Character Competitive Impressions

[Mr. Johan]

They kicked Griffith out just as he got the hang of it and started to give Sonic's voice its own identity.

RIP You're too slow.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Sonic's voice clips were buffed for maximum annoyance as well.

Roger Craig Smith is a good actor, but mos of Sonic's voice clips were lifted straight from Sonic Generations, and they sound really annoying.

At least they didn't lift any quotes about homing shots.

Man that fight was... something else.

 

[san.]

For sure. Ike is nicely improved now and will be a harder match. But is he going to be sonic hard? Hell no.

More characters in the magic 4-6 to 6-4 range is fine and dandy if it means not facing 7-3 bad match ups.

I dunno. I am playing both Pikachu and Ike, and now I feel like Ike combos just as much as Pikachu while dealing 2x the damage. I guess the difference is that it's tougher to juggle Pikachu. Ike survives nearly 1.5x as long anyways.

 

[Conda]

My impressions are that Ike may be pretty darn good, overtuned compared to what we're used to from him.

For those who haven't touched him yet in Smash 4, he moves a lot more like a standard swordsman now (Marth, Shulk, etc) with a general swiftness and mobility to him that he didn't have in brawl.
With 1.04's changes, he has a less laggy Fair to air-to-ground with than Marth (though they're both strong moves in their own ways of course), and kill moves up the wazoo. He has his limitations, but they've been reduced since Brawl. His only actually slow moves now are his smashes, which he doesn't need.

He looks like a fun time.

edit: for reference:

 

[Thinkaman]

Guys, I found the character that is apparently really good in Japan and no one here expected to get nerfed!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Ike and Ganondorf received exceptionally good buffs with the patch and may actually be viable to some extent now.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Japan's heavy Pac-Man meta is pretty surprising considering he's nonexistent in the west for the most part.

He's this game's iteration of

 

[Terotrous]

I've been talking up Pac since like 70 pages back.

Anyway, post-nerf Yoshi is still strong. Have to be more thoughtful with his approaches since you can't just go YOLO with dash attacks but his range game is still super solid and he's still got a lot of good options at mid range.

 

[Lavani]

Pac-Man is that character where every time I see one I see something new that makes me think "Wait, he can do that?"

The stuff Abadango does with him in particular is pretty crazy.

 

[deepseadiva]

Pac-Man is that character where every time I see one I see something new that makes me think "Wait, he can do that?"

The stuff Abadango does with him in particular is pretty crazy.

Omg fruit is crazy.

The key play is also amazing. Too bad it takes 45 minutes to charge.

 

[The Real Gamer]

If Pac didn't have that god awful grab I'd have him in my top 10.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BzD7gy5E2g

Abadango does some really swag things with bonus fruit. US & EU Pac-Man players need to step their games up.

 

[Crescent_Sun]

**** man I didn't know Pac Man was a keyblade master, those techniques are crazy!

 

[Terotrous]

I am so totally stealing that Z-drop hydrant tech. Yoink!

People are not chasing his trampolines enough though. If you have to bounce more than once you are super susceptible to getting intercepted.

 

[SonicZeroX]

There's a custom trampoline that just makes him bounce once though so even if people learn to steal his trampoline they could just switch.

Speaking of which, it's interesting to see custom move balances considering I haven't seen any japanese tournaments with custom moves used yet.

 

[NairWizard]

Rosalina was buffed as well as nerfed, even though she may have been overall nerfed. She isn't out of the running yet, don't underestimate this character. Her f-air appears to have been buffed in knockback at the start and can combo into jab now, and the faster Luma recall time and changes to Luma shot give her a better shot at getting back to the ledge using Luma tricks.

Pacman is strong. I'm skeptical of him without a grab, but some of the things that Pacman has going for him:

• A projectile game on par with Robin. You don't want to leave this character alone.
• One of the best landing options in the game in Hydrant; you can't juggle Pacman.
• Quick, strong moves, including a very quick up-b that can get him out of close-quarters situations
  
• Mobility

Is not a shabby list at all.


So, I'm revising my earlier statement. I don't think that Sonic is unbeatable. Just use Ike. Close Combat will tear through Hammer Spin Dash, Ike is disjointed as anything, and he doesn't care about Sonic's unnaturally huge range because Ike has even bigger range. Seriously, Ike is crazy good right now. If you don't have Ike on your top 5 at this moment, you are crazy.

For customs-legal tournaments I'm using: / (4myfriends is the best emote name ever, by the way)
For customs-illegal tournaments I'm using: /

After some thought, I believe that the 4 characters mentioned above are top 5 in their respective environments (customs-legal and customs-illegal). Peach is pretty good with customs, too. Diddy doesn't improve a lot from customs and imo characters like Palutena and Ike are flat out better than Diddy when customs are turned on. Ike's Close Combat and Aether Drive deal much better with a lot of the jank that custom moves bring about, like DK's up-b and Sonic's side-b.

I would main Sonic, but I just can't bring myself to inflict that kind of pain on unsuspecting smashers.

Also, guys, Peach has *not* been strictly nerfed. TLC was very useful and it will be missed, but having her float aerials stale is a *good* thing, not a bad thing. It means that your u-air and f-air kill a bit later, but the knockback reduction greatly benefits your d-air and n-air combos, which is fantastic. She's barely any different from pre-patch, which means a lot because other characters are quite a bit different besides Diddy.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Maybe nintendo is trying to tell us to stop being lamers and try the moves out in a competitive setting.

 

[Thinkaman]

Sonic did get a nerf guys! A tiny cooldown nerf to f-smash.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

God if I use Lucario against Charizard just off what I can theorycraft if he has flare blitz and Lucario is off stage that sounds obnoxious. Flamethrower/edgeguarding, forcing Lucario to land anywhere on stage is just death waiting to happen.

That's just Zard...imagine Fox, Falcon etc. all chasing him down if he lands onstage with the full lag.

This is a big deal, and I reiterate Lucario's are going to have to try and nail down safer ways to get back on.

 

[Terotrous]

God if I use Lucario against Charizard just off what I can theorycraft if he has flare blitz and Lucario is off stage that sounds obnoxious. Flamethrower/edgeguarding, forcing Lucario to land anywhere on stage is just death waiting to happen.

That's just Zard...imagine Fox, Falcon etc. all chasing him down if he lands onstage with the full lag.

This is a big deal, and I reiterate Lucario's are going to have to try and nail down safer ways to get back on.

You basically just have to grab ledge. There's quite a few characters who have no safe onstage recovery options.

 

[Nat Goméz]

Little Mac's side b recovery nerf is just 10% of the actual distance, confirmed. Speed is exactly the same.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P1Os9AWCJRI

I love when people exaggerate about that :l

Air speed exactly the same. Jab combo total damage reduced 4%. And that's pretty much it. Still super armor on all smahes, damage output in all his other attacks exactly the same, Ftilt (best move imo) untouched, And KO puch is now unvectorable.

Placebo effect is really strong tho.

 

[Terotrous]

That side B nerf is actually somewhat significant though. Little Mac frequently needs all the distance he can get.

Pushing him to his doom with windboxes will be easier now.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You basically just have to grab ledge. There's quite a few characters who have no safe onstage recovery options.

That's not as safe as it sounds if you know thats what he wants.

 

[Terotrous]

That's not as safe as it sounds if you know thats what he wants.

Yup. Definitely easier to intercept him now. No one claimed it wasn't a nerf.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sonic did get a nerf guys! A tiny cooldown nerf to f-smash.

That's fantastic. Now I'm totally not scared of his unpunishable approaches and ridiculous damage output anymore

 

[A2ZOMG]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BzD7gy5E2g

Abadango does some really swag things with bonus fruit. US & EU Pac-Man players need to step their games up.

Y'know, the other thing that is little mentioned is how SILLY Pac-Man's Up-B is as a stage control tool.

I mean it's like Diddy's Banana's all over again except you can't throw it back at him.

Yeah I think I'm increasingly understanding why this character was given a terrible grab.

 

[Thinkaman]

That's fantastic. Now I'm totally not scared of his unpunishable approaches and ridiculous damage output anymore

Don't take this from me. Let me have this.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Due to double damage increases. Speed Shulk now has damage mostly comparable to 1.03 vanilla/jump shulk. Even with a 20% DMG debuff his jab hits harder then 1.03 shulk.

What was a 20% damage advantage in buster is now 27%

Ike this, and ike that. Holla at your boi though. Fastest swordsman alive. Neutral has been improved. Laughing straight to the bank. The countless times you have to make 2-3 extra reads in 1.03 because of speeds debuff but speed is the most efficient way to penetrate their projectile game. Was dumb that it debuffed you nearly as hard as Shield Monado.

Now you're coming in hitting like what 1.2x harder than before? Its a damn good day.
To have some of the longest hitboxes in the game and able to be a top 3 speedster?
If you don't see it now...

 

[Iron Kraken]

I've also been thinking that Shulk is an absolute beast with his new upgrades. A good Shulk player is a scary thing. His sword is just so... big.

I think he's a dark horse candidate for top tier contender.

 

[Nat Goméz]

That side B nerf is actually somewhat significant though. Little Mac frequently needs all the distance he can get.

Pushing him to his doom with windboxes will be easier now.

Yeah of course that's true, but is certainly not that significant considering is just 10% less than usual. And he's not always a situation that he needs 100% of his recovery considering that most of the Little Mac's are used to recover low and he still has a wall jump.

-Windboxes are a nightmare for him. -

 

[epicgordan]

I hope this remains the final patch for quite a while. It's obvious they were using the 3DS version in order to better balance out the overall gameplay in time for the definitive Wii U version to come out. Really, there's only one more thing left to patch up on the 3DS, and that's for DLC integration.

 

[ChampKing]

Mac's aerial Side+B nerf is all the more reason to use his sexy super armor Side+B custom instead. I'm so used to it that I didn't even notice the regular one has shorter distance. Anyway as long as they don't mess with the core parts of his game(tilts, super armor and KO Punch) it isn't going to make much difference.

Also did Diddy get nerfed at all other than the hitsun cancel thing?

 

[NairWizard]

I've also been thinking that Shulk is an absolute beast with his new upgrades. A good Shulk player is a scary thing. His sword is just so... big.

I think he's a dark horse candidate for top tier contender.

Agree, Shulk is really, really good with the boosts. Damage increases all directly boosted his safety on shield too. Shulk's quite a monster now.

The only reason that I think Ike is better is that customs do far more for Ike than for Shulk. How many people here have actually used Close Combat? This thing is an absolute monster of a move. And Tempest is honestly ridiculous; it gets KOs that no move deserves to get so easily, AND pops Ike UP which is quite useful.

edit: Yes, I know I'm underestimating Power Vision; it's quite strong.

 

[Flamecircle]

So, after following this thread for like a hundred pages, I feel comfortable in saying that this game is pretty balanced. There's a somewhat clear section of "top" characters of about 10, but basically the entire cast has been argued to be within top 20. It's all been argued back and forth and back and forth... to no avail.

So why don't we try something else: argue from the bottom up?
Who is clearly below the giant clump of characters that are "pretty good?"

Here are my impressions.


Kinda meh:
DDD: He's decent at spacing still, but with the gordo nerf, DDD's way of covering approach and zoning is significantly worse. This is a nerf I truly don't understand- why is the gordo so eager to betray DDD now? I may be overly harsh again, but I've had no strong impressions of DDD before this, and nobody seemed like they thought he was a contender before.

Kirby: I don't know what kirby has going for him. He has 3 situational B moves, and a bunch of short range a-moves. His jab is surprisingly good, and he has a decent utilt "combo," but that's basically all I'm seeing. Multi jump is nice, but overall, I'd rather play Fox for a rush down character.

Luigi: Not super sure about this one, but I can't find any merit to playing him over any other mid-rangy type, especially with his weaker recovery.


Outclassed:

Dr.Mario: worse than mario because speed is important. Generally outclassed.

Samus: Kinda talked about this before, but too many of her A moves are so worthless. She can kill with... only dair, reliably? Her merits are B-moves and Zair. She can do decently against some characters, but I rate her low because she's generally beaten by reflectors, and outside of Zair Mii gunner outclasses her by having her projectile game and an overall better moveset. So samus might not be that bad, she just has few merits over a generally better choice.

Wii Fit Trainer: Similar merits to samus', but with a slightly different projectile game. She can do well up until the point when she has to stop shooting sun salutations. after that... she's crappy hitbox city. double hitboxes don't matter because they're so short that they'd only catch someone trying to cross her up. Outside of sun salutation, she can only kill with her Bair or her decent edge guarding. Oh, and that grab... *shudders*

DK: Maybe this is a bit harsh. Maybe he can be a good character just by having his bair again. Outside of that though, he has trouble getting in- and he needs to get in- and has no notable buffs. The other reason I have him down here is that I don't think there's much merit to playing him over bowser. I know they're different characters, but they're of similar hitbox size and speed.It's very hard for me to name a single move DK has that Bowser wouldn't rather have his own for, outside of bair, maybe donkey punch, and maybe down-B. So while DK might not be as bad as I'm listing, he's just outclassed, like samus.

Lucina: Outclassed, outside of upsmash and maybe Dair? Not that bad, though.


There's hope in patch 1.0.4:

Olimar: FSmash range increase is pretty huge. If the pikmin AI is better in the WiiU as rumored, then he's got something to work with.

Metaknight: Sword trails match now, so people can finally try to learn the character. Blanket buffs overall and a kill move.

Ike: dear god the blanket buffs. This is like, grandma made this with love blanket buffs.

Zelda: 0.5% buff on the utilt should give her the boost she needs.



That's my list of the bottom. Please point out merits that I am not seeing, I'd love to believe that 4 is more balanced than I assume.

 

[Lavani]

Olimar: FSmash range increase is pretty huge.

And then you realize it's always had that much range.

It's okay, I didn't know that until today either.

 

[NairWizard]

DK: Maybe this is a bit harsh. Maybe he can be a good character just by having his bair again. Outside of that though, he has trouble getting in- and he needs to get in- and has no notable buffs. The other reason I have him down here is that I don't think there's much merit to playing him over bowser. I know they're different characters, but they're of similar hitbox size and speed.It's very hard for me to name a single move DK has that Bowser wouldn't rath

Bowser would love to have DK's Kong Cyclone and Storm Punch. Bowser does have a nice custom in dash slam, but these customs DK's are just ridiculous imo.


DK also has more landing options imo. Down-air and down-b on Bowser are OK but predictable and punishable, far more than DK's d-air at least.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I wonder about Kirby in 1.04 since you brought him up.
Nothings changed for him but at the same time his environment has changed with everyone elses adjustments.
I find him odd as I remain of the perspective that Kirby is dangerous when he gets in and only has a problem in that he can't get in. I think this is even greater emphasized in 1.04 as quite a few "lower" characters got some lag reductions but he was left in the cold. He'll find it harder to get in as a result guys (Hello Ike, even you too Ganon).

Ikes in a good place but...
Im still of the mind that Monado Speed is fantastic.
Im very tempted (and have been practicing of late) to just take Decisive Monado Arts. With the buffs it's got enough KO power to be a staple now and the drawbacks aren't so steep anymore, plus its faster then base Monado Arts.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Since Bowserciding got nerfed I think Dash Klaw > Dash Slam. The waveland and the fact that you get a 0 landing lag air attack are icing on the cake.

 

[NairWizard]

Since Bowserciding got nerfed I think Dash Klaw > Dash Slam. The waveland and the fact that you get a 0 landing lag air attack are icing on the cake.

Command grabs are really good though. Bowserciding was always kind of an icing on the cake kind of thing, since Bowser is a big target and he seldom has less % than his opponent.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Since Bowserciding got nerfed I think Dash Klaw > Dash Slam. The waveland and the fact that you get a 0 landing lag air attack are icing on the cake.

Command grabs go through shields. Honestly I don't think the bowsercide loss is important because he can still get through shields while in the air. If you take Dash claw it's not bad, but I can Shield half your air game like everyone else only you are bowser so enjoy your recovery frames.