Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Fortress | Sveet]

The fact is you can't gauge the matchup by any player vs player alone. You have to look at the matchup's specific pattern, players deviate away from the pattern constantly in order to suit their impromptu needs. The deviations are what many people refer to as reads. Out of position and spacing errors like that all refer to this pattern. That is the reason you can't judge a match-up by 1 match or 1 player, and why many people simply don't even know what they are talking about when they talk about matchups at the top level.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Kels- A national level player with a large amount of game knowledge and experience against some of the best players in the world.

Me- Basically nobody.

One of the following are true:

By your inui logic, i'm better than kels because the matchup is even or in favor of puff and i wrecked him.

By your inui logic, marth >> puff because i beat a player who is better than me in the matchup.

Your inui logic is flawed and you need think about the matchups in another way.

Dude are you serious. He was only saying who cares lol. Kels isnt the puff to beat lmao.

Thats like saying I beat Hboxs falco. So I now know the falco matchups and its def marth falco?

 

[ChivalRuse]

The fact is you can't gauge the matchup by any player vs player alone. You have to look at the matchup's specific pattern, players deviate away from the pattern constantly in order to suit their impromptu needs. The deviations are what many people refer to as reads. Out of position and spacing errors like that all refer to this pattern. That is the reason you can't judge a match-up by 1 match or 1 player, and why many people simply don't even know what they are talking about when they talk about matchups at the top level.

You yourself were the one, not I, using your win over Kels as a credit toward the idea of Marth doing well vs Puff. I'm willing to concede that individual matches can't really be used to determine match-ups. However, I think if we look at a broad collection of matches on a specific level of play, we can garner a bit of knowledge on where the advantages lie.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

i was able to beat cactuars puff like twice (out of about 20 matches) does that make me better than him? **** no. puff is the only char he doesnt know how to use.

 

[KAOSTAR]

i was able to beat cactuars puff like twice (out of about 20 matches) does that make me better than him? **** no. puff is the only char he doesnt know how to use.

Actually, you lost 18/20 times which is more important. Thats clearly why he is better than you and puff would beat marth.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You yourself were the one, not I, using your win over Kels as a credit toward the idea of Marth doing well vs Puff. I'm willing to concede that individual matches can't really be used to determine match-ups. However, I think if we look at a broad collection of matches on a specific level of play, we can garner a bit of knowledge on where the advantages lie.

i brought up me vs kels as a direct reply to whoever brought up m2k being the top level marth and using his matches vs puffs as proof of the matchup.

For one, you can't define players at a certain level. You can say m2k and mango/hbox are on the same level but i would say thats definitely not true. If you look at all the matches between hbox and m2k and average out who wins more, you only get the ratio of how much hbox wins vs m2k not any idea of which direction the matchup goes.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I agree that box mew and fruit are not on the same level.

 

[Niko45]

i brought up me vs kels as a direct reply to whoever brought up m2k being the top level marth and using his matches vs puffs as proof of the matchup.

Nobody implied that that one match was the law of the land.

For one, you can't define players at a certain level. You can say m2k and mango/hbox are on the same level but i would say thats definitely not true. If you look at all the matches between hbox and m2k and average out who wins more, you only get the ratio of how much hbox wins vs m2k not any idea of which direction the matchup goes.

How do you come up with Marth > Puff? Puff's advantage in the punishment game ranges from a solid advantage to an absurd advantage when accounting for rest. Puff edgeguards an off stage marth extremely easily, while marth really doesn't have an edgeguard on puff.

In order to make up for this you must be talking about a huge advantage for Marth in neutral position. But that seems like a really difficult case to make. They're both using disjointed hitboxes with great range. Even IF Marth has a slight advantage from neutral position, that certainly doesn't make up for everything else.

This is all pointless because ur infamous for still thinking puff is high tier....

 

[Nø Ca$h]

Actually, you lost 18/20 times which is more important. Thats clearly why he is better than you and puff would beat marth.

it means he is much better than me, NOT that puff beats marth. if we were on a more comparable level (and if he had a puff) than it would matter towards the matchup.

 

[Teczer0]

I KNOW, I'm not seeing Inui logic being used to make any type of point. Unless that point is being Inui logic is silly.

Marth vs Puff is a super obnoxious match up btw. You have be sooo careful =/

I personally think its evenish *shrugs*

 

[KAOSTAR]

it means he is much better than me, NOT that puff beats marth. if we were on a more comparable level (and if he had a puff) than it would matter towards the matchup.

You sarcastically asked if it meant puff beat marth with you winning 2/20 games.

I was saying, that it would in fact mean the opposite because you lost.

The simple fact that you lost 18/20 times would lead you to a more valid question of does that mean puff>marth. The answer is still no. but its more relevant to m2k vs mango because marth is on the losing side

 

[CloneHat]

Pivot Dashing. Do you guys know about it?

 

[Cactuar]

I think you only won vs my Puff once, and it was the first match I had played as her. So really, I was just getting used to her aerial movement/spacing and options. Plus I SD'd twice that match trying to do things on the ledge. Puff beats Marth in the air. Puff can manipulate Marth while he is grounded to make it in her favor. Once I started abusing her movement, you had a severe problem with doing *any* move in response, and then being punished for it. This is Puff's game: wait till they do anything and punish them for it, or out prioritize via bair. Unfortunately, Marth isn't very good at winning that game. It doesn't matter that Marth technically outranges Puff. Puff can beat slight disadvantages in priority via baiting and movement, which is a huge disadvantage for Marth due to how slow he is.

And that's just the waaaaaay it issssss.

 

[Teczer0]

That name is kinda misleading lol.

I thought it was gonna involve a run and a pivot. Then I found out its edgeguarding lol.

I guess I know about it, but I don't really use it *shrugs*

 

[Nø Ca$h]

naw it deff wasnt the first match it was like the 2nd or 3rd. i remeber beating u on FD and YS cuz u were like "those two stages give puff a disadvantage", and than u shot me w/ 1000 needles and ran away.

but im definately counting it like its a brawl set. get at me

 

[TemPesT-]

I KNOW, I'm not seeing Inui logic being used to make any type of point. Unless that point is being Inui logic is silly.

Marth vs Puff is a super obnoxious match up btw. You have be sooo careful =/

I personally think its evenish *shrugs*

i don't see it as that even, because if marth ****s up, he's probably dead. if jiggs ****s up, she takes a fair or 2 and thats it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Marth actually has decent combos on puff.

neither character can edge guard the other very well. puff can only do it if marth has to upb to ledge and then punish with rest, which is actually better for marth than many things other characters can do to him in similar situations.

If you work towards your advantages, such as disjointed hitboxes and much better speed, marth can do a lot to puff.

The fact of the match-up is puff has no real way to approach marth and marth only has a very slightly better time getting in. I can see this matchup being fairly even, but i still think marth has a slight advantage.

 

[Staco]

i don't see it as that even, because if marth ****s up, he's probably dead. if jiggs ****s up, she takes a fair or 2 and thats it.

If you look at matchups U dont look at "if he ****s up", because in the MU ratios the players play and act at their best, not making anything wrong.
If puff cant force the situation it wont get the MU in her favour.

U dont make a MU by looking at 2 mediocre players, which make a lot of mistakes.
U try to imagine that the players make no mistakes.

 

[Kaffei]

If you look at matchups U dont look at "if he ****s up", because in the MU ratios the players play and act at their best, not making anything wrong.
If puff cant force the situation it wont get the MU in her favour.

U dont make a MU by looking at 2 mediocre players, which make a lot of mistakes.
U try to imagine that the players make no mistakes.

Imagining that the players are perfect is flawed, because every person makes mistakes. Marth playing vs Jiggs has to be PERFECT

 

[Nø Ca$h]

no you just have to out play the puff. everyone think puff is really easy to use. i wouldnt doubt if its almost as hard on the puffs end as it is for marth. ppl just need to stop saying "Oh em gee i need perfect spacing its impossible" and just get better at it. geez

 

[Kaffei]

i wouldnt doubt if its almost as hard on the puffs end as it is for marth.

That's what I meant.

 

[Aesir]

Randomly beating cactuar in friendlies is totally something to brag about. Considering he sandbags. LOL

 

[Tee ay eye]

for real, seeing Staco and Kaffei post right next to each other was confusing

 

[TemPesT-]

If you look at matchups U dont look at "if he ****s up", because in the MU ratios the players play and act at their best, not making anything wrong.
If puff cant force the situation it wont get the MU in her favour.

U dont make a MU by looking at 2 mediocre players, which make a lot of mistakes.
U try to imagine that the players make no mistakes.

find me a match EVER between any 2 players where neither makes a mistake.

punishing is part of the game too, and since one character has a better punishment then another, it's something to consider.

 

[Bob Money]

I'm liking Marth over puff but not by much.If Jiggs pounds at right time, Marth is a world of trouble. Pound eats through alot of marths moves and s easy to combo after. Jiggs can duck Marths grab pretty regularly. But like Cactuar said, a meaty back air from puff really ****s up marth.

I'd say Marths ability to "hide" under platforms is under rated in the match up.
Bottom line though if Marth gets off stage, he should die. If you don't the jiggs made a mistake or you were too low a percent.

Suffice to say whoever is spacing better should win the match up. It's up to the marth player to find a creative way to kill puff earlier though, which isn't always going to happen.

Marth can "punish" most of Jiggs pressure if she hits his shield.
Wave dash jab has the potential to shut down alot of puffs that cannot adjust.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Killing potential I think is the real difference in the matchup.

Percents can go up at the same rateish in a close game, but marth has to be creative, safe, and smart to get the kill and if he isn't Jiggs percents will keep increasing. For Jiggs on the other hand when Marth gets to 100ish nearly any hit will knock him off and set up an edgeguard. + getting rest...Jiggs has a much easier time killing.

My unexperienced opinion is even or slightly in Jiggs favor.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

marth has to be creative, safe, and smart to get the kill

if kdj still played he would be incredible at this match up.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Idk i consider marth the hardest character to edgeguard, besides puff. Especially on stages like dream land and FoD, you can DI so far up that at 200% you live and don't even have to use your jump to recover. As long as marth has his jump and isn't forced to upb to the edge, puff has nothing guarenteed -- though she does have a less risky time going off stage against marth.

 

[KAOSTAR]

You think that marth is harder to edgeguard than m2 for puff?

 

[Bob Money]

He;'s probably talking about characters that matter.



jk....Taj Mewtwo ripped me a new a$s hole

 

[KAOSTAR]

Lol. Doc m2 is fairly close.

M2s best asset is that ppl dont often know how to play against him. Amazing cp when you are outclassed by your opponent =D

Edit:its really not all that amazing, but you know

 

[Staco]

In my opinion the MU depens on the players.

Mew2King also gets ***** by HBox with Fox, even as Fox is considered as puffs worst matchup.

Mango also beats M2Ks Marth with Falco.

 

[Dart!]

I think you only won vs my Puff once, and it was the first match I had played as her. So really, I was just getting used to her aerial movement/spacing and options. Plus I SD'd twice that match trying to do things on the ledge. Puff beats Marth in the air. Puff can manipulate Marth while he is grounded to make it in her favor. Once I started abusing her movement, you had a severe problem with doing *any* move in response, and then being punished for it. This is Puff's game: wait till they do anything and punish them for it, or out prioritize via bair. Unfortunately, Marth isn't very good at winning that game. It doesn't matter that Marth technically outranges Puff. Puff can beat slight disadvantages in priority via baiting and movement, which is a huge disadvantage for Marth due to how slow he is.

And that's just the waaaaaay it issssss.

Is it me or is marth always going to fall for the baiting game?
IMO a good marth shouldn't get baited into something, they should be able to throw out fair and not get baited into being ***** EVERYTIME

 

[Nø Ca$h]

marth as a character has amazing potential. we just need to get more accuracy and get better at spacing. XD

 

[Aesir]

Marth sucks;

He's slow

Blind spots in many of his moves

Gets ***** by sheik to hard.

 

[Dart!]

Marth sucks;

He's slow

Blind spots in many of his moves

Gets ***** by sheik to hard.

Strawhat where you at?

 

[ChaosNoobSlayer]

Hi, Im new to boards and I play marth. Ive been working on advance techniques for awhile and I think I have a pretty ok marth. Im not MewtwoKing but I can hold my own against good players.

Are there any general tips that could make getting better easier? Mindset, strategies, anything helps really.

Thanks

 

[Kaffei]

Hi, Im new to boards and I play marth. Ive been working on advance techniques for awhile and I think I have a pretty ok marth. Im not MewtwoKing but I can hold my own against good players.

Are there any general tips that could make getting better easier? Mindset, strategies, anything helps really.

Thanks

This is very general and very vague, but try to move as efficiently and quickly as possible.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

Hi, Im new to boards and I play marth. Ive been working on advance techniques for awhile and I think I have a pretty ok marth. Im not MewtwoKing but I can hold my own against good players.

Are there any general tips that could make getting better easier? Mindset, strategies, anything helps really.

Thanks

always try to space yourself. when you hit them with fair you want to hit them with the tip. not only because of the sweet spot, but because its much safer.

 

[ChaosNoobSlayer]

Its the tip of Marth's forward air that sends them up correct?