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[Ryuker]

watching amsah marth cg remen fox

1. at around 33% amsah u-throws then dash dances (then is facing other direction) to regrab fox. couldn't amsah just pivot and regrab normally? or is there a purpose for dash dance regrabs at certain %'s to keep the cg going?
s

I think he does it to avoid a possible attack by remen. So just in case he attacks he's away but he turns around fast enough to grab him if he doesn't.

 

[Ocho(*8*)]

The problem I always have with regular stand-up is that even though its quicker than most people expect, the end result is them hitting my shield, which knocks me right back onto the ledge.

I don't suppose this problem could be solved by tilting your shield away from the ledge, could it?

Just wondering because i know that for stuff like lightshield edgehog tilting towards the ledge helps you fall off and here we want the opposite effect.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah that'd be sick strongbad, but i meant more from like getup situation. Also it beats most of falcon's approaches (especially the reverse side)

 

[Dart!]

Hmm, but whenever i try to jump out for him he usually just spaces himself for enough away until he's safe and low enough to sweetspot with the grapple (which is why i just wait for him to do it and i'll runoff fair on reaction). Maybe I just jump out too early, it's not like i've never Bair'd him before heh. I'll try it when i see him next week. Thanks

wavedash off stage shield breaker. the tink special

 

[earla]

ok. opponent is behind you. you're in shield.

when would SH dair OOS be better then FH dair OOS vice versa?

also what does DAIR OOS generally combo into best?

thanks

 

[Jun.]

opponent behind you = disadvantage for marth

FH or SH choice should be dependent on whether or not there is a safe platform which you can jump to. Marth gameplan should be to constantly keep the opponent either in front or above you so I would observe my surroundings and retreat according to reset with or without a dair OOS.

marth's weight also makes it quite easy to ledge cancel so if you wanna be all techy you could FH dair OOS then ledge cancel it on the platform to w/e you want from there

and i don't think you should be so much worried about combo'ing from your dair OOS as much as resetting the field so that you can be positioned advantageously. Marth isn't a very good character if viewed from a combo standpoint imo. More of a gimper in the tier list.

 

[stelzig]

wavedash off stage shield breaker. the tink special

My reaction needs to be faster for that though, but yeah maybe

 

[Winston]

opponent behind you = disadvantage for marth

FH or SH choice should be dependent on whether or not there is a safe platform which you can jump to. Marth gameplan should be to constantly keep the opponent either in front or above you so I would observe my surroundings and retreat according to reset with or without a dair OOS.

marth's weight also makes it quite easy to ledge cancel so if you wanna be all techy you could FH dair OOS then ledge cancel it on the platform to w/e you want from there

and i don't think you should be so much worried about combo'ing from your dair OOS as much as resetting the field so that you can be positioned advantageously. Marth isn't a very good character if viewed from a combo standpoint imo. More of a gimper in the tier list.

I agree with the part that Marth should try to keep the opponent in front, but if you happen to be in the situation where they hit your shield with a laggy move from behind it's worth considering the dair oos.

I definitely disagree with not focusing on combos with Marth though. On fastfallers Marth has the ability to follow up almost any hit, and any opportunity is invaluable. Comboing and gimping are two sides of the same coin (the punishment game). Just one happens when you are near the edge.

ok. opponent is behind you. you're in shield.

when would SH dair OOS be better then FH dair OOS vice versa?

also what does DAIR OOS generally combo into best?

thanks

I'm pretty sure SH dair oos is almost always better than FH dair. The only situation I can think of where FH dair would be better is if you are playing vs a floaty, are standing under a platform, and they are at mid percent.

Usually if you land SH dair oos a couple of things can happen.

1. They CC it/are slightly in the air. In this case they'll be knocked onto the ground and most likely miss the tech. Just be ready to techchase in this case. Jab reset, get a regrab, fsmash the roll, whatever you feel comfortable with.

2. They are at low enough percent so they don't fall over or get knocked in the air. Try to get a grab maybe but depending on how early you started the dair you might not get a guaranteed follow up.

3. you'll hit with the sweetspot and pop them up. depending on their DI/percent, you can usually fsmash or utilt out of it. The dair seems to set up for a tipper often, which is nice.

4. You'll hit with the sourspot and pop them up awkwardly. Probably go for utilt here.

I would say only go for this if they did a laggy attack and hit your shield, though. If they are just pressuring you from behind I would do like junkimchi said and wd oos to reset the situation most of the time.

One of the most common situations for using sh dair oos is if fox/falco dash attacks your shield, because a lot of times shieldgrabbing will miss.

 

[earla]

how frequently should a player be looking at %'s?

and in doubles?

 

[Jun.]

I was just mentioning that Marth's (and for any other character's at this point in the metagame) goal is to get the opponent off the stage in order to truly utilize Marth's strengths. Of course Marth has the potential to combo most of the cast pretty hard however the combos should have a strict objective which is to get the opponent off stage. (Peach and Puff being slight exceptions)

How many times have you guys as Marth players put your opponents to 100+% and found out that they are starting to play defensive while you realize that Marth has no auto kill moves like a fox usmash or a knee to help you on the stage to end the stock? The only kill power Marth has on the stage is obviously tipped fsmash which isn't reliable at mid to high percentages bc 1. Its reliant on careful spacing / enemy DI and 2. the drawbacks of a missed fsmash makes it very risky to throw out.

A very cliche example would be m2k's marth. Its known fact that m2k can probably combo people to hell and back however his fame which progressed the metagame of marth came along with his infamous edgeguarding antics. Going out on a limb to say that *most* of m2k's combos are to get the opponent off stage and not to combo to death like a Falcon or a Falco. And of course marth has cheesy, easy, and even somewhat guaranteed edgeguards against notable characters.

of course combos are nice to see
but at the end of the day this isn't Street Fighter

 

[earla]

when is shffl fair - jab better then shffl fair to d-tilt?

generally is auto cancelled nair a better option then l cancelled?

how do they compare, and which situations should u use each of them?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

shffl fair fsmash. only combo you need.

 

[ChivalRuse]

when is shffl fair - jab better then shffl fair to d-tilt?

generally is auto cancelled nair a better option then l cancelled?

how do they compare, and which situations should u use each of them?

Jab is pretty good for intercepting someone running straight at you. It can also catch them out of the air. Jab is good for adjusting for your spacing after an aerial. Say you barely miss a fair and expect them to try to grab you on landing. You can throw out jab immediately to at least lock them down for half a second.

If your fair hits shield, and you're spaced well, dtilt is a good follow up for pressure. If you do a late fair on shield but are mashed up against them, your best bet is probably to spotdodge or dash through them to avoid the shield grab.

Autocancelled nairs are the best way to use nair when on the defensive imo. SHFFL'd nairs are better for comboing I believe.

 

[earla]

whats a good way to gauge how many safe pummels you can get ?

watching EK vs CAPTAIN JACK: i notice EK ues FAIR > Utilt interestingly.

what is the purpose of that mixup, stop sheik aerial approach?

why use utilt instead of jab/ftilt to stop sheik jumping?

cheers

 

[stelzig]

Without having watched the situation you're talking about i'd imagine to simply get more out of it than just a single hit. If you get sheik above you with that utilt it can lead to alot of damage for sheik.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

reverse utilt is a great defensive tool. Because of how your sword moves, it ends on your back with a tipper and very little lag thereafter. Theres also a hitbox in the center of your body during the whole animation which can protect you pretty well from unspaced moves.

 

[earla]

fantastic.

been watching videos, i notice players like ken, isai use dancing blade sparingly.

when is dancing blade a GOOD OPTION to use. it seems is though marth generally has better options.

also, could someone kindly outline how to use shield breaker effectively too, i notice it bearly breaks shield and generally people use it in the air to hit above? or at the edge because it hits below?

some tips would be much appreciated.

 

[Dart!]

dancing blade is a good mixup, if you haven't been using it to break pace against certain characters...use it defensively when they come up on you. You can also use it to pivot, then grab.

Shieldbreaker: Its a good mindgame. if they are floaty it can be held to stop their approach, i mean you'll get punished in the lag if they don't **** up and run into it.

charge it while standing on ledge against far away falcons that are recovering its pretty decent.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

dancing blade isnt that good. the first 3 neutral hits can be used vs spacies at 100ish% but most decent players know how to DI out of it. the first hit is good because comes out at frame 4 or 5 (i forget which one) and it usually isnt DIed unless they see it coming. so vs jiggs and peach u can fwd b single hit>utilt which can kill at high %

 

[earla]

curious: what are the important things the top players are thinking about during a game?

i notice some characters like peach/luigi can break combos with their nair. how do you know when to stop your combo before they break it? tips?

also, is marths fair his best combo breaking move? cheers

 

[Dart!]

mixup meaning they shouldn't be expecting it.

 

[ChivalRuse]

when is dancing blade a GOOD OPTION to use. it seems is though marth generally has better options.

I like to use the first hit of dancing blade to beat out Falcon's SHFFL'd aerials. It's not the absolute solution to stuffing Falcon's approaches, of course, because there are naturally ways around it. The main thing you want to do is be aware of all the little factors that are necessary for this defense to work. Then you can easily use it when everything is in place.

 

[genkaku]

@ earla, regarding Luigi combo breaking.
Can you refer me to an example? I'd like to see how that works. My first impulse is that if you're getting hit with his nair your spacing is iffy, but I can't say for certain at the moment.

 

[earla]

is it possible to make peaach drop her turnips?

if fox is shielding near the ledge when u're on the ledge what is your best options to get back onto stage without being punished?

which situations are ledge hop fair, nair and uair approapriate? are any of them safer than each other? seems dangerous because obviously you have no second jump if you get hit out of your move.

cheers

 

[ChivalRuse]

Luigi should never get out of your combos with nair. To combo luigi optimally, you have to tip fairs/uairs/utilts. If Luigi manages to nair out, you're doing it wrong.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Some characters literally can't get through fair->dtilt spacing. Luigi is one of them. You have no reason to ever nair vs him. If you ever hit him just run around fairing wherever he is trying to land and he will soon be off the stage and then dead.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Some characters literally can't get through fair->dtilt spacing. Luigi is one of them. You have no reason to ever nair vs him. If you ever hit him just run around fairing wherever he is trying to land and he will soon be off the stage and then dead.

calm down sveet, I remember the marth ganon discussion and marth was just 0-death all day.

the description sounded alot like this one lmao. ^__^

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

except luigi has no range if he cant wavedash. if you space fairs once hes been hit all you have to do is

1) not be stupid and get hit by him DIing into you and nairing
2) stay below him
3) press buttons

I guess it may be a pretty even matchup if you don't do one of those things though...


edit: i want to see a luigi get inside a marth who is dtilting when luigi wavedashes towards him and then spaces fairs on him any time he jumps.

edit2: and yeah, marth does **** ganon once he gets a hit. As long as you combo him sideways off the stage with nairs and untipped fairs there isn't very much ganon can do without a combo break move.

 

[Winston]

Though I disagree with Sveet that marth ***** luigi, his matchup advice is pretty good.

As a Luigi main I'm glad that marths don't use dtilt more against me.

 

[Niko45]

Can Marth escape dthrow dair/fair from luigi? Or is that guaranteed at lots of %?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

DI towards

why is luigi grabbing marth?

 

[Winston]

DI in the direction that's behind Luigi. That'll get you out of dair/fair. He can still do wavedash ftilt though at a lot of percents, so be ready for that.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Can Marth escape dthrow dair/fair from luigi? Or is that guaranteed at lots of %?

Luigi's d-throw puts you behind him, like Peach's.

 

[Niko45]

DI towards

why is luigi grabbing marth?

Well if you must know, it's because I suck.

 

[genkaku]

How do you guys go about a doc matchup?
There are certain things, like his dthrow to fair, that I can't seem to avoid. Ever.

 

[Niko45]

How do you guys go about a doc matchup?
There are certain things, like his dthrow to fair, that I can't seem to avoid. Ever.

For dthrow fair, the best thing I find is to DI it straight up because DIing left or right will increase your stun time. If you don't DI, try to jump out immediately. If he doesn't do the dthrow fair perfectly he won't get you.

In general you need to use fair and dtilt to pressure doc's spacing and try to keep him from getting in on you. If you have some space behind you, utiltize dash away -> grab to try to anticipate an approach.

Bait sidesteps because it can wreck you if you aren't patient enough.

Once you do get grabs, most often you should use up throw. Up throw and wait, try to catch him double jumping and once you've taken his jump try to combo him off stage as he is helpless with no jump and should be edgehoggable for the KO. If you up throw him and he tries to fall on you with dair (high priority and misleading hitbox) you need to be ready to up tilt or short hop into a very well spaced up air.

Jab pills and dash away if he approaches behind them. Otherwise jab and walk towards him gradually to close the distance. Never give him too much room to pill you because pills can bounce high and fall in on you over your jab if you give them too much time. This would force you to fair or something which should always lead to a doc punish.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Though I disagree with Sveet that marth ***** luigi, his matchup advice is pretty good.

As a Luigi main I'm glad that marths don't use dtilt more against me.

I agree his MU advice is pretty solid. I was just clownin a bit. sometimes he will over simplify and it sounds like marth can just win while taking a **** lol.

thats where the ganon thing came from, talking about 0-deaths each stock lol. so we said sveet was the best player on the world.

its all good. and marth should be able to handle luigi but that dude can most definitely fake you out.

basically luigi can be just outside your landing fair which gives him enough time to get at you. things like jab and d tilt help keep him walled of since you don't have to worry about him jumping at you to approach. ive seen ka wave dash in and side step the jab for jab to grab.

marth in the air is a target to luigi. you should stay on the ground and counter his approach from there.

because marth extends his hitbox with alot of moves he is susceptible to weegy WD tilts or D smash at times.

its slightly on marth's favor imo. but I think mid level marth players would beat mid level luigis.

 

[Niko45]

Yea I think its similar to doc, where WD jab dsmash/grab gets you in there doing damage. Luigi's air approach is more limited tho, so I might be more inclined to forego fair and just spam dtilt until it became clearly unsafe. Sorta like ICs.

I'm pretty sure Luigi can CC a misspaced dtilt (if he WDs in perfectly after the fair this should happen) and then dsmash back before being pushed too far away.

Jab dsmash beats marth ccing. Jab grab if marth doesn't cc.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Whenever you do a fair near the ground, you've got to do it while retreating. Otherwise you'll probably get wd -> f-tilted/d-smashed.

U-throw ***** Luigi, since his aerial mobility is among the worst in the game. Marth is one of the few characters whose combos Luigi can almost never nair out of.

 

[earla]

1. when are good oppotunities to set up grabs or get grabs in a marth ditto?

2. tips on landing ko's on foxes?

3.IMPORTANT: opponent is above me on platform and has missed the tech. what are my best punishes on them if a) im on battlefield where my f-smash reaches the platform or b) on kirby64 dreamland.

>sometimes i chain grab fox and they DI towards a platform and survive but just land on the platform without teching. then i fail to punish their get up though.

tips would be much appreciated.