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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy
- Thread starter Cactuar
- Start date
Heero Yuy
#sweg
Since I've been really confused lately on whom I want to use in this game (since I'm good with Peach, Falco, and Marth), I finally chose Marth because I felt his playstyle suited me best (and he has the same seiyuu as my favorite anime character).
My first question is how do you edgeguard Peach? I watched PP's matches with Armada, as well as a few other Marth-Peach videos, and have noticed that one generally just stands there until she gets close enough. I would think Bairing the crap out of her would work, no?
My first question is how do you edgeguard Peach? I watched PP's matches with Armada, as well as a few other Marth-Peach videos, and have noticed that one generally just stands there until she gets close enough. I would think Bairing the crap out of her would work, no?
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Counterquestion: Why wouldn't you just stand there until she gets close enough?
It is pretty possible to keep hitting her off time and time again, until she dies or at least has taken quite a few swings and the associated percents. You have a really advantageous situation there; you tend to be able to hit her out of her attempts to make it past you and it's virtually risk free because none of her options would really lead to any big punishments. The best she can hope is to trick you somehow and land (which tends to be not even truly neutral, just somewhat less bad for her), or get in a forward air of her own, which doesn't lead to anything productive either.
Now if you go offstage, you take some risk. Sure, your bair is a strong weapon and she can't beat it at will, but especially if she still has her float she has tons of options available in regards to where she goes and if / in what way she might try to counter attack. She also has the option to outstall you, waiting till you have to return (because you can't spend as much time offstage as she can) and then move in on her own, probably making it past you. And well, if she chooses to counterattack, you might even die for it if you're unlucky.
I'd at least make sure she is forced to up b, before going out for her. At that point, I think it's still easier to wait for her to come close to the stage and hit her off again, but at least jumping out is rather safe as well and it might be a shortcut in your efforts to swat her away because she'll probably die more quickly to some offstage bair than endless f/d-tilt shenanigans (or onstage aerials if she is too high for your ground moves)
It is pretty possible to keep hitting her off time and time again, until she dies or at least has taken quite a few swings and the associated percents. You have a really advantageous situation there; you tend to be able to hit her out of her attempts to make it past you and it's virtually risk free because none of her options would really lead to any big punishments. The best she can hope is to trick you somehow and land (which tends to be not even truly neutral, just somewhat less bad for her), or get in a forward air of her own, which doesn't lead to anything productive either.
Now if you go offstage, you take some risk. Sure, your bair is a strong weapon and she can't beat it at will, but especially if she still has her float she has tons of options available in regards to where she goes and if / in what way she might try to counter attack. She also has the option to outstall you, waiting till you have to return (because you can't spend as much time offstage as she can) and then move in on her own, probably making it past you. And well, if she chooses to counterattack, you might even die for it if you're unlucky.
I'd at least make sure she is forced to up b, before going out for her. At that point, I think it's still easier to wait for her to come close to the stage and hit her off again, but at least jumping out is rather safe as well and it might be a shortcut in your efforts to swat her away because she'll probably die more quickly to some offstage bair than endless f/d-tilt shenanigans (or onstage aerials if she is too high for your ground moves)
Beat!
Smash Master
Make her think she has time to fastfall to the ledge, and then dtilt -> edgehog her. If she doesn't fall (heh) for it, just hit her off stage again with whatever's most suitable for the situation (fair/jab/ftilt etc) and repeat the process.
The above is assuming she's recovering with the parasol. If she still has her float you also have to be aware of stuff like air dodging, or coming down with a fair, but the general idea is the same.
If she tries to go high, land an uptilt or an upair and now she's ****ed because she's Peach and you're Marth and you're below her and she doesn't even have her float left.
The above is assuming she's recovering with the parasol. If she still has her float you also have to be aware of stuff like air dodging, or coming down with a fair, but the general idea is the same.
If she tries to go high, land an uptilt or an upair and now she's ****ed because she's Peach and you're Marth and you're below her and she doesn't even have her float left.
Kadano
Magical Express
Ftilt is amazing for edgeguards if you don’t have the time to go offstage. I use it quite often and people whine about it all the time. It covers spacies’ up-Bs down to the ledge almost as well as dtilt, but also works on straight or even slightly downwards angles and tippers pretty easily. If you whiff, you still have plenty of time to land an upair or uptilt.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
I had a decent idea the other day. In regards to finding out the dash dance ranges, wouldn't it be a good idea for Marth players who have access to really good players of certain characters to simply do this:
Take (insert super good player of X character here) to FD. Have them back up to about one Fox wd or so away from the edge. The Marth player starts off two wavedashes away from said good player of character, and proceeds to slowly move forward a bit. Have the good player openly talk about what is going through his/her head about the pressure presented by Marth at every stage, and proceed to move forward until the good player feels that the pressure begins to diminish as Marth begins to overshoot.
Obviously this would be very subjective, and we'd have to get a lot of data and average things, but it'd be a good place to find out optimal ranges because the players of the other characters would know better than Marth mains where Marth is in the most threatening position against them.
Take (insert super good player of X character here) to FD. Have them back up to about one Fox wd or so away from the edge. The Marth player starts off two wavedashes away from said good player of character, and proceeds to slowly move forward a bit. Have the good player openly talk about what is going through his/her head about the pressure presented by Marth at every stage, and proceed to move forward until the good player feels that the pressure begins to diminish as Marth begins to overshoot.
Obviously this would be very subjective, and we'd have to get a lot of data and average things, but it'd be a good place to find out optimal ranges because the players of the other characters would know better than Marth mains where Marth is in the most threatening position against them.
D
Deleted member
Guest
mooks i actually already do that when i'm teaching. it works pretty well.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Spoiler alert: the optimal range is at tipper dtilt/fsmash range.
Mahie
Smash Lord
It's actually the way to go, mook, and also the way to improve your reaction time.
Like in sports, practicing one situation over and over again until it becomes second nature is the best way to respond to it as fast as possible.
Pick situation > Find response to it > Practice said response until it becomes instinct > Profit.
Like in sports, practicing one situation over and over again until it becomes second nature is the best way to respond to it as fast as possible.
Pick situation > Find response to it > Practice said response until it becomes instinct > Profit.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
That's what I've been doing, over, and over, and over. I don't have many opportunities to play human opponents, and the guys here (with the exception to Random-Ness who just moved here WOO-HOO) are beginners, but even still I know that what I've been doing has improved my game quite a lot. I'm just a lot safer and harder to punish because of it.
Mahie
Smash Lord
If you think about it, you can train that way against any level of players. That's how Armada got so much better than the rest of Europe on his own.
If you look at his game, he knows, at least instinctively from all the time he put in the game, how each DI can be followed up, and so on. That's why his game looks so polished, once he gets a hit in, he doesn't think anymore, he just executes.
Marth can do that much even in the neutral game. As Umbreon called it "Interrupts" are when you aim at your opponent's move with the sword. Even in real life terms, it's only logical that a blade would beat a fist, and in the game it translates the very same.
Anyway, once you start thinking about it that way, who you play against has little to do with how you can improve. Whether it's Mango or PP using Ftilt as Falco, or your little sister, at the end of the day, it's still the same Ftilt with the same properties, and if, knowing that, you're able to beat it on reaction, then by all means do it until you don't have to think about it anymore.
That's step 1 to becoming good in smash. Learning the playbook.
If you look at his game, he knows, at least instinctively from all the time he put in the game, how each DI can be followed up, and so on. That's why his game looks so polished, once he gets a hit in, he doesn't think anymore, he just executes.
Marth can do that much even in the neutral game. As Umbreon called it "Interrupts" are when you aim at your opponent's move with the sword. Even in real life terms, it's only logical that a blade would beat a fist, and in the game it translates the very same.
Anyway, once you start thinking about it that way, who you play against has little to do with how you can improve. Whether it's Mango or PP using Ftilt as Falco, or your little sister, at the end of the day, it's still the same Ftilt with the same properties, and if, knowing that, you're able to beat it on reaction, then by all means do it until you don't have to think about it anymore.
That's step 1 to becoming good in smash. Learning the playbook.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Sword beats the fist? Not sure about that one. lol. It can easily trade depending on spacing.
Mahie
Smash Lord
You can never beat the sword. Its a disjointed hitbox and as such it deals damage without being a liability to Marth.
Of course, if you **** up then they will be able to reach the arm holding the sword and trade/beat you, which is something Ganon can do really well with his fair, which I assume you had in mind with your response.
The fact remains that the nature of the tip of Marth's sword allows it to beat virtually any move. And his movement is good enough to bait out virtually any move.
Of course, if you **** up then they will be able to reach the arm holding the sword and trade/beat you, which is something Ganon can do really well with his fair, which I assume you had in mind with your response.
The fact remains that the nature of the tip of Marth's sword allows it to beat virtually any move. And his movement is good enough to bait out virtually any move.
D
Deleted member
Guest
actually, it's about 1.5x perfect fair tip (the one where you can fair a bob-omb and not get hit) give or take some modification for the opponent's movement speed. so fox would be like 2.5x tip fair range for your ideal neutral game placement.
fistbump @ mahie
- Joined
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This line of thinking is why I don't like Peach/Marth anymore. You guys make it so stupid.
CyberZixx
Smash Lord
- Joined
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I always went by ditilt or tipper fsmash range as my go to. What exactly is perfect fair tip?
Bones0
Smash Legend
1.5x tipper fair length is pretty much tipper fsmash length...
D
Deleted member
Guest
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You remembered! :D
...But I can't say I'm terribly excited, considering the gift.
...But I can't say I'm terribly excited, considering the gift.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
And perfect tipper fsmash length is pretty much a full marth wavedash length.
We need a consistent system of measurement!
D
Deleted member
Guest
at least mine forces people to measure by having perfect length fairs upon l cancel.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
You have a point. I should probably practice perfect length fairs by setting bomb-ombs loose on platforms.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Now you just need to come up with an exercise so M2K can practice perfect length dsmash tippers.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
The punch though! It's a little slower but definitely disjointed as well. =(
Xyzz
Smash Champion
You came all this way just to get rested?
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
I feel like I'm missing a part of this conversation.
Bones0
Smash Legend
AceDudeyeah
Smash Ace
I remember umbreons as a unit of measurement once.
Sacredtwin11
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2011
- Messages
- 120
Hey marth mains, out of curiosity, how many have played fire emblem games?
Bones0
Smash Legend
You sure you aren't thinking of Cactuars (jank unit)?
CyberZixx
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2012
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- 1,189
I played the first one of GBA with Lyndis in it. It was a good game.
Mahie
Smash Lord
Same, for a few chapters.
I almost finished the gamecube one, but let go near the end (Chapter twenty something).
And I played a couple hours of the DS one with Marth.
I almost finished the gamecube one, but let go near the end (Chapter twenty something).
And I played a couple hours of the DS one with Marth.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Beat!
Smash Master
Hey, that's you, Umbreon!
... why's your name Morgan?
... why's your name Morgan?
KoopaTroopa895
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2012
- Messages
- 138
Morgan too good, she also has some pretty funny supports
D
Deleted member
Guest
yeah i love the **** out of this character.
i kinda want to restart my game on lunatic/classic. not sure if i'm willing to put down another 80 hours for that lol
i kinda want to restart my game on lunatic/classic. not sure if i'm willing to put down another 80 hours for that lol