Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Strider]

my personal favorites:

dashdance > observe

grab > throw > observe (the basis of juggling)
grab > throw > pre-emptive low risk disrespect interrupt that doesn't forfeit position (e.g. upthrow > uptilt)

observe > grab/dtilt
observe > interrupt (always a sword hit)
observe > dashdance

other stuff:

- your hits don't have to be consecutive and overlapping hitstun to be a "combo" if your opponents can do anything about it.
- marth doesn't actually have many true combos. almost all of marth's combos are based around the opponent being in a crappy position to deal with your range and sword range.
- damage doesn't matter for this character.
- an interrupt is simply attacking the opponent's attack when you know you'll win. extremely common for this character once you know what you're looking for leads to lots of free hits.
- observation is NOT a slow action. typically observation is simply to confirm that you can do whatever it is that you wish to do. This is only bound by your reflexes and should generally be faster than any of marth's swings. for example, grab > throw > observe over and over is just marth's chaingrab, and you can do that as quickly as you feel comfortable as long as your opponent doesn't mash out.

by the time you understand these, you will be a much better player.

Thanks for the tips, what exactly do you mean by damage doesn't matter for Marth though? Also, even if Marth doesn't have many true combos, what about the Ken combo I keep seeing? Is there a video anywhere that shows what that is and possibly how to do it?

 

[CyberZixx]

Marth does not play for damage as he gains nothing by racking it up. He is not peach who can't kill before 100 percent. Marth plays for positional advantage and liming the opponents options. Umbroen could explain it much better than that.

Ken combo is doing a forward air into a dair spike. Knowing when you are able to dair someone is crutial for Marth's punish game. It does have to be from a fair but that is just a old school and common set up for it. It is actually DI dependent so it is not so common to see these days.

 

[Deleted member]

the ken combo is simply rising fair > 2nd jump > dair. it's not a true combo if the opponent DIs away on the fair outside of very narrow circumstances. the caveat here is that no one really wants to DI the fair away either because it puts that player into an awful position to recover.

 

[Strider]

Marth does not play for damage as he gains nothing by racking it up. He is not peach who can't kill before 100 percent. Marth plays for positional advantage and liming the opponents options. Umbroen could explain it much better than that.


Ken combo is doing a forward air into a dair spike. Knowing when you are able to dair someone is crutial for Marth's punish game. It does have to be from a fair but that is just a old school and common set up for it. It is actually DI dependent so it is not so common to see these days.

The dair is definitely something I have been working on learning when to use and punishing is something I have been wanting to improve on lately as I feel I could do it MUCH more than I currently do. I just haven't been able to play with a real person lately unfortunately.

the ken combo is simply rising fair > 2nd jump > dair. it's not a true combo if the opponent DIs away on the fair outside of very narrow circumstances. the caveat here is that no one really wants to DI the fair away either because it puts that player into an awful position to recover.

Now that you guys say it I do recall seeing that every once in a while when I am watching Marth videos. I can also see how important spacing and position is for Marth when I watch them.

 

[Sacredtwin11]

Yay smashboards is back

 

[Dr Peepee]

^lmao

hello again all!

 

[Mahie]

I'm now convinced Marth is the best in the game alongside Fox.

Now onto proving it.

 

[CyberZixx]

Hello PP. Nice to have this place back. What makes you say that Mahie?

 

[Bones0]

Hello PP. Nice to have this place back. What makes you say that Mahie?

Probably from all that inspirational Marth vs. Puff gameplay at TFC.

 

[MookieRah]

I have missed this thread.

In the down time I've spent a lot of time practicing, and mostly evaluating my decision making process. Funny enough, it seems like one can learn A LOT of stuff about common decisions by playing comps. Basically I've been working on stuff I've learned from this thread along the lines of:

Always approach safely from neutral (either with pure movement or dtilt pokes/jabs into things).
Don't ever approach with aerials ever (and if you are forced to, try to make it a tipper since those are safe on shield).
Try to end combos with your opponent offstage.
Don't get greedy, if you don't feel something is guaranteed it's better not to go for it.
Take advantage of every opportunity your opponent gives you (obviously to a point, comps make consistent errors)
Spacing, spacing, spacing, spacing (now I'm working on using specific parts of utilt to affect my opponents DI options)
Movement. (The end all be all. I'm getting a lot better, but I know that I still have a lot to learn from watching vids)

Amazing things I've learned from doing this:
You can, in fact, do amazing things on reaction. With few exceptions, before now I haven't been in complete control of my character or myself in this game. Usually I would run on instinct, and I would *want* combos more than I would *make* them. If that makes any sense. This is also a skill that gets better with time, and the more you focus on putting thought behind every move, the easier and quicker you become at performing more optimal solutions to given situations.

Also, working on pure movement/mobility is probably the best way to improve combos. When you can waveland almost everything without much thought, dash dance smoothly, and in general move with a purpose combos sort of just happen.

That said, I have some specific questions.

@Dr Peepee
In the Smash Lab episode on your match with Armada you mention practicing dash dancing against computers to get a feel for a character's range. I was messing with that the other day and most comps seem to be pretty derp and usually run a very simple decision tree that only uses a few moves of their moveset. Are there any comps that you know of that are actually halfway decent at well... using more of their moves?

Also what, if any, are some tell-tell signs that your opponent did something they really didn't intend? I know this question sounds dumb, cause after the fact, it's obvious, but in the moment some things are so obvious and one can react on it too late. You mentioned Armada making one mistake and then discussed your thought process regarding dash attacking him, and I want to be able to notice that and capitalize on it as well. If I knew your frame of mind then I might be able to more quickly learn your decision making process on this.

@Anyone who has mastered shield dropping
I can now do this quite consistently when I want to against comps. I usually just use it as an alternative to fall through the stage merely for practice. I'm at the stage now that I need to work on it with real people, but I don't get many opportunities. My question is, what do you look for from your opponent that cues you to prep for a shield drop? It has to be a bit of a read I gather, as it would be really hard to react to anything that isn't obvious. I know this is a vague question, but anything here would shed light on how one should go about learning how to implement this into his/her game.

 

[Bones0]

Also what, if any, are some tell-tell signs that your opponent did something they really didn't intend? I know this question sounds dumb, cause after the fact, it's obvious, but in the moment some things are so obvious and one can react on it too late. You mentioned Armada making one mistake and then discussed your thought process regarding dash attacking him, and I want to be able to notice that and capitalize on it as well. If I knew your frame of mind then I might be able to more quickly learn your decision making process on this.

@Anyone who has mastered shield dropping
I can now do this quite consistently when I want to against comps. I usually just use it as an alternative to fall through the stage merely for practice. I'm at the stage now that I need to work on it with real people, but I don't get many opportunities. My question is, what do you look for from your opponent that cues you to prep for a shield drop? It has to be a bit of a read I gather, as it would be really hard to react to anything that isn't obvious. I know this is a vague question, but anything here would shed light on how one should go about learning how to implement this into his/her game.

I don't think it really matters if someone does an attack/movement intentionally or not. It will either be punishable or not. Maybe I'm not too clear on the type of situation you are talking about, but whenever the opponent gives you an opening (intentionally or otherwise), you just have to know exactly what to do. I think it is largely instinctive habits built up over time because you can't really sit there and think about it for a split second or else the moment will pass. Maybe try picking a default punish (grab is a pretty good one for Marth lol), and then from there you can branch off into different knee-jerk punishes when you realize a grab won't work.

To be perfectly honest, opportunities to shield drop really just aren't common, even if you're really good at fitting it into situations. I feel like I have a healthy list of scenarios where I am able to apply it, but ultimately I only use it 1-2 times per stock, if that. Probably even less as Marth because of how easily he is shield poked. Just try to treat it the same as any other OoS option when you try to decide when it is effective or not. You can always opt to not shield drop, and then go back and rewatch the match to see situations where you could have used it to good effect.

Note: I am only referencing standing shield drops because shai dropping is basically an entirely different technique (I view it primarily as a movement technique whereas standing shieldrops are OoS options).

 

[Diakonos]

I'm now convinced Marth is the best in the game alongside Fox.

Now onto proving it.

You'll have to surmount a fair deal of evidence to convince the Marth boards that Marth does not, in fact, suck.

 

[Beat!]

I'm now convinced Marth is the best in the game alongside Fox.

Now onto proving it.

Bless the Tiara, he has seen the light!

But seriously, welcome on board. It's a pretty rough ride, but one that's slowly gaining passengers.

@Anyone who has mastered shield dropping
I can now do this quite consistently when I want to against comps. I usually just use it as an alternative to fall through the stage merely for practice. I'm at the stage now that I need to work on it with real people, but I don't get many opportunities. My question is, what do you look for from your opponent that cues you to prep for a shield drop? It has to be a bit of a read I gather, as it would be really hard to react to anything that isn't obvious. I know this is a vague question, but anything here would shed light on how one should go about learning how to implement this into his/her game.

It depends. Against players who are not used to playing against a shield dropper, you'll get plenty of opportunities thanks to them doing laggy attacks when you're shielding on a side platform. An example that's commonly seen is Fox/Falco shielding Marth's uptilt and dropping down with an aerial. For Marth, the ideal situation is when your opponent overcommits to anything that involves jumping above you so you can punish them with shield drop uair, because shield drop uair is ****ing amazing.

Against more experienced players, these situations will not arise nearly as often (but you should still be prepared for them), and because of that, shield dropping goes from being a monstrous momentum-changer to an overall solid and fairly unpredictable move. It's hard to get specific, but one thing I can say is that you should never forget that shield dropping is a solid way to get back on the ground. It doesn't always have to be a clean punish available. Just the fact that you managed to get back down and reset to a neutral position is a victory in many cases.

 

[MookieRah]

I don't think it really matters if someone does an attack/movement intentionally or not. It will either be punishable or not.

Well if you understood the context I think you would know what I'm talking about. In this case, Armada accidentally makes a weird mistake and performs a nair out of place. That, in and of itself, wasn't very punishable. Afterwards, he was open slightly to counterattack, but it was more of the fact that Armada was VERY conscious of his previous mishap that his retreat was inevitable, and Peepee punished the retreat option that he suspected Armada to take.

Yeah, a bit of a read, but more of a low risk high reward scenario. Basically what I was trying to get at is what kind of things would Peepee look for, or what is his gameplan, for catching these things. I don't know if he has one, it's probably just experience, but maybe he could say something that would shed some light on the situation.

As far as waiting/reacting and thinking, I'm not talking about thinking for an extended period of time. It's more that things become clear when you wait a millisecond before you act, because if you are acting purely on instinct then often you tend to try to force situations to occur. Or at least that's my personal experience with it. In general, it's hard to sum up what I'm discussing because it's more of a feeling. When I play this way, I feel entirely in control, and I don't worry about landing a kill move, or wanting something to happen. I know that if I continue to observe, react, and perform in a smart way things will end up working out well.

 

[Mahie]

I think Marth is among the best because he's one of the rare characters (Alongside Fox, maybe) that can really work with reactionary flowchart type of play. He has the sword which allows him to beat virtually any move if you act second, and has the movement to set it up in so many ways.

He also has the punish game to zero to death fastfallers, again, with pure reaction on a consistent basis, and force real bad trades for floaties (Lose your double jump or get uaired?) that involve no risks at all for the Marth player if executed correctly.

It's just about getting enough experience never to get overwhelmed.

Also to be honest I haven't watched anything from TFC yet, I was at a tournament myself in Paris.

 

[Dr Peepee]

[quote="MookieRah, post: 15824688, member: 13455"

@Dr Peepee
In the Smash Lab episode on your match with Armada you mention practicing dash dancing against computers to get a feel for a character's range. I was messing with that the other day and most comps seem to be pretty derp and usually run a very simple decision tree that only uses a few moves of their moveset. Are there any comps that you know of that are actually halfway decent at well... using more of their moves?

Also what, if any, are some tell-tell signs that your opponent did something they really didn't intend? I know this question sounds dumb, cause after the fact, it's obvious, but in the moment some things are so obvious and one can react on it too late. You mentioned Armada making one mistake and then discussed your thought process regarding dash attacking him, and I want to be able to notice that and capitalize on it as well. If I knew your frame of mind then I might be able to more quickly learn your decision making process on this.

[/quote]
Yeah the idea is to practice DD'ing against level 7s, 8s, or 9s. The idea is to get close to the opponent and see if you can dodge while forcing their attack. Depending on how you do it actually, CPUs respond differently. I can predict Peach dash attacks by alternating my timing/spacing on my DD slightly for example. You should practice the movement into counters or dodges when close or just practice DD'ing close to the opponent while avoiding their moves. Marth is amazing at this so you have this going for ya haha.

That other question is super hard to answer easily. Generally when people mess up they put up a shield or insta-roll away. The idea is that people feel very stuck in situations naturally so they freeze up and try to escape the bad situation or reset it. Seeing when they mess up is dependent on matchup, character understanding, and game knowledge. A pretty good way to know if a mistake is coming as one example is if you have momentum and continue putting pressure on the other guy. Another is if you dodge or counter an attack someone committed pretty hard to, putting them off-balance.

 

[MookieRah]

I didn't have time to touch on this in my previous post, but thanks Beat! and Bones0 for answering my question regarding shield dropping. I think I have a good idea as to how/when to use it.

Random off topic but too lazy to PM: Beat! are you the same Beat on Smash för svenskar?

@Dr Peepee
Thanks for the responses. I know that last one was quite hard, but I have a better idea of "when" to look for mistakes like that now. Again, it seems rather obvious in retrospect, but it will help me greatly for being able to spot and recognize things like that sooner.

@Mahie
I kinda feel the same about Marth as well; however, I fear that it might not be humanly possible to be as consistent as necessary to keep up with the other top tiers. I mean, it likely is possible, but the more I work with Marth the more I feel that he is about really honing one's trained reaction time and observation. His punishes, on the large, don't lead to as easy of setups as say, Sheik's does. Even if his sword allows him the potential to beat pretty much everything, he has very few easy KO options that a lot of characters have at certain percents, (by this I mean a downthrow > LOL KILL MOVE setup) so each time you out prioritize your opponent you are rewarded less than other characters in a lot of situations.

TL:DR: Marth seems to be about attrition, and it takes a lot of mental power to maintain that.

 

[Beat!]

Random off topic but too lazy to PM: Beat! are you the same Beat on Smash för svenskar?

Indeed. Hi. :D

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

So what's the best way to go from hoping someone makes a mistake and punishing to forcing a mistake to punish?

I've been experimenting with subtle movement cues like crouching down/empty hopping to kind of to fake a punish/overcommitment to bait a tech a certain way or doing a quick shield before fairing to condition them and then mixing it up with a tomahawk. Does anyone else do this or is this stuff that doesn't really work and just makes my game more predictable?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You force a mistake with offense. This doesn't mean trying to hit them so much as threatening movements or attacks done closer to the person and then sometimes trying to hit them. Putting someone under that pressure successfully is a great way to force mistakes. More famous examples are when Mango forces Hbox to roll when he gets close to him in shield and does whatever he wants lol.

 

[Mahie]

Smashboards wanted me to doublepost somehow with all these "Request expired".

My bad.

 

[Mahie]

You can also force mistakes from opponents who play on reaction by setting up frametraps.

For instance, if you know that you can stay exactly 11 frames before getting hit by marth's fsmash at tipper range, then you stay in there 10 frames and on the 11th you move right out of the range.

The move will graze you, your opponent will look dumb and you will have the best time possible for retaliation.

If performed well it looks like this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk09c6iLLdU

You don't need to try these fancy tomahawk things with Marth, imo. He doesn't need them much. You really want to limit that kind of gambles with him.

 

[Deleted member]

You'll have to surmount a fair deal of evidence to convince the Marth boards that Marth does not, in fact, suck.

imagine if falco shot you out of all of your moves whenever you did anything, except he could move much faster and every time he did it you could actually die regardless of %. that's marth. this character is fucking ********.

let the shitfest begin.

 

[Bones0]

How viable is dthrow tech chasing Falcon/Sheik? Sometimes it seems like as long as they can't slide off onto a ledge it's the best option (assuming you can get the regrab consistently).

 

[Dr Peepee]

Vs Falcon I do it until around 7-8% and then I believe Fthrow is more effective.

Sheik feels more gimmicky to me and I'm not sure it actually works.

 

[Deleted member]

coinflipping sheik's ground game from a marginal advantage is not a good place to be. the risk for her to get an easy conversion is too high. stick to upthrow imo.

 

[Bones0]

coinflipping sheik's ground game from a marginal advantage is not a good place to be. the risk for her to get an easy conversion is too high. stick to upthrow imo.

If you can do the CG properly, the risk becomes nonexistent. That's why I was curious about whether it is technically possible. If it is potentially doable, I would like to do it. I'm sure people used to think techchasing spacies with regrabs as Sheik was also a coin flip that wasn't worth it, but then you look at M2K taking stocks uncontested because he's developed that skill to absurd levels so I don't see why it can't be the same for Marth.

 

[Deleted member]

first off it's not a CG. it's a tech chase. CG eliminates options, tech chase gives options.

second, doing it to falcon is a lot more reasonable because his ground game is garbage.

third, sheik's works because the time margin is a lot better on proper DI. with sheik you can downthrow and WD to where the opponent DIs and the margin for reaction is much better. for or sheik on marth's downthrow, he can DI the throw hard away and marth's dash is much worse at covering that spatial timing than sheik's downthrow is on fox. i'd recommend downthrow on falcon all day because even if you fail to tech chase him, you can generally stuff whatever he does out of it with the lolsword. with sheik she'll just stick out the suggestive foot and play with your corpse.

 

[CyberZixx]

So why is it no Marth player uses Ftilt? I was trying out that move today to some success. I was useing it when someone was is in a bad position, like say at the edge where they were forced to eat it and got off stage or block it and fall victim to a mix up.

 

[Beat!]

Yeah, I like ftilt. Fairly solid move against floaties. As to why people don't do it, two reasons I can think of (which were the main reasons it took me a while to start using ftilt) are that it looks kind of awkward visually, and that if you just gloss over the move instead of testing and observing it properly, it kind of just feels like a weaker fsmash, so it becomes a low priority when it comes to experimenting with new stuff.

 

[MookieRah]

So I have a question in regards to dash dancing. What is the optimal amount of space one needs to give the top tiers in order to be safe but have a good shot at countering their actions? I was looking at Mango vids, and this is some of the data I've gathered.

These are all based upon the idea of a dash dance having an anchor point that is in the center of the area that Marth would cover along the ground. For example:

Furthest distance away |------------(anchor point)------------| Closest to opponent

Peach: Around the width of a full Marth wavedash, perhaps a tiny bit more. Far enough away to avoid dash attack, but close enough to punish a turnip pull.
Marth: Shortly outside fsmash tipper range.
Fox: Shortly outside fox's fsmash range.
Falco: ? - Lasers obviously make this a hard distinction
Falcon: ? - Haven't gotten this far in watching vids, but I assume it should be around a full wavedash length.
Sheik: ? - Maybe outside her insta dash grab range somewhere in the ballpark of Marth's tipper fsmash range?
Jiggs: Fsmash tipper range? Mango gets in closer, but converting this over for Marth it doesn't make sense to get as close due to Marth's reach.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is incredibly wrong though. My gut instinct says that Marth could probably do OK against most characters floating around at his tipper range seeing how that is a very strong position for Marth and being constantly threatened by the possibility of a tipper is pretty rough.

 

[Beat!]

That's a tough question to answer conclusively because the neutral game is so dynamic. Your list seems like a good start as far as I can tell, and it could probably work out as a general guideline, but it doesn't account for what state your opponent is in (standing still/dashdancing/jumping etc) or how much room they/you have to work with. The "optimal" range largely depends on these factors. For example, against a stationary Fox, being just outside fsmash range seems good enough, but that same spacing against a dashdancing Fox runs the risk of getting grabbed (especially if they boost grab) if you're not very cautious about what you're doing.

But as I said, your list is a good start, and I definitely think it could potentially act as an introduction/guideline to dashdance spacing.

 

[Mahie]

Like I said a bit above, it's not only a matter of range, but also a matter of time. Jiggs' neutralB covers the whole stage but you don't take it into account because the start up time is ********.

Basically, you need to be aware of all your opponent's ranges, and how long it takes for him to reach that spot. Proper dashdancing, and by that I mean threatening dashdancing so as not to lose ground, is done by remaining in these ranges as long as possible, thus forcing the opponent to respond whilst having no actual responses.

He will be able to retreat, thus leading him to the edge, to attack (and whiff if you were DDing properly), or to move towards you with pure movement but that should also be taken into account in the first place.

Fox's Fsmash range for instance, is not the distance at which you want to be sitting.. Him and Falco can cover a LOT with their SH Nairs, and that's the zone you want to avoid at all costs, but without actually losing any ground overall.

If that's not clear enough I don't mind trying to explain otherwise, using words for this is hard sometimes.

 

[Purpletuce]

How I think about it:

The way I think of it is you want to be at a space, where you can react to their furthest reaching move in adequate time. (Move that you're afraid of). So if it is against Peach, it would probably be some length of her dash. If you can CC, you can afford to be closer, because if she hits with the end of the dash attack, you can CC it and punish. Since you don't fear the weak dash attack, you can be inside of its range. If she does a SH and floats, you can afford to be even closer, because she loses the option of a dash attack, and FC Fair is her farthest reaching move. Against Fox, you should beware his Shffl Nair. However, if you think he will shffl nair, and can stuff it, then you might want to be in a range to bait the nair.

One big factor is this all is compounded by your ability to respond. If Mango is at the edge of their spacing, at a point where he can react to if they commit to something, and maybe dash away, then he is at a good spacing. However, if you are at the same spacing, and don't have the reaction time to back away in that time, then that is poor spacing (for you), and you will require to be further apart from your opponent. Naturally, the closer you are after they whiff the better your ability to punish.

A final note, the character you're using also makes a huge difference. Say you're against Fox, and he is trying to shffl nair. If you're Puff, you'll probably want to punish the landing, so you'll want to opt to be further away. If you're Shiek, you might want to stop him from using the move when he tries it, or trade. Shiek will want to be closer to the Fox. Note that Puff doesn't need to be too far away from Fox, because she also can cover the ground more effectively (in the air).

Some characters can do both in certain situations. Some characters can do neither. As you expand the number of situations, you consider the various moves your opponent can use, your various options for dealing with them, and different setups (how much time you have to set up, how much time they have to set up. . .) It gets really complex really quickly, but generally you can get a feel for the spacing pretty quick when you play.

 

[MookieRah]

But as I said, your list is a good start, and I definitely think it could potentially act as an introduction/guideline to dashdance spacing.​

​

Ok, well it's good to hear that I've started on the right foot. I *think* from there I have an idea of how to work things from past experience. Like you said, it would be very hard to make a guideline for all the various states one can be in while in neutral. ​

I should probably take a step back figure out precisely how far away I can be from any opponent while still within countering range for most things. Of course dashing grabs/attacks are a different beast entirely, but I think that general spacing would give me enough time to dash away on reaction. ​

On an entirely different note, I'm working on actually being able to pivot fsmash consistently out of any point in my dash dance. Don't know if anyone else is attempting to do this too, but if you are and have any tips please feel free to drop them on me. I'm not even sure if this is viable, but it's certainly doing wonders for my tech skill involved with pivoting.

Edit: Didn't see the above 2 posts before posting this. Lots of good info. Also, lots of bugs on the boards now O_O. I don't know how to fix the formatting problem in this post.

 

[Beat!]

On an entirely different note, I'm working on actually being able to pivot fsmash consistently out of any point in my dash dance. Don't know if anyone else is attempting to do this too, but if you are and have any tips please feel free to drop them on me. I'm not even sure if this is viable, but it's certainly doing wonders for my tech skill involved with pivoting.

I can do it consistently. Certainly worth learning. Dunno if I can give any useful tips though. I just slam the control stick first and the c-stick a split second afterwards.

 

[Mahie]

Definitely viable. I can punish whiffed stuff with pivot fsmashes out of my dash dances, and I even take the luxury to charge the smash sometimes. I also just do a normal stick imput, so you can definitely learn that way too.

I'm not as consistent lately because I don't play as much and it's not something I've been doing long enough for it to be forever burned into my brain, but back when I did practice it would come naturally.

 

[Deleted member]

pivot fsmash is godly as an interrupt. i've been playing with it a little to replace fair to eliminate risk from aerial trades since marth gets stunned forever.

as a combo hit? been pretty mediocre so far. i'll stick with juggles personally.

 

[AustinRC]

To finish your combo with a pivot fsmash you have to do set ups that are slightly different then what marth normally does. The most effective fsmash combo enders are after they use their double jump though. Juggling is broken haha.

 

[MookieRah]

Definitely viable. I can punish whiffed stuff with pivot fsmashes out of my dash dances, and I even take the luxury to charge the smash sometimes. I also just do a normal stick imput, so you can definitely learn that way too.

This is how I do it as well. I don't have the dexterity with both thumbs to sync up consistently yet. Is there a way to easily make the pivot fsmash come out without charging? I can do instant ones with A at 2/3rds speed, but it doesn't seem to register at full speed for some reason.