chips on Sonic.

Though, I will point out the irony: The only two characters I could beat most Sonics with, Ganon and Palutena, got buffed.

Specifically Palutena u-tilt--this was the only matchup I used that move in...

 

[SonicZeroX]

Sonic is probably the best character in the game at this point.

Either him or Diddy. I think Diddy is a bit more well rounded though since he can kill and combo off grabs and can mix up his game with bananas and side B while Sonic's game plan is pretty much just side B everyday.

 

[Thinkaman]

Bold statement: I currently think Sonic is the best character in the game.

This didn't stop being a thing or anything.


Otherwise, I think the nerfs to Rosaluma, Sheik, ZSS, Yoshi, Greninja, Lucario, and Peach were all appropriate and unlikely to yield anything less than a great, effective character.

The Greninja nerfs are being overestimated. The ZSS nerfs are being underestimate. (The buffs aren't real, pure placebo.)

Funny: My most hated move in testing was Greninja u-smash, and AA's was Charizard Dragon Rush. Looks like we both win this round!


And of course, the Olimar, Ike, MK, Shulk, and Ganon buffs are welcome. Even the slight Palutena and Zelda buffs are cool.

 

[Berserker.]

Even the slight Zelda buff is cool.

..... (1% damage increase lol)

DAMN. I was late to the sword character celebration

 

[Thinkaman]

..... (1% damage increase lol)

DAMN. I was late to the sword character celebration

People need to not look gift horses in the mouth. People are silly; they would be complaining less if she got nothing.

 

[ZombieBran]

..... (1% damage increase lol)

Not worth losing our wonderful magnet hands for.

People need to not look gift horses in the mouth. People are silly; they would be complaining less if she got nothing.

It's less a gift horse and more like a reversal. Before release in the Smash e3 demos, Utilt did 7%. We're really just glad she escaped unnerfed. I almost expected a FW nerf.

 

[popsofctown]

Either him or Diddy. I think Diddy is a bit more well rounded though since he can kill and combo off grabs and can mix up his game with bananas and side B while Sonic's game plan is pretty much just side B everyday.

I think Diddy's flexibility will make him do better against slow movers like Bowser and Ganon, but Sonic is better against Rosa and the Sonic vs. Diddy matchup itself probably favors Sonic.
So I think Sonic is slightly better but Diddy is a close second.

 

[Berserker.]

People need to not look gift horses in the mouth. People are silly; they would be complaining less if she got nothing.

Good point and this godlike 1% buff....

Well, that reminds me... Shulk got like 1% damage buffs on pretty much all his standards and throws which helps buster deal more damage. His f-air can combo into jab (mid %'s with buster) and buster is now more "sturdy". It still takes more damage but it's down from 1.03. Speed got double buffed since the damage modifier is at exactly x0.8 and with the general damage buffs, it's basically more rewarding to use. The only placebo I got is being able to kill with Smash earlier but it's been proven that the knockback modifier is the same

It kinda sucks that Marth (and Lucina) didn't get anything based from what I heard. Marth's still really good anyway. Those Ike buffs are incredible. I just performed my first Ikecide today. His f-air is insane. You can SH it and it deals 12% damage? Damn

 

[Flamecircle]

About megaman- I think he's got potential all around, simply for being so unique. He has no trouble building damage by being incredibly annoying at midrange with disjoints and pellets, but the real crux of his "goodness" is how (theoretically) easy he lands kills. Backair is a good option, Upair is... maybe a good option? Fsmash is a great pivot option/mixup for a kill on people who can't deflect it. There's that bubble wrap custom, which ruins air approaches fatally. And he has the uppercut.

Megaman's future I feel is Utilt, a 4(?) frame startup uppercut with incredible knockback. Maybe I'm not understanding the factors, but it doesn't seem logistically difficult to land with better controls. One good perfect shield, one good spotdodge, an airdodge read, and it's a kill from 90% up. It even has a hit confirm combo where it's guaranteed off of a fullhop metalblade hit, downwards or diagonal. I feel it's similar in potential to Jiggypuff's rest, only Megaman isn't going to take a full charged smash after getting an uppercut kill.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The Greninja nerfs are being overestimated.

Water Shuryken nerf is not overestimated tbh.

 

[Thinkaman]

For context, spamming Water Shuryken is now 6/7th the old speed.

It's a noticeable change, but still a small one.

 

[The Real Gamer]

I love how free Lucario is offstage now.

Use Flamethrower to cover the ledge and force him to recover high, then just turn around and Flare Blitz his landing.

 

[Thinkaman]

Yeah the Lucario recovery nerf seems huge. Just as nerfed as the other top-prospects.

WHY SONIC WHY

 

[SonicZeroX]

At least Sonic's taunts were nerfed going into Smash 4

 

[-RedX-]

At least Sonic's taunts were nerfed going into Smash 4

Not a nerf, they probably piss off the other player(s) more than ever before.

 

[FimPhym]

Not that he's changed much, but I've been playing dedede all day and his changes feel tiny. Let's take a look at post patch dedede!

The down throw is a little more awkward to combo at lower percents based on vectoring, before you could just hold forward and fair every time. It's possible to get up air every time but I prefer the situation I'm in after a fair. The combo to up air varies from character to character but seems to last until about as high percents as old down throw combos. When they get to higher percents I'm looking to forward throw off stage and it still has a great horizontal angle.

Gordo change feels more or less irrelevant, they are now reflected by 'seriously everything' instead of merely 'everything'.

Meanwhile the top tiers are falling down and proving easier match ups, meaning even if he hasn't moved a jot on the tier list dedede has an easier life.

The projectile nerfs to greninja, sheik, link, peach and zss(?) are more than welcome for a slow fatty.

I'm sure dedede is not top tier as much as everyone else is, but he's feeling real fine.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yeah the Lucario recovery nerf seems huge. Just as nerfed as the other top-prospects.

WHY SONIC WHY

It means Lucarios are going to have to learn how to recover right above the ground of the stage.

 

[Thinkaman]

DDD and Charizard probably enjoy the nerfs to the "top tiers" more than the buffs to the other "low tiers." This is par for the course in terms of balance change interactions.

 

[FimPhym]

DDD and Charizard probably enjoy the nerfs to the "top tiers" more than the buffs to the other "low tiers." This is par for the course in terms of balance change interactions.

For sure. Ike is nicely improved now and will be a harder match. But is he going to be sonic hard? Hell no.

More characters in the magic 4-6 to 6-4 range is fine and dandy if it means not facing 7-3 bad match ups.

 

[PK Gaming]

Sonic's voice clips were buffed for maximum annoyance as well.

Roger Craig Smith is a good actor, but most of Sonic's voice clips were lifted straight from Sonic Generations, and they sound really annoying.