Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Fortress | Sveet]

Falco can be great in 2v1. I mean, you're talking about a character that can attack anyone on the stage with a lagless move then turn around and kick the guy next to him in the face. Falco is god on the stage, and ****ed once he gets hit off.

 

[Dart!]

If you're good you shouldn't fall for such mindgames. Falco CAN BE good in 2v1 but not really. where as fox has an easy way to gimp and make it a 1v1 situation. 2v1 is tough as it is, only a handful of chars have the tools for it honestly.

 

[Niko45]

Falco is pretty great 2v1 I'd say.

 

[KAOSTAR]

fox is way better 2v1. fox takes hits better too.

i think falco is more easily trapped.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Falco has better range and spacing while fox has better running away skills. Depends more on which style you prefer.

 

[Animal]

yo marths fyi its 2010. wanna stop living in 08 and figure out something new? bahahah

 

[Niko45]

yo marths fyi its 2010. wanna stop living in 08 and figure out something new? bahahah

At least we still **** fox.

 

[JBM falcon08]

Marth i still think has potential.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Marth i still think has potential.

This. I think Marths need to forget that they want to do **** punishment like mew2krazy and just focus on being safe. He suffers from it too, you watch that match vs Armada and you're thinking why, why is he grabbing and F Smashing and unnecessairily double jumping and dash attacking AND all of that punishable stuff, when he could shuffle F Airs and space tilts all day and there's not much she can do about it? Marth's need to apply their moveset better and only commit when they know they can because lucky old Marth has the luxury of NOT having to.

/endpoorlyarticulatedrant.

 

[GMhyprid]

Also jab seems to stop a lot of approaches as well. I have some questions about it.

When does jab connect into something other than jab? Sometimes jab to grab works against a Fox approaching with an aerial.

In particular, these are some things I'm curious about with linking jab and something else:
- the other character
- how far off the ground the other character is when hit by the jab
- the spacing of the jab.

 

[Dart!]

yo marths fyi its 2010. wanna stop living in 08 and figure out something new? bahahah

Don't you main fox?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Jab never combos with anything. You can link it into something else if you can get a minor read on your opponent.

 

[KAOSTAR]

This. I think Marths need to forget that they want to do **** punishment like mew2krazy and just focus on being safe. He suffers from it too, you watch that match vs Armada and you're thinking why, why is he grabbing and F Smashing and unnecessairily double jumping and dash attacking AND all of that punishable stuff, when he could shuffle F Airs and space tilts all day and there's not much she can do about it? Marth's need to apply their moveset better and only commit when they know they can because lucky old Marth has the luxury of NOT having to.

/endpoorlyarticulatedrant.

thats why people bait attacks. or laser camp.

those dj are for spacing and baiting. if you hold off on doing the fair its not usually safe to approach marth. but he isn't GOD.

its hard to always know. I think its better if marth can keep his spacing while being able to move quickly, more aggressive but still passive. you gotta be able to look vulnerable without being that way.

 

[ChivalRuse]

M2K jumps a lot vs Peach to eliminate dash attack and dsmash, I think? I could be wrong.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

dash attack > jump

 

[ChivalRuse]

Correct double jump camping gets around dash attack though, it seems.

 

[Dart!]

but then you have no jump.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Those double jumps sure helped m2k vs armada on his last stock game 1 at pound4.

 

[Niko45]

DJing does seem to work sometimes against peach, but the risk reward probably is not worth it overall. Peaches like Armada are aware of it and are looking for it, too, so you could get gimped if you do it too often or at all.

 

[KAOSTAR]

im pretty sure you want to shuffle a fair but then the spacing is wrong so you use dj to retreat or re space instead of attacking.

it can also bait attacks or shields. just as long as you mix it up it seems pretty good.

 

[Dart!]

i think the main problem with marths today is thinking that matchups are "easy" anymore. people are getting better with certain characters and the matchups are changing. peach falcon samus ganondorf come to mind.

 

[KAOSTAR]

are you saying the MU's aren't as easy, or that the biggest problem is thinking they are harder-some sort of mind over matter bit.

 

[Dart!]

are you saying the MU's aren't as easy, or that the biggest problem is thinking they are harder-some sort of mind over matter bit.

i'm saying people think the matchups are EASY. like peach for example. the matchup isn't as easy as it used to be. People just need to recognize

And then it could be personal weaknesses too.

M2k< Puff

Me < certain Peaches

some of its personal exp too.

 

[Tee ay eye]

i hate marth's old matchup odds

cuz people using other chars (namely Puff, Falcon, Peach, half the mid tiers) will be like, Marth absolutely and utterly ***** (insert character) when the other person is just dumb and using like, 06 numbers

 

[_wzrd]

i hate marth's old matchup odds

cuz people using other chars (namely Puff, Falcon, Peach, half the mid tiers) will be like, Marth absolutely and utterly ***** (insert character) when the other person is just dumb and using like, 06 numbers

agreed.

and i actually have personal weakness against floaties who are traditionally bad vs marth (esp peach/jiggs).

i do quite fine against fast fallers, and even sheik(weird huh) and ganon.

what do you think the new numbers should be?

say for peach, jiggs, ganon, samus, falcon/any other matchups should be like?

 

[Niko45]

Yea when ur playing scrubs or people who know nothing about Marth you get a ton of Marth johns. Then if you play anybody (of any main) who is decent at the game they love their chances against Marth (compared to spacies/puff, especially).

My matchups would be:

Fox: 55-45
Falco: 50-50
Puff: 40-60
Sheik: 40-60
CF: 45-55
Peach: 55-45
Ganon: 50-50
Samus: 60-40
ICs: 60-40
Doc: 55-45

I just use 55-45 when both characters clearly can beat each other, but one has a more practical/simpler method to success.

 

[KAOSTAR]

which perspective are the numbers given from, marth vs x or x vs marth.

edit probably marth vs x based on numbers not close to equal lol

 

[Niko45]

Lol yea its Marth vs X.

I also do agree there is a lack of Marths, particularly Marth's that are not only good, but exceptionally, stand-out good. There are some, though. However, it doesn't really change my mind that Marth is 5th best in the game. For instance, I consider HBK to be a Marth main who is exceptionally good at the game overall, but I easily think he'd have had more success if he'd been a fox main or something from day one.

 

[Blistering Speed]

thats why people bait attacks. or laser camp.

Thanks for stating fundamental mechanics. The point is if you get baited you don't get *****. How do unnecessary F Smashes and DJs stop laser camping more then anything else?

those dj are for spacing and baiting.

Again, thanks for the mechanics.

its hard to always know. I think its better if marth can keep his spacing while being able to move quickly, more aggressive but still passive. you gotta be able to look vulnerable without being that way.

Or you can just not be as vulnerable.

 

[KAOSTAR]

the djs allow you to re space. you jump at them but if you fair you will be too close, so you dj and fade back instead..

I was saying you can't always know if its safe because ppl bait attacks. even shielding can be bad.

you can't jab forever. I see what you are saying but its alot harder to pull off.

if marth is always safe if just laser camp. a true master has to ruse and confuse. seem vulnerable to bait an attack and punish.

I think instead of winning 1 coin at a time, good players gamble and go for bigger payouts. if you can tip the odds in your favor its more practical to go for the higher reward.

 

[_wzrd]

yeah, i hate marth johns...i get it from peach/jiggz esp who say its like 70-30 in my favor and they are "not playing well" if i win. but brag about how good they are vs marth if i lose, or its really close.

ahh johns, they cover every option. i think i need to man up and just tell them to shut up and play, or stop playing if they feel off.

i don't know how much i agree with the numbers, but they are seem very close and i am more than sure that you have much more experience in all of those matchups.

thanks for them though, and i may come in asking some more specific questions around the time of my tournament/smashfest as ill be playing with much better players :D

 

[Dart!]

Yea when ur playing scrubs or people who know nothing about Marth you get a ton of Marth johns. Then if you play anybody (of any main) who is decent at the game they love their chances against Marth (compared to spacies/puff, especially).

My matchups would be:

Fox: 55-45
Falco: 50-50
Puff: 40-60
Sheik: 40-60
CF: 45-55
Peach: 55-45
Ganon: 50-50
Samus: 60-40
ICs: 60-40
Doc: 55-45

I just use 55-45 when both characters clearly can beat each other, but one has a more practical/simpler method to success.

for me it would be

Fox: 45-55 *on stadium* everywhere else is even
Falco: 55-45
CF: 55-45
Sheik:40-60
Puff:60-40
Peach: 45-55
Ganon:55-45
Samus:60-40
ICs:65-35
Doc:65-35

again...this is me personally

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

No way marf has adv on falcon. Falcon is at least as bad as fox, if not worse.

i agree with the rest tho.

 

[Dart!]

i gave myself the 55-45 because so far in tourney i am 5-1 against falcons of at least my skill level.

 

[Niko45]

Ya'll should play a good doc. Its actually quite a pain in the ***.

 

[ChivalRuse]

ICs:65-35

I love you.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i gave myself the 55-45 because so far in tourney i am 5-1 against falcons of at least my skill level.

I think you're including people who don't actually know the match-up. Marth >> Falcon if they don't understand the match-up.

 

[Niko45]

I used to think CF was fine for Marth but I think its as you move up the ladder and CFs start to venture into not just being good, but unbelievably good, that they start beating Marth. They only need one or two hits per stock to beat Marth.

 

[Palpi]

Aren't marth's combos on Falcon fairly limited if the falcon knows what he is doing?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Not really, he is a fast faller. Marth loves fast fallers.

The match-up is even-ish. By even-ish i mean the match-up is about who is more patient. Falcon has an easier time running around without throwing attacks, so he has an easier time tricking/forcing marth into committing and i'd put the match-up into his favor. When i've played falcons who really know the matchup, it feels worse than sheik any time falcon has room to run. What keeps the match-up playable is the combos.



... though i still will go fox every time vs a good falcon.