Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Nø Ca$h]

the shine will always come out faster than marth's grab. i guess if they dont L cancel then you can grab.

 

[KAOSTAR]

the shine will always come out faster than marth's grab. i guess if they dont L cancel then you can grab.

you can definitely cc and grab fox's nair.

fox can't shine until he lands and l cancels. the nair as an approach hits earlier.

you can shield grab b4 shine if the aerial is early. if its late you can grab after shine.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

grab after getting hit by the shine? cant fox grab after shining you? especially if u cc the shine..

either way fox can just land in back of you and run so u cant really do much.

 

[booshk]

grab after getting hit by the shine? cant fox grab after shining you? especially if u cc the shine..

either way fox can just land in back of you and run so u cant really do much.

@jesiah you cc the nair, and shield grab. don't grab with z, it doesn't work(from my knowledge)


watch mew2king vs toph if you wanna see it used. my youtube doesn't work right now so i can't give any links but off my head m2k does it against toph on battlefield from what i remember.

 

[Strong Badam]

Lol.

Quick lesson in vocabulary...

Polished: perfected or made shiny and smooth; "his polished prose"; "in a freshly ironed dress and polished shoes"; "freshly polished silver"

Not be be confused with...

Polish: the Slavic language of Poland or relating to Poland or its people or culture; "Polish sausage"

I... knew that...? LOL. I got you to post, didn't I?

My peak level of play is scary, but rarely seen as I'm usually not in practice and tend to lack motivation to perform at that level. And as I've stated before, average level of play is far more important than peak. Consistency is everything.

so modest... so humble...

If you're CC grabbing a Fox's nair, they probably aren't approaching right. They need to watch you and nair at the last second and not as soon as Fox is in the air. You can go ahead and CC grab against bad Foxes, but don't assume it'll always work.
Stupid Foxes these days.

 

[booshk]

yeah, sometimes i start getting shined out of the cc when they start catching on
or maybe i'm too slow at times : (

 

[ArcNatural]

after your cc you grab. make sure to release down.

Why would you release down? I always just hold down + Shield + A for CC grabs. No one has ever pointed out that I should release down. What's the reasoning for that?

 

[Niko45]

If they are shining you before you CC grab nair they are nairing extremely late and you could actually start grabbing them out of their short hop before the nair comes out.

By holding down + shield and spamming A you get the CC grab as soon as possible. Shield grabbing is 2 frames slower than regular grabbing though, so maybe you could theoretically CC -> JC grab in place faster? Not really sure since JCing uses up frames too I believe. In any case a couple frames slower isn't a big deal considering the guaranteed speed of mashing A.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Why would you release down? I always just hold down + Shield + A for CC grabs. No one has ever pointed out that I should release down. What's the reasoning for that?

if you use z ppl often get tilts. I can do all of marth's tilts and jab using z. just hit down and on the rising try to tilt. holding down and hitting z is d tilt.

another cool thing you can do-if you cc a move and it makes you slide back or you have momentum you can dash then immediately shield to stop your momentum like a shield stop.

if shield grabbing is 2 frames slower (niko) that means using z is the fastest way to cc grab, but the hardest imo. jc grabbing is 1-3/4 frames slower than a standing grab because you start the grab some place during the jump.

edit: crazy how the easier ways are slower! melee *****.

 

[Strong Badam]

If they are shining you before you CC grab nair they are nairing extremely late and you could actually start grabbing them out of their short hop before the nair comes out.

By holding down + shield and spamming A you get the CC grab as soon as possible. Shield grabbing is 2 frames slower than regular grabbing though, so maybe you could theoretically CC -> JC grab in place faster? Not really sure since JCing uses up frames too I believe. In any case a couple frames slower isn't a big deal considering the guaranteed speed of mashing A.

lol. if they fast fall a nair they're hitting the ground in like 7-8 frames. no, it's not extremely late. fox is not in the air for very long at all when he shorthops.

JC grab uses up at least 1 frame.

Ugh all this frame data is annoying me. Why don't you guys just like try it both ways and see which works better for your level of timing? lol.

 

[Niko45]

What? Only late nair beats CC grab. That's a fact.

 

[Winston]

Yeah, add those 7-8 frames from a regularly timed fastfalled nair to the 7 frame L-cancel, and you have enough time for marth to cc grab.

I'm not sure about asdi down grab, but cc grab should definitely work since it reduces the stun you get.

 

[earla]

reading marth matchup guide vs falco.

says to abuse u, d and f-thow.

what are the applications or combos for f-thow/d-throw?

i know they're to get the opponent off stage + i know fthrow cg -10%. anything else?

also, when falcos off stage going to side b to grab edge. why would u use dtilt instead of shield breaker?

what is best option to use when falco
a) side b's onto stage
b) side b sweetspot edge

thanks so much

 

[JesiahTEG]

Thanks a lot guys.

@ Cactuar- That quote of you above me about average level of play more important than peak...

I am just learning that after 3 1/2 years of playing. It's so unbelievably true.

 

[Tee ay eye]

so

ChivalRuse made a thread in Melee Discussion listing crouch-cancel percentages, but it's not complete. I decided to go ahead and just test all relevant moves you might want to CC with Marth and their percentages.

All these percentages are BEFORE the move connects, and are done with a completely fresh attack. Assume that all these attacks hit with the initial hitbox unless stated otherwise.

The percentages might be sorta rough because I don't have pixel perfect spacing or care enough to discern between hitboxes that make the same sound effect, but I tried my best to account for differing hitboxes.

Just because you can crouch cancel doesn't mean you can punish it. There's still some stun time and sliding, so these percents purely tell you whether or not you'll get knocked down.

Good followups out of CC:
grab, dtilt, f-smash, roll (mew2king does this sh*t ALL the time)

I don't feel like doing any smash attacks cuz i can't c-stick in training mode.

vs Falcon:
N-air (both hits): 79-80% depending on spacing (fresh first hit does 5-6%)
N-air (second hit only): 85%
Knee: 34%
Stomp: 30%
Raptor boost: 44%
Falcon kick: 49%
U-air (****): 67%
U-air (feet): 74%
Gentleman (all 3 hits): 98%
D-tilt: 91%

vs Sheik:
Dash attack (sweetspot): 65%
F-tilt: 85%
F-air: 77%
N-air: I don't feel like doing this because of the hitboxes and timing. I don't think you'll ever get hit by a startup nair when you're on the ground, and it's probably something higher than Sheik should be letting you live.
B-air (tipper): 59% (you probably won't be getting hit by any of these)
D-tilt: 109%

vs Fox:
Dash attack: 106%
F-tilt: Higher than he'll be using it on you
U-tilt: 40%
D-tilt: 54%
N-air: 75%
B-air (foot): 65%

vs Falco:
Dash attack: 83%
F-tilt: 114%
U-tilt: 60%
D-tilt: 38%
N-air: 75%
B-air (foot): 65%

vs Peach
Sweetspot dash attack: 38%
F-air: 38%
N-air: 54%
B-air: 71%

vs Marth
D-tilt: somewhere above 130. It doesn't really even matter at this point, so I won't find the exact percent.
Dash attack (middle): 63%
Dash attack (tipper): 57%
F-air (tipper): 70%
F-air (middle): 113%

Just re-iterating, I credit ChivalRuse for the idea, I just took it selfishly and applied it to when it's pertinent to myself.

Ugh this is so tedious

I'm think I've done enough attacks. Everything else beyond this is sorta superfluous (hell, about half of it already is superfluous)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

<3 tai

 

[ChivalRuse]

what are the applications or combos for f-thow/d-throw?

i know they're to get the opponent off stage + i know fthrow cg -10%. anything else?

Assuming f-throw puts them off the stage, it combos into d-tilt or f-smash (at higher percents) if they DI in. Alternatively, you can u-throw -> spike if you anticipate some form of away DI.

If you're remotely near the edge, with your back to it, d-throw is great at low percents. It happens fast, so most people don't have time to DI away or even tech. If they miss the tech or dare to tech in place, tipper -> easy gimp. I've noticed that often if you hesitate for a moment before d-throwing (intentionally or not), spacies tend to techroll in. Some people are good at reacting to techs, but I usually just go with my gut.

also, when falcos off stage going to side b to grab edge. why would u use dtilt instead of shield breaker?

D-tilt's two main advantages over shield breaker are that it comes out faster and that it has less post-lag. Shield breaker is great if you have time to set it up, but it's hard to use on the fly.

what is best option to use when falco
a) side b's onto stage

If you're already at the edge, jab is ideal. Falco will drop below the stage; then you can do the "utmost".

b) side b sweetspot edge

1. You can just grab the edge first.
2, D-tilt will hit if he doesn't sweetspot perfectly.
3. Shield breaker hits below the stage, but requires good timing.
4. The back of dair also hits low enough. More flashy than practical though.

 

[Tee ay eye]

the shine will always come out faster than marth's grab. i guess if they dont L cancel then you can grab.

if fox nairs too high on your shield, you can grab him regardless of L-cancelling.

edit: nevermind, i didn't read that you were talking about crouch cancelling, not shielding. either way, i think it's actually possible for marth to CC grab fox's nair ONLY if Fox hits with a later part of the sex kick, i.e. if they fullhop nair.

 

[Tee ay eye]

magus magus420

or anyone else that knows the answer to this question

how do you get the most distance out of smash DI-ing Fox's u-air?

Kevin told me that he does this weird quarter/semi circle with his control stick, Zhu told me that he just dashdances really quickly.

Does anyone know the most effective way that doesn't involve actually *learning* the timing?

 

[Jun.]

i wouldn't try to shield grab fox. ever.

at even a decent level of play most foxes aren't gonna get shield grabbed. I guess if you know FOR SURE its too high but even then the risk I don't think is worth it.

 

[Tee ay eye]

yeah, it's generally better to not get stuck in your shield vs fox at all

im just saying, if it happens....

roll or wd oos probably work better. or dair oos (which works surprisingly well against falco's shield pressure)

 

[Jun.]

i think falco is even scarier =/

 

[Strong Badam]

magus magus420

or anyone else that knows the answer to this question

how do you get the most distance out of smash DI-ing Fox's u-air?

Kevin told me that he does this weird quarter/semi circle with his control stick, Zhu told me that he just dashdances really quickly.

Does anyone know the most effective way that doesn't involve actually *learning* the timing?

first step to getting out of it is to DI behind fox. hold the control stick toward Fox when he grabs you.
he needs to run toward you as well as take 1 frame to turn around.
then he needs to jump + possibly double jump and then uair.
at this point, hold both sticks again toward Fox. he will need to jump in your direction and have momentum going that way, and you'll DI in opposite direction that he's moving.
C-stick gives you 1 frame of smash DI, Control stick gives you normal DI.

 

[Tee ay eye]

i couldve sworn that control stick works for ASDI inputs too, it's just that c-stick has priority

magus
magus420

 

[KAOSTAR]

i couldve sworn that control stick works for ASDI inputs too, it's just that c-stick has priority

magus
magus420

correct. c stick allows you to do things like sdi down and in and also cc using human abilities.

you literally get 1 input of di with asdi, half distance of a sdi input.

 

[Strong Badam]

magus is currently livestreaming, i'll bug him after he's done about this k tai?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

tai, i learned the timing. I feel that thats the best way because quarter circle is even less accurate for me.

Its not really important if you SDI correctly, but zoso told me i should hold cstick the way im planning to sdi. Sometimes you SDI but still get hit

 

[ArcNatural]

magus magus420

or anyone else that knows the answer to this question

how do you get the most distance out of smash DI-ing Fox's u-air?

Kevin told me that he does this weird quarter/semi circle with his control stick, Zhu told me that he just dashdances really quickly.

Does anyone know the most effective way that doesn't involve actually *learning* the timing?

Dashdancing is a little harder imo because usually you can't get full DI left or right then dashdance. This was how I first learned to do it cause this is how KDJ does it. Basically in order to SDI out of upair you need to be able to dash dance with Sheik. This will get the SDI almost all the time.

I just do the quarter-circle now. Hold DI in w/e direction, quarter circle to the other direction when fox is about halfway to you. Easy as pie.

 

[Tee ay eye]

quarter circle or semi circle to the other direction?

 

[Niko45]

Yea Arc please elaborate. Are you saying semi-circle from L to R and if so upwards or downwards?

 

[I.B]

I wanna know how Azen does it. Watching his matches vs PC's Fox @ VLS and seeing him literally moving downwards during the 1st hit and avoiding the 2nd hit is ****ing mind-boggling.

 

[KAOSTAR]

this should help you guys understand rotational di a lil better. its different than smashing directions, its alot worse.

Rock crock posted this: can you confirm or deny? I was just a bit confused when I read your .6 w of Jiggs for SDI and .3 for ASDI

"Smash DI in the corner directions moves you farther than in cardinal directions. That's just the way it is. Weird."
"the corners move you both farther horizontally and farther vertically than do the cardinal directions. If you're using the c-stick for ASDI, it should be in the corners."

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/516492-super-smash-bros-melee?search=tech

He may have gotten that impression from TAS things that sometimes do a SDI each frame by alternating between diagonals, but that's done to satisfy the stick movement needed between each SDI rather then each one actually going further that way. If you want to go to the right you can't SDI full right every frame or you'd just be holding it, and going full right and skipping every other frame is less distance than alternating diagonals. Alternating between like 10 degrees above full right to 10 below full right would actually get you further to the right than either of those.

But yeah, I'm pretty certain a diagonal SDI doesn't cover any more total distance than a cardinal one, and it definitely doesn't cover more distance in that cardinal direction (it would in fact be less effective if you want to move in a cardinal direction).

Lol yea I didnt think about SDI the same direction every frame is holding it. You still need that 1 frame to input the button. but yes thank you makes perfect sense.

Do you know how many directions the GC controller has on its stick? I guess more importantly is 10 degrees how far you need to move to get a seperate input?

There are more than you'd want to try counting really. You basically move at the near exact angle you are pointing the stick when it is triggered (same with the very beginning part of an airdodge's movement). It's not limited to a small number of directions like aimable up-Bs.

The 10 degrees thing just comes from where SDIs can trigger from rotation. It's based on 4 specific points located very close to each cardinal direction for clockwise, and another 4 opposite of those for counterclockwise. To trigger a SDI by rotating along the outside you need to cross over an arrow for that particular direction.

The difference between them is much smaller if you're trying to go in an overall cardinal direction (about 20 degrees) and can go closer to a straight line with the SDIs, but it's much greater if you want to move diagonally (about 70 degrees).

Oh, very interesting. So are you saying that Rotating from straight up to straight down will get you the initial up, + 2 arrow points=3 SDI or do the 8 ways count also = a total of 7 SDI inputs?

And if it were frame perfect could you still SDI in ANY direction neutral and do another input, or are those 16 points the only ones in which you can SDI at all?

Meaning its just harder to SDI diagonally just in general, and the best way to SDI to the right most would be smashing right, and alternate your movement to each arrow?

sorry its so many questions

Yeah, if you smash up, then rotate to straight down you can get 3 SDIs (the actual directions you go on the 2nd/3rd SDIs will depend on where it's pointing on the frame the game sees you've gone past an arrow point).

If you go neutral inbetween you can SDI in any of the like 9001+ directions. Going from neutral you will be able to trigger a SDI by moving the stick into any part of the orange area. Also the distance you are pointing the stick doesn't change the distance (there's no slight SDI); it just takes the overall angle/slope. You can SDI in tons of directions through rotation as well, just not those that are within the same quadrant you're currently in. Entering a different quadrant is essentially what you're doing by passing over those arrows, which might be easier to understand/visualize than the arrows.

It's harder to move in a diagonal direction with multiple SDIs because it's the farthest away from the quadrants' borders/arrows which you need to go to to get another SDI without going back to neutral, so the directions you end up getting out of those SDIs every frame are far off from the direction you actually want to go in (going up, right, up, right... compared to right&slightly down, right&slightly up, right&slightly down... when trying to go to the right).

 

[Tee ay eye]

i didn't feel like reading it (i probably will tomorrow when i'm not tired)

but based on that, what is the most effective rotational SDI input against Fox's uair?

 

[earla]

e been practicing cg on fox on level 1. i'm trying to understand why i mess it up so frequently.

sometimes i u-throw and they come down directly ontop of me and i miss the grab, if i pivot i still miss the grab.

generally happens somewhere between 20-30.

in game vs real people do i just need to train my reaction speed up so i can react if they DI left or right or no DI

i play melee pal version as im from australia.

any tips would be much appreciated on getting a solid cg game 100 %. thanks so much

 

[Strong Badam]

These are the %s you don't have to move to do CGs with Marth vs Fox
0-16 Forward DI (sometimes 16 will miss though, but I think usually you will get them)
0-20 no DI (sometimes you will get them at 20 or 21 or so but the soonest you can miss is 20)
0-28 back DI

for up tilt vs Fox without needing to move
0-35 Forward DI (sometimes you will miss at 35 though, I've even had phantom hit bull**** before, but after 35 you need to walk forward no matter what. I think walk forward up tilt works to like 50 something?)
no DI the lowest you can up throw up tilt to knock them UP is like 23 I think that's unrelated though kinda, although honestly I usually do it at about 27/28+ (by the way vs Fox I usually do reverse up tilt because it seems better and it's harder to DI out of assuming they don't DI because you can still dash grab them even if they DI it, while if you did normal up tilt after not DIing up throw all the Fox has to do is DI behind Marth and he can land and tech before Marth can grab him)
0-50 back DI


for Falco
0-15??? (I know it's around like 13-16 or something idk, it's actually the same or less than Fox) Forward DI
0-25 no DI
0-31 back DI

for up tilt vs Falco
0-42 Forward DI
not sure for the no DI thing (unrelated thing see the Fox note above) I think it's like 30 something + but again this isn't exactly related to the "don't need to move" thing but more like a "don't need to move until it knocks them over on the ground instead of just completely missing" type of thing
0-54 back DI

up throw tipper F smash works on Fox at like low mid 40s + IIRC, and lasts up to as long as like 80% or so maybe even 90 if you don't DI. The easiest average % you are looking for vs Fox is 60%, although it works before and after that by about 15/20% obviously. Up throw take a baby step forward and then if they don't DI you reverse tipper F smash, then C stick if they decide to DI the up throw. The more you do this the better you will get at the timing and understanding, I just gave you a basic guideline. Falco is similar but add the %s a little higher by like 5 or 10% prolly closer to 5 (that's just a random guess) and there you have it.

Also you see my vid vs Shiz where I tried to do up throw Fair to Bair to F throw to Dair (that works I tested it on computers but I know a human would DI in the F throw lol, or I could just F smash tipper) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW-di...e=channel_page at 1:02 it begins. Well, I made that up recently but my mistake was wavedashing before the grab - I should have just done a dash grab then F throw dair (or F throw F smash or F Throw down tilt to edge hog then bair).

ANOTHER Mistake at that vid at that same time is after he did the tech roll, I could have gotten him with a dash JC grab behind me before he would be able to shine or dodge, but I suck and got stuck in my turning around animation

--

you can't up throw Falco at 0% if he DIs behind you. He will always land. On the flip side if he DIs forward you can get him at 0% with a standing regrab, but it's the opposite for Marth's forward throw. F Throw regrab works if he DIs in but with away DI Falco can escape. Lol it's kind of a guessing game. I usually down throw at 0, or whatever direction the edge is, then down tilt it.

with no DI they can't escape till like 80%+ lol. Probably more. Once they get to like 70% + just do SH uair a few times. At like 90 do up throw (let them DI) then go for Fair + Dair (if they are smart they will not DI the Fair or DI away)

also near the edge down throw to dash-off-stage Dair actually combos at mid/high % if they DI in xD




there's my old post

here ya go~

 

[earla]

These are the %s you don't have to move to do CGs with Marth vs Fox
0-16 Forward DI (sometimes 16 will miss though, but I think usually you will get them)
0-20 no DI (sometimes you will get them at 20 or 21 or so but the soonest you can miss is 20)
0-28 back DI

i don't quite understand this^
can someone kindly explain this more simply? i don't understand the DI + number relating to that?

which %'s do i have to move then? im confused.

is this the same for melee pal version?

 

[stelzig]

From 0 to 16 percent you don't have to move when they DI forward. After that you do need to move.
From 0-20 percent you don't have to move if they don't DI. After that you do need to do that pivot.
From 0-28 percent you don't have to move if they DI behind you (obviously you need to turn around though). After that you do need to move.

(the percents are their percents and not yours obviously)

Should be the same for PAL... Though i never really actively looked out for when i needed to dash for the grab, except for the pivot on no DI.

 

[earla]

from 0-20, what do you mean by a pivot? turn on the spot regrab? or a dash dance regrab?


thanks

 

[Tee ay eye]

i didn't feel like reading it (i probably will tomorrow when i'm not tired)

but based on that, what is the most effective rotational SDI input against Fox's uair?

xzczxczcxzcxcxzczx

 

[Strong Badam]

from 0-20, what do you mean by a pivot? turn on the spot regrab? or a dash dance regrab?


thanks

specifically, a pivot is a dashdance regrab where you grab on the first frame of the second dash to where you don't move from that spot.