Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Niko45]

CCing should not be used only in emergency cases. Trading 12% for control and possibly a stock depending on the matchup is completely worth it.

Obviously it's better to not take damage but the fact that it takes almost no investment to actually CC makes it entirely bonkers.

Well like if CF tries to nair approach me for instance I will try to just DD grab him if I can, but if he's overshot the nair well or I just messed up you best believe I will CC grab that. That's what I consider an "emergency".

Marth particularly can just play really well and outspace/anticipate in most CC situations and achieve the same outcome, so CCing I find to be a fall back defensive option in case plan A fails. Obviously there are some special cases tho.

 

[ChivalRuse]

CCing should not be used only in emergency cases. Trading 12% for control and possibly a stock depending on the matchup is completely worth it.

Obviously it's better to not take damage but the fact that it takes almost no investment to actually CC makes it entirely bonkers.

Yeayea that's what I was trying to explain. <3 KK

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

In some cases its better to just take the CC. For example, you're at 0% and sheik jumps in the air. You can CC grab or CC fsmash (depending on her percent) any one of her aerials, but if you try to dd grab or pivot fsmash you have a much higher chance of failure.

 

[KAOSTAR]

You dont go take damage in order to CC. You CC as a result of inevitably going to take damage. but theere are times when 12% is worth gettng a stock therefore resulting in less wasted damage on a stock that should be gone, or giving them more change to do more than 12% to you.

Except peach dsmash, its usually better to CC, its like saying Id rather DI well and wiggle out and fair instead of trying not to get hit.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I play IC's, so for me one grab = stock (or like 50%). CC'ing is just another way to get grabs.

 

[_wzrd]

so when you cc->grab do you have to let go of the cc to actually grab?

i tested it a little but ended up d-tilting.

also, most aeriels are safe to cc at low percents right?


edit: i use z to grab most of the time, a friend suggested trying r+a for that situation, is that what most of you do?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If you JC the grab, you won't dtilt. thats what i do.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Shieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeld
garrrrrrrrrrrrbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb

 

[KAOSTAR]

Spam shield grab is better. just more inputs and you will get one right. But it leads to a missed tech if they hit u wit somthing else thats stronger.


jk lol I wasnt thinking. You wont miss a tech because you should be holding shield and just spamming A lol

 

[KirbyKaze]

Z doesn't cancel the ability to tech?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

afaik you can't tech with z, so no.

 

[KirbyKaze]

okies then

 

[KAOSTAR]

My fault, only if you spam shield as well as grab.

just hold it and spam A is better imo. Z acts as A+R but I dont trust it lol. its hard to press sometimes, its not the greatest trigger design

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Thats cause its a button

 

[KAOSTAR]

Actually, good point lol.

 

[Tink]

sveettt....i got a question....how does a marth become more like m2k's marth?

when i watch it, im act scared for the other person playing him -_-. do i need to just **** more?

also, all marths should be working in the neutral B to their games! its too good.

 

[Aesir]

Lol I wouldn't bother trying to emulate m2k.

I've been trying to emulate m2k since 2007, I ended up doing worse than I do when I just do things I normally would. Aka cactuar stuff.

 

[KAOSTAR]

What if Tink is better at emulating.

I mean, my laptop cant run the dolphin, but Im sure somebody elses can lol.

just sayin

 

[Tee ay eye]

is it worth using marth on counterpick stages?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

sveettt....i got a question....how does a marth become more like m2k's marth?

when i watch it, im act scared for the other person playing him -_-. do i need to just **** more?

also, all marths should be working in the neutral B to their games! its too good.

you should definitely fsmash less tink. also, stand very still then suddenly RUN FORWARD grab. I think your grab game is pretty solid but you should chaingrab very quickly without pummeling because thats how m2k does it.

 

[Staco]

No, neutral B shouldnt be added a lot to your game.

It can be punished.
It limits your options (for example if U charge it to edgeguard) your enemy can just react to it and work around it.
Its only usefull in certain situations.

 

[Dart!]

dropzone shield breaker is 2 good idk what you guys are smoking.

 

[yummynbeefy]

how would u rate all of the stages in terms of being good for marth on a scale of 1-10 (including counterpicks)

FOD -
BF -
FD -
YS -
DL64 -
KJ64 -
Brinstar -
RC -
Stadium -

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

FOD - 6
BF - 5
FD - 9
YS - 9.5
DL64 -6.5
KJ64 - 3
Brinstar - 2.5
RC - 99
Stadium - 4.5



idk what the values mean, but here you go

 

[yummynbeefy]

on a scale of 1-10 how good the stage is for marth 1 being horrible and 10 being amazing

 

[JBM falcon08]

BF-8
FD-10
YS-9
FOD-7
DL64-7
KJ64-5
RC-6.5
Bstar-4
Stadium-6.5

I love stadium. I dont enjoy some of the stage transformations but its not horrible for Marth.

 

[Aesir]

What if Tink is better at emulating.

I mean, my laptop cant run the dolphin, but Im sure somebody elses can lol.

just sayin

You can't ever emulate a style perfectly.

The things m2k does, only m2k can do because he has the experience and knowledge that cannot be emulated.

Using your lap top analogy. A lap top will never be able to emulate a game perfectly because all an emulator is, is tricking your lap top into thinking it's something it's not. Regardless how good your computer/laptop is there will always be a glitch and it will just be a superficial imitation.


edit;

how would u rate all of the stages in terms of being good for marth on a scale of 1-10 (including counterpicks)

FOD - 8
BF - 8 (against sheik it's a 3)
FD - 8
YS - 10
DL64 - 5
KJ64 - 4
Brinstar - 5
RC - 4
Stadium - 7

No, neutral B shouldnt be added a lot to your game.

It can be punished.
It limits your options (for example if U charge it to edgeguard) your enemy can just react to it and work around it.
Its only usefull in certain situations.

All of these can be refuted by just not sucking.

 

[Niko45]

Whats the best way to deal with Falco's low double laser from the ledge? I seem to really struggle at punishing this despite being really sure its coming. I'm not willing to counter because that's too much of a commitment.

 

[KAOSTAR]

You can't ever emulate a style perfectly.

The things m2k does, only m2k can do because he has the experience and knowledge that cannot be emulated.

Using your lap top analogy. A lap top will never be able to emulate a game perfectly because all an emulator is, is tricking your lap top into thinking it's something it's not. Regardless how good your computer/laptop is there will always be a glitch and it will just be a superficial imitation.

But it gets the job done. You are not trying to be M2k, you are trying to be like m2k. And win. You want to look at what he does in certain situations and do what he does.

Understanding something is only necessary to improve it, or to know when to do it(without emulation). I dont have to know why m2k does something if I can do it in the same situation. The outcome should be relatively the same, I would not be able to do new things or be innovative like him without having seen him first, unless I understood.

Thats like telling a blind man to press B on a sound Q. He can still do it, yet he doesnt need to know why in order to have an adequate level of execution.

Somethings however require a higher understanding, even with a basica understanding, you can do a basic emulation, as your understanding grows, you will simply emulate it better.(better software)

All provided you have the tech skill or proper hardware

 

[Tee ay eye]

Whats the best way to deal with Falco's low double laser from the ledge? I seem to really struggle at punishing this despite being really sure its coming. I'm not willing to counter because that's too much of a commitment.

if you're close to the edge, you can shield -> up B OOS
(up B comes out either between the lasers or after. USUALLY between)

 

[I.B]

or even counter as well

or if you see it coming from a mile, full hop and come down on him with an aerial

 

[Aesir]

Whats the best way to deal with Falco's low double laser from the ledge? I seem to really struggle at punishing this despite being really sure its coming. I'm not willing to counter because that's too much of a commitment.

Well outside of stupid funny things you could do. Just power shield it.

Okay chances are you probably can't do that yet, but if you know it's coming jump into whatever you feel like doing because he's dead.

But it gets the job done. You are not trying to be M2k, you are trying to be like m2k. And win. You want to look at what he does in certain situations and do what he does.

Understanding something is only necessary to improve it, or to know when to do it(without emulation). I dont have to know why m2k does something if I can do it in the same situation. The outcome should be relatively the same, I would not be able to do new things or be innovative like him without having seen him first, unless I understood.

Thats like telling a blind man to press B on a sound Q. He can still do it, yet he doesnt need to know why in order to have an adequate level of execution.

Somethings however require a higher understanding, even with a basic understanding, you can do a basic emulation, as your understanding grows, you will simply emulate it better.(better software)

All provided you have the tech skill or proper hardware

And then people adopt and since you don't understand why m2k did that, you get *****.

See it's a superficial impersonation. You need to understand why things work, to be good at this game. Even if it's at a subconsciousness level there has to be understanding as to why you do things.

Why do we jab spacies side b's? It's to create a favorable situation, and put's them at an unfavorable situational. You need to understand why though in order to adapt when things go sour. For instance they can smash DI the jab and land on the stage and suddenly you're in the bad situation. Hence why next time you just forward tilt and they die.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

really? full hop?
i thought it would be laggy but hmm....

can you rate the stages according to vs. fox, falco, puff, peach, and sheik please?(or fox and sheik if you're lazy)
Just personal opinion, but if you can also throw in why, that would be great. thanks

 

[FoxLisk]

cc dtilt falco's edge lasers works pretty well.

 

[Teczer0]

or even counter as well

or if you see it coming from a mile, full hop and come down on him with an aerial

This is kinda what I do.

But did you ever get the aerial to land?

Cuz I always just SH double jump FF fair but they always seem to have time to block it.

So I just space it =/

 

[KAOSTAR]

And then people adopt and since you don't understand why m2k did that, you get *****.

See it's a superficial impersonation. You need to understand why things work, to be good at this game. Even if it's at a subconsciousness level there has to be understanding as to why you do things.

Why do we jab spacies side b's? It's to create a favorable situation, and put's them at an unfavorable situational. You need to understand why though in order to adapt when things go sour. For instance they can smash DI the jab and land on the stage and suddenly you're in the bad situation. Hence why next time you just forward tilt and they die.

I am only saying that it is possible to emulate something without understanding why, and have a favorable outcome.

I already said in order to improve a technique or adapt you need to understand why.

being human, even if you emulate something but dont know why you are doing it, its possible to learn or understand the reason through application.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Actually you could emulate m2k or other pros, except you would have to understand why they made all their decisions. The twist is that you would already be a good player if you could already understand and preform all of m2k's stuff.

i'm sure mango could do a m2k style impression

 

[Aesir]

I am only saying that it is possible to emulate something without understanding why, and have a favorable outcome.

And I've said this is superficial. Many marths will jab side b's not realizing why exactly they're doing it. They just think it's good and they see m2k doing it so they believe it's good not because of any reasoning through experience or theory just because a pro uses it.

I already said in order to improve a technique or adapt you need to understand why.

And you'll never understand if you just rely on emulating other people rather than going outside that comfort zone.

being human, even if you emulate something but dont know why you are doing it, its possible to learn or understand the reason through application.

All I'm saying is relying on emulation is only going to hinder your growth. I've grown far more as a player by breaking off from emulation and just relying on my experience as a player.

Picking up tactics and such from pros is one thing but when you're trying to BE a pro by imitation you're just doing your self a disservice.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Are we having a discussion or an argument, I just feel like you think im disagreeing with you.

I dont think emulation is the best route. I think picking up things and mixing them in with your own style creates tengen toppa gurren smashers, experience is too good.

 

[Aesir]

Are we having a discussion or an argument, I just feel like you think im disagreeing with you.

I dont think emulation is the best route. I think picking up things and mixing them in with your own style creates tengen toppa gurren smashers, experience is too good.

I don't think you're disagreeing with me, I'm just saying emulation isn't a wise decision. Picking up things is good but you need to understand why they're good.

Not everyones azen who just does good things consistently without realizing why they're good. (Then again I would argue he does those things because subconsciously he knows they're good.)