Dart!
Smash Master
wait for the get up uptilt at below 90 and follow them up the platform with a rising uair then fsmash at around 100
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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy
- Thread starter Cactuar
- Start date
Niko45
Smash Master
1) After dtilts, follow with grabs. Tech chase with grabs. Grab after baiting a sidestep if you manage to scare them while you dash dance. Dash away and grab if Marth ever tries to approach with an aerial (he shouldn't).
2) Up throw -> tipper at 60-85%. Basically up throw -> anything to get them off stage and then edgeguard well. Make sure you shut down side B first and then react if they up B.
3) Rising up airs are great. So is up tilt at lower %. There are often moments where fox is laying there for a second as you wait to potentially up tilt him again. During this moment you can also waveland up and try to grab him as he rolls up (rarely will they get up attack here because it looks like you are just going to wait and hit them from underneath the platform).
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Marth dittos require you to be good at two things: dash dancing and mindgames.
Combos help too.
Combos help too.
Fortress | Sveet
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1. If they jump, run at him and shield. Grab when he misses his spacing.
2. hit him with anything or get him off the stage.
3. sh and wait. you can do a uair at any time to cover all their options and if that fails you can do another sh uair or utilt or fsmash ect
2. hit him with anything or get him off the stage.
3. sh and wait. you can do a uair at any time to cover all their options and if that fails you can do another sh uair or utilt or fsmash ect
Niko45
Smash Master
Don't forget DI. Bad DI in marth dittos is a great way to get 4 stocked in about 30 seconds.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Bad DI + Marth Dittos = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W7I9Q6mEHg
ThePoet
Smash Journeyman
What's a good way to punish mid-air counter spam?
Dre the Ace
Smash Ace
Couple questions:
1. What can I do when Falco keeps on pressuring? I keep shielding but I can't really do anything. If I try and shield grab, I get shined.
2. Which way do I properly DI when being grabbed by Falcon?
1. What can I do when Falco keeps on pressuring? I keep shielding but I can't really do anything. If I try and shield grab, I get shined.
2. Which way do I properly DI when being grabbed by Falcon?
mers
Smash Ace
Hit them after the counter ends. Bait them into countering.
Stay on the ground and CC a lot, then kill them.
1. If he does an aerial on the top of your shield, you can grab. Otherwise, roll or wavedash out. Try wavesmashing and stuff. Mix it up.
2. Down and away if you expect dthrow, and just away if you expect uthrow. Know the percents that he can kill with uthrow/dthrow to knee, so that you know which one to prepare for. But try not to get grabbed by Falcon.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
don't get in the habit of rolling, we all do it, but just don't do it.
wd away out of shield, fair oos, up b oos. mix these up and shield di away and/or loosen your shield up a bit and angle it to throw his timing off.
this was@ dude asking about falco
wd away out of shield, fair oos, up b oos. mix these up and shield di away and/or loosen your shield up a bit and angle it to throw his timing off.
this was@ dude asking about falco
Jun.
Smash Lord
in my experience, there is no way to beat a falco that is pressuring you. Just think about it: Falco has lasers and ungrabbable aerials because of the shine. If he's pressuring, you're losing.
Position yourself in an area where he can't shoot lasers or constantly put the Falco in range of any tilts or aerials so that he doesn't pressure.
Basically just pressure him before he pressures you
Position yourself in an area where he can't shoot lasers or constantly put the Falco in range of any tilts or aerials so that he doesn't pressure.
Basically just pressure him before he pressures you
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
thats terrible advice lol.
falco is going to pressure you in some way everytime he approaches. you have to learn to deal with it. I do think its good to be relentless when you get the chance, make your punishes count!
lasers at a distance are annoying, but marth can handle them. power shield on the go, or shield then wd oos. jumping over them is an option but more of a cop out.
you can angle your shield to make them potentially miss an L cancel or mess up their FF. that or if they aerial early you can grab b4 the shine granted the spacing is there.(shield di to get closer)
if they aerial late, the shine is given, but you can grab after it.
at mid percents you can up b oos in places you can grab but it has more speed and range.(can be used to escape to a platform)
if they leave those openings(they will, its your job to punish) fair oos to turn your defense into offense.
if **** gets hectic wd oos away and reset.
the better you are at dealing with pressure the better off you will do against falco.
falco is going to pressure you in some way everytime he approaches. you have to learn to deal with it. I do think its good to be relentless when you get the chance, make your punishes count!
lasers at a distance are annoying, but marth can handle them. power shield on the go, or shield then wd oos. jumping over them is an option but more of a cop out.
you can angle your shield to make them potentially miss an L cancel or mess up their FF. that or if they aerial early you can grab b4 the shine granted the spacing is there.(shield di to get closer)
if they aerial late, the shine is given, but you can grab after it.
at mid percents you can up b oos in places you can grab but it has more speed and range.(can be used to escape to a platform)
if they leave those openings(they will, its your job to punish) fair oos to turn your defense into offense.
if **** gets hectic wd oos away and reset.
the better you are at dealing with pressure the better off you will do against falco.
Niko45
Smash Master
I kind of agree, because all of that is good advice for dealing with pressure, but I also disagree. When a good Falco gets you in pressure, they have control of the situation and you'll probably get hit (too many mindgames available for them at this point).
Learning to stay out of Falco's pressure as much as possible is much more key overall imo.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
im not disagreeing that staying out of pressure is important if you can. or even that ultimately its your key to victory.
but all falco needs is to make you shield.
they have incredible mix ups. but its not guaranteed. the point is you need to limit the damage you end up taking. its more likely you will get pressured than not.
but its not perfect, you gotta handle that pressure.
if I had to choose 1 ideally, ability to not get pressured.
if I had to choose 1 realistically, ability to deal with pressure.
telling ppl that if you get pressured there is nothing you can do about it is bad advice. it would be better if you give somebody ways to avoid pressure.
but the dude asked how to deal with being stuck in my shield.
the response was, its best to not get pressured....
bad advice imo and also not even relevant to the question since it didn't address a single one of the issues he had. realistically YOU WILL GET PRESSURED, now when in that situation how do I deal with it.
read my post ^_^
but all falco needs is to make you shield.
they have incredible mix ups. but its not guaranteed. the point is you need to limit the damage you end up taking. its more likely you will get pressured than not.
but its not perfect, you gotta handle that pressure.
if I had to choose 1 ideally, ability to not get pressured.
if I had to choose 1 realistically, ability to deal with pressure.
telling ppl that if you get pressured there is nothing you can do about it is bad advice. it would be better if you give somebody ways to avoid pressure.
but the dude asked how to deal with being stuck in my shield.
the response was, its best to not get pressured....
bad advice imo and also not even relevant to the question since it didn't address a single one of the issues he had. realistically YOU WILL GET PRESSURED, now when in that situation how do I deal with it.
read my post ^_^
Niko45
Smash Master
Yea def you have to be able to deal with it inevitably. IIRC, you play with SW so ur gonna be in more pressure than me lol.
Edit: Don't ask me to actually read anything. I'd rather just throw out statements and hope they're relevant (at least this early in the AM).
Edit: Don't ask me to actually read anything. I'd rather just throw out statements and hope they're relevant (at least this early in the AM).
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
lol, good **** all around!
Rappster
Smash Ace
amen brotha.Yea def you have to be able to deal with it inevitably. IIRC, you play with SW so ur gonna be in more pressure than me lol.
Edit: Don't ask me to actually read anything. I'd rather just throw out statements and hope they're relevant (at least this early in the AM).
i'm with you all the way right there
Dart!
Smash Master
If you have problems with being stuck in shield pressure you probably aren't utilizing all your options in the shield. other than OoS i mean. if you're getting stuck it probably means you're holding full shield ALL THE TIME.
before now thats what i would do and against good falcos i don't play often it would work half the time, against my friend who plays with me daily i get ***** for it. i decided to use light shield when he pillars and full shield when he smash attacks and now i poop on him all day.
know your shield
btw i've noticed that people DIing fthrow to avoid fsmash can be hit by dash up b if you time it just right. i haven't noticed anyone talk about this and i'm not saying i discovered it but i want to know what you guys think of it tactically.
it mainly works on falcons for myself, sometimes puffs too O_o
before now thats what i would do and against good falcos i don't play often it would work half the time, against my friend who plays with me daily i get ***** for it. i decided to use light shield when he pillars and full shield when he smash attacks and now i poop on him all day.
know your shield
btw i've noticed that people DIing fthrow to avoid fsmash can be hit by dash up b if you time it just right. i haven't noticed anyone talk about this and i'm not saying i discovered it but i want to know what you guys think of it tactically.
it mainly works on falcons for myself, sometimes puffs too O_o
joeplicate
Smash Master
question!
what are you marth mains afraid of foxes doing?
rationale:
I want to start doing these things!
what are you marth mains afraid of foxes doing?
rationale:
I want to start doing these things!
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
Its really ****ing gay to have to approach fox when you dont want to.=laser and close in on space
Getting grabbed makes me feel helpless. It sucks **** to be on a fresh stock and get grabbed once into like 3 uairs leaving me above 60 percent in a matter of seconds.
believe it or not, when fox gets close I think marth players feel the need to attack, ive seen circle jumping or dashing and WDing back be really annoying.
foxes that kno its not the best idea to nair shine but to nair combo or waveshine into upsmash/grab or nair combo make me nervous.
Marth is best with retreating fair-back that ***** into a corner, or make him come to you. being pushed towards the edge is very uncomfortable and makes you feel like you are getting wrecked. Try a couple drill shines.
Getting grabbed makes me feel helpless. It sucks **** to be on a fresh stock and get grabbed once into like 3 uairs leaving me above 60 percent in a matter of seconds.
believe it or not, when fox gets close I think marth players feel the need to attack, ive seen circle jumping or dashing and WDing back be really annoying.
foxes that kno its not the best idea to nair shine but to nair combo or waveshine into upsmash/grab or nair combo make me nervous.
Marth is best with retreating fair-back that ***** into a corner, or make him come to you. being pushed towards the edge is very uncomfortable and makes you feel like you are getting wrecked. Try a couple drill shines.
Jun.
Smash Lord
I'm afraid of fox's stage control. Being able to be at the advantageous place anytime and forcing opponents into bad areas with lasers.
fox's speed which he can use to punish Marth's empty aerials is also pretty scary.
fox's speed which he can use to punish Marth's empty aerials is also pretty scary.
KILLA.FOR.CASH.
Smash Champion
hate it when foxes camp the platforms like lunin
**** is hella hard to get around lol
also camping on pokemon stadium is pretty ****ty
**** is hella hard to get around lol
also camping on pokemon stadium is pretty ****ty
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
It's ok when you know they won't punish it. But you can usually find a better answer for the situation.
shadow1moon
Smash Journeyman
could you give some examples?
I roll a lot on platforms when they are there too, or i am getting charged at.
I roll a lot on platforms when they are there too, or i am getting charged at.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
On a platform, rolling is even less viable. Rolling away leaves you virtually still in front of them ... and rolling behind was never that good in the first place. You have better escape options in:
1. Light shielding. Strong attacks will cause you to slide to the edge of the platform and drop down unscathed.
2. Let an attack hit your shield. The average space animal can't shield pressure as well on a platform. Wavedash out of shield and fast fall to the ground.
3. Just jump out of your shield. Some people are smart and will read your jump. But it works more often.
If someone is rushing you down, rather than rolling, it's better to stand your ground. Jab and side-b can stop someone running straight at you. Sometimes you don't have time though. Run as far toward them or away from them as you can in time, then shield as late as possible. Wait for them to mess up shield pressure and react accordingly. Shield grab, wavedash out of shield, and aerial out of shield are your main choices.
1. Light shielding. Strong attacks will cause you to slide to the edge of the platform and drop down unscathed.
2. Let an attack hit your shield. The average space animal can't shield pressure as well on a platform. Wavedash out of shield and fast fall to the ground.
3. Just jump out of your shield. Some people are smart and will read your jump. But it works more often.
If someone is rushing you down, rather than rolling, it's better to stand your ground. Jab and side-b can stop someone running straight at you. Sometimes you don't have time though. Run as far toward them or away from them as you can in time, then shield as late as possible. Wait for them to mess up shield pressure and react accordingly. Shield grab, wavedash out of shield, and aerial out of shield are your main choices.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
I hate you
shadow1moon
Smash Journeyman
Would a side tilt be more effective when they are charging if you can get a tipper? since the knockback will be greater then the poke, or a side b. and you could have the time to get a shff'l
fair in, then continue on with your rampage .
Or after the tipper wd to them and grab and do something, what i dont know...
Uthrow and then nair? what would be a good thing to do there?
fair in, then continue on with your rampage .
Or after the tipper wd to them and grab and do something, what i dont know...
Uthrow and then nair? what would be a good thing to do there?
Niko45
Smash Master
So I'm really finding a lot of utility lately for reverse ftilts (Just ftilting the direction behind you). Seems to catch people a lot. Any thoughts?
joeplicate
Smash Master
Ryuker
Smash Lord
Mind being more specific?
. Like are they behind you, are you using it for baiting etc.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
what do you do when fox is laser camping you and he jumps over you when you try to approach? i feel marth is too slow to call the jump with a uair without putting himself at ridiculous risk
should you just get close to him to pressure him into jumping, and then not let him get back to the ground when he goes up?
pretend this is on dreamland and he's camping under the side platform, and he just runs to those. can you just sh aerials and hit him? im not sure.
should you just get close to him to pressure him into jumping, and then not let him get back to the ground when he goes up?
pretend this is on dreamland and he's camping under the side platform, and he just runs to those. can you just sh aerials and hit him? im not sure.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
same with falco
im not sure what to do against him either when he camps lasers all day and jumps over you with a dair or more lasers when you try to get at him.
im also not sure what to do when falco is like, just outside of tipper range shooting SHLs in place. it feels that any approach you can do will be stopped with lasers or a reaction nair or some bull****. im thinking of getting closer to bait him and shield, but idk.
im not sure what to do against him either when he camps lasers all day and jumps over you with a dair or more lasers when you try to get at him.
im also not sure what to do when falco is like, just outside of tipper range shooting SHLs in place. it feels that any approach you can do will be stopped with lasers or a reaction nair or some bull****. im thinking of getting closer to bait him and shield, but idk.
Ryuker
Smash Lord
for fox:
I think you'll gain more by catching them where they land instead of catching them mid air. They want you to do that. If they double jump follow them and be where they will land. Try to close the space so they have less options to retreat to.
falco:
same.
I don't really know a good answer for the falco stand just outside of tipper range shooting lasers thing. I think maybe crouch cancel lasers/shield +wavedash and try to get closer or go back further. You shouldn't attack when your out of range only when there in. But easier said then done ofc and I have the same problem vs good falco's but that's cause they mix up really fast.
I think you'll gain more by catching them where they land instead of catching them mid air. They want you to do that. If they double jump follow them and be where they will land. Try to close the space so they have less options to retreat to.
falco:
same.
I don't really know a good answer for the falco stand just outside of tipper range shooting lasers thing. I think maybe crouch cancel lasers/shield +wavedash and try to get closer or go back further. You shouldn't attack when your out of range only when there in. But easier said then done ofc and I have the same problem vs good falco's but that's cause they mix up really fast.
Fortress | Sveet
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Are you talking about platform stages or FD, tai?
you can definitely call the jump with a uair, what i find annoying is on platform stages when they jump to the middle platform and i cover the attacking option and they simply move to the top platform. Then we start the "im gonna wait until you attack me" game... though i have bottom stage so it usually works in my favor... still boring tho.
they can only jump over you if you approach to closely to them. never try to attack with marth, just close space.
you can definitely call the jump with a uair, what i find annoying is on platform stages when they jump to the middle platform and i cover the attacking option and they simply move to the top platform. Then we start the "im gonna wait until you attack me" game... though i have bottom stage so it usually works in my favor... still boring tho.
they can only jump over you if you approach to closely to them. never try to attack with marth, just close space.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I find that a good strategy is to focus on Fox's ground options: dash attack, grab, and SHFFL'd nair/dair (which I consider ground attacks since he can do them extremely fast).
If Fox full jumps, you can react to pretty much anything he does. If he goes for a platform, he surrenders a lot of options. All he can do is the typical dropthrough, run off, and running SH aerials as far as threatening you goes. If he runs away to the top platform ... well, he's putting himself strictly above you, which pretty much guarantees you can gauge what he's does before he can get back to the ground to hit you (and prepare accordingly).
The thing about Falco is that Marth can actually catch up to him. I actually have more trouble dealing with rushdown Falcos than the campy ones because when he's on the defensive, you just need a read or two to get a hit + momentum/a grab. When Falco approaches you with well spaced lasers, it's challenging to not get pinned down in shield eventually, and somehow he always manages to land that shine. Powershield -> grabs and anti-laser aerials out of shield don't work forever.
Now if Falco doesn't approach, it's not too bad. I feel like usually one running shield gets you close within proximity to wavedash out of shield -> dtilt/jab/fsmash Falco if he decides to fire a second laser. If you sense that he's going to aim for your shield with a SHFFL instead, you can usually react to it with wavedash back -> punish of your choice.
Why do you feel like Falco jumping above you is an effective method of evasion? Falco's jump is higher and slower than Fox's. You can dash dance and react to his spacing. However, if he uses platforms well to enhance his laser game, again, it's just a matter of getting a read on where he'll laser, and you should be able to find an appropriate answer.
Fortress | Sveet
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Spaced grabs are one of marth's best tools because they can't be CC'd and they have great frame advantage and not too much lag. I think one of the things that gets a lot of us into problems is trying to spam it. Don't forget the power of mixups. Even if you only mix is up a quarter of the time it will slow their reaction to grab semi combos like dtilt->grab and fair->grab. Next time those combos start failing just dtilt->wait or ftilt->wait. You take a small gamble that they might challenge your frame advantage but you gain a lot of insight into the individual's thoughts.
Niko45
Smash Master
This is actually really huge imo. Understanding when you have real combos and pseudo combos makes a huge difference. Other examples could be opting not to DJ uair or fair combo when you know you can't follow up after that. It's better to bait a DJ or a nair combo breaker (depending on char) and then punish with more follow ups afterwards.
earla
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2008
- Messages
- 1,422
what are marths safest options from the ledge to get back onto stage?
how safe are ledgehop aerials and when r they used most effectively? nair, fair, uair< which is safest? cheers
is it generally best to DI behind foxes dair to avoid being shine combo'd?? how do you DI multihit moves correctly, mash the c-stick + main stick in a direction at the same time?
who are the best current marth players?
how safe are ledgehop aerials and when r they used most effectively? nair, fair, uair< which is safest? cheers
is it generally best to DI behind foxes dair to avoid being shine combo'd?? how do you DI multihit moves correctly, mash the c-stick + main stick in a direction at the same time?
who are the best current marth players?