Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[RestInPeace]

So for FFers, its still Uthrow -> Followups?

Basically... Uthrow all the way?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Varies based on percent and positioning. Uthrow's fairly good, in general.

 

[Mifune]

Hi everyone, I want to start playing with Marth, what are some things that I need to train with him? Thanks for your help!

 

[elvenarrow3000]

The usual. And spacing. Which is usual.

First and foremost, get grabs and edgeguarding down, I would say. Everything else goes in between those two.

 

[Mifune]

When you say grabs, I assume you're talking about chaingrabbing?

 

[I.B]

Chaingrabbing as well. But for the characters he can't chain grab, grabbing is useful because of it's ridiculous range, and giving Marth options for tech-chase/control.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

That, essentially.

 

[datstupidmarth]

got any tipps on marth vs sheik

 

[bolt.]

got any tipps on marth vs sheik

Try reading the stickied matchup guide.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

space your *** off!

if you get a grab, u throw unless you're near enough to the egde that they can't tech away (in that case dthrow, turn dtilt, turn grab if they come into you). Once sheik is in the air she gets juggled pretty badly, so use it.

When edge guarding, if you're below 100% go ahead and roll and tipper fsmash her off (if she is above 50%; below that just stand up and grab, pound her a few times, then throw her back off and repeat). If you're over 100% you're going to have some problems. Either time your roll early so she can't take the edge and then fsmash, or ledge stall for invincibility and ledgehop->waveland past her-> fsmash.

On the stage, you gotta watch out for her grabs and her tilts and her CC. Most sheiks I come across are ground based, so I use a lot of nair (stops approaching grabs and CC) and dtilt (beats everything on the ground). If she goes in the air with something, just space yourself back a bit (she can't travel through the air well) and punish with a fsmash or fair (depending on how greedy you are feeling).

i'm off to class, if you have other questions post them and i'll check later.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Also, I'd consider picking up Fox. No joke, it's just good to have other characters.

One other thing you can do is when you've grabbed Sheik and your back's to the ledge, try bthrow instead sometimes. If they DI away to avoid the dthrow to fsmash, then they'll DI into the bthrow to fsmash. This only works at like... higher than a hundred percent, and you're obviously going to have to make it unpredictable, but, yeah.

Oh and watch out for needles. Seriously, they are all that is suck.

 

[KAOSTAR]

got any tipps on marth vs sheik

just pick someone else.

 

[Niko45]

You should CC a lot vs sheik look for CC grab to stop jabs or tilts. Once you get grabs you need to tech chase or up throw and try to predict (if they jump out chase with fair or up air, if they don't, up tilt). Be careful recovering as bair pretty much destroys you. Try to recover from low and a significant distance so that she can't bair you but you can also just make it to the stage with ur DJ and up B and always prepare to ledge tech.

 

[JBM falcon08]

Wow.

Every marth that says switch to another char is a big wuss who's scared to represent marth.

Just main fox forever, i'll be here to **** those sheiks.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

There's nothing wrong with switching characters. You're going to have to, anyway, if people take you to non-neutrals. Fox covers those well, as well as the Sheik and Falcon match-ups. So why not?

 

[datstupidmarth]

thanks for the advice and i already side fox i just wanted to do better with my marth

 

[JBM falcon08]

No you don't. Not with the new ruleset.

The only stage you might have to switch on is brinstar.

Why do people assume because marth players don't cp those levels that they are bad on them? Marth is good on rainbow btw.

 

[Niko45]

Wow.

Every marth that says switch to another char is a big wuss who's scared to represent marth.

Just main fox forever, i'll be here to **** those sheiks.

Agreed 100%. Sheik vs Marth being so difficult is really overblown. Marth can outspace sheik and you can always outplay your opponent. Non-neutrals, at least the ones that really **** marth, are also in the process of being removed from standard play.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

It's not that it's overblown, it's just... why would you force yourself to play at a disadvantage? That's just silly.

Yeah, you can outplay your opponent, but what if you can't?

 

[The Irish Mafia]

so, something I was practicing the other day:
I was playing MattDotZeb's Jigglypuff, and I dthrew, and regrabbed. Turns out you can CG jiggs with 3 of your throws. If you guess their DI correctly, you can CG jiggs for a pretty long time. Can you confirm any of this cactus?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Taj does that.

 

[Niko45]

I'd elaborate that in my opinion matchups in general are overblown. Players skill decides who wins and if you can't outplay your opponent then you are not better and should/will lose anyway.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yea most matchups that are seen as "hard" or "impossible" by certain people (no names) is really just the case of them not understanding the match-up.

Not saying every match-up is easy, but if you know the match-up you won't lose to the stupid gay **** (unless you mess up)

 

[Niko45]

Plain and simple, it's just that Marth's mistakes are more costly than Sheik's mistakes. So don't make mistakes.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Everyone makes mistakes.

Come on, you can't seriously be arguing this. A disadvantage is a disadvantage, no matter how you look at it. Yes, you can play better, but so can your opponent, and if they're equal or even just slightly worse than you, you lose because of character disadvantage.

I don't see why you wouldn't do everything to give yourself the advantage.

 

[Heart Break Kid]

I'd elaborate that in my opinion matchups in general are overblown. Players skill decides who wins and if you can't outplay your opponent then you are not better and should/will lose anyway.

Id have to disagree. Anytime I play Reno in tournament with Marth Ive always lost. I mightve won once, but hes beaten me at least 4 or 5 times...and no offence to him but I defnintly dnt find him as a better player than me because I beat the people he beats and I outplce him alot.

On the other hand hes never beaten my Fox in a set, and I consider my Marth better than my fox by quite a bit. As elven said there's no point in putting yourself in a disadvantage, especially if you can avoid it.

Marth still sucks on CP's

 

[Niko45]

This coming from the guy who chose Marth and nearly beat Tope recently. Sounds like it could be a you vs Reno thing, not a you vs sheiks in general thing. But I'll concede. I believe you.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If your fox knows how to beat sheiks better than your marth knows how to beat sheiks, then isn't it the same as saying you play the match-up better with fox than with marth?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

That would be due partially to Fox having a better match up overall.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

but you would have to know the match-up at a certain level where your fox didn't make the mistakes sheik would punish and would simultaneously be punishing sheik's mistakes correctly. Unless the sheik was bad and didn't know how to play vs fox and made lots of mistakes and didn't punish you, that is.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Essentially, you win if you get punished less than you punish your opponent. It's relative, it doesn't mean you don't make mistakes at all.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

marth vs puff is the new marth vs sheik

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Essentially, you win if you get punished less than you punish your opponent. It's relative, it doesn't mean you don't make mistakes at all.

if you don't know what you're going to be punished for, you're about 15 levels below the metagame, on a 10 level scale. If you don't know why you're winning or losing, you're not even playing this game.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I understand that. What I'm saying is that it's not that you have to play a flawless Fox to beat Sheik. Fox has more margin of error to win against Sheik than Marth does. That's all.

 

[JBM falcon08]

Sheik vs marth is in sheik's favor yes.

As a marth main don't you have any honor though? Winning over a sheik that made me cp a character isn't a win in my book. It just means I had to pick a better character to beat his better character.

I think people are too concerned on cps. If a sheik grabs a fox, A GOOD ONE, he is more than likely going to get tech chased grabbed to eventual punishment/edgeguard. Or say he messes up, fox takes advantage of it and takes her stock.

Counterpicks are all based on how hard Character A punishes Character B. Realistically sheik should beat marth but it doesn't always happen that way.

HBK vs Reno: I'm going to assume you both play consistently. Reno plays the better char and probably knows how to adapt to your playstyles. This doesn't mean Reno is a better player than you it just means he knows you better and because his char has an edge he takes advantage of it and beats you.

I used to be afraid of sheik and would play fox to avoid it, but I don't feel like i can punish as well with fox as i do with marth so i avoid it completely.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

As a marth main don't you have any honor though? Winning over a sheik that made me cp a character isn't a win in my book. It just means I had to pick a better character to beat his better character.

I worry about winning first, then I worry about honor. If I can win as Marth, sure, I'll do it, but if I can't, hell yes I'm going to pick Fox.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

I worry about winning first, then I worry about honor. If I can win as Marth, sure, I'll do it, but if I can't, hell yes I'm going to pick Fox.

Exactly. A win is a win. Sheik Fox is a pretty even matchup anyway and a good indicator of individual skill.

 

[TresChikon]

I'd throw honor to the wind any day if it's a 50$ MM on the line.

 

[Niko45]

Yea but Elven don't say "pick up fox" as a response to help fighting sheik lol.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

<_< It's an option.