Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[MookieRah]

You'll be way more than just -2. Being frame perfect in Melee all the time is out of the question which is why yes it's good to know about it but don't expect to have perfect execution every time which goes back to Nair being a weak option.

Well for one, frame perfection goes both ways, and usually the person that it benefits the most is the one on the offense, because if one is exploiting a frame trap (albeit an imperfect one) there is no need to react to anything and can simply continue the routine. There is a reason why in boxing and martial arts it's rarely advisable to only counter, typically you are better off taking the initiative and forcing them to react to you and play your game.

That said, this is obviously something that an ideal fox would be able to counter if you did it. Nobody in this thread is dismissing that. This is also something that would work given the proper situation, so it would behoove someone to go through the effort of learning it and perfecting it.

So, moving from that, I advocate to also use this technique as a brick wall against lesser players. Because of the fact that we are humans and mental fatigue is an issue at tournaments. I think this would stop A LOT of players in a tournament before they really found the best way to deal with it, and it would take very little thought for the Marth to initiate the strategy. Again the point I'm trying to make here is obviously not about perfect Marth play, but merely a way to keep your mind fresh against people you need the most focus for.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I'm far too lazy to go in-depth on this for the 6 people that even read this **** but

Its specifically about shield pressure and why and when you ought to hit a shield as Marth. The "patient" and "reactive" bull**** thats constantly peddled ought to be a part of Marth's grander suite of pressure, and relying on it solely should be discouraged. Specifically because there are so many OOS options which you cannot react to (with a punish), notably WD back and jump. And if you try (as PP frequently did), there will be a flip in positioning.

Simply doing nothing and taking your meager stage position is suboptimal, and what mixing in hits on shields discourages. Ex: during late fair you are basically telling the opponent "hey during these next ~30+ frames you can't do **** but sit in your shield, and when I land, you're going to have to worry about a follow-up attack." Sure, should you do nothing, they can still WD back or jump, but there is at least a threat, and you can gain more positioning (and in the case of jump, often a clean hit) since you don't have to space so far away as you would for a dashdance.

I agree with Umbreon. You shouldn't shield pressure like a Falco. You should shield pressure like a Marth. And thats a beautiful thing.

 

[Bones0]

I don't understand how a followup attack after a late fair is a greater threat than that same attack simply being used on its own. If you are doing something like late fair and then dtilting for a shield poke or to catch them trying to WD OoS, then it seems just as effective as straight up dtilting when you think they will get shield poked or WD OoS. Late fair doesn't give you any sort of frame advantage, so your position after the late fair is strictly the same as it was before the late fair, except you risked them doing any number of things like shield DIing away, rolling/WDing away before you get your fair out, or even attacking OoS to beat/trade with fair. The only thing you would really gain is reducing their shield size which is irrelevant for most characters and situations, and an opportunity to tomahawk mixup. If the best thing about late fair shield pressure is a tomahawk mixup, then why not just grab in the first place? I guess there is a possibility of actually hitting them with the fair if they expect the tomahawk too late to roll/WD away early but still want to move, but it's a pretty rare situation and even then you have to deal with ASDI down on the fair or simple DI away, both of which are extremely common since people are rolling and WDing away from you already.

As an alternative to this messy situation, you could just emulate shield pressure with dtilt or raw waiting instead of aerials. Nair definitely seems like a better option for shield pressure than fair since the two hits allow you to keep them in shield as soon as you leave the ground until you land and you get better followups if it hits (imo). It still suffers from the problem that if they don't get hit by the nair, you have no frame advantage and the situation you are in after landing is the same as before you landed (albeit, not a bad situation since they are sitting there shielding). If you have some intuition or pattern recognition that leaves you reason to believe they are about to jump OoS, then the occasional AC nair seems okay, but other than that Marth seems better off not trying to aerial peoples' shields. I think it's funny that people are saying not to compare Marth's aerial shield pressure to spacies because I think it's actually quite similar. Marth can't shine when he lands, but he doesn't have to worry about shield grabs anyway. I think Marth's extended shield pressure is bad, the same way it's bad with spacies.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Its specifically about shield pressure and why and when you ought to hit a shield as Marth. The "patient" and "reactive" bull**** thats constantly peddled ought to be a part of Marth's grander suite of pressure, and relying on it solely should be discouraged. Specifically because there are so many OOS options which you cannot react to (with a punish), notably WD back and jump. And if you try (as PP frequently did), there will be a flip in positioning.

Simply doing nothing and taking your meager stage position is suboptimal, and what mixing in hits on shields discourages. Ex: during late fair you are basically telling the opponent "hey during these next ~30+ frames you can't do **** but sit in your shield, and when I land, you're going to have to worry about a follow-up attack." Sure, should you do nothing, they can still WD back or jump, but there is at least a threat, and you can gain more positioning (and in the case of jump, often a clean hit) since you don't have to space so far away as you would for a dashdance.

I'd still think simply waiting for someone to get out of shield with some action is still the preferred method. Either the shield breaks eventually and you get free rain. Or they have to get out some how. Many options of escape are covered as Marth and whatever options are taking to avoid being punished simply resets your situation with each other. The couple examples you mentioned are the without being punished eventually.

Jumping as an option can lead to being punished since being in the air against Marth is not the greatest thing to happen. Even then moving backwards constantly loses you stage to work with and you no longer have that option to keep doing it unless you get on the ledge. With that idea in mind Marth either breaks even or wins for waiting against someone in shield. Doesn't seem very sub-optimal strategy to me when hitting shield or going for an attack on shield carries the risk of being countered by something you cannot control.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Lol armada set.

Can't watch videos ill get to that response to me later,

But I may need to rewrite or repost what I wrote a long time ago about Marth shield pressure.

It's been agreed by everyone including TCB that taking position/making them fear your sword without swinging frequently is best. This statement allows some wiggle room as to how much swinging is actually okay so discussion is fine about that but if you get the fundamental idea that Marth can't spam tech skill or DD a ton or GO FAST(usually)to pressure then you have the right idea.

I approve of the way discussion played out here btw. Pretty matte and focused on the right stuff. Love Marth boards

 

[Divinokage]

I'd still think simply waiting for someone to get out of shield with some action is still the preferred method. Either the shield breaks eventually and you get free rain. Or they have to get out some how. Many options of escape are covered as Marth and whatever options are taking to avoid being punished simply resets your situation with each other. The couple examples you mentioned are the without being punished eventually.

Jumping as an option can lead to being punished since being in the air against Marth is not the greatest thing to happen. Even then moving backwards constantly loses you stage to work with and you no longer have that option to keep doing it unless you get on the ledge. With that idea in mind Marth either breaks even or wins for waiting against someone in shield. Doesn't seem very sub-optimal strategy to me when hitting shield or going for an attack on shield carries the risk of being countered by something you cannot control.

There's not many moves that are advantageous on shield. Perfect knee is +1 on shield I think which allows you to pressure into jabs or grab if they ever want to input an action right after the blocked attack.

You know in Melee a lot of the times you don't even need to do anything on shield because the player shielding will HAVE to move at some point. Because,

1. He's not actually actively doing something, unless he's on the platform then some mixups could occur like shield drop or light shield drop to edgeguard or aerial. The only exceptions are characters that actually can do something OOS. (Something I'm used to not having hehe.)

2. The shield drains away slowly, why would anyone want to stay so long in shield in the first place? They will have to move!!

So i think the only way shielding is actually useful is if you are able to force a bad spacing for example running up and shielding while the opponent is doing a late aerial on you which will allow an easy shield grab to setup. There's also all that stuff about Shield DI but again that doesn't actually give anything for the attacker, it's for the defender to escape stuff or perhaps to trap a bad spacing again.

So ya.. I hope this does shed some light on what you can actually do. The reason why anyone would call it shield pressure is because you are simply hitting the shield but the actual reason is because the opponent will need to do something eventually.. in that case you have to read the opponent's habits, is he gonna roll? jump? attack? WD? You know?

And that's also why you have to try to play by the character's strength and not put yourself in situations where you are forced to play a guessing game for you and the opponent. Like if Marth is going for grabs then the opponent will likely jump more often, that's when you cut corners then the opponent will feel like being more grounded, that's where you stay patient and wait for the proper opportunity. There's always critical moments you have to avoid, you have to do your best not to give anything away which is why it's important to work on Marth's fundamentals and not go for sub-optimal options especially with this guy. He can die so easily so you have to be extra precise, there's no room for small errors. When a character is point blank vs Marth, he's ****ed. lol.

 

[knightpraetor]

man people, get a life..go play melee instead of just talking about it all day..it's the weekend..if it were a workday i would understand...but i guess maybe you guys are working saturdays

 

[Divinokage]

man people, get a life..go play melee instead of just talking about it all day..it's the weekend..if it were a workday i would understand...but i guess maybe you guys are working saturdays

Well yes I am working as a matter of a fact. But some people need some perspective to break some plateaus or misconceptions, how the hell would you conceive something inconceivable for you right now?

 

[Bones0]

man people, get a life..go play melee instead of just talking about it all day..it's the weekend..if it were a workday i would understand...but i guess maybe you guys are working saturdays

Come play me and DJ.

 

[Sacredtwin11]

So I just left from a Michigan tourney today, which I got 25th. It was a weird tourney, it being triple elimination. Anyways, I lose the first 2 times to kels and juggleguy, which I really have a chance of beating. The 3rd loss was to a doc main, and I'm salty about that loss. Tips on doc? It was recorded but the guy hasn't uploaded it yet since it happened today so yea.

 

[CyberZixx]

Cafeful recovering vs doc because of cape. Learning to the max distance of your up b is a must so you don't allow yourself to be caped. You can swipe away pills with ease so you can control the ground. Be wary of Jab/ grab mix up. Keep him at reach and doc got no way to interact with you. Upthrow works wonders on doc so whenever you land a grab do that one into juggle.

 

[Sacredtwin11]

Cafeful recovering vs doc because of cape. Learning to the max distance of your up b is a must so you don't allow yourself to be caped. You can swipe away pills with ease so you can control the ground. Be wary of Jab/ grab mix up. Keep him at reach and doc got no way to interact with you. Upthrow works wonders on doc so whenever you land a grab do that one into juggle.

I did uthrow him a bunch at the start, but I'm bad at juggling, so I either overcommitted with jumping or I missed the utilt on him coming down, so I started fthrowing more which was probably bad. How are you supposed to DI doc's combos? Because I feel like you shouldn't DI uair down and away cause that just leads to another and another, but it's hard to switch after DI'ing his throw and other stuff.

 

[CyberZixx]

I did uthrow him a bunch at the start, but I'm bad at juggling, so I either overcommitted with jumping or I missed the utilt on him coming down, so I started fthrowing more which was probably bad. How are you supposed to DI doc's combos? Because I feel like you shouldn't DI uair down and away cause that just leads to another and another, but it's hard to switch after DI'ing his throw and other stuff.

I frankly don't have a lot of experience di'ing his combos so i'm not the best person to give advice on this. Combo DI is something I need to work on in general. I auto do it too much without putting thought into it. I'd actually like advise on how to di this stuff as well.

 

[Sacredtwin11]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t93w5bOGceo
Video for reference on the doc match. Critique welcome and wanted.

 

[V]

I don't mean to detract from the current conversation but I have a question I'd like to get several responses from. I've been playing for a couple years so I'm not a total noob at this game but I haven't put in the effort to get further than where I'm at. I'm deciding on which characters to play since there's a few I really like and I'd like to know if anybody else went through this same predicament with Marth. I'm debating between Marth, Sheik, and Fox. I love Marth but there's things about him I hate as well. It seems like he just doesn't have any consistent bread and butter combos like Fox and Sheik do and it gives me the impression that he's difficult to play at your peak potential consistently with. I love his play style and spacial perception is definitely my strongest trait in this game. I also really enjoy his potential for original and creative play. Having said that, I still enjoy the other two a lot and I like that they have bread and butter combos to fall back on. It also seems like I could get further with them much quicker than with Marth. My goal is just to be a competent mid level player, I have neither the time nor desire to try to be the next M2K, but I want to enjoy this game with the least amount of time invested into practicing. So what would you guys say is my best option?

A. Main Marth only
B. Main Marth + either of the other two
C. Play all 3
D. Marth takes too much effort so forget him
E. Something I haven't considered yet

Thanks in advance!

 

[MookieRah]

I need someone else to verify this cause I honestly don't believe it myself. Also I'm afraid of sounding foolish/ignorant.


Guys, I think we've been "shield dropping" wrong this whole time. It doesn't require any obscure angles on the control stick, it's merely a slight flicker down, not enough to activate a sidestep (almost identical to performing the flicker pivot). I'm using PAL, but I doubt that would affect anything.

I think the idea that it requires the angle came about because it seems to only read the downwards input. It's much easier to hit that slight amount downwards when you are making a quarter circle down motion. After about 10 minutes of practice I can shield drop at about 90% of the time.

 

[Kadano]

I need someone else to verify this cause I honestly don't believe it myself. Also I'm afraid of sounding foolish/ignorant.


Guys, I think we've been "shield dropping" wrong this whole time. It doesn't require any obscure angles on the control stick, it's merely a slight flicker down, not enough to activate a sidestep (almost identical to performing the flicker pivot). I'm using PAL, but I doubt that would affect anything.

I think the idea that it requires the angle came about because it seems to only read the downwards input. It's much easier to hit that slight amount downwards when you are making a quarter circle down motion. After about 10 minutes of practice I can shield drop at about 90% of the time.

I wrote a post about this a few weeks ago:

To cause a shield drop, you must input values of 72<x<184 Λ 72<y<76¹. Also, Δy must be above a certain threshold (don’t know the exact value yet).
Here are your options after waiting with a neutral (128,128) shield:

Every pixel represents a value of the control stick resolution. These should be correct.
By slowly angling your shield to the side you effectively move the roll and spot dodge areas away, but the shield drop area hardly becomes larger (the x thresholds increase a bit, so after holding 175,128 for ~10 frames you can shield drop with 186,75 which would have caused a roll immediately after shielding / holding 175,128 for only 1-3 frames or so. The y values always stay at 73-75!).


¹For those unfamiliar with this: the Gamecube accepts X and Y values from 1-255. These values are read by the potentiometers the control stick’s switch box is attached to (I refer to the box as potentiometer in the guide, might have to change that—unfortunately I’m unfamiliar with electronic parts nomenclature). The switch box itself (see Technical knowledge compilation for further infos about that) physically limits these values to a range of approximately 10-249. These vary between types and individual boxes. The octagon around the control stick further cuts down this range to approx. 25-225. I don’t think this takes away options at all as in most situations (maybe all?) only the angle and certain thresholds are important.
So, for a typical controller 25,128 is straight left, 128,225 is straight up, 225,128 is straight right and 128,25 is straight down. As 128,128 is neutral, the range you can shield drop by doing a 1 frame motion is 3 (73, 74, 75) out of 108 (128, … , 225) if you look at the entire downward range of the control stick. So this method would be the fastest, but moving your thumb so quickly to a certain point is impossible to do consistently.

 

[MookieRah]

Blah. Well now I understand the picture better. Still, shield dropping is A LOT easier to do than Shai thought back in the day and nobody really has an excuse not to learn how to do it.

 

[Sacredtwin11]

I don't mean to detract from the current conversation but I have a question I'd like to get several responses from. I've been playing for a couple years so I'm not a total noob at this game but I haven't put in the effort to get further than where I'm at. I'm deciding on which characters to play since there's a few I really like and I'd like to know if anybody else went through this same predicament with Marth. I'm debating between Marth, Sheik, and Fox. I love Marth but there's things about him I hate as well. It seems like he just doesn't have any consistent bread and butter combos like Fox and Sheik do and it gives me the impression that he's difficult to play at your peak potential consistently with. I love his play style and spacial perception is definitely my strongest trait in this game. I also really enjoy his potential for original and creative play. Having said that, I still enjoy the other two a lot and I like that they have bread and butter combos to fall back on. It also seems like I could get further with them much quicker than with Marth. My goal is just to be a competent mid level player, I have neither the time nor desire to try to be the next M2K, but I want to enjoy this game with the least amount of time invested into practicing. So what would you guys say is my best option?

A. Main Marth only
B. Main Marth + either of the other two
C. Play all 3
D. Marth takes too much effort so forget him
E. Something I haven't considered yet

Thanks in advance!

Shiek is probably the easiest to play of the 3.

No critique from anyone on my video.

 

[knightpraetor]

Come play me and DJ.

sorry was at otakon

 

[Bones0]

Blah. Well now I understand the picture better. Still, shield dropping is A LOT easier to do than Shai thought back in the day and nobody really has an excuse not to learn how to do it.

Shai's thread is about shai dropping, not shield dropping. And Shai did say you could use down sometimes, but there are certain instances where inputting SE or SW is the only way to shield drop asap because a down input would register as a spot dodge. Normally SE and SW register a roll, but since you're dashing the game doesn't let you and it will shield drop instead.

 

[MookieRah]

In any case, there are a ton of ways to shield drop, and it's not very difficult to do. Starting out you shouldn't so much worry about frame perfection as much as being able to "do" the technique consistently and relatively fast. Doing a quarter circle down makes it super easy. Again, no excuse not to learn it if one can pick it up in such a short amount of time.

 

[Niko45]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t93w5bOGceo
Video for reference on the doc match. Critique welcome and wanted.

Slow it down vs doc. Stand and face him and move when he moves. If he comes in, WD back. You're moving around excessively and by doing so you are forfeiting your range advantage. At close range doc will generally beat you with a better cc game, jab game, etc. You have to keep him at the range you want and the best way to do this is by not committing to movement options prematurely that stops your ability to keep him out properly.

After you get that down, offensively you just want to get him in the air. Air to air is where you tear him apart.

 

[clowsui]

Shield dropping from neutral is easy. Shield dropping from shieldstun is another matter entirely lol

 

[Sacredtwin11]

Slow it down vs doc. Stand and face him and move when he moves. If he comes in, WD back. You're moving around excessively and by doing so you are forfeiting your range advantage. At close range doc will generally beat you with a better cc game, jab game, etc. You have to keep him at the range you want and the best way to do this is by not committing to movement options prematurely that stops your ability to keep him out properly.

After you get that down, offensively you just want to get him in the air. Air to air is where you tear him apart.

Thanks. I played like 4 sets with falcons at this tourney and had no idea what to do against a doc so I just went with moving around a lot.

 

[MookieRah]

First Match:
Don't approach with aerials and don't attack a shielded opponent with aerials either (at the very least only do that with a tipped aerial). You did a decent job at that, but it seems you wanted a fair too much at 1:12 and it costed you almost 30%.

Learn to respond off throws by reaction and don't attempt to guess what your opponent does and throw something out. On the first match you fthrow and go straight into fairs (you should have upthrown anyways), later you upthrow and immediately uptilt, and once again you up throw and do a full hopped bair. All of those could have had a followup if you patiently observed your opponent instead of committing to something off a guess.

On your last stock the Doc had already won. If you look at how he is playing compared to how he was in the beginning it really shows. He no longer respected your reach, and you were too frazzled to capitalize on it. You were playing into his game, and you didn't regain control of the match.

Second Match:
Going into this match the Doc acted like he was still in control but you played quite well and on point for a while. Your first mistake was tossing that uair out when he was on the top platform. By the time you did that the Doc hadn't shown any signs of moving, but he reacted off that utilt and capitalized on it.

In general one shouldn't use dash attack much, and it hurt you bad at around 5 minutes in : (. That dash attack did two things bad for you, made you incredibly vulnerable when you missed, and gave you the most horrendous DI. If that was a spaced dtilt, you would have been completely safe. Hell a run in grab might have worked there since he was in shield.

Nair, as a method of threatening space, only works when you are properly spaced in such a way that you can't be punished, but would make it difficult for your opponent to approach you. Nairs are also good to end combos, at 5:18 and 7:02 those would have been better nairs than a fairs as that would have led to edge guarding situations. You toss out a lot of nairs early in the second match that were either poorly spaced, or were intended to intercept (in which case if you used a fair you would have been fine).

You really could have had those matches easy with just a few tweaks to your decision making. Don't do things cause you want them to happen, you can't force it. Learn to observe and react, and focus on only committing when you have to.

 

[Sacredtwin11]

First Match:
Don't approach with aerials and don't attack a shielded opponent with aerials either (at the very least only do that with a tipped aerial). You did a decent job at that, but it seems you wanted a fair too much at 1:12 and it costed you almost 30%.

Learn to respond off throws by reaction and don't attempt to guess what your opponent does and throw something out. On the first match you fthrow and go straight into fairs (you should have upthrown anyways), later you upthrow and immediately uptilt, and once again you up throw and do a full hopped bair. All of those could have had a followup if you patiently observed your opponent instead of committing to something off a guess.

On your last stock the Doc had already won. If you look at how he is playing compared to how he was in the beginning it really shows. He no longer respected your reach, and you were too frazzled to capitalize on it. You were playing into his game, and you didn't regain control of the match.

Second Match:
Going into this match the Doc acted like he was still in control but you played quite well and on point for a while. Your first mistake was tossing that uair out when he was on the top platform. By the time you did that the Doc hadn't shown any signs of moving, but he reacted off that utilt and capitalized on it.

In general one shouldn't use dash attack much, and it hurt you bad at around 5 minutes in : (. That dash attack did two things bad for you, made you incredibly vulnerable when you missed, and gave you the most horrendous DI. If that was a spaced dtilt, you would have been completely safe. Hell a run in grab might have worked there since he was in shield.

Nair, as a method of threatening space, only works when you are properly spaced in such a way that you can't be punished, but would make it difficult for your opponent to approach you. Nairs are also good to end combos, at 5:18 and 7:02 those would have been better nairs than a fairs as that would have led to edge guarding situations. You toss out a lot of nairs early in the second match that were either poorly spaced, or were intended to intercept (in which case if you used a fair you would have been fine).

You really could have had those matches easy with just a few tweaks to your decision making. Don't do things cause you want them to happen, you can't force it. Learn to observe and react, and focus on only committing when you have to.

Thanks for the in-depth advice. Second game I did start getting sorta nervous(2nd tourney johns) and being clueless. Does anyone know how to DI docs combo's? Cause I feel like he still gets stuff on down and away DI.

 

[Purpletuce]

Mookie, shield dropping isn't had to do in practice, but it gets harder in gameplay. Try doing in in a match. I bet you won't be at 90%.

Also, IMO, rotating or going straight down are about equally easy.

 

[Engo]

I don't mean to detract from the current conversation but I have a question I'd like to get several responses from. I've been playing for a couple years so I'm not a total noob at this game but I haven't put in the effort to get further than where I'm at. I'm deciding on which characters to play since there's a few I really like and I'd like to know if anybody else went through this same predicament with Marth. I'm debating between Marth, Sheik, and Fox. I love Marth but there's things about him I hate as well. It seems like he just doesn't have any consistent bread and butter combos like Fox and Sheik do and it gives me the impression that he's difficult to play at your peak potential consistently with. I love his play style and spacial perception is definitely my strongest trait in this game. I also really enjoy his potential for original and creative play. Having said that, I still enjoy the other two a lot and I like that they have bread and butter combos to fall back on. It also seems like I could get further with them much quicker than with Marth. My goal is just to be a competent mid level player, I have neither the time nor desire to try to be the next M2K, but I want to enjoy this game with the least amount of time invested into practicing. So what would you guys say is my best option?

A. Main Marth only
B. Main Marth + either of the other two
C. Play all 3
D. Marth takes too much effort so forget him
E. Something I haven't considered yet

Thanks in advance!

Play Sheik or Jiggs. Most characters in this game require a lot of practice to get to even mid level with. There's not much way around it, that's just what you need to do to play competitively.

 

[Divinokage]

Play Sheik or Jiggs. Most characters in this game require a lot of practice to get to even mid level with. There's not much way around it, that's just what you need to do to play competitively.

Hmm.. your first statement isn't consistent with what you say after. If you want to get competitive, you have to put A LOT of time into it, period. It doesn't really matter what character you choose but you should choose a character you like to play in the first place. I think you were implying playing Sheik or Jiggs is easier.

I'd simply recommend playing Marth for a while mainly but also sometimes play your secondaries as well to give you a fresher perspective as to what to do and how you can do it differently. Every character requires a certain type of mindset I believe to begin with and then once you get good enough you can get really creative.

 

[V]

I decided to co-main marth and sheik and keep a pocket fox for puff and anybody else I might want it for. Unless at some point I feel comfortable with marth vs puff but it seems like a lot of people have a pocket fox for puff.

p.s. thanks for the feedback

 

[Purpletuce]

Three characters? Don't spread yourself thin. Pocket fox for puff sounds like more work than it is worth. Although Fox destroys puff, most puff players are so grotesquely familiar with it, that'll they'll dismantle most undeveloped foxes. If you're playing a puff who is on your level, they will probably have no problem beating your fox tertiary. Stick with Marth for Puff, and focus on improving.

Three characters. . . people overestimate how important MUs are.

 

[V]

Fox's ability to consistently kill puff makes it tempting though. Sometimes it's very frustrating not killing people until 160%+ with marth.

 

[Kadano]

Fox's ability to consistently kill puff makes it tempting though. Sometimes it's very frustrating not killing people until 160%+ with marth.

Luckily, Puff is one of the few characters Marth can kill reliably from a grab.

 

[Whatislove]

Hey guys, I'm having a hard time fighting peach. When I get her in the air I can combo her like no tomorrow, but I have issues when shes on the ground. Does anyone have any tips to help deal with her?

 

[MookieRah]

Here you go:


Against Peach
On turnips:
I think it's better to let her pull turnips.
-You can nair through them, and if you use Z, you can catch and drop turnips and THEN nair. If you mess up the timing, you still nair through the turnip.
-When she has a turnip, she doesn't have a dash attack or a grab. She also might try to jump at you more for aerial turnip to float cancel fair, which you'll nair straight through and juggle.
- i think you said it yourself. shield is not the proper response to turnips (unless you have a lot of stage to play with then shield instant queue roll back is ok). nair through turnips. retreating sh fair turnips...FH fair turnips to various spacings but be careful of peach getting under. Most important thing. Don't always do the same thing. Peach can vary what she does to hit your response to the turnips..when you do get through, make it count
- Weaving in and out of dash attack range still denies turnip pulling with solid reactions iirc.
- Dtilt is good when approaching/zoning her and also when she pulls a turnip.

You don't have to move forward when you Dtilt since Peach can't really beat the move without massive foresight lol. I just usually do it when I dtilt because I'm more or less confident she won't attack/dodge well enough if I do use it.
-You can occassionally hit her right as she's pulling a turnip.
-Peach slows down tremendously when she pulls turnips. Won't see them doing crazy dash dancing or anything when they pull 'em.
- Keep in mind this is theory bros once again someone playing at a perfect game this is how it should end up for the Marth.

Peach example:

Dash dance just out of dash attack range, if she tries to pull a turnip run up grab/ run in dtilt. Most peach mains know good marth's will do this so they have to give up a little stage space in order to try and bait the marth, however if the marth player is patient he'll just wait for her to either dash attack early or try to pull a turnip. A LOT of players will cumble under the pressure and jump and float. From that position you have the advantage, get close to her but not so close that she can fall down and fair you. From that position you can get close to her and then full jump fair or run under her and sh uair. It's a bad position for peach because eventually she'll run out of float AND she cant change direction with her float very well at all.
- Approaching Peach air to air is okay as a mixup and generally serves to make her not come into you as hard later because she respects your options(unless he starts/started rambo'ing me which was funny) and then you just wreck em on the ground. If you can't hit a Peach out of the way you are either misjudging your character, not conditioning your opponent well, or they simply don't want to actually zone close to you(they should lose to you taking free stage in this last case.)
- PP your recovery against peach is so smart, in always afraid of getting hyper dsmashed, what do?
If Peach could Dsmash then don't swing moving into her when she's on the ground. If she's in the air then counter vs Fair tricks vs shield breaker vs regular getups.
- Yeah I like hitting turnip-holding Peach. Only thing she can do assuming I'm playing decently is turnip OOS and lol if I can't beat that then I deserve to lose.
- Very good for you: Final Destination (let's you abuse her horrible landings to the fullest, uthrow leaves her a super bad position because there are no platforms to help her out), Yoshi's Story (sword covers everywhere, tipper kills super early)

Good/Decent: Pokemon Stadium (Marth covers side plats really well, so uthrowing her still puts her in an awful position; the stage gives you decent kill power too, but the transformations can be troublesome for Marth)

Even/Ok: Battlefield is....good. You cover a lot with your sword, but platforms help her some when you get her above you...Not much to say

Bad for you: Dreamland (Obvious lack of coverage, lack of kill power completely, platforms here are safer for her than on any other stage)

I honestly don't know about FoD. Sword covers a lot of room, but Peach likes this stage in general....someone else will have ideas on it, I'm sure.
- for peach, you should ban DL64 and CP her to FD or PS. I would take FD first unless the peach has a particularly good turnip game, in which case PS might be better.

i mean basically she's going to ban one against you anyway so just take the other.

edit: absolutely do not take her to BF. it's easily her second best stage in this MU.
- Yoshis
Stadium
FD
FoD
Battlefield
Dreamland

Somethin like that. I strike DL and BF usually.

Stadium v FD is a really tough choice though. Stadium is slightly better stage v stage, but the risk of a stitch/bomb is really annoying. Killing with uairs and utilts at reasonable percentages is pretty ****ing baller tho.

BF sucks cause the platform heights are booty.
-
You approach Peach if you think she's gonna stay grounded and not really try to counterattack you at all. Then you can do whatever you want. I like poking with Dtilt for all parts of this strategy.

Turnips eh I don't have a perfect answer to them yet. If you kinda rush Peach she can usually get away and snipe you but if you hang back she gets a free approach. Just know if you stay on top of her you can get grabs and shield stabs when Peach is shielding and shouldn't be far away when she pulls. If you got hit first then just try to stand your ground and make Peach throw from far away/the wrong direction so you can dodge.

Uthrow, Dtilt'ing then taking stage, hitting her into the air, Fthrowing and moving to where she lands, those are some good ways to have followups.

I dunno how to DI peach combos but up kinda saves me or at least lets me stall LOL
- General anti-peach: http://smashboards.com/threads/offi...rs-stuff-thread.118998/page-328#post-15623632
- Anti Turnips: http://smashboards.com/threads/offi...rs-stuff-thread.118998/page-329#post-15625091
http://smashboards.com/threads/offi...rs-stuff-thread.118998/page-329#post-15629146

 

[Whatislove]

Wow! Thanks a lot for the advice! I'm still new to marth, so this is super helpful.

 

[MookieRah]

It's not my advice, I'm simply the messenger. I've been compiling this thread for the past couple of weeks and making one big ginormous guide for marth.

 

[Whatislove]

Well I appreciate it. I only picked up marth a week ago, and decided to main him and become competitive. I'll probably go to my first tourney soonish so this really helps.

 

[Bones0]

Luckily, Puff is one of the few characters Marth can kill reliably from a grab.

Fox, Falco, Falcon, Sheik, Doc, Ganon, Luigi and ICs can all kill Puff from grabs quite reliably... I think even most low tiers have a guaranteed grab KO on Puff (Zelda and G&W dthrows?).