Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[JBM falcon08]

Just so people know

Arcnatural is arcnatural.

Austinrc is ARC.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

I was watching the vids from intimikill
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1Fxc_rpD0s&feature=related

That Arcnatural?

 

[ZoSo]

No.

 

[ZoSo]

and arc does that **** really work? because I gave up on dtilting because spawn would punish that **** all day.

Sure does. You need to watch your spacing though, particularly when doing it out of a run because you slide forward quite a ways.

The most consistent method is to dtilt and hold away so you turn around exactly on the IASA frame, but if you see that your spacing was off, you should dash away. Because nobody shield grabs frame perfectly, this will often work even though it doesn't technically "work."

 

[Niko45]

Just to be clear, are you talking about a misspaced dtilt to bait a shield grab? You're not saying a spaced dtilt can be shield grabbed are you?

 

[Strong Badam]

using dtilt to bait stuff is pretty basic. most people are stupid and think they can punish it. dtilt to dashdance murder is 2 good.

 

[Jun.]

NVM ARC

i'm sure your bairs are good though LOL

 

[ArcNatural]

Just to be clear, are you talking about a misspaced dtilt to bait a shield grab? You're not saying a spaced dtilt can be shield grabbed are you?

Dtilt is safe for more than just perfectly spaced. However, Marth/Sheik can grab the dtilt hurtbox (not sure about perfectly spaced, but for most of the others they can) since their grabs are long (ie Magus' old sig).

Turning around enables you to avoid this as long as your not ridiculously close.

And yes the ARC from Intimikill is AustinRC. Props to him though for beating Darkrain.

 

[Jun.]

In that Intimikill ARC vs Hazygoose I saw something peculiar

I saw the marth dtilt the sheik's shield in grab range for sure then dash danced back out of grab range thus baiting a grab. I'm not sure if its the sheik player's mistake in not grabbing fast enough but it looked almost perfect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmhgUUfl1FA
watch from 2:35 with the dtilt happening at 2:37

 

[ArcNatural]

In that Intimikill ARC vs Haygoose or something I saw something peculiar

I saw the marth dtilt the sheik's shield in grab range for sure then dash danced back out of grab range thus baiting a grab. I'm not sure if its the sheik player's mistake in not grabbing fast enough but it looked almost perfect.

You can be pretty close and it will still work, dashing out frame perfect from a dtilt is much harder than just holding away to turn around though.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

I really need to stop spamming dtilt or quickly use the jab to repel any shield grabbers after 1 dtilt into their shield. Dashing away and coming back with a grab opens so many more options.

I have a suggestion for a really close up d-tilt that you really messed up the spacing on(or could be doing it intentionally, haha)
How about dashing through them instead of away? It would work on shield grabs(except Falcon's and Ganon's grab, which starts behind them, but this suggestion is mostly for sheik/marth), but eventually they could be doing things like shine OoS or aerial OoS to punish it...but that's why you would switch it up with dashing away from them, seeing as how they gotta get past the jump frames to attack.

Dash through them, crouch cancel dash into tipper fsmashing that missed grab?

 

[Niko45]

You have to be careful tho, characters like sheik and marth can WD OOS at you and punish for dashing away after dtilt.

 

[Strong Badam]

they still can't catch up to you if you continue to dash <_<

also, ARC is like the only marth to ever beat Darkrain. like... ever...

 

[Niko45]

they still can't catch up to you if you continue to dash <_<

also, ARC is like the only marth to ever beat Darkrain. like... ever...

Continue to dash? Marth certainly has the range to catch and you can't dash forever.

Also strawhat demolished darkrain in Pound 4 pools. Darkrain has never looked particularly great vs. Marth imo.

 

[Winston]

Against falcon, falcons will approach you with a dash or a short hopped aerial both of which ftilt shuts down. Dtilt might shut off his dashed approach but ftilt's hitbox is high enough where it covers both approaches.

I tried it, it worked. Try it.

The thing is falcon's main "approach" is neither of these, but running forward to look like they're doing one of those, and then running back. i.e. dashdance baiting.
Since ftilt isn't instantaneous and reaction time isn't perfect, if you want to stuff his approach you'll have to do it a little before he commits to doing the move, meaning if he's actually not doing the move and just runs back, you'll whiff and he'll get to hit you with anything. Which often means death since he's falcon.

Now if he's flying straight at you with a telegraphed nair this can work, but in that case shieldgrabbing/cc grabbing/dd grab/wd back anything is probably a better option than ftilt.

F-tilt is like Marth's most underrated move.

I'd like to hear about this. I mean the move is great for edgeguarding, but is there more to it than that? "underrated" implies that there is...

Ftilt ***** fox and falcos side B.

basically assume they'll side b and prepare to ftilt them, and just react to the up-b.

I love using ftilt to cover illusion, but I feel like space animals can get past it if they shorten the illusion. So it isn't foolproof.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

I'd like to hear about this. I mean the move is great for edgeguarding, but is there more to it than that? "underrated" implies that there is...

The ftilt also goes above Marth a little. If you don't have enough time to get that tipper smash when they're on a platform above you or they're a little past the fsmash's arc, that ftilt will hit them.
Also, ftilt comes out faster than fsmash, increasing its chances of hitting after fthrows.

As for edgeguarding, the fact that it starts at Marth's feet greatly enhances its utility. Say a link or a falcon up-b's above the edge and see you throwing out an fsmash. They can just fastfall and beat the fsmash as it tries to come down on them, grabbing the edge. The ftilt comes up, like a dtilt for people above the edge. But you probably already knew that. haha

On another note, ftilt makes you crouch a little when using it. Good for falco's with inconsistent ledge-hop lasers.

Those are my uses of ftilt....don't know what Dark Sonic might say.
oh, yes! after 1 side-b, I will either uptilt or ftilt depending on the other character's DI. Those 2 attacks are all I need to finish the 1 side-b.

 

[Jun.]

The thing is falcon's main "approach" is neither of these, but running forward to look like they're doing one of those, and then running back. i.e. dashdance baiting.

No marth should let a falcon dash dance freely. The moment he does this, marth will start having trouble. Take him to a small stage, mainly yoshi/fod/battlefield and shove him to the side of the stage with our broken priority and don't give him any room to dash dance. This subconcious tactic is why I believe falcons are hard to fight on FD and Dreamland because its hard to contain falcon to a advantageous area.This also should apply to foxes and even other marths.

a bait is not a approach in my book.

Worst comes to worst, if the falcon starts DD camping you, just DD camp back especially on the bigger stages ie DL64, FD, Pokemon. Marth has scary options out of our own DD and with our range and edgeguarding tools the falcon should be more afraid of us.

 

[Winston]

I know the basics of the matchup >.> I mean the matchup is pretty even, both DD a lot, marth tries to control space, falcon tries to get an opening

I'm just explaining why I don't think ftilt should be a go-to move in the matchup. (Because you have to start it before he's committed to a move, and it's very punishable on block and when you miss).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I find a lot of times that while marth's initial dash is very quick, his following run animation is very lacking when playing other fast characters. Something tec0 suggested to me but i havent put to use very much is to dash and then do an immediate wd which covers quite a bit more distance than dashing and you can dash again right after.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Oh, I wasn't talking about f-tilt against Falcon. F-tilt sucks balls in that matchup.

I was talking about using it in general. It's a great move against Marth (yay dittoes), Ganon, or Jigglypuff because of it's speed and range (and the fact that Marth doesn't extend his hurtbox nearly as far as he does during f-smash.) You can use it to intercept their approach with relatively little risk to yourself (a lot less risk than throwing out an f-smash anyway, which will probably just get you hit before your move even comes out).

It starts low and goes up, making it a better edgeguard move than f-smash in a few situations against other characters (the mentioned spacies an Falcon/Ganon). You can just throw it out on spacies to stop a side B (though there are better options for this. This is only for if you don't have time to setup a better edgeguard), and if they don't side B you still have time to react to their up B.

And really, it's not all that weak. A tipped f-tilt is stronger than an untipped f-smash that's for sure. So you can use it to set up edgeguards at higher percents where you have a tough time comboing into anything worthwhile.


Don't use it against Falcon though <_<. You'll get ***** for it. F-tilt is no safer than F-smash when the opponent can run halfway across the stage in half a second)

 

[Winston]

Yeah, okay, that makes sense. I was thinking mostly about Falcon and spacies and it doesn't seem to have much of a place there, but it does seem good vs Ganon and some other characters.

Okay kind of related to ftilt: can Marth cover both the shortened illusion sweetspot and the non-shortened illusion onto the stage at the same time?

I mean the space animal jumps up to the height/distance where a shortened illusion would sweetspot, and so they could do either one. Whenever I try a move that covers the non-shortened it seems like the shortened one avoids it. Am I not standing far enough out at the edge? Or does like jab twice work or something?

 

[ArcNatural]

No marth should let a falcon dash dance freely. The moment he does this, marth will start having trouble. Take him to a small stage, mainly yoshi/fod/battlefield and shove him to the side of the stage with our broken priority and don't give him any room to dash dance. This subconcious tactic is why I believe falcons are hard to fight on FD and Dreamland because its hard to contain falcon to a advantageous area.This also should apply to foxes and even other marths.

I don't see any of this really preventing Falcon from dash dancing. You can force him to try to exploit openings, but it's just like Fox where he can just evade you. The only difference is Falcon doesn't have the safety of a one frame cover move so you have more chances to grab/hit him when he does approach.

a bait is not a approach in my book.

This seems a limited way of thinking to me. In all fighting games, baiting is a staple thing to learn to create openings. While you may not think it's a true approach, that does not stop Falcon from abusing his speed to force you to make decisions before he has to. He is the faster character, which causes the slower character to have to be more pre-emptive when they choose to attack, and given Falcon's ground speed he can easily mess up Marth's spacing.

If you think about it, if Falcon is at Tipper range standing still. If you forward smash he can literally dash and shield then shieldgrab you. That's how fast his dash can throw off the spacing. I'm not saying that this is likely to happen, I'm just pointing out that most of Marth's attacks can not be easily spaced if Falcon moves and shields properly as an approach.

Worst comes to worst, if the falcon starts DD camping you, just DD camp back especially on the bigger stages ie DL64, FD, Pokemon. Marth has scary options out of our own DD and with our range and edgeguarding tools the falcon should be more afraid of us.

The problem here is Falcon's DD camp is stronger than Marth's. Usually what you said IS the strategy on bigger stages, particularly camping near the edge while Falcon pretty much camps the rest of the stage. Regardless, it still is an advantage to Falcon on most bigger stages, with it being even or in Marth's favor on the mid-size and smaller stages.

 

[Jun.]

A falcon can't dash dance if he's in your range

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXX2inAl77M

that match sums up every one of my points. Dahean constantly shoves falcon to the side of the stage where he is in range and rarely is the marth ever closer to the edge than the falcon. The few times where marth is near the edge is when he starts losing. With our arsenal of tilts and aerials, the falcon also won't be able to pass us too easily.

this also solves the problem of him baiting you

how is he gonna bait you, if he has nowhere to run granted that you aren't doing dumb things like Fsmashing at a standstill. Almost every falcon including Darkrain in this case, will slowly start dash dancing away from you fearing your approach or he'll rush into his approach both of which is advantageous for us.

make him dash dance camp where he fears for his life

 

[Winston]

That match didn't support your argument at all... Darkrain is crazy aggressive. Almost every time Dahean got a hit it was because Darkrain ran straight at him with an aerial while he was in a neutral position.

Watch the same Marth player on the same stage at the same tournament vs. a campier Falcon that knows how to punish Marth's openings:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9yCB85Jdc0

I mean SS was hardly ever blatantly running away, but he dashdance/jumped around just outside of Dahean's range in the majority of the neutral situations, and was able to punish almost any advancing move that Dahean did.

If you're saying that Marth WANTS to push falcon to the edge of the stage to limit his space, then I agree. But if you're saying that that's straightforward to do, or that ftilt somehow helps you do that, then that's definitely not right.

 

[Jun.]

If you watch the match closesly, Strawhat loses because he retreats from SS instead of pushing him towards the edge

for instance
@1:35 retreating fairs cost him a stock

Just watch the match and where they are and who wins that stock. Dahean also didn't stay on the ground enough and instead threw out empty fairs in which SS punished by getting in between its lag time.

Simply put he gave him too much room. But then against pressuring SilentSpectre on his counterpick probably isn't too easy to do.

 

[Dark Sonic]

You're missing his point. It's not that Strawhat GAVE him too much room, it's that Marth can't actually shut Falcon down on those big stages.

 

[Jun.]

back to my original point on avoiding large stages.

Don't know what he was thinking taking SS back to FD

 

[Tee ay eye]

marths ftilt has almost the same lateral range as his jab

although, it does have a pretty nice tipper, a lot more vertical coverage, and its slowness/duration could help to throw people off

 

[Tee ay eye]

@Dark Sonic: Oh wow, i never thought about how Marth's ftilt goes bottom up. I always subconsciously knew it, but that makes decision making even easier

that's really good to know

<3

 

[ArcNatural]

If you watch the match closesly, Strawhat loses because he retreats from SS instead of pushing him towards the edge

for instance
@1:35 retreating fairs cost him a stock

Just watch the match and where they are and who wins that stock. Dahean also didn't stay on the ground enough and instead threw out empty fairs in which SS punished by getting in between its lag time.

Simply put he gave him too much room. But then against pressuring SilentSpectre on his counterpick probably isn't too easy to do.

back to my original point on avoiding large stages.

Don't know what he was thinking taking SS back to FD

Your theorycrafting a little too reaching here. Strawhat doesn't just lose everything he knew playing Darkrain and somehow forgot to apply it to SilentSpectre. Both SS and Darkrain are excellent Falcons as well as Strawhat being an excellent Marth.

Extreme top levels of play for even matches are usually bad for proving points, because it's much more about the player than character matchups. Whether SS was better at intimidation and baiting, or Strawhat wasn't as campy doesn't matter. All the players in these scenarios know exactly how the matchup is theorycraft wise. There is always a counter to what your saying, as well as a counter for what I say. "Doing this" fails, you can only have the concept, the match is played and based off instant reactions of spacing.

Falcon doesn't really suffer on any of the stages against Marth that are currently legal. FoD is almost a sure ban the next worse would be Yoshi's Island. Which honestly isn't horrible for Falcon but it is in Marth's favor. Then it would be Battlefield, which I feel is even in this matchup and very player dependent. The rest of the stages I believe are slightly in Falcon's favor. So at best Marth is only going to have 1 advantage stage in a bo3 or bo5 set. The rest will be even or Falcon's advantage.

So I don't see how your logic of avoiding larger stages works here. FD/BF/PS at that level of play would be however comfortable said player feels on that stage. DL would probably be the Marth ban or at least the worst neutral stage for Marth in general.

 

[Jun.]

In a 3 round set chances are yes you're gonna have to end up at FD/PS/DL. But with stage striking and a counterpick you have say in 2/3 of the stages played in the set and a good chance of knocking out at least FD and DL.

no use talking about it though. We all agree there is no auto win formula against falcon, especially these days :/

 

[Dynamism?]

I need help. I don't know if anyone here would bother but I'm posting this anyway.

I've really been struggling to narrow down the characters I use in tournament, etc. (a main in general really) I simply can't decide who to play. I enjoy playing them all and have been successful in MMs and tourneys with each of them so none of that has cleared this up for me or been an issue, I just simply don't know who to stick with so even use random often.

If anyone cares about having 1 more Marth player, or wants me to stick with him if you know me or anything, please vote. :\

Any input is good but meaningless votes are completely welcome too if you don't know me/don't care but would still want me to play Marth or something.
I just need help.

Thanks. hahah
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10468126#post10468126

 

[Strong Badam]

yo dawgs..... i just play based off of what works and what doesn't.... and change when something stops working... am i doin it right?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i'd change before it stops working, unless the person is a scrub and won't notice whats working and whats not and will take 3 games before they mix it up.

 

[Strong Badam]

pretty much i was saying that i adapt

 

[ChivalRuse]

i'd change before it stops working

It's hard to make a point for this, since it all depends on the exact circumstances.

 

[KAOSTAR]

i'd change before it stops working, unless the person is a scrub and won't notice whats working and whats not and will take 3 games before they mix it up.

So ideally you never do the same thing twice. You ARE the best player in the world Sveet lol.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

well duh sometimes you do the same thing twice. idk about the people you play, but around here people dont usually fall for the same thing twice unless they suck

 

[KAOSTAR]

Lol dam, and you play with the 2nd-rest of the best players in the world too. How do you do it?

on a serious note lol, Whats the best way to punish a crouching jiggz right in front of you, I dont have alot of jiggz practice and it caught me a little off guard in tourney. Should I do running grabs or just get the **** away from him and try to Fsmash or something?

 

[ArcNatural]

Lol dam, and you play with the 2nd-rest of the best players in the world too. How do you do it?

on a serious note lol, Whats the best way to punish a crouching jiggz right in front of you, I dont have alot of jiggz practice and it caught me a little off guard in tourney. Should I do running grabs or just get the **** away from him and try to Fsmash or something?

Just pay attention to your spacing and dtilt. Running grabs work ok if they don't expect.

Just don't do anything that allows you to get grabbed/rested/fsmashed from a CC. If your wary of the CC it's usually the Fsmash you have to watch out for.