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Character Competitive Impressions

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Mr. Johan

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Nintendo hat tier: :4diddy:

Tip-top tier: :4yoshi: :4zss: :4sonic:

Top tier: :4sheik: :4lucario: :rosalina:

High tier: :4falcon: :4fox: :4greninja: :4peach: :4robinm:

A guesstimate on people's opinions after the patch.

Don't have enough knowledge to pinpoint how high :4myfriends: would Aether his way up nor how high :4shulk: would Air Slash.
 

ParanoidDrone

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The Luma not being able to hit during a throw animation thing is more significant than the pummeling thing that we though was going to happen because of command grabs.

Yeah, Diddy got buffed by receiving no nerfs. Rosalina and Sheik were his worst match-ups, and they've been nerfed. Sheik very importantly lost some of her KO power, and losing KO power against Diddy is huge. Needles have lag now, so this is probably in Diddy's favor.
Rosalina can't hit Diddy out of his command grab any more, and alongside the d-smash and d-tilt nerfs I honestly don't see how Diddy doesn't win this matchup now. The weakened up-smash just adds to it.
After that, Greninja and Yoshi were his second-worst, imo, and they got nerfed (Greninja is basically nonexistent now, or should be, and Yoshi is tuned down a bit). Diddy vs. Greninja is in Diddy's favor. Diddy vs. Yoshi was probably even anyway, or close to it.

Diddy vs. Ike just got a whole lot worse, though.
You conveniently posted after me so I'm not double posting now wheee...

No real comment on Diddy vs. Rosalina now but it's really funny when you use GPull next to Diddy as he tries to throw the banana since it'll change ownership while still on top of him and thus trip him instantly.
 

Iron Kraken

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It's unclear if up smash was straight up nerfed or if the knockback is merely at a different angle. (Which, given how it was straight vertical before is still a bit of a nerf but oh well.) It also appears to affect only Rosalina's up smash, not Luma's.

Nair is arguably a buff since all her other aerials were better at killing anyway and now we can follow up from low % nair hits.

Point on down smash and grab cooldowns, although I haven't had a chance to really play around and see how they feel.

No comment on dtilt, haven't even tried it yet.

Luma being unable to hit out of throw animations is a nerf but still better than what I thought would happen (namely, preventing pummels) so I'm coming out of this ahead.

No lingering hitbox at the end of Luma Shot...I think was already a thing to a certain degree, actually. Not entirely sure but I remember P1 and P2 started out just far enough on FD for me to notice.

So yes, overall nerfed, but IMO not badly enough to suddenly make her bad. Other characters may be stronger candidates for "best in the game," oh no.
I didn't say she was bad. I said she's "maybe not top 5" now. We'll have to find out just how big of a difference the nerfs made through playing. But I'll still main her even if the nerfs keep coming. Although my current secondary character (Yoshi) may start getting a boost in playing time now.

I really do hope that Diddy gets nerfed in a future balance patch now.
 
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Plain Yogurt

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I really gotta say that it feel super nice to lazily walk up to Lucario players who upB into the ground and smash the crap out of that massive endlag.

Can't say if Olimar's significantly better or if I'm just improving with him. His Pikmin still just kinda ditch you every once and a while. :ohwell:

Oh and lol Ike and Shulk buffs.
 
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NairWizard

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Diddy's hitstun canceling with peanut popgun is gone. Not extremely significant, but not minor, either.
 

NairWizard

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and that makes him broken? sorry I'm not following this :/
He was already considered one of the best characters in the game, with positive matchups against most of the roster without customs (game changes a lot with customs). Rosalina and Sheik were his biggest problems, and both have been non-trivially nerfed. So people are coming to the conclusion that Diddy Kong must be the best character in the game now.
 

Thinkaman

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Are we actually sure that Diddy had no changes?

I'd go compare against the stickied Diddy boards moveset data topic myself, except there isn't one.
 

SonicZeroX

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I know his bread and butter down throw to uair still combos and kills just as it always had.
 

NairWizard

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I'm already crying... in my heart
Psh, just use custom Ike. Yesterday, following @san. 's advice, I tested custom Ike (trophy rush is a pain, but it had to be done) with Tempest, Close Combat, and Aether Wave, against a Diddy player for quite some time. The results were mixed but I didn't think that I was at a disadvantage because I actually had landing options and quite a bit of range and disjoint on Diddy.

With Ike's new buffs, if the matchup isn't in Ike's favor then I will eat my own hat.
 

HeavyLobster

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If only.

If they buff Ganon, then I can technically main a stupid Swordsman as well.
Actually Ganon's gotten some decent buffs. His Nair is actually sort of viable as an approach and you can now reliably combo off of Dthrow. It's not Ike-level buffs or quite as much as he needs but he's substantially improved.
 

NairWizard

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Ahem. From about 40 pages earlier in this topic:

Greninja is better than Captain Falcon: there may be matchups where Falcon does a little better because of his dash grab or his up-air juggling, but for the most part you can say that Greninja executing his gameplan is scarier than Falcon executing his gameplan.
.
It's gonna be really funny if in a year from now the tier list comes out and Falcon is way above Greninja.

It probably would have been a better idea to compare two actually similar characters like Marth and Lucina.
Pardon the double post but for the record I will eat my own shoe if this happens.

Time to buy some chocolate-covered shoes. Thanks, Nintendo.
 

KlefkiHolder

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You were the only one who remembered. You could have let it go.

You wanted to eat that shoe, didn't you?

DIDNT YOU?!
 
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Jabejazz

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Here, let me have a shot.

It's gonna be really funny if in a year from now the tier list comes out and DEDEDE is way above DIDDY.

I will eat SolidSense shoes if that happens.

Let it be known.
 

SonicZeroX

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Here, let me have a shot.

It's gonna be really funny if in a year from now the tier list comes out and DEDEDE is way above DIDDY.

I will eat SolidSense shoes if that happens.

Let it be known.
And then Patch 1.0.5 comes out and Dedede's Gordo's are no longer reflectable while Diddy's down throw no longer combos into anything.
 

PK Gaming

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Psh, just use custom Ike. Yesterday, following @san. 's advice, I tested custom Ike (trophy rush is a pain, but it had to be done) with Tempest, Close Combat, and Aether Wave, against a Diddy player for quite some time. The results were mixed but I didn't think that I was at a disadvantage because I actually had landing options and quite a bit of range and disjoint on Diddy.

With Ike's new buffs, if the matchup isn't in Ike's favor then I will eat my own hat.
I see... I'll definitely look into using Ike for him.

A tactician can't fight all of their battles on their own, after all.
 

YeahVeryeah

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I'm taking a guess with why they nerfed Dragon Rush, at 15% I was thinking it was slowly going to be the go to option for him, pretty much better than all his other side B's even if it didn't kill like Flare Blitz did.

They added more of a trade off by the looks of it.

So far he got 1 nerf but I'm not sure with his frame data right now or hitboxes which might have been changed, my guess on hitboxes is a no.
Still, zard is the weakest character by far to get straight nerfed.

The only move people thought was faster was dtilt. I can confirm dtilt is eitherr the exact same or changed so trivially i couldn't notice (when i first heard he had iasa frames in an earlier version i spent about 20 minutes staring at dtilts at 1/4 speed, so i might actually be like some sort of charizard downtilt guru)
 

Emblem Lord

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Greninja got nerfed but it was just stupid stuff he lost same with Peach.
All the top tiers are still top. Just more in line with everyone else.

I'm legit happy about Ike. Good to see him join Marth and Robin in the upper ranks.
 

NairWizard

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Greninja got nerfed but it was just stupid stuff he lost same with Peach.
All the top tiers are still top. Just more in line with everyone else.

I'm legit happy about Ike. Good to see him join Marth and Robin in the upper ranks.
Greninja got absolutely butchered. Shurikens are slower, up-smash has tons of endlag on it, DACUS is probably removed, up-air doesn't spike any more (and people can fall out of it, but that may have been true before, I am told), Hydro Pump's windbox has been substantially lowered, and Shadow Sneak doesn't cancel any aerial endlag any more. He got hit far harder than anyone in the entire cast.
 

Kofu

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I've said it before and and I'll say it again: most of Greninja's nerfs were justified. The only one of those you listed that isn't is Water Shuriken's lag. Hydro Pump was possibly taken too far and IDK about UAir. USmash needed a drawback and Shadow Sneak canceling aerial landing lag was silly in the first place (for DAir, one of my friends called it "cancelling an unsafe move into a more unsafe move.").

The important question is if he can still cancel his taunt with Shadow Sneak.
 

SonicZeroX

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I've said it before and and I'll say it again: most of Greninja's nerfs were justified. The only one of those you listed that isn't is Water Shuriken's lag. Hydro Pump was possibly taken too far and IDK about UAir. USmash needed a drawback and Shadow Sneak canceling aerial landing lag was silly in the first place (for DAir, one of my friends called it "cancelling an unsafe move into a more unsafe move.").

The important question is if he can still cancel his taunt with Shadow Sneak.
You can still taunt while charging shadow sneak and then cancel the taunt into the attack. You can't start up shadow sneak while taunting although it might have been like that before?
 

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If Shuriken was nerfed than yeah he is wrecked. The other crap is negligible. U-smash nerf just means he doesnt get free land traps in air to ground situations vs his opponent anymore.

But yeah shuriken nerf means he drops an entire tier of not two. Thats the basis of his entire neutral game.
 

Kofu

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You can still taunt while charging shadow sneak and then cancel the taunt into the attack. You can't start up shadow sneak while taunting although it might have been like that before?
That's what I meant. I wasn't really familiar with how to perform.the technique but generally knew what it looked like. Shadow Sneak is a good high-risk, high-reward move.
 

YeahVeryeah

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Pretty sure WFT was nerfed as well (Fair leg hitbox is no longer unblockable)... unless if you think WFT is an overall better character than Zard.
No i was just decidedly unthorough when remembering the patch notes off the top of my head. Still, even if the nerf wasn't anything major, its weird to see among the shulk and zss buffs.

While I'm talking to another charizard player, ive been having a hard time doing running u-smashes with zard. Are you noticing anything like that
 

Shaya

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Greninja getting a lot of nerfs makes some sense.

Anyone remember when I brought up the Conquest stats which compared Sheik/Sonic/Greninja and Greninja was at twice the saturation/win percent as SHEIK AND SONIC?

He's probably been extremely dominant on wifi since game release, which makes sense. Spammable projectile semi-safe on shield and guaranteed follow ups on hit, a near lagless smash attack with good disjoints, uber damage, and good kill power, and a few gimmicks which were very hard to get around in lag (landing into side-b).

honestly though, I'm not sure about Ike needing the buffs he got, I really didn't think of him as bottom 5 like most did. The jab fix up was very important/essential though (really destroys him if characters can just hold shield to avoid it/etc); but I really couldn't bring myself to think a character without real nerfs from Brawl like Ike could actually be such a bad character, but now... fair buffs likely make the match up against the likes of Rosalina significantly easier. But yeah, not really complaining, my notion that his worst match up in the game would be like 40:60 (maybe 35:65) before now is probably looking at least one degree better at the least.
 
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KlefkiHolder

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No i was just decidedly unthorough when remembering the patch notes off the top of my head. Still, even if the nerf wasn't anything major, its weird to see among the shulk and zss buffs.

While I'm talking to another charizard player, ive been having a hard time doing running u-smashes with zard. Are you noticing anything like that
If you have tap jump off, then try inputting a jump right before the up smash.

If you have tap jump on, then your timing as a whole is off.

Also DDD got some nerfs... I'd say he was the worst to get nerfs. Partly because : 1) DDD was bad and 2) Zard has always been food (secret high tier I swear... Been thinking this since like day one)

DDD also got more nerfs and worse nerfs
 
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