Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Bones0]

What about bthrow? I vaguely recall seeing a Marth use bthrow a decent amount vs. Falcon and getting a lot of good stuff from them. Idk Falcon's weight well enough to tell when he can start jumping out of each throw though.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It's too laggy I'm pretty sure.

I'll test it on Saturday probably/whenever I play a Falcon in friendlies next.

 

[Deleted member]

if you were a real homie you'd play the pokemon drinking game with me.

drinking milk.

see you in the ER lol

edit: we should do the spotpass thing in fire emblem. my guys are ****ing stacked atm. morgan for "blatantly unfair" tier

 

[Bones0]

Did somebody say milk match?

(I can't find the video. )

 

[Deleted member]

Did somebody say milk match?

(I can't find the video. )

here you go bones:

http://static.fjcdn.com/large/pictures/70/80/708015_3708984.jpg

normally this game already just obliterates people with just 4loko or whatever. but with milk you'd drink like 3 gallons and ruin the pH of your stomach and it's ****ing awful lol

 

[Dr Peepee]

dude not milk how about chocolate milk

and lol still haven't finished the game IM IN THERE

 

[Deleted member]

dude i didn't even buy the game yet.

but i have all my shit planned out already.

real niggas start on lunatic lol

 

[Bones0]

here you go bones:

http://static.fjcdn.com/large/pictures/70/80/708015_3708984.jpg

normally this game already just obliterates people with just 4loko or whatever. but with milk you'd drink like 3 gallons and ruin the pH of your stomach and it's ****ing awful lol

No, there was a Melee video where a Young Link tries to run away from a Mewtwo on Hyrule. If he can finish the milk (in his taunt) before Mewtwo interrupts, the Mewtwo player has to drink spoiled milk.

 

[Deleted member]

sounds incredibly easy tbh

mewtwo is unsalvageable garbage

 

[Niko45]

At weird % u can bthrow falcon to put him immediately on to a platform. Often people aren't ready for this and will miss that tech for free tippers and what not.

 

[Frame Perfect]

concerning milk and m2k:



so m2k at da crib and I ask him ‘Do you want anything to drink? Soda, juice, anything? he goes, ‘Do you by chance have milk?. Im like Uhhh well it’s not really my beverage of choice but I’ll look around’ . then he says ‘ Yea I love milk.’ Im like ohh …. k, neat. set out to grab some when he starts going on about how much he loves milk and how good it is for you.

im like ok that was pretty weird but w/e… never heard anyone that enthusiastic about milk LOL

next morning, wake up. M2k missing… look around, he in the kitchen straight chugging a gallon jug of milk. Confused as f*ck, I start shaking my head. he says,’ Sorry I was looking for a cup’ I go ‘What the hell is up with you and milk!? Who are you… young link? He starts bursting out laughing says ‘Wait’ and does the YL taunt IRL. true story, LMFAO m2k is a trip

 

[V]

^^^ that's priceless

 

[knightpraetor]

i bthrow a lot for that reason but i don't actually know the right percents for it on anyone. I just guess the percent range

 

[Sacredtwin11]

dude i didn't even buy the game yet.

but i have all my shit planned out already.

real niggas start on lunatic lol

Lunatic makes me cry. I got past the first 5 or so levels so I can grind dlc if I really wanted. I'm scared to beat it and attempt lunatic+.

 

[GMhyprid]

Would someone mind explaining to me what neutral position is? I have a vague idea of what it is, but I think it would be beneficial to know what it is more exactly. From what I've read and what I've experienced, DD grab is overall superior to SH Fair when neither Marth nor the opposing character have a significant advantage in stage control. However, it feels like Fair is still quite useful sometimes. Is it because Fair has some uses in neutral that DD grab can't cover easily or is it because Fair is useful when a character is no longer in neutral position?

Two other questions I have:

- I have heard that dtilt is one of the best options in neutral, but I have trouble finding a way to use it. Usually I'm trying to make my opponent feel pressured that I might DD grab them at any moment, so I can't think of a good set up for dtilt. Some ways I can think of are WD back and a SH, but WD back gives up my threat of DD grab and I'm not sure I want to be SHing very much in neutral. The only time I feel like I can use dtilt is as an occasional substitute for DD grab. How can I use dtilt and pressure my opponent with DD grab at the same time?

- When is the optimal time to use walking? Most of the time I use it, it feels like I am letting my opponents do almost anything that want, but sometimes, it seems really good.

 

[V]

You're right in your assumption of what the neutral position is, it's when neither player has the advantage and both are looking for an opening. People say to DD grab in the neutral because it's Marth's most efficient way of gaining the advantage. You could dash cancel crouch > dtilt or you could just WD > dtilt. Either way, committing to a dtilt leaves DD grab unavailable for the duration of the move, but dtilt is usually safe enough due to IASA frames that it isn't a poor option. I usually only see Marth players walk when they're underneath their opponent on a platform. You pretty much always want to be mobile with Marth since he pressures by controlling space, the moment you give that up by walking you just gave your opponent a free opening, unless you're baiting them to hit your shield, which is inferior to DD grab anyway.

 

[Xyzz]

real niggas start on lunatic lol

If this was "Double Dealing Character" we were speaking of, I'd actually be impressed

concerning milk and m2k:
never heard anyone that enthusiastic about milk LOL

Milk is awesome :3

I rather look like the type who'd empty the beer barrel on his own if left unchecked (and actually would do so :x), but milk and its mixtures with alcohol are super tasty as well <3 :D

 

[Frame Perfect]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

[ArcNatural]

I actually think walking with Marth is underused right now. You can instantly DD out of it, you can instill the fear of being able to do any of Marth's grounded moves on top of his DD/grab game. It's not the end-all be-all thing to do, but I definitely think Marth probably has the best walk movesets in the game.

It's one of those things where most players feel like they are controlling space more by DDing and running around. But watching my own videos makes me realize I often DD right out of space controlling situations.

Does anyone understand what I mean? I feel like I constantly reset my position to back to neutral wayyyy more than I should, with almost every character. Not that resetting to neutral is necessarily bad all the time. But I think neutral habits are way harder to read than pressured habits. It's the number 1 thing I notice when I watch my own videos "Oh I just ran away when I had pressure, again..., again..., again..., T.T"

 

[Bones0]

Walking: proof that anything in Melee can be an advanced tech.

 

[Niko45]

Walking is definitely HUGE for Marth imo. You pretty much should never be spamming DD. Just quick single dash aways for your pivot grabs and whatnot. Decent players are not fooled by DDing and aren't just gonna whiff moves cause you're moving, and like mentioned, you lose a ton of options and space control by doing it.

 

[CyberZixx]

I know what you mean. I am prone to bad dash danceing as well. I will sometimes do it at a position where it is not threatening in the least as the opponent does not have to deal with it. It becomes stalling at that point.

 

[Beat!]

More importantly, Marth's walk is also pretty bad-ass.

 

[knightpraetor]

whenever I see a Marth who doesn't insert walk into his game, i just automatically assume they are bad. It's possible I suppose to be good without knowing how to abuse walk..but how bad are you if you don't master the advantages of the very first skill you learn in the game.

the only reason I didn't respond earlier was because suggesting walk is bad is too ridiculous of a statement to be worth commenting on. Even my scrub brother learned to use walk correctly long before he could wd or dashdance. Do you have any idea how many walk tippers i have been hit by in my life?

The only reason you would stop using walk as much is if you could pivot fsmash/bair/dtilt/etc on command all the time. Even then it would still be good to reduce the probability of you making a mistake.

random aside, I no longer believe marth vs sheik is disadvantaged.

play safer, jump less, profit. I know people said that to me before, and it never helped me much. But I think the big difference is that eventually marth reaches a point where he outputs as much or more damage as a sheik can.. Even if the combos are harder, you can get just as much. Sheik actually works for her grabs. We just get them for free.

 

[FrootLoop]

I don't get walking. Your grab/dtilt is much less threatening and your movement is super projected/predictable (obviously you can dash but at that point you're done with walking for the foreseeable future so it can't really be a staple strategy and then what was the point of walking anyway?). jab/ftilt/fsmash all kinda do the same thing in neutral and are quite risky there. uptilt/upsmash/dsmash don't really have a place in neutral either. He doesn't gain notable range and he loses the speed of his dash.

I will walk to adjust my footing by a small amount when my opponent is busy with something else like recovering or falling from a height or something but I don't understand it's trumps over dashdancing in neutral.

 

[CyberZixx]

That is how I see walking too. I won't walk at someone in neutral. When I do walk it is to position my self slightly for better stage positions when they are in the air or on a platform or something. On some occasions you can walk a couple steps to get a tipper when other wise you could not. That always feels good.

 

[Deleted member]

i think of all of the movement as basically synonymous. however you choose to position yourself doesn't really matter as long as you get there. I'll put in a +1 on walking while the opponent is occupied, i use walking to finesse my spacing to allow me to remain reactive fairly often. but it's more like one of those things that no one really talks about because it's not that important.

edit: dashdancing isn't really a tool you use to "fool" people or it would be significantly worse. DD is a degenerate tactic that allows the player to establish stage position by taking stage space while maintaining a low commitment to keep reactive play enabled. When all of your moves are disjointed and you can stuff out your opponents' shit on reaction, that's really, really good. No trickery necessary.

 

[Niko45]

I don't get walking. Your grab/dtilt is much less threatening and your movement is super projected/predictable (obviously you can dash but at that point you're done with walking for the foreseeable future so it can't really be a staple strategy and then what was the point of walking anyway?). jab/ftilt/fsmash all kinda do the same thing in neutral and are quite risky there. uptilt/upsmash/dsmash don't really have a place in neutral either. He doesn't gain notable range and he loses the speed of his dash.

I will walk to adjust my footing by a small amount when my opponent is busy with something else like recovering or falling from a height or something but I don't understand it's trumps over dashdancing in neutral.

I don't really disagree with any of that. You're saying you don't agree with walking and then at the end you say you use walking. Use it when it's appropriate. I wasn't saying you can just walk around willy nilly and no harm will come to you from neutral. But, lets say my opponent and I are at opposite ends of FD. I'd much rather walk towards him than dash towards him. Less can go wrong. And yea, being able to make more slight detailed adjustments to your spacing is HUGE in general, I don't think anyone is arguing against that tho.

 

[Bones0]

I don't really disagree with any of that. You're saying you don't agree with walking and then at the end you say you use walking. Use it when it's appropriate. I wasn't saying you can just walk around willy nilly and no harm will come to you from neutral. But, lets say my opponent and I are at opposite ends of FD. I'd much rather walk towards him than dash towards him. Less can go wrong. And yea, being able to make more slight detailed adjustments to your spacing is HUGE in general, I don't think anyone is arguing against that tho.

If you're on opposite sides of FD, all walking is going to do is give up more stage than if you start with a dash and simply run cancel or WD so your lag will expire before they can reach you. It is a strictly worse option in that scenario. I am interested in applying walking since I don't really use it, but macro movement doesn't seem like an applicable situation for it. I already use it to adjust spacing during tech chases and stuff, but I could also see it being used more to "creep" on people when you know they will do something but can't cover it directly.

So for instance, if someone is going to tech near the ledge and only really has 2 and half options (because TIP and tech towards the ledge are both really close), I could see that as an opportunity to cover TIP/roll away with a grab while still being able to turnaround utilt tech roll behind. Most people would just grab, but if the opponent is a floaty at kill % or a FFer that will be sent off stage then that seems like a better option. I'd imagine it's much worse for the opponent because they'll be DIing for a regrab dthrow to the ledge that 99% of Marths will do 99% of the time, but if they get utilted with horrible DI instead, it's way better. That's just my thought. Hopefully someone more accustomed to using walk can expand on this sort of application.

 

[Beat!]

the only reason I didn't respond earlier was because suggesting walk is bad is too ridiculous of a statement to be worth commenting on

Is this a response to my post? Because I said bad-a$$, not bad.

 

[Xyzz]

Bad-a$$ <=> a$$-bad, learn the difference! :D

(I think walking is great for micro spacing adjustments to get into tipper range. Or just casually walking away from approaching shffls and then hitting them for whiffing is one of the most fun things in the game)

 

[FrootLoop]

I don't really disagree with any of that. You're saying you don't agree with walking and then at the end you say you use walking. Use it when it's appropriate. I wasn't saying you can just walk around willy nilly and no harm will come to you from neutral. But, lets say my opponent and I are at opposite ends of FD. I'd much rather walk towards him than dash towards him. Less can go wrong. And yea, being able to make more slight detailed adjustments to your spacing is HUGE in general, I don't think anyone is arguing against that tho.

I see. I thought dudes were talking about it's uses in neutral so that's what I didn't agree with. When you have a million years before something happens again then walking is fine.

 

[Tee ay eye]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz8l1vY37pw

 

[Purpletuce]

You guys aren't talking about how to really use walking. Yeah, I guess you can use it in practical situations, but using it as a call-out, and letting your opponent know you're afraid is hilarious.

Here is my challenge: In a semi-serious set, go from being pinned at the ledge to getting stage control using only walk, or go from having to stage control to pinning someone at the ledge using only walk.

 

[knightpraetor]

take control then walk back. walk back is better than dash back for fine spacing on aerials when covering people crossing high while also making it much easier to catch rolls before they can even spotdodge. walk forward when at frame advantage can allow you to catch them escaping with much stronger stuff than merely dash grab or fair. walk forward allows for catching campy floaties with ftilt. There are more, but those are what pop into my head instantly. Constant dashdancing is probably the main reason why the marth's in my region perform so poorly. I watch and they inevitably lose because the spacey crosses over top while they are busy dashing and then they can't get a decent aerial out in the right position because the position they wanted to be in required them to walk and their dash took them too far. Yes they could time their dash better and ensure they are the midpoint of the dash at the right time, but that introduces room for error. Also they have momentum, which makes it difficult to go straight up.

as for your challenge purpletuce, every day i walk forward 2millimeters and get the right spacing to poke with dtilt and get out of the corner. good luck dash pivot dtilting your way out of the corner

 

[Niko45]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz8l1vY37pw

looooooooool

 

[G3TL05T]

Fox isn't the only viable character in this metagame on his own. If a character can break top 8 at a national without a secondary I'd say they're viable. The only character I'll arbitrarily exclude from this is Doc because Shroomed is just a great player and Doc works for him. So imo this would mean that Fox, Falco, Puff, Sheik, Peach, Falcon, and I guess ICs are viable. I'm not doubting that Marth is a viable character, I would just like to see a player consistently place top 8 in large scale tournaments using only Marth, which is something I haven't seen in a long time.

I doubt Falcon is any more viable than Marth. I think there's just some inactivity with him, but if M2K and PP used Marth only, I bet they could do it, but I see your reasoning. Can't say I disagree

 

[G3TL05T]

Except his Sheik is in its prime and still falling just short and his Marth is very rusty and still holds its own when he uses it. His reliance on Sheik has caused his skill with Marth to deteriorate to an extent which furthers his own opinion that his Sheik is better, when the reality is that his Marth isn't as good because he opted for it to not be as good. If he recognized this and went back to putting his effort into Marth again he would see considerable improvement to the point where I think he'd stop relying on Sheik.

The biggest issue with his Marth is that it's more susceptible to his negative mentality than his Sheik is. When things aren't going his way his Marth suffers much more than his Sheik because he's losing the mental sharpness required to perform well with Marth. On the other hand, his Marth gets much more crowd hype than his Sheik, which is the most important factor to him retaining a positive mentallity. M2K loses to himself, not other players. He has nothing to lose trying to make it through a tournament with just Marth again because he's barely missing the mark every single time with his current method. If his Marth is a free win on FD with no attention given to him, there's no reason why he can't perfom as well if not better with him on every other stage if he focused solely on him.

I have to agree, since from what I've seen, M2K pulls off AMAZING stuff with Marth at times, and his Sheik is consistent, but just not good enough. After all, Mango and PP are some of the best players, and from what I've heard, most people agree that Marth deals with Fox and Falco better. I don't really know much about the Marth-Puff vs Marth-Sheik matchup though, but the sure ain't beating HBox with Fox.

 

[Strider]

What are some of the best approaches to use as Marth and some good basic combos I can start off learning? I think I am probably going to make him my main.

 

[Deleted member]

What are some of the best approaches to use as Marth and some good basic combos I can start off learning? I think I am probably going to make him my main.

my personal favorites:

dashdance > observe

grab > throw > observe (the basis of juggling)
grab > throw > pre-emptive low risk disrespect interrupt that doesn't forfeit position (e.g. upthrow > uptilt)

observe > grab/dtilt
observe > interrupt (always a sword hit)
observe > dashdance

other stuff:

- your hits don't have to be consecutive and overlapping hitstun to be a "combo" if your opponents can do anything about it.
- marth doesn't actually have many true combos. almost all of marth's combos are based around the opponent being in a crappy position to deal with your range and sword range.
- damage doesn't matter for this character.
- an interrupt is simply attacking the opponent's attack when you know you'll win. extremely common for this character once you know what you're looking for leads to lots of free hits.
- observation is NOT a slow action. typically observation is simply to confirm that you can do whatever it is that you wish to do. This is only bound by your reflexes and should generally be faster than any of marth's swings. for example, grab > throw > observe over and over is just marth's chaingrab, and you can do that as quickly as you feel comfortable as long as your opponent doesn't mash out.

by the time you understand these, you will be a much better player.