Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Staco]

Whats the best way to deal with Falco's low double laser from the ledge? I seem to really struggle at punishing this despite being really sure its coming. I'm not willing to counter because that's too much of a commitment.

Crouch the first laser, then DTilt.
But the timing is really hard to pull off.

 

[Fade2Nothing]

advice against falcon? i understand that i have to strive to take a stock as soon as i can throw him off the stage but how do i manage to grab falcon? are there methods to bait him into one? hes a very fast character and nearly impossible to catch up to unless i pick yoshis story but i cant pick that every single match of the set. also what if im in the middle of the stage and get a grab? which throw should i use? and dd camping falcons x_x how should i deal with that? because everytime he gets me to run in i get ***** also my friend told me to go for very small hits as to not get punished such as tilts jab and fair but when should i throw out an fsmash or a larger hit for the kill?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

if he messes up the first laser height just a little, you can fsmash or neutral b him (the laser goes over your head and you hit him).

an other alternate includes jumping and eating both lasers and hitting him with a fair afterwards.

 

[Tee ay eye]

shield and up B!

 

[KAOSTAR]

I don't think you're disagreeing with me, I'm just saying emulation isn't a wise decision. Picking up things is good but you need to understand why they're good.

Not everyones azen who just does good things consistently without realizing why they're good. (Then again I would argue he does those things because subconsciously he knows they're good.)

Well, I guess we can both agree that assimilation is better than emulation.

 

[Shadow Huan]

play your own way. don't try to directly copy anything a top pro does if you can't do it/it makes you uncomfortable. chainthrowing spacies is probably an exception, just like jabbing a spacy side b would be. to paraphrase what Kaos just said, take what you like and do it your way ala Burger King.

also hi Aesir! long time no smash. marth ditto at the next Mass Madness? =D

 

[Dart!]

advice against falcon? i understand that i have to strive to take a stock as soon as i can throw him off the stage but how do i manage to grab falcon? are there methods to bait him into one? hes a very fast character and nearly impossible to catch up to unless i pick yoshis story but i cant pick that every single match of the set. also what if im in the middle of the stage and get a grab? which throw should i use? and dd camping falcons x_x how should i deal with that? because everytime he gets me to run in i get ***** also my friend told me to go for very small hits as to not get punished such as tilts jab and fair but when should i throw out an fsmash or a larger hit for the kill?

Well, the best thing is to make him come to you...time one of your really good moves *uptilt, dtilt...jabs even really good* the only moves you have to avoid while trying to stop him are nair and fair.

 

[Moooose]

ftilt makes you duck a bit... if they laser too high it's a good choice

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

So marth's upb OoS is too good against spacies. Its too good in general. Don't use it against sheik cause kelssheik will just powershield it.

 

[Teczer0]

Thats uhh interesting, what situations do you use it in?

 

[Dart!]

Thats uhh interesting, what situations do you use it in?

Its amazing on spacies that are of the following

1: slow
2: don't expect it
3: lcancels are bad

its really effective if you are ******* around and manage to put them in "that percent" where you can't do anything to them *over 110*

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

actually none of the above. upb OoS is frame for frame the same as falco's shine OoS (the perfect air one).

1 (jump animation) + 4 (upb starting frames). next frame marth is invincible and has his strong hitbox out.

I got it a bunch of times on kels, more often than he got a real punish. As long as it hits they have to tech which gives you enough time to recover from the lag. If you miss though, you're kinda ****ed.

Against kels' sheik i did it after he did a ftilt on my shield and he powershielded it...

 

[ChivalRuse]

Against kels' sheik i did it after he did a ftilt on my shield and he powershielded it...

Hahaha. ****.

 

[Dart!]

actually none of the above. upb OoS is frame for frame the same as falco's shine OoS (the perfect air one).

1 (jump animation) + 4 (upb starting frames). next frame marth is invincible and has his strong hitbox out.

I got it a bunch of times on kels, more often than he got a real punish. As long as it hits they have to tech which gives you enough time to recover from the lag. If you miss though, you're kinda ****ed.

Against kels' sheik i did it after he did a ftilt on my shield and he powershielded it...

i must be doing it just a little bit slow then.

 

[Teczer0]

actually none of the above. upb OoS is frame for frame the same as falco's shine OoS (the perfect air one).

1 (jump animation) + 4 (upb starting frames). next frame marth is invincible and has his strong hitbox out.

I got it a bunch of times on kels, more often than he got a real punish. As long as it hits they have to tech which gives you enough time to recover from the lag. If you miss though, you're kinda ****ed.

Against kels' sheik i did it after he did a ftilt on my shield and he powershielded it...

It sounds like to me you do it for the sheer speed.

Which isn't bad of course considering the knockback on it.

I'll give it a shot anyway

 

[Staco]

Up B OoS should be pretty good to punish attacks on your shield, U just need to be fast enough to give your enemy no chance to shield it.
Look against which attacks U are able to use it.

 

[Tairseth]

advice against falcon? i understand that i have to strive to take a stock as soon as i can throw him off the stage but how do i manage to grab falcon? are there methods to bait him into one? hes a very fast character and nearly impossible to catch up to unless i pick yoshis story but i cant pick that every single match of the set. also what if im in the middle of the stage and get a grab? which throw should i use? and dd camping falcons x_x how should i deal with that? because everytime he gets me to run in i get ***** also my friend told me to go for very small hits as to not get punished such as tilts jab and fair but when should i throw out an fsmash or a larger hit for the kill?

I play falcon very often, so I could be of some assistance. Due to falcon not being able to sweetspot and Marth being one of the best edgeguarders in the game getting falcon off stage is key. Grabs can be difficult to get at times, but I find wavedashing into shield grabs often get me grabs as long as they arent predicted in which you would probbably get grabbed yourself. Wavedashing and JC grabs really help Marth's rediculous grab range as well.

As for grabs in the middle of the stage. I use down or forward and mid %'s and up at low percents to tech chase to the edge.

DD camping Falcons are a largeish problem for marths. Useing dashing ccd dtilt of even dash attack works for me alot.

Using smaller hits is advised as not to get punished by falcons speed. Tech chasing his not so fast rolls is a good way to rack up damage untill you can get him off. Up throw to platform **** is advised if possible via u-tilt u-air and fsmash tipper on platform. I only use fsmash to punish rolls, high lag moves, for platform ****, and when hes off the edge(due to aformentioned lack of sweetspot).

And that concludes my marth v falcon theory knowledge. However bad/good it may be.

 

[MarthPwnzer-]

If you get a grab on falcon and you're not anywhere near the ledge just down throw and tech chase until they get to a percent or position you're comfortable with. Tech chasing ***** falcon if you're good at it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You have to switch between dthrow and fthrow or they can get out with DI away.

 

[Vincent46]

What would be a good followup to grab on peach at 0% / low %s? What about fthrow to nair to stuff?

 

[AceDudeyeah]

When Marth tries to save himself after jump wall-teching with a bair, will just the c-stick stop his wall-jump momentum?

 

[Vincent46]

When Marth tries to save himself after jump wall-teching with a bair, will just the c-stick stop his wall-jump momentum?

If you're asking whether you can c-stick the bair or not, yes you can.

 

[MarthPwnzer-]

What would be a good followup to grab on peach at 0% / low %s? What about fthrow to nair to stuff?

Upthrow to fsmash

 

[AceDudeyeah]

If you're asking whether you can c-stick the bair or not, yes you can.

and it will stop his momentum? even if the left stick is in neutral?

Upthrow to fsmash

no way, on peach?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

What would be a good followup to grab on peach at 0% / low %s? What about fthrow to nair to stuff?

fthrow->fair fair fair fair fair fair fair fair fair fair fair fair fair


@acedudeperson
the action of canceling the walljump animation with another animation cancels the additional momentum you gain. If you don't hold in you will continue falling outwards because thats the direction your character is already going.

 

[Tee ay eye]

up B oos ***** against an unexpecting falco's ledge lasers

 

[ChivalRuse]

^ I need to incorporate that into my game.

 

[Staco]

up B oos ***** against an unexpecting falco's ledge lasers

Better learn the timing for DTilt after CC the first laser or sth. like that.
Imagine you dont hit and he just Dairs you, so that U fly up offstage and another Dair, so that U die, lol.


Against Peach do FThrows.
Regrab, if they DI todwards you, dash attack if they DI away.
Fair also works well.

 

[Tairseth]

What would be a good followup to grab on peach at 0% / low %s? What about fthrow to nair to stuff?

If you shffl the nair you could possibly try to start a ken combo or if your not as comfortable you can shffl the nair into a fsmash or possibly up tilt.

 

[KAOSTAR]

up B oos ***** against an unexpecting falco's ledge lasers

Oh wow, ur probably hella right. Ive never even tried that. Ive dont all kinds of crazy stupid **** like powshielding one and sidestepping the other lol.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Oh wow, ur probably hella right. Ive never even tried that. Ive dont all kinds of crazy stupid **** like powshielding one and sidestepping the other lol.

have you powershielded them both and combo'd that into fsmash?

 

[KAOSTAR]

Powershielded them both into upthrow dair.

 

[meleenoob]

hey i just watched a vid where someone used marth's side b to spike someone, this is probably old news, i didn't really get a good look at exactly what was done so if someone could explain it would be awesome.

 

[Cactuar]

Third hit down is a meteor. Read the Marth guide...

 

[Niko45]

Alright I want to talk about counterpick stages in depth. Marth is not known for being great on CP stages (Brinstar, Kongo, Rainbow are mainly what I'm talking about, I'm familiar enough with Stadium).

However, IS Marth actually good on any of those stages in certain matchups? Like, Rainbow Cruise/Brinstar vs the ICs or something?

Also, for banning purposes, in which matchups is it absolutely imperative that you ban X stage?

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Done frame perfectly, is it impossible for spacies to escape the 2 fthrows at 0 percent? Or can they still buffer in a roll/spot-dodge in there?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

they can always buffer a dodge/shine. small gap though, and they might only be able to get out if they DI away.

as far as CP stages, you should really figure that out for yourself. Stage selection is a very personal thing. RC is one of my favorite stages in the whole game, but i don't really like playing as marth there. I don't really like any CP stage for marth because he is a different type of glass canon. Instead of getting hit once and dying like fox/falco, he really needs to stay in specific zones depending on the situation. Stages that force him to leave those zones are inherently negative for him. Of the current CPs, DK64 is his best though obviously not that good.

 

[Niko45]

That seems to be a generally good assessment of Marth on CP stages but I'm talking about specific matchups.

I guess its my fault for not being specific enough.

Vs Peach and Puff: Is there a clear cut stage you should ban out of Brinstar, DL64, or KJ64?

Vs ICs: How viable are brinstar and Rainbow Cruise as CP stages?

Are any of the 3 a good CP against Falco?

 

[Dart!]

That seems to be a generally good assessment of Marth on CP stages but I'm talking about specific matchups.

I guess its my fault for not being specific enough.

Vs Peach and Puff: Is there a clear cut stage you should ban out of Brinstar, DL64, or KJ64?

Vs ICs: How viable are brinstar and Rainbow Cruise as CP stages?

Are any of the 3 a good CP against Falco?

1: Ban KJ64, Brinstar has lava that can actually help you out and the sides aren't as big as KJ or DL's i think...and DL64 isn't so bad if you can wall them out with fairs. KJ64 just gives them too much room to move around and the platforms help them out and don't really help you at all.

2: RC would be better, not by much. you should have a 2ndary character that would do well on these stages if you really need to...but you should just take them to either yoshis or battlefield and then FoD

3: I've found KJ64 is very useful against falco only because his recovery is terrible and on this stage its even worse except for the barrel.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

^ what i'm talking about with it being very subjective.

i could refute all of that, but in the end i'd be arguing subjectively.

just fyi, blunted object CP'd and beat m2k's marth on DK64