Character Competitive Impressions

[The Real Gamer]

No i was just decidedly unthorough when remembering the patch notes off the top of my head. Still, even if the nerf wasn't anything major, its weird to see among the shulk and zss buffs.

While I'm talking to another charizard player, ive been having a hard time doing running u-smashes with zard. Are you noticing anything like that

Nope I haven't been having any trouble with it at all, but I've have the input converted to muscle memory for a while.

Not sure if this helps but try not to roll the circle pad upwards and instead quickly bring it closer to the neutral position before you flick it up. I always make an "L" instead of a quarter circle if that makes sense.

EDIT: This is with tap jump off though.

 

[Jabejazz]

If you have tap jump off, then try inputting a jump right before the up smash.

If you have tap jump on, then your timing as a whole is off.

Also DDD got some nerfs... I'd say he was the worst to get nerfs. Partly because : 1) DDD was bad and 2) Zard has always been food (secret high tier I swear... Been thinking this since like day one)

DDD also got more nerfs and worse nerfs

Apart from the spike removal, nothing is extremely significant, although nerfing both fair, which is your goto move out of a dthrow, and DThrow, which does not allow to reliably use fair out of is somewhat weird.

But yeah, fairly surprising to see him receive nerfs.

 

[YeahVeryeah]

Nope I haven't been having any trouble with it at all, but I've have the input converted to muscle memory for a while.

Not sure if this helps but try not to roll the circle pad upwards and instead quickly bring it closer to the neutral position before you flick it up. I always make an "L" instead of a quarter circle if that makes sense.

EDIT: This is with tap jump off though.

Yeh, but pre patch sliding the stick to up was working. My most common application was to running up smash someone after rock smashing them when returning to neutral; they either airdoged and got hit, did nothign and got hit, or jumped and i could continue to keep them out of neutral. I've been doing a lot more dash attacks since the last patch. I'll just practice your way, I guess.


This does bring up something about charizard. He has a lot of options for keeping an opponent above him, including not one, not two, but three kill moves: up smash which disjoints and can beat airdodges, up air which is our most powerful kill move on the typical wide but short blast zone stages, and fly which has super armor. This is good news for a character with a questionable neutral. Dtilt is a significant disjoint, in that zard ducks while shooting his wings up. It can beat the majority of the casts options. Attacks like wizard foot which stall in the air then fall quickly can mix him up, but the utilt wins with timing. Attacks like gdub/lonk/tlonk dair, and projectiles like megamans missile punch thing, are the best options against utilt, but can all be beaten with fly.

Of course, he's not so good at getting back to neutral himself: his options for that are nair rock smash and flare blitz, all with their weaknesses.

 

[Conda]

But yeah shuriken nerf means he drops an entire tier of not two.

It really doesn't. That's not how tiers work. We have yet to see how negatively it will affect him.

 

[Shaya]

Shaya's 5 second post-patch upper echelon thoughts, with rough ordering (better mental splits towards the top); I think it would be safe to stay I'm etching towards customs off with these, otherwise i'd probably be putting palutena at top 5, haha.

Very likely top ~5:
Very likely top 10:

Very likely top 15:
Potentially top 15:
Mah Potential likelihood:

Ness is broken, now his apparent brokenness will be more apparent with sheik neutered.
Rosalina still gonna VROOMA. Probably. Lucario's up-b having lag I think is pretty big, but we'll see. Ike was already good, now he's probably good against EVERYONE.
If nothing much else changed other than the nair buff, I wouldn't be surprised if MK trickles into the upper regions again. A single good follow up + punish [he really didn't have a single one other than up b; RISKY + it was his best/only kill move] will gel together so many of his shortfalls I feel, but we'll see.

I dont really know where to put Tink, Link, Pac, Duck Hunt, Villager. But I think they're probably within my groupings or not far off.

Sheik will probably still steam roll a lot of match ups, but I think she'll not be dealt straight royal flushes against every top tier like she was before.
Greninja seemingly looks like he's been toned down to more reasonable levels - his weight difference to sheik while still not too contrasting frame data while dealing excessively more damage didn't seem right to me, he could still be right up there, as I was primarily thinking Greninja's strength came from obnoxiousness rather than solid design / game play.

Falco is unfortunately a bit reflective of customs on I'd say, but he seems to have been given buffs nonetheless, which may help his "normal" strengths well enough. But mah double range up-b that allows me to go deep with drill pick at the bottom right/left blast zones will warp how OP I see Falco in my mind forever I guess (until customs off is so ingrained that I'll know for certain he isn't godlike).

Jiggs could be low tier, sometimes those excessive numbers can warp how strong you think a character's design/tools actually are. But I would say out of the 7 characters I have in those groupings, only Yoshi has comparable kill power/potential.

 

[Luco]

Ness received a few slight nerfs but nothing major; his Dthrow is now 7% down from 9% and his smashes might do slightly less damage but they were rarely used for that anyway so nothing too big (thankfully :D ). Though it is speculated (not proven yet) that his KB is less for the Dthrow which means guaranteed combos which would actually be a significant buff.

I've always been a bit wary about Robin being in top 10. I think he's certainly high but my first guess would have been to put him somewhere between 10th and 15th, closer to the 15th mark.

If anything it feels like we actually have too many 'top 10 contenders' haha, so i've just been spending my time ordering this out in my head.

 

[Deleted member]

Every nerf that the dev team gave to Greninja was well justified, but the main reason that Greninja fans/mains feel neutered is how much he got nerfed in those areas, and how he didn't get to keep even one of his exceptional tools.

 

[Conda]

I don't think Ness is broken, he has a designed and abusable flaws similar to some other characters. Notably PKT2, but also landing. Let's talk about PKT2, though.

A lot of players haven't built up the skill to get ness out of PKT2, eeeeven though we all know it's a thing. We've known its a thing since Melee. Ness players know it's still super easy in SSB4, body-blocking the bolt just isn't the best way to do it any more. Instead, toss any wind box out, jump down with your reflector, throw your item at Ness or the Bolt, shoot Ness or the Bolt with a projectile, or attack sitting-duck Ness himself in his fat head.

Ness players who face other Ness players take advantage of his recovery more than anyone else. Seriously, harass him offstage after he's used his second jump up and you have a kill. We do this with other characters that have recovery-based weaknesses, yet we're too afraid of Ness's PKT2 hitting us, or the bolt hitting us god forbid.

If Ness is top now and people use him, then he will drop in time. He has a weakness built in that will be appropriately used against him once we become more familiar with fighting him. @ Shaya you spoke recently about Marth and how players who understand him in-and-out and are very intimately familiar with him can defeat him much easier. It's the same case for Ness.

Ness's worst nightmare is fighting a Ness main who is using their secondary.

We currently aren't familiar with fighting Ness with his current strengths, but that will change I guarantee it. I mean, he's been low-mid up until now. He is different to any other character recovery-wise and offstage-wise, and the only thing making him seem 'broken' is that players who face Ness players don't abuse his weaknesses enough. Like when someone fights Little Mac yet doesn't try to get him offstage, or when someone fights Bowser and doesn't shoot constant projectiles, or when someone fights Rosalina and doesn't try to knock Luma offstage when the opportunity presents itself.

 

[Luco]

I disagree with that slightly. I've talked to top Ness players back in Brawl and even then they said at top levels of play recovery was rarely an issue - that at that level you know the different ways to recover and can avoid many setups. This iteration, jumping into PKT as soon as Ness uses it is flawed because it retains Lucas' properties for the first few moments, and Ness can also bounce off a wall and use his recovery twice. He's been significantly buffed in this regard from previous iterations and while I certainly agree that at some level it's fragile, I don't think it's the character-breaking flaw that people are making it out to be, or at least in this iteration of smash.

I'm more than just slightly biased though.

@ Conda Your edits are a solid point though. Let me think about it.

 

[Shaya]

It really doesn't. That's not how tiers work. We have yet to see how negatively it will affect him.

Also it actually kinda is how tiers work.
Every character in the game has the same amount of options, in theory. They all have the same moves, universal tools with invincibility, etc etc
What separates characters often is intrinsic 'extra options' or options which are disgustingly skewed.

A single move on a character could be the straw that breaks the camels back, in both overpowered or bottom tier types of ways. If MK lost tornado potency in Brawl, do you think he'd be #1 still? -MAYBE-, but I would be more surprised if he didn't end up dropping off heavily in tournament results at all levels of play, plus many match ups would skew distinctively away from his favour.

People were quick to claim that Falco with bad lasers was bottom tier; although I think most of Falco's strengths were maintained beyond this and hence he was underrated. It goes both ways.

If Sheik and Greninja both have their projectiles nerfed, then their abilities to combat evenly with zoners is diminished significantly, while their ability to camp out precision characters / force approaches by them are less as well. Stuff like this could be universal -5s in match ups, and that's definitely enough to bump a character a tier or two down.


is a character I've had excessive amounts of play time against in comparison to most. The only Ness in the world who had tournament results for a very very long time was my main training partner. I've played against FOW and Shaky; losing to shaky in tournament (ya ya, I know, Mars losing to Ness?).
ALL THE THINGS I COULD ABUSE AGAINST THIS CHARACTER NO LONGER EXISTS IN SMASH4. His range isn't less than others on his normals (his fair was outdoing everything already), his good grab game in Brawl for combo/legitimate standards was very good and untouched, and now in comparison to other character's grab games, he's a monster.
Back throw as a kill move that's most definitely a kill move (nearly all the other throws with good DI/stage position you can survive upwards of 150%... Ness? No you're going to die at 120%). Kill throws are bonkers in every game, and now no character bar palutena has a comparable grab game. Grabs are overpowered in every game and usually define who is top tier (Diddy down throw anyone?)

I think with the tuning down of Sheik and Rosalina, gaps between top and below seem less than before. Being the most 'broken' at any time is going to unfortunately always happen. But Ness' are pumping out tournament results and will likely continue to do so; but harder.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If Lucario's learn to cancel his UpB lag right like he could in Brawl the nerf wouldn't hit him as well. You end the move right above the ground of the stage, you don't ram into it, and you can land with a lot less lag.

 

[Conda]

Also it actually kinda is how tiers work.
Every character in the game has the same amount of options, in theory. They all have the same moves, universal tools with invincibility, etc etc
What separates characters often is intrinsic 'extra options' or options which are disgustingly skewed.

A single move on a character could be the straw that breaks the camels back, in both overpowered or bottom tier types of ways. If MK lost tornado potency in Brawl, do you think he'd be #1 still? -MAYBE-, but I would be more surprised if he didn't end up dropping off heavily in tournament results at all levels of play, plus many match ups would skew distinctively away from his favour.

People were quick to claim that Falco with bad lasers was bottom tier; although I think most of Falco's strengths were maintained beyond this and hence he was underrated. It goes both ways.

If Sheik and Greninja both have their projectiles nerfed, then their abilities to combat evenly with zoners is diminished significantly, while their ability to camp out precision characters / force approaches by them are less as well. Stuff like this could be universal -5s in match ups, and that's definitely enough to bump a character a tier or two down.


is a character I've had excessive amounts of play time against in comparison to most. The only Ness in the world who had tournament results for a very very long time was my main training partner. I've played against FOW and Shaky; losing to shaky in tournament (ya ya, I know, Mars losing to Ness?).
ALL THE THINGS I COULD ABUSE AGAINST THIS CHARACTER NO LONGER EXISTS IN SMASH4. His range isn't less than others on his normals (his fair was outdoing everything already), his good grab game in Brawl for combo/legitimate standards was very good and untouched, and now in comparison to other character's grab games, he's a monster.
Back throw as a kill move that's most definitely a kill move (nearly all the other throws with good DI/stage position you can survive upwards of 150%... Ness? No you're going to die at 120%). Kill throws are bonkers in every game, and now no character bar palutena has a comparable grab game. Grabs are overpowered in every game and usually define who is top tier (Diddy down throw anyone?)

Yeah I understand that obvious decreases in effectiveness result in weaker tools and potential drops in the tier lists. But a nerf does not mean a character's tier movement becomes immediately noticeable and obvious, to the point where we can be sure of a tier placement drop.

 

[san.]

Not very sure if this is a bold claim anymore, but I think is probably one of the best characters with customs on. Prepatch, Ike had to choose between great recovery and decent neutral with the aethers, but now that his base neutral and combo game is superb, customs brings him over the top in dealing with almost any scenario. His only weakness retained with customs is that he can be juggled with quick attacks if double jump is covered.

To summarize, customs give him a great anti-camping projectile or recovery+combo finisher, a very efficient approach+punishing tool, and a pushback attack that's arguably stronger than pre-patch Hydro Pump. He has the option to play campy or aggressive and kill on or offstage.

Even so, he's not mathematically superior like many of the other speed demon top characters of past games, so it's easier to outplay him; however, I feel that many characters would be facing an uphill battle against a 1.0.4 Ike that knows how to utilize all of his customs.

 

[Ticker]

Greninja got absolutely butchered. Shurikens are slower, up-smash has tons of endlag on it, DACUS is probably removed, up-air doesn't spike any more (and people can fall out of it, but that may have been true before, I am told), Hydro Pump's windbox has been substantially lowered, and Shadow Sneak doesn't cancel any aerial endlag any more. He got hit far harder than anyone in the entire cast.

Have to agree. I main Greninja and his moves just don't flow into each other as smoothly as they did. However, his upsmash did need a nerf but besides that I felt that he should of just been left alone.

 

[NairWizard]

So I just played against a good Sonic with customs on.

I swear, this matchup is the most frustrating in the entire game. As every other character. Ugh. Forget Palutena/Robin/Peach, top tier consists of SONIC, and then a tier gap. Hammer Spin Dash is absurd. Ughhhhhhhhh. It's actually disgusting. I can feel the bile from my pancreas rise up and play on the edge of my lips, guys. This character is absurd.

 

[SonicZeroX]

That's what multiple people on this forum have been saying lol

 

[The Real Gamer]

Let the people vent.

If enough complaints are heard maybe Sonic will be patched out of the game in the next update.

 

[Spirst]

Let the people vent.

If enough complaints are heard maybe Sonic will be patched out of the game in the next update.

 

[Shaya]

"Due to legal conflicts with the new Sonic Boom franchise being animated by a competitor, an organisation Sega and Nintendo signed blood pacts over to ensure we never worked with them, we're taking Sonic out of the game; everyone can claim a 1/51 refund of any Smash Bros purchase if they provide receipts/proof of purchase; online sales will be refunded automatically, Please Understand".

DREAMING~

 

[Ultimastrike]

What I'm glad about is that they fixed Robin's B-Reverse problem, with his back to the stage and missing the ledge. No more fear of B-Reversing Elwind and screwing up. Overall the nerfs to some characters help him in some aspects when it comes to match-ups like Sonic, for instance. Though that's all he's got to him post-patch.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Hammer Spin Dash can't be canceled into shield, grab, or spotdodge, so either Sonic needs to be right in your face to hit you on the way up, or he's got no answer to a shielding foe.

Doesn't mean a thing when Sonic can jump cancel as he's going down or he can keep going and avoid punishment, but heeeeeeeeeey.

It's ironic. People wanted Spin Dash scrapped because having two spin moves felt redundant and the Boost ability felt like a more relevant move to use. Then Spin Dash gets turned into a behemoth of a move with an incredible custom to go with it.

 

[NairWizard]

Hammer Spin Dash can't be canceled into shield, grab, or spotdodge, so either Sonic needs to be right in your face to hit you on the way up, or he's got no answer to a shielding foe.

Doesn't mean a thing when Sonic can jump cancel as he's going down or he can keep going and avoid punishment, but heeeeeeeeeey.

It's ironic. People wanted Spin Dash scrapped because having two spin moves felt redundant and the Boost ability felt like a more relevant move to use. Then Spin Dash gets turned into a behemoth of a move with an incredible custom to go with it.

The thing is that sitting in your shield isn't a good way to handle an opponent, and then slower characters have a really tough time getting close enough to Sonic to punish the ending of Hammer Spin Dash. He can do this all game long, and you just have to throw out attacks hoping that you can time your attack correctly to hit him out of HSD. But if you time incorrectly he can jump and bury you, and even though you can shake out he's fast so when you do that he'll be coming back around the mountain to spin into you and then clip you with up-air.

 

[SonicZeroX]

To be fair it will probably be a lot easier to time attacks with the WiiU, having a cstick and all.

 

[Z'zgashi]

If MK lost tornado potency in Brawl, do you think he'd be #1 still?

I agree with what youre trying to say in this post, but just want to point out that, yeah MK would still be #1, Nado is actually a HUGELY overrated move and isnt broken. It IS good as a landing punish and it single handedly shuts down bad characters, but against most characters, its just a punish tool which can be easily punished if used outside of it's niche useful situations. Losing Nado would do next to nothing to MK's viability and options in a match up.

Something that would ACTUALLY drop MK down hardcore would be to remove his glide, THAT would drop him a bit (but he'd still probably be #1 just due to sheer safety and range). Next best thing would be to remove Shuttle Loop, and after that down smash.

Remove all three of those and he'd still be top tier, maybe just not the best. That just shows how ridiculously he outclassed the other characters in Brawl.

 

[otter]

I love the character Ike and his games, but I don't like the idea of him being good just because of the player archetype he attracts.

 

[Crescent_Sun]

I love the character Ike and his games, but I don't like the idea of him being good just because of the player archetype he attracts.

And that would be..?

 

[tibs7]

@ Shaya - surprised you don't rate megaman?
his up-b nerf sucks but his disjoint is godlike.
Ill also make Link top tier

 

[Mr. Johan]

Yeah honestly if Hammer Spin Dash couldn't be jump canceled and the move stopped right when the bounce was complete, two tweaks that could easily be implemented, the latter of which Sonic can even do manually, it would be a lot more tolerable. As it stands now it's got the whole package and then some. No reason to not use this over regular Spin Dash other than damage output, which you would easily recover from by taking the free hit from the burying.

It makes me think the Spin Dashes were ramped up to the extreme because Sakurai and Namco saw a lot of Sonic players suiciding easily with the moves, and instead of making them easier to control, they amplified their effects for a "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility" approach. And Hammer Spin Dash is the acme of that mentality.

Ah well. Maybe when the Mewtwo patch comes up?

 

[Shaya]

My experiences against megaman are either destroying them, or they plank the ledge against me in unplayable lag (Kaion).

Each match goes for 5 minutes/times out because there is no way to approach through **** you cannot power shield like you can offline, so all you hope for is that the megaman's roll habits are just that terrible.
And Megaman players (scum of the Earth) know this. Anecdotal bias has me placing Megaman/Mario/Lucario at the top of my ****ters-on-wifi tier list. Followed by 9/10 ****ters tier: Yoshi, Sonic, Link, Samus

 

[-RedX-]

Ike is amazing/broken in his games. Let that carry over in a fighting game pls.

Ike's transition to Smash4 from Brawl is actually discouraging "casual" level Ike simply because things like Fsmash and Quickdraw got nerfed in the power department. Smash4 Ike seriously focuses on him being super solid in competitive 1v1. ****, he's probably amazing in teams as well.

 

[otter]

I think they'll figure out how to do fair into jab mash.

 

[Bowserlick]

Bowser is licking his chops now that the once mighty characters have begun their fall into hell.

 

[Kofu]

My experiences against megaman are either destroying them, or they plank the ledge against me in unplayable lag (Kaion).

Each match goes for 5 minutes/times out because there is no way to approach through **** you cannot power shield like you can offline, so all you hope for is that the megaman's roll habits are just that terrible.
And Megaman players (scum of the Earth) know this. Anecdotal bias has me placing Megaman/Mario/Lucario at the top of my ****ters-on-wifi tier list. Followed by 9/10 ****ters tier: Yoshi, Sonic, Link, Samus

I'd stick Ness in that group as well, with PK Fire being harder to punish now and with his ridiculous grab game it's not hard for him to just sit back and shieldgrab anyone who tries to approach.

The only reason he wouldn't be there is because PK Thunder gets pretty neutered on Wi-fi.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It really doesn't. That's not how tiers work. We have yet to see how negatively it will affect him.

Thats exactly how tiers work. They killed an option he needs in virtually every match. This will effect his match-ups, which will effect his tier placing. This of course assuming he truly needs it as much as I believe he does.

 

[Conda]

Thats exactly how tiers work. They killed an option he needs in virtually every match. This will effect his match-ups, which will effect his tier placing. This of course assuming he truly needs it as much as I believe he does.

That was my exact point.

 

[Emblem Lord]

See but all signs point to him needing it THAT badly. SH nair aint safe on block nor are his tilts. How does this guy get started now?

 

[Nobie]

From my experience, Mega Man suffers immensely in lag, as all of his attacks are all balanced around range/power at the expense of recovery time. If your inputs get eaten and you somehow end up doing an up tilt from a short distance away, well good luck. The only attacks that allow Mega Man to take advantage of wi-fi input delays are like, dash attack, and down smash sometimes. His aerials, if timed even a little too late barely do anything, which negates one of his best moves for edge guarding in back-air. It's honestly frustrating to play Mega Man in poor conditions on a level I don't feel with any other character I've used.

As I continue to learn Mega Man, what I've come to realize is that he is heavily reliant on forcing the opponent to use up their double jumps, usually by popping them up in the air and threatening to do something. Once they've used up both of their regular jumps, this leaves them a bit more vulnerable to charge shots, slides, etc. Of course, multi-jump characters are harder to deal with in this respect, and Mega Man ends up having to approach those matchups differently. Jigglypuff is especially a pain in this regard, and about the only saving grace is the fact that you can KO it super early (I've noticed that most Jigglypuffs I face don't even try for Rest most of the time now because they know that after 50% a missed Rest means getting taken out by a fully charged down smash).

 

[Z'zgashi]

Shuriken nerf is huge because it means Greninja now lacks a solid way to force an approach from your opponent. Greninja lacks much safe on block and his mobility with nothing to force an aggressive action means his old gameplan of 'force them to come to me then outspace them while they try to stop me' doesnt work at all since the main thing forcing the opponent to play the way they did is heavily nerfed.

 

[NairWizard]

Shuriken was nerfed by 2 frames according to bajisci, so Greninja doesn't "lack a solid way to force an approach." He just loses more to some characters with better projectiles, like Sheik.

 

[PK Gaming]

So I just played against a good Sonic with customs on.

I swear, this matchup is the most frustrating in the entire game. As every other character. Ugh. Forget Palutena/Robin/Peach, top tier consists of SONIC, and then a tier gap. Hammer Spin Dash is absurd. Ughhhhhhhhh. It's actually disgusting. I can feel the bile from my pancreas rise up and play on the edge of my lips, guys. This character is absurd.

A friend of mine mains him and we go at it from time to time. I have to de-salinate for an hour after fighting him, haha.