Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[KAOSTAR]

I actually need to practice that ****. I always roll lol, SDI *****.

 

[Niko45]

Whats the best thing to do against a Falco that SHL camps you underneath a platform?

Eat a laser and dash attack/run at them and grab/fair OOS?

WD back and forth OOS trying to bait an approach?

Try to time possibly a non FF SH fair/nair over the laser?

 

[Staco]

Whats the best thing to do against a Falco that SHL camps you underneath a platform?

Eat a laser and dash attack/run at them and grab/fair OOS?

WD back and forth OOS trying to bait an approach?

Try to time possibly a non FF SH fair/nair over the laser?

Mix it up.
It always depends on what the Falco is doing next.
For example, if he just spams, even if U are approaching from above, U could just counter into his laser and hit him with it.

WD back to FSmash should also work against the FTilt spammy Samus. xD

 

[Dark Sonic]

you could run up and powershield the laser for a free grab. If you're not comfortable with powershielding, there's also

shorthop (eat a laser) falling fair/uair immediately.

Believe it or not if you're close enough you can even d-smash them and THEN get hit by the laser (lag cancel?). uh...don't do this one too much <_<

Then there's the generic solutions like counter or the stuff you mentioned

 

[ChivalRuse]

For how many fewer frames are you stunned if you CC one of Falco's lasers? Anyone know?

 

[Niko45]

you could run up and powershield the laser for a free grab. If you're not comfortable with powershielding, there's also

shorthop (eat a laser) falling fair/uair immediately.

Believe it or not if you're close enough you can even d-smash them and THEN get hit by the laser (lag cancel?). uh...don't do this one too much <_<

Then there's the generic solutions like counter or the stuff you mentioned

I honestly powershield quite well but in tournament I lose confidence in it and start looking for these alternate methods when I should really just trust my PS probably.

 

[Tee ay eye]

is it normal that campers give me significantly more trouble than everyone else when referring to fox, falco, sheik, and falcon?

like, it's not just, "campers annoy me"

it's like, a campy player that's worse than me will do exponentially better against me than a non-campy player that's at my level

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah. Until you learn how to out camp them. See linguini vs kels to understand the general concept ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AltMcPeuI6U ) Linguini never really approaches and literally out camps the camper lol

 

[Tee ay eye]

yeah, that's probably it

i'm probably just playing too closely to the camper's script, which is why i get ***** by it

except, when i countercamp, i don't feel that they ever budge. maybe i have to just camp harder with a mixture of finding the holes in their tents

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Im not very good at it myself. I tend to approach and either win (if i'm better than them) or get *****. Its one of the things i'm trying to work on right now.

 

[Tee ay eye]

it's honestly probably one of marth's biggest weaknesses, but i guess it's not impossible so we have to quit johning and accept it since our character is still only 5th at very worst

 

[KAOSTAR]

Im not very good at it myself. I tend to approach and either win (if i'm better than them) or get *****. Its one of the things i'm trying to work on right now.

Im having the same problem. I always run in trying to get fox.

its like trying to catch the road runner while using an acme sword, ****s hella gay.

 

[Niko45]

Interesting, I don't find Marth particularly difficult to break camping with. His range is incredible and forces people to do things if you invade their space.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Whenever I feel like I'm being hard camped by a Fox or Falco I just slow it down and start doing things like WALKING to approach. If they're going to let me setup my perfect spacing with their back to the ledge just to get 12% on me with lasers, I think that's a fine trade (one fair does 12% anyway).

Falcon on the other hand I find much harder to deal with when he camps properly, but only when it comes time to try to kill him. Racking up damage is easy enough, but I have the problem of comboing TOO well (as in, I don't finish early enough), so comboing into kill moves becomes difficult and Marth can't really just throw them out. <_<


Sheik is an on or off kinda thing. If you know how to combo her really well, then it's not so bad since you'll easily make up the damage she did to you.

 

[Niko45]

Yea Falcon is more difficult to break, but also gains nothing from camping you if you don't do anything at all. His approach sucks too, so I just don't give it to him for free. Breaking camping is really about being extra patient through needles and lasers and whatever, but not abandoning looking for an opening.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah but marth can't do much to stop falcon's camping, which is why he > marth

 

[Niko45]

Yeah but marth can't do much to stop falcon's camping, which is why he > marth

What can Falcon do to stop Marth's camping? The basis for the Falcon > Marth argument has always been Falcon's crazy punish game, not that Marth gets helplessly camped from neutral position.

 

[Staco]

it's honestly probably one of marth's biggest weaknesses, but i guess it's not impossible so we have to quit johning and accept it since our character is still only 5th at very worst

Watch M2K for example against different Falcos or against Jman.
He never gets camped out.
He tries to stay in mid distance without getting hit and without letting the enemy the chance to camp him.
I think its really a hard thing to get around camping, but if U get better it will get less of a problem. (U learn a lot of really important things against it, for example PS against Falco or the right timing to use the down B)

And Falcon camping never was a really big problem for me since now, because he doesnt has got any projectiles.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Falcon has a much bigger effective range. He can threaten marth from a distance that marth can't threaten him, putting marth on the defensive and putting him in the position that if he doesn't do something to protect himself (attack, shield, roll) he will likely get hit.

This matchup is just as hard as sheik if the falcon plays it properly.

 

[Niko45]

Falcon has a much bigger effective range. He can threaten marth from a distance that marth can't threaten him, putting marth on the defensive and putting him in the position that if he doesn't do something to protect himself (attack, shield, roll) he will likely get hit.

This matchup is just as hard as sheik if the falcon plays it properly.

Nah CF is just fine for Marth. Any extra attack range is moot bc an extended SH aerial is telegraphed and marth can just react. CF doesn't force Marth to commit to anything at all without first committing himself. The matchup is even from neutral position and falcon punishes a bit harder, is all. In my experience I've never lost to a CF player that wasn't also a great player in general. I can't say the same for sheik, unfortunately.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Yeah. Until you learn how to out camp them. See linguini vs kels to understand the general concept ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AltMcPeuI6U ) Linguini never really approaches and literally out camps the camper lol

Linguini outcamps Kels because Kels tries to force the kill when he has a monster lead and approaches stupidly.

He also doesn't know the secret to edgeguarding Ganon at 100%+ (~110 on Dreamland).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Nah CF is just fine for Marth. Any extra attack range is moot bc an extended SH aerial is telegraphed and marth can just react. CF doesn't force Marth to commit to anything at all without first committing himself. The matchup is even from neutral position and falcon punishes a bit harder, is all. In my experience I've never lost to a CF player that wasn't also a great player in general. I can't say the same for sheik, unfortunately.

Sheik is easy mode. You can do the strategies to beat marth at just about any level. CF requires more skill. You might simply be at the level where the CFs at your level aren't good enough to win via this strategy.

Linguini outcamps Kels because Kels tries to force the kill when he has a monster lead and approaches stupidly.

He also doesn't know the secret to edgeguarding Ganon at 100%+ (~110 on Dreamland).

Lol yeah that too. Kels was choking that set.

 

[Niko45]

I guess I just disagree on CF. Like when I play Hax the issue is not that I can't hit him but he just kills me faster. He'll just catch me overpursuing or something and bair -> grab -> stock. It feels like if I was just better and stopped running into hits I could win a lot. In other words, it feels like its my fault for losing not that the matchup is too overpowering or anything.

 

[maXXXpower]

what do you do against a samus that just spams ftilt on your sheild

LOL

grab more, Taiger.

or play Falcon.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I guess I just disagree on CF. Like when I play Hax the issue is not that I can't hit him but he just kills me faster. He'll just catch me overpursuing or something and bair -> grab -> stock. It feels like if I was just better and stopped running into hits I could win a lot. In other words, it feels like its my fault for losing not that the matchup is too overpowering or anything.

Thats exactly what i'm saying, marth has to over commit in order to get his hits in. Falcon does punish better than marth, but i dont have too many problems comboing or killing falcon once i get a hit or a grab.

The biggest problem in my mind is that falcon can sh aerial and it beats marth's dtilt and dash attack approaches (you go under and he stomps you up and then you get kneed, ect) while falcon's nair approach beats or trades with everything a lot of the things marth does.

Once you start something on falcon, you can really do a lot. Dthrow tech chase, uthrow utilt/fair, basically anything that gets him off the stage is a kill. The problem is not only does he have easier and better combos and a good edge guard on marth, but he has many more opportunities to land his hits.

 

[Tee ay eye]

LOL

grab more, Taiger.

or play Falcon.

can you really grab it?

 

[unknown522]

can you really grab it?

Probably if you Shield DI but otherwise you shouldn't be able to I'd imagine. If they space.

Just jump out and Fair ffs you're Marth.

- KK

 

[Niko45]

If they actually are spamming ftilt you can just shield the first ftilt, WD at them, shield second ftilt, grab.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Sounds too complicated. Why not just wavedash out of shield, CC fsmash (or even CC -> dash -> JC grab at lower percents)?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Sounds too complicated. Why not just fair out of shield or WD backwards and fsmash his foot when he ftilts again.

 

[Staco]

about Falcon:
U can also just FSmash or UTilt Falcon out of his aerials.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

yeah i use utilt a lot. Its marth's version of the shine except its much laggier and gets you ***** if they bait it

 

[Staco]

yeah i use utilt a lot. Its marth's version of the shine except its much laggier and gets you ***** if they bait it

I also like to use FSmash to get them to the egde/offstage, since Falcons recovery sucks and if he is close to the edge U are able to pressure him really well.
I also think FSmash is easier to hit, since it covers more area in front of you than the UTilt.
UTilt against DJ, FSmash against SH = lesk risk that they successfully bait you? + UTilt is really effective if they have no jump left.
It also maybe depens on the percentages.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Sounds too complicated. Why not just fair out of shield or WD backwards and fsmash his foot when he ftilts again.

I stand corrected.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I really dont like using fsmash vs competent players. There are definitely situations where it can work, but especially on larger stages where its harder to pin them down into a good fsmash situation its very easy to get your fsmash baited or just wiff and get punished really hard.

I prefer to use it in edge guarding and stuff.

I stand corrected.

I like both ideas, CC fsmashing samus' ftilt is actually a good idea that i'm gonna try next time

 

[Niko45]

How in god's name is it a good idea to WD in, take damage, and middle sword fsmash Samus which leads to 0 follow up, can be CC'd itself, and won't start killing until 350%? Just get a grab or fair...

As for CF, I'm not committing to up tilt or fsmash at all until its safe (like on tech chase or following up safer moves like fair/up air). You aren't going to be able to approach CF with fsmash more than like once every 10 matches.

 

[ChivalRuse]

You wouldn't have to fsmash. When you CC something, you have more options than when you shield something. You could just take the ftilt, then run up and grab her while she's putting back her foot.

 

[Just Sexed]

I dont think you wanna be CC vs good samus or else you get the ****.

OoS fair sounds like the safest best option to me. Fair ***** Samus hard.

 

[Niko45]

You wouldn't have to fsmash. When you CC something, you have more options than when you shield something. You could just take the ftilt, then run up and grab her while she's putting back her foot.

This is a good point. Thing is, not taking damage > taking damage, so if your OOS options are as effective as your CC options, use shield.

Personally I like to reserve CCing for "emergencies" or if its a planned CC it needs to be really worthwhile (like CC get up attack -> reverse up B at high % or something).

 

[KirbyKaze]

CCing should not be used only in emergency cases. Trading 12% for control and possibly a stock depending on the matchup is completely worth it.

Obviously it's better to not take damage but the fact that it takes almost no investment to actually CC makes it entirely bonkers.