Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Beat!]

Unless you just felt like sharing that information, I think you might have misread his post.

 

[Deleted member]

he's making the logic jump that we're comparing marth to alternatives. he's made the assumption that we're talking about the poster's initial concern and that the various replies will follow him.

frankly i don't think you should play marth if it's still a question for you. if you're not certain who you want to play, play someone easier like fox.

 

[Divinokage]

he's making the logic jump that we're comparing marth to alternatives. he's made the assumption that we're talking about the poster's initial concern and that the various replies will follow him.

frankly i don't think you should play marth if it's still a question for you. if you're not certain who you want to play, play someone easier like fox.

Like I said earlier no characters are easy to master. Totally on the player to understand what kind of tools the character has vs every matchup.

 

[V]

I was just curious if anybody else had the same questions at some point. Marth is definitely my main as I've played him since the game came out which was well before I was aware of competitive play or tier lists. I wasn't sure if anybody else had secondaries for uncomfortable match ups or for doubles (imo he isn't fun in teams). It seems like the majority of the community is of the opinion that it's better to learn one character completely than to have different characters for different match ups. I guess players like M2K and Mango are some of the few who can play multiple characters at an equal and high level. With regards to fox I don't crave to play him, I was just considering him since it seems like a fair amount of people pocket him for puff since puff is a boring match up for most people and they just want to get it over with lol. The only other character I crave to play is sheik and I love her in doubles. Besides, marth is a character who's success is dependent on the player's mood and mindset more than any other character, and having a character like sheik with bread and butter combos when marth just isn't working is nice too.

 

[knightpraetor]

i think marth should have a secondary/dual main for falco rather than relying on powershielding gimmicks...

secondary jiggs. use it to cover falco and sheik..though you may find yourself tempted to just main jiggs and pull out marth for fox then.

though to be honest...i came back from not playing smash for 3-4 months to playing regularly again and for some reason every time i play sheiks they seem a lot easier with marth..maybe the matchup isn't as bad as i always thought. maybe the same will happen for falco one day...but the difference is that sheik just has some good moves, falco has a gun. falco has just gotten worse and worse for marth the better i've gotten at this game...

you will spend hours and hours 3-4 stocking bad falcos and just thinking about how if they would stop messing up or trying to break down your shield you wouldn't be wrecking them. then you will switch to falco vs every marth main you ever play and beat them cause unlike the actual falco mains you know what you're doing.

anyway i think secondaries are good for marth, but almost everyone who starts doing that just eventually stops playing marth altogether. There are a lot of marths who taught me stuff years ago and they are all playing fox or falco now

 

[V]

They got tired of trying so hard all the time. M2K already has and it's only a matter of time before PPU does too. Look at Ice as well. He used sheik vs mango at evo when his marth is just about on the same level and the match up is a little easier too, just because marth takes much more mental strength than sheik does. I think marth's worst flaw is that he's so susceptible to mental inconsistency. Characters like fox, falco, and sheik can auto pilot to a certain extent whereas he can't under any circumstances. Falcon, puff, and ICs can't really auto pilot either, but at least they have big punishes/finishers once they get their opening. Marth has to work for every little hit and as lovable as the character is that can get straining to the point where the reward isn't worth the work.

 

[Divinokage]

I dont think he really needs a secondary, players just need to refine their decision making. He doesn't have abyssmal matchups at all, so then why do you really think he needs one?

Hell I play Ganon and I still think there's room for improvement in the top tier matchups meaning I haven't done everything that I can quite yet, Marth player johns are completely ********.

 

[CyberZixx]

I don't think Marth needs a secondary. Sheik is not that bad a match up. Falco is annoy as laser shut Marth's movement down but it is something we have to learn to deal with. Our punish game on Falco is good enough that once we land a grab we should keep momentum and take the stock.

 

[knightpraetor]

lol it's precisely because you play ganon that i can't trust your opinion^_^

as much as I respect you as a player..the fact that you are willing to play ganon makes me wonder how honest you are about character failings

 

[Divinokage]

lol it's precisely because you play ganon that i can't trust your opinion^_^

as much as I respect you as a player..the fact that you are willing to play ganon makes me wonder how honest you are about character failings

Really? You would question that? It's completely the opposite, I know about my weaknesses exactly where they are and it's part of the reason why I'm successful at continuing to improve my play. It's also why I would challenge any Marth any day, it's my best if not 2nd best matchup and I know for a fact many of them make incorrect decisions and flail **** at random.

 

[MT_]

What the hell am I reading right now LOL.

I hope PPU never reads what was written above about him; that has to be the most insulting thing I've ever seen.

 

[G3TL05T]

What is a safer Marth approach against Fox, Falco, Falcon, Puff, Sheik, Peach, and other Marths? Short hop Nair or short hop fair?

 

[Divinokage]

If it's insulting to you then you'll never be making the correct choices.

 

[Deleted member]

Like I said earlier no characters are easy to master. Totally on the player to understand what kind of tools the character has vs every matchup.

if ease of use is relative (it is) fox is as easy as they come.

 

[CyberZixx]

What is a safer Marth approach against Fox, Falco, Falcon, Puff, Sheik, Peach, and other Marths? Short hop Nair or short hop fair?

Nair is a terrible move to approach with. Fair is not bad if you space it well but I would not play make it your go to. I suggest grab. Dtilt is good in neutral too.

 

[V]

What the hell am I reading right now LOL.

I hope PPU never reads what was written above about him; that has to be the most insulting thing I've ever seen.

How is what I said insulting? I said sooner or later he'll get tired of trying so hard with marth and opt for a character that's easier to be consistent with. The fact that I included PPU in the same sentence with M2K is a compliment.

 

[Niko45]

All I ever read in this thread is how bad nair is. And all I ever do is dump on ppl with nair.

 

[MT_]

How is what I said insulting? I said sooner or later he'll get tired of trying so hard with marth and opt for a character that's easier to be consistent with. The fact that I included PPU in the same sentence with M2K is a compliment.

You're straight up calling PPU an inevitable cop out. Some of us have pride as a Marth main, scrubby as that is.

 

[Divinokage]

if ease of use is relative (it is) fox is as easy as they come.

But.. but.. it's fun to hit random foxes #10457. =P

 

[Bones0]

you will spend hours and hours 3-4 stocking bad falcos and just thinking about how if they would stop messing up or trying to break down your shield you wouldn't be wrecking them. then you will switch to falco vs every marth main you ever play and beat them cause unlike the actual falco mains you know what you're doing.

What are, in your mind, Falco's alternatives to trying to break down shields? I'm just curious on a Marth main's perspective of Falco's alternatives. You can PM me if you want.

What is a safer Marth approach against Fox, Falco, Falcon, Puff, Sheik, Peach, and other Marths? Short hop Nair or short hop fair?

You jump around too much (yes, I can tell that just from your question). Keep your nairs defensive and fading back until you get better with the move, and keep your fairs late and tipped if they're on the ground. If they're airborne, fair/nair become much better approaches, but good players will tend to stay grounded vs. Marth because of that.

 

[V]

You're straight up calling PPU an inevitable cop out. Some of us have pride as a Marth main, scrubby as that is.

If he gets to the point where he feels he's good enough to win something big and marth isn't cutting it for him then he'll ask himself the question if pride in the character or winning is more important. The reason mid/low level marth players don't ask themselves this is because they aren't winning anything anyway so their character choice doesn't matter. For players like M2K, Ice, and possibly PPU in the future, they decided they'd rather win than represent this character. Is marth good enough to win? "Theoretically" he may be the best in the game, but so far nobody has overcome his shortcomings and proved that the character can reliably win a national or even major on his own in the current metagame.

 

[G3TL05T]

What are, in your mind, Falco's alternatives to trying to break down shields? I'm just curious on a Marth main's perspective of Falco's alternatives. You can PM me if you want.



You jump around too much (yes, I can tell that just from your question). Keep your nairs defensive and fading back until you get better with the move, and keep your fairs late and tipped if they're on the ground. If they're airborne, fair/nair become much better approaches, but good players will tend to stay grounded vs. Marth because of that.

You're right I guess, I do jump around a lot. Thanks for the advice

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

According to V we should all just play Fox.

I believe in Marth

 

[Divinokage]

According to V we should all just play Fox.

I believe in Marth

I actually HAD to choose Fox for pkm because his Sheik ***** me too hard. I mean sometimes it's always good to have a strong secondary where your chances increases to beat a particular player but these things shouldn't happen very often at all.

 

[V]

According to V we should all just play Fox.

I believe in Marth

Fox isn't the only viable character in this metagame on his own. If a character can break top 8 at a national without a secondary I'd say they're viable. The only character I'll arbitrarily exclude from this is Doc because Shroomed is just a great player and Doc works for him. So imo this would mean that Fox, Falco, Puff, Sheik, Peach, Falcon, and I guess ICs are viable. I'm not doubting that Marth is a viable character, I would just like to see a player consistently place top 8 in large scale tournaments using only Marth, which is something I haven't seen in a long time.

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

I believe without a doubt that both PP and M2k could place top 5 or even win a national if they worked on solo Marth for a long time. Possibly Mango too. PewPewU just has a little bit of work to do (Mew2king CGs). Every player has stuff they could work on.

I don't think the reason behind Marth not winning is because he's not viable in the current meta, there are just no players at the Top 5 level that are solo Marth mains. I do understand your points though as Marth is incredibly taxing mentally

 

[Sacredtwin11]

I believe without a doubt that both PP and M2k could place top 5 or even win a national if they worked on solo Marth for a long time. Possibly Mango too. PewPewU just has a little bit of work to do (Mew2king CGs). Every player has stuff they could work on.

I don't think the reason behind Marth not winning is because he's not viable in the current meta, there are just no players at the Top 5 level that are solo Marth mains. I do understand your points though as Marth is incredibly taxing mentally

Don't sleep on taj either. He 2-0d PPU in the ditto and knocked him out at evo. If only he would go all marth.

 

[V]

I've tried to tell M2K to go solo Marth because he's his natural character and he gets crowd hype with him. He just says Sheik is more consistent every time. Trying to convince M2K to solo Marth is like trying to convince a rock it's a tree branch. It's just not going to happen.

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

Don't sleep on taj either. He 2-0d PPU in the ditto and knocked him out at evo. If only he would go all marth.

I didn't include Taj is because he is retired. I used PewPewU as an example because he is probably the Marth main with the best chance to win a national (and because he was brought up before).

I will rep AZ till I die though. Absolutely not sleeping on Taj.

 

[Sacredtwin11]

I didn't include Taj is because he is retired. I used PewPewU as an example because he is probably the Marth main with the best chance to win a national (and because he was brought up before).

I will rep AZ till I die though. Absolutely not sleeping on Taj.

Wat. Taj is retired? I didn't know that.

 

[V]

I definitely agree that M2K could win a national if he went solo Marth. I actually think his biggest problem right now is that he's dividing his attention among too many characters. If he tightened up his Marth he'd have no reason to bring out Fox vs HBox, he could beat Mango and PP consistently on other stages besides FD, and he'd be more on point vs every character he's relying on Sheik for right now.

We should start a community petition to let him know we all want to see him solo Marth again.

 

[CyberZixx]

I think M2K has a better shot winning a national with solo Shiek than solo Marth.

 

[V]

I think M2K has a better shot winning a national with solo Shiek than solo Marth.

Except his Sheik is in its prime and still falling just short and his Marth is very rusty and still holds its own when he uses it. His reliance on Sheik has caused his skill with Marth to deteriorate to an extent which furthers his own opinion that his Sheik is better, when the reality is that his Marth isn't as good because he opted for it to not be as good. If he recognized this and went back to putting his effort into Marth again he would see considerable improvement to the point where I think he'd stop relying on Sheik.

The biggest issue with his Marth is that it's more susceptible to his negative mentality than his Sheik is. When things aren't going his way his Marth suffers much more than his Sheik because he's losing the mental sharpness required to perform well with Marth. On the other hand, his Marth gets much more crowd hype than his Sheik, which is the most important factor to him retaining a positive mentallity. M2K loses to himself, not other players. He has nothing to lose trying to make it through a tournament with just Marth again because he's barely missing the mark every single time with his current method. If his Marth is a free win on FD with no attention given to him, there's no reason why he can't perfom as well if not better with him on every other stage if he focused solely on him.

 

[Divinokage]

Ill guarantee you he'll never use Marth vs a Falcon or Ganon, it's too risky and a lot of players know that too. If he has a Sheik that can shut down anyone that uses Falcon/Ganon then he should. You have to take into account the opponent's experience in certain matchups, sometimes it just isn't worth the effort. Sometimes it's good to train one character just for one player if you want to advance further into brackets, you have to play with your best chances to win too.. it's not that easy to make decisions.

 

[CyberZixx]

He also does way better vs floaties with Shiek than with Marth. I think M2K is best off ditching Marth all together and refining Shiek than going Marth as he would have a higher step to climb.

 

[V]

He also does way better vs floaties with Shiek than with Marth. I think M2K is best off ditching Marth all together and refining Shiek than going Marth as he would have a higher step to climb.

Do you think that's the best decision for him or every Marth main? Or does it come down to personal preference and player strengths?

Basically you're saying that his Marth has fallen too far behind his Sheik and it would be easier to push his Sheik just a little further than to try to catch up with Marth again.

 

[Xyzz]

Does FD even make that much of a difference?

I usually don't have the impression that it's super special or anything when playing Marth (or against him for that matter). I mean, sure, they might end up on a platform where I could get some cleaner follow ups, but Marth's tech chases are sooo good on those anyways, and few people have awareness to really abuse DI to slide of ledges while getting comboed... so usually they'll just end up on a platform, and I think Marth can follow up every single tech option with an uair, right?

 

[CyberZixx]

I don't think switching characters is best for all Marth mains although there is history of Marth mains switching. Like with m2k, Taj and Ice. I think Shiek fits m2k better than Marth these days. She can gimp super well just like Marth. Is much better at planking/ stalling the edge. She is not as aggressive a character while also being able to dictate the pace of the match down to her level. She can control Spacies with throws like Marth, just with tech chases.

Sheik just seems to fit M2K better and he is more consistent with her and stronger in more match ups.

 

[V]

For M2K, FD matters a lot. His Marth on FD is his strongest CP option and at least 95% of the time I see him do it he gets a convincing win. I guess his Sheik is more solid overall but his Marth is more dominating on that stage than his Sheik is on any other.

Now what about his Fox? Should he ditch Fox vs Puff? He seems to rely on counter picking when it comes to match ups instead of just learning them with one character.

Btw, the history of Marth mains switching is exactly the reason I asked if he's worth playing in the first place, because it seems like no matter how much effort people put into him they end up deciding to play an easier character.

 

[CyberZixx]

M2k played the fox vs puff match up terrible. Same with Marth as Zenith. He may as well try it with Shiek. You Marth is your favorite character to play and you feel you understand the game best through him, stick with Marth and put in the work to excel. Otherwise go with another character that suits you better.