Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

Reverse waveland is really good imo. Even if you're not frame tight with it most people are trying to punish your landing lag on Fair or waveland in or even dj onto the stage so it's pretty easy to pull back in time to dodge anything that's waiting for you. I keep playing with it and it just forces their hand so well and allows Marth to actually get back onto the stage the better you get at it so it's really worth learning.

Plus it's kinda fun to just do in general, but maybe that's me lol.

 

[Beat!]

Yeah, reverse ledgedash is definitely NOT overrated. It makes you less predictable and gives you more freedom when you're on the ledge because it's harder to tell when you're gonna go back on stage, and that's exactly what Marth needs. Anything that makes it easier to get back up again from the ledge with this character is worth learning.

Aside from that, it's also the quickest and safest way to refresh your side-B.

 

[MookieRah]

Can anyone list some fundamental things I can practice as Marth? I'm kinda stuck with a whole bunch of techskill with no idea what the right option is half the time. So I'm assuming learning some basics would be a step in the right direction.

Aside from what Peepee said with combining all your tech into different combinations that would more closely simulate a match, there are a lot of things you can practice on by yourself with Marth. I'll give a quick rundown of all the things I've been doing since October which has made me a much better player.

1. Practice movement. This includes wavelanding everything, dash dancing exactly where you want to and jumping out of a dash exactly like you want (as in performing a complicated dash dance and end it with a forward facing backwards hop on command virtually every time.)

2. Practice platform work. Pretty much the same as the above, but with more focus on learning how to interact with the platforms more. This includes shield dropping, and shai dropping. Work on being able to Shai drop from a run on command on a platform and combine it with aerials. Learn to be able to shield drop on command and input an aerial asap.

3. Practice decision making. This is a bit more complicated, but I'll simplify it. Play versus lvl 7 comps (they are good for practicing on seeing as their DI is fairly random). Focus on staying grounded and using safe approaches. Learn to not use aerials to approach, this is almost ALWAYS bad. Learn to use your movement more to create openings, and learn to use dtilt. Also work on never dropping a combo, and to end it at the most appropriate time. Your goal with a combo is to ideally knock them off the stage, or at the very least into a spot where they have less stage presence. Try to think of the game as a battle for who can maintain the best stage control, and focus on leveraging your positional advantages against your opponent.

4. Practice spacing. Also something that I do when playing against lvl 7s. Learn to space your moves to be the most safe, but also learn all of the ways your moves affect your opponent at different spacings. Learn to use the spot at which you land an uair on your opponent so that it limits their DI options (usually try to hit them in such a way that if they DI toward you they end up above, and if they DI away they go more towards off stage) and etc.

6. Learn to pivot fsmash. Learn it with c-stick. Even if it's easier for you to do with the A button, it's just better to use the c-stick as it's much faster to master it than to get instant fsmashes from the A button every time without unintentionally dash attacking.

7. Read up on Kadano's thread and learn to perform the smash DI ledge tech bair. Learn some other obscure insane tech stuff. While a lot of this stuff is almost impossible to perform perfectly, merely attempting to perfect these things will improve your overall execution tremendously.

8. Practice frame perfect spacing. Go into training mode and place bombs on platforms. Learn to aerial the bombs without them exploding on you with a good consistency. If you can do this, landing tippered aerials against moving opponents would be a breeze.

 

[Xyzz]

How does playing lvl7 CPUs help with decision making?

#8 sounds like a really good exercise, I'll probably give that a shot once I've set up a TV here. But isn't hitting tippered aerials against moving targets adding another step, because, well, they are moving? :D

 

[Mahie]

He is confusing learning the playbook with learning decision making.

Learning the perfect option for each situation doesn't require any decision making skills.

It's when that's not enough anymore that you need to think about more stuff, and what to do instead, and why.

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

Thanks for the help everyone! Being from AZ I'm very experienced with shield drop goodness I'm totally on the bandwagon lol (shield drop double tipped uair is too good). I'll deff work on all the stuff you guys mentioned. That bomb on exercise sounds particularly interesting.

 

[Deleted member]

read my article Drastic Improvement. i hear it's really good.

 

[MookieRah]

He is confusing learning the playbook with learning decision making.

Well in the sense of how I worded it in that post, yeah, I did say I simplified the concept there though. But, playing lvl 7 computers in this way has increased my ability to make decisions based on reaction against human opponents by quite a bit. By internalizing those core concepts of solid play that I mentioned, it increases ones awareness and it's much easier to make on the fly decisions that are not dictated by instinct. It does a lot to free your mind from worrying about all that, and you are then able to focus more on other things, like how to create an openings with tricky movement for example.

 

[MT_]

I disagree with the notion that you should avoid shielding as much as possible. Shielding is a very important mixup in many situations that forces opponents to do things like delay their aerials. Run up shield comes to mind. I think the key here is to be very deliberate and specific in choosing when to shield, but it's not something you should avoid like the plague because shield is actually really powerful IMO.

Also, this is probably incredibly scrubby but am I the only one who thinks that reverse ledge dashing is inherently a very campy tactic? Something about doing a 0-risk ledge stall and hoping your opponent does something dumb that you can capitalize on just screams M2K planking the ledge. I recognize I'm a scrub for being hesitant to incorporate reverse ledge dashing for this reason, but I feel like everyone on here is getting super hyped up about a campy tactic. I guess the way you jump forward to do it suggests you might attack or try to take stage, and that would make it different from simply shino stalling, but how different is it really? If M2K mastered reverse ledge dash with Marth and spammed it during matches and relied on it to get openings, I feel like people would start hating it. I do admit it feels pretty cool to do though.

 

[Xyzz]

Nobody is anywhere near close to being actually invincible throughout the whole duration of the haxdash, so it's really not zero risk.
And you don't have to use it to be campy and wait for your opponent to screw up. It's a very nice option that helps Marth's rather limited ways to get up from the ledge. You don't have to spam it waiting for your opponent, but just doing it once or twice will force them to respect your ledge dash a lot more. They can't just auto pilot something safe'ish on the spot of Marth's landing and see whether he managed to actually hit his narrow timing window (on ledge invincibility lasting through the landing lag) or be quite okay because he's just going to shield / roll anyways (or maybe their hit just pushes Marth back off again). If they do that and Marth decided to actually pull back, he might be able to punish their ending lag with a lh fair or sth... I mean, if you see a space animal getting onstage with a ledge dash, you still have no idea what to expect. He has tons of offensive options in addition to the defensive ones. Marth doesn't, so if you see his ledge dash, it's still quite possible to react accordingly.

Of course, if you were perfect on ledgedash you could abuse it to stall (it's much harder to do than shino stalls), but that'd just be one way to use it. The mixup between normal ledgedashes and haxdashes is probably impossible to react to, because they do look super similar right till the very end and have different "counters", so it can very well be used to make coming back to the stage a bit easier. So maybe you can actually skip a lot of planking

 

[Dr Peepee]

it's about how you use it. The way I use it allows Marth to get back onstage *shrug*

 

[Beat!]

If M2K mastered reverse ledge dash with Marth and spammed it during matches and relied on it to get openings, I feel like people would start hating it

This doesn't bother me at all, and neither does shino stalling. Scrubs will always find something to hate on anyway. Trying to please them will just be detrimental to your progress.

Besides, even if I did have an issue with ledge stalling, I think this

it's about how you use it. The way I use it allows Marth to get back onstage *shrug*

is more accurate anyway.

 

[MT_]

They can't just auto pilot something safe'ish on the spot of Marth's landing and see whether he managed to actually hit his narrow timing window (on ledge invincibility lasting through the landing lag) or be quite okay because he's just going to shield / roll anyways (or maybe their hit just pushes Marth back off again). If they do that and Marth decided to actually pull back, he might be able to punish their ending lag with a lh fair or sth... I mean, if you see a space animal getting onstage with a ledge dash, you still have no idea what to expect. He has tons of offensive options in addition to the defensive ones. Marth doesn't, so if you see his ledge dash, it's still quite possible to react accordingly.

This is kind of what I meant by the opponent screwing up. Not just like a silly technical error, but the opponent trying to punish something that's essentially unpunishable. To me, it seems that the only reason that you actually gain anything from reverse ledge dash is because your previous attempts to take stage were predictable in some manner. It's something I've noticed in my own play; every time I grab the ledge I immediately make some action to get back onto the stage. If I do some sort of stall (like double jump regrab) out of frustration of not being able to get back on, then I usually have a higher success rate in getting back onto the stage. It's probably because my opponent has been punishing me for doing predictable things, which in turn makes his own actions a the ledge more predictable (because it's been working in the past). But I think the inherent problem isn't that we're not stalling enough or that we're not incorporating reverse ledge dashes; I think it's more than we're not good enough at mixing up our returns to the stage. And I think the more beneficial solution in the long run to that is to keep working on our mixups and reacting to our opponents spacing against the ledge; NOT to start doing these stalls.

it's about how you use it. The way I use it allows Marth to get back onstage *shrug*

The way M2K uses shino stalling allows Sheik to get back onstage too. After losing many stocks, people eventually decide to swallow their pride and admit that they aren't going to outplay M2K at the ledge, so they just take center stage and leave the ledge open for M2K to get back onstage (once you've made it clear that you're not coming the ledge anymore).

This doesn't bother me at all, and neither does shino stalling. Scrubs will always find something to hate on anyway. Trying to please them will just be detrimental to your progress.

I made a case for using stalling being detrimental to progress earlier in this post, but unfortunately I think I'm still a scrub . Well, I don't have a problem with other people stalling against me, even in excessive amounts (it's a welcome challenge to overcome), but my scrubby attitude is going to make me try my best to NOT use it lol.

 

[MookieRah]

I think it's more than we're not good enough at mixing up our returns to the stage. And I think the more beneficial solution in the long run to that is to keep working on our mixups and reacting to our opponents spacing against the ledge; NOT to start doing these stalls.

Yeah, well, except for that fact that hax dashing actually is a mixup. Also, as stated, Marth has limited options from the ledge. Hax dashing gives him another viable option with numbers of uses. Not having that would be a larger blow to people who don't actually want to stall.

Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it possible to regrab the ledge over and over with full invincibility? This would be way, way, way easier to do and has less of a chance to kill you if you mess up your timing.

The way M2K uses shino stalling allows Sheik to get back onstage too. After losing many stocks, people eventually decide to swallow their pride and admit that they aren't going to outplay M2K at the ledge, so they just take center stage and leave the ledge open for M2K to get back onstage (once you've made it clear that you're not coming the ledge anymore).

I don't understand your reasoning. You just made an argument that is greatly in favor of stalling here. You just said that M2K's mastery of the ledge game not only lets him get back on the stage, but allows him to pick up more KOs. So in this example you simply undermine your own argument which surmises that people just aren't good enough with ledge mixups.

 

[MT_]

Yeah, well, except for that fact that hax dashing actually is a mixup. Also, as stated, Marth has limited options from the ledge. Hax dashing gives him another viable option with numbers of uses. Not having that would be a larger blow to people who don't actually want to stall.

I have to think more on this, but to me Hax dashing is a stall disguised by an approaching high ledge hop. If both players are playing optimally, I feel like Hax dashing does not actually contribute to Marth's ability to get onto the stage because 1) Hax dashing is essentially impossible to punish anyway and 2) you don't truly gain anything from Hax dashing unless you managed to provoke a stupid action from your opponent (which is why I prefaced with "if both players are playing optimally").

I said earlier than it is probably a more powerful stall because of how its beginning resembles a ledgehop aerial or regular ledgedash, but I don't think that changes the fact that it's still only a stalling tactic. Ideally you'd want to be proficient at getting on the stage without needing to stall.

Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it possible to regrab the ledge over and over with full invincibility? This would be way, way, way easier to do and has less of a chance to kill you if you mess up your timing.

Perfect hax dashing is invincible. I don't think dropping->DJ regrab is invincible, though Marth's ledgegrab box thing in relation to his hurtbox makes it so that it's still really safe to do. I could be wrong though.

I don't understand your reasoning. You just made an argument that is greatly in favor of stalling here. You just said that M2K's mastery of the ledge game not only lets him get back on the stage, but allows him to pick up more KOs. So in this example you simply undermine your own argument which surmises that people just aren't good enough with ledge mixups.

Yeah this argument does favor stalling here. I guess I'm just saying that stalling in any amount puts you on the slope toward degenerative planking like M2K does where you effectively void the ledge game altogether instead of outplaying your opponent at the ledge.

 

[Xyzz]

Like it has been stated: Marth on the ledge is limited. Which in turn makes getting back on immediately a rather punishable thing. It might very well be, that you're getting punished not because you are not mixing it up enough, but because Marth as a character doesn't have the capabilities to mix it up enough.

mixing up timings of when you are actually doing something is amazing in this game. Your opponent can be perfectly sure of what you're going to do; if he can't get a read on WHEN you are doing it he often can't get a punish. (this applies to a lot of situations, not just getting back on stage)

hax dashing is a great mixup because it's pretty indistinguishable from a regular ledge dash until it's too late to react (ledge drop>dj regrabs have a fairly distinct look, and people might realize from how low you go, what you are going to do), but requires a completely different response from your opponent to be beaten.
And if he can't go into preemptive, laggy (and therefore risky) things near the ledge, because he fears to fall for a reverse ledge dash and get punished, your ledge dash gets a good bit better. (i think it's fairly obvious, but if you think it's a logical leap that needs more justification, tell me )

also: no character in this game can do ledgedrop > rejump regrabs while staying invincible the whole time... thankfully :D

 

[Bones0]

also: no character in this game can do ledgedrop > rejump regrabs while staying invincible the whole time... thankfully :D

Ganon.

 

[Xyzz]

no relevant character in this game can do ledgedrop > rejump regrabs while staying invincible the whole time... thankfully


Urgh, admittedly I stopped bothering after checking the top8 and just assumed that this would be something no dev team ever would allow to happen in some game.

 

[Beat!]

no relevant character in this game can do ledgedrop > rejump regrabs while staying invincible the whole time... thankfully

(Credit to Kadano/Magus)

 

[Xyzz]

I uhh... need to run outside. Right now. Because uhh...

and i was so sure about that... :x

 

[Deleted member]

i hope you guys are flossing every day.

 

[knightpraetor]

so how tight is the frame window to perform falcon's perfect stall? you can't expect to be frame perfect on the drop from the ledge all the time, but if you have three frames of leeway it might be feasible to stall under the lava even.

 

[MT_]

Like it has been stated: Marth on the ledge is limited. Which in turn makes getting back on immediately a rather punishable thing. It might very well be, that you're getting punished not because you are not mixing it up enough, but because Marth as a character doesn't have the capabilities to mix it up enough.

This is obviously speculative from both ends of the argument. We can all agree that Marth has a disadvantage from the ledge though. I'm not sure we can conclude that he absolutely loses in every situation, and that there isn't some RPS that Marth can play. Keep in mind that Marth has a huge ass sword. At low percents where everything Marth does is CCable I can see an argument for Marth not being able to win this part of he game ever, but I don't think there's enough evidence to suggest that Marth can't get on without stalls.

mixing up timings of when you are actually doing something is amazing in this game. Your opponent can be perfectly sure of what you're going to do; if he can't get a read on WHEN you are doing it he often can't get a punish. (this applies to a lot of situations, not just getting back on stage)

This is very true. You don't need Hax dashing to do this though, and in fact Hax dashing is a highly predictable/inefficient way to control the timing of your return to the stage. The method of exactly controlling you return to the stage would be to simply wait on the ledge and do nothing. If your opponent was making moves to punish an immediate return to the stage and you waited instead, then you won that little exchange (dependent of course on how hard your opponent committed to the punish).

hax dashing is a great mixup because it's pretty indistinguishable from a regular ledge dash until it's too late to react (ledge drop>dj regrabs have a fairly distinct look, and people might realize from how low you go, what you are going to do), but requires a completely different response from your opponent to be beaten.

Like I said before, no one should be aiming to 'beat' Hax dashes in the first place... Hax dashes should be addressed by using a low-risk (low-lag) move that would hit a ledgedash. So essentially, cover Hax dashing and ledge dashing the same way. For Falco it'd probably be laser or ftilt; for Marth it'd be dtilt.

And if he can't go into preemptive, laggy (and therefore risky) things near the ledge, because he fears to fall for a reverse ledge dash and get punished, your ledge dash gets a good bit better. (i think it's fairly obvious, but if you think it's a logical leap that needs more justification, tell me )

I think preemptive, laggy things near the ledge can and should be punished without the use of Hax dashing. I dunno. If you grab the ledge and Falco starts charging a forward smash (preemptive, risky) thinking you're going to ledge dash into it, I suppose Hax dashing is like an "abort" button once you've already jumped and see that you're about to get hit. I think waiting on the ledge or even rolling into the stage to get behind him and have stage control.


I guess as I break down my complaints with Hax dashing that it's not sooo bad. I mean I've practiced it and used it on occasion (I have an idea for using it in edgeguarding in Marth dittos). I just think that the gains from Hax dashing are sort of short-term wins as the things that get punished by Hax dashing usually stem from some mistake by the opponent. Your opponent should never really be doing preemptive, risky things at the ledge in the first place. As we approach a more ideal and optimal play, I feel like Hax dashing ends up being nothing more than a stall.

MEH

Time to not post anything in the Marth boards for another few months.

 

[MookieRah]

The key point to realize is that Marth's frame perfect invincible hax dash is pretty ****ing hard to do, and I would say due to the timing and inputs required, is humanly impossible to do for too long. It also has the inherent problem that if you **** it up, it's likely you just air dodged off the stage to your death. I don't think we will ever see Marth's performing this trick degenerately as a stalling tactic.

 

[Kadano]

so how tight is the frame window to perform falcon's perfect stall? you can't expect to be frame perfect on the drop from the ledge all the time, but if you have three frames of leeway it might be feasible to stall under the lava even.

This post by Magus explains why there is 0 leniency on the ledge drop. His list of characters who can invincibly ledgestall just with the midair jump lacks Falcon, but apart from that everything should be correct.

Also, the hardest part about the ledgedashstall both for Falcon and for Marth is dropping at the first frame possible. I counted the frames of M2K vs Hax at Justice 2 and there were 3 times Hax did it with complete intangibility.
The rest of the inputs is a bit harder for Marth as he has less leniency on the airdodge input. Also, fastfalling for more than one frame delays the waveland so much that continuous intangibility is lost.

I wrote a post about this a few months ago, but I understand it much better now, so I will probably elaborate on that with some gifs soon.

Edit: Removed the frame list because some of it was wrong. I will write about it as soon as I get everything right.

 

[Bones0]

You do have to return the control stick to neutral before you press down, though.

Are you sure? I feel like I've reverse ledgedashed before in such a way that my airdodge angle input doubled as a FF because I slid off from the waveland within the 3 frame FF buffer window. Maybe I was just resetting to neutral out of habit though. Or perhaps you can angle the airdodge and from that angle simply roll the stick further South to activate the FF without having to reset to neutral?

 

[Deleted member]

Time to not post anything in the Marth boards for another few months.

what are you, me?

i think this is a pretty good read actually.

 

[Kadano]

Are you sure? I feel like I've reverse ledgedashed before in such a way that my airdodge angle input doubled as a FF because I slid off from the waveland within the 3 frame FF buffer window. Maybe I was just resetting to neutral out of habit though. Or perhaps you can angle the airdodge and from that angle simply roll the stick further South to activate the FF without having to reset to neutral?

You are right, it is possible to do that. I made assumptions too quickly. It’s hard for me wording things in a macroscopical paradigm when there are so many microscopical dependencies. For example, the threshold on diagonal southeast angles between those angles that trigger fastfall and those who don’t is approximately the same as the variance between different controllers – the octagonal’s southeast notch hardly ever corresponds to the 315° angle, so if your control stick is shifted upwards slightly, that notch might trigger an angle you can’t fastfall with.

Also, the initial tests I did with a controller that has a control stick that’s shifted downwards a bit and I forgot that I can’t generalize these results. I personally prefer having such a control stick for Marth because it makes pivot dtilt and reverse ledgedashes easier. Having a completely neutral and “perfect” control stick delays the first frame you can waveland on by ~3-5 frames, depending on midair jump timing.
But of course I can’t assume every Marth player who wants to improve his ledgedashstall has such a controller (although it’s not too hard to mod it that way, which should be legal considering it’s within the natural variance).

To achieve base knowledge I can then use to make assumptions about the input order and angles, I am now indexing control stick values for ledgedrop and fall options like I did earlier with shield options. I will report back later when I’ve figured this all out.

It would help me a lot if you could tell me how you (and everyone else reading this) do or attempt reverse ledgedashes. Do smash the stick into the SE notch when you waveland or do you use an angle that’s more at SSE?

 

[CyberZixx]

I think Haxdashing has potential for edgeguarding linear recoverys such as Marth and the Mario's. I am not good enough at Hax Dashing to implement it yet however.

 

[Bones0]

It would help me a lot if you could tell me how you (and everyone else reading this) do or attempt reverse ledgedashes. Do smash the stick into the SE notch when you waveland or do you use an angle that’s more at SSE?

I press back to drop, smash the stick in the opposite direction as I jump. I try to get as far onto the stage as I can as quickly as I can, then I airdodge at the steepest angle possible towards the lip of the edge.

 

[Sacredtwin11]

I think Haxdashing has potential for edgeguarding linear recoverys such as Marth and the Mario's. I am not good enough at Hax Dashing to implement it yet however.

I sorta did that against a doc a while back. I was only really thinking about refreshing invincibility but it happened to trick him into up-bing early and I got the edgehog.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t93w5bOGceo#t=48s

 

[CyberZixx]

I sorta did that against a doc a while back. I was only really thinking about refreshing invincibility but it happened to trick him into up-bing early and I got the edgehog.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t93w5bOGceo#t=48s

Jealous. I am so bad at edgeguarding Mario, in in Melee where his recovery is not so good. Thanks for showing me it in practice. I will have to improve on it.

 

[Frame Perfect]

lolz haxdashing

i like how a thing that was never done to abuse invincibility frames became known as a thing done to abuse invincibility frames

 

[Kadano]

I press back to drop, smash the stick in the opposite direction as I jump. I try to get as far onto the stage as I can as quickly as I can, then I airdodge at the steepest angle possible towards the lip of the edge.

Okay, thanks! Does it sometimes happen to you that you accidentally do the airdodge straight downwards?

I think the gap between y=256-x and the line between ff and no-ff is wide enough so that all controllers in decent condition should fastfall when using the SE notch.

(I know this post probably doesn’t help anyone, so aside from offering obscure knowledge, this is mostly a reminder for myself what to do next.)

 

[Bones0]

Okay, thanks! Does it sometimes happen to you that you accidentally do the airdodge straight downwards?

I pretty much never accidentally airdodge straight down. When I mess up, it's because I airdodge too early or not at a steep enough angle (it's hard to tell which).

 

[Sacredtwin11]

Jealous. I am so bad at edgeguarding Mario, in in Melee where his recovery is not so good. Thanks for showing me it in practice. I will have to improve on it.

I mean, the rest of the game my edgeguarding/everything was pretty awful and I lost that set. But that one edge guard was sorta interesting to me.

 

[Purpletuce]

Some people have some interesting ideas on ledgework. I don't think Haxdashing should be something you should try to abuse with complete invulnerability, it just is a way of delaying, and baiting out a response from the opponent (even if it is just getting them to do something simple like SH back).

I think it works pretty similar to the DJ ledgestall, but is more difficult to perform, but allows you to keep a DJ and refresh your side B if you get hit. It also makes it so your character goes over the ledge and makes it harder for your opponent to react to when you wavedash in.

 

[MookieRah]

So I FINALLY have some videos. This past weekend was TVspelsjam and I came second. Zutnop, the victor, played incredibly well and capitalized hard on all my bad habits. He totally deserved his win, but I still feel that I gave this one to him because some of my mistakes are things I could have, AND knew during the match, that I needed to fix.

The matches start at around 3 minutes in: http://www.twitch.tv/headquarterstream/b/467915422 It's Swedish commentary btw.

The first set is winners finals against myself and another Marth Zut. The second set is against a Sheik player Kenny which started off with Link for some reason... not sure why. Lastly it's grand finals again against Zut. I'm pretty much losing the entire way but at the very end I start picking up wins and it looks like I might pull out and make it to the next set... but then fail : (.

Against Link:
Not much to say here, I did a good job of dealing with Link. I would like to know if there are better ways to deal with the projectiles than I did. The idea I had during the match was to full hop whenever I saw the animation for a boomerang or bomb toss, and if I was able to I'd swat it with a rising fair. From there I just sorta spaced my approach so that I would land far enough away from him to not get countered, but too close for him to be able to get away from me to restart the spam.

Against Sheik:
I passively watched this part of the vid so I didn't take notes directly after seeing them. I think I did fairly well abusing CC at early percents against Sheik and I started off incredibly strong here. I found though that towards the middle of the match I was having trouble with dash attacks. Again, my dash dance isn't as good as it could be here. I also noticed that I was caught by a lot of dash attacks from my empty short hops. In any case, I feel that if I was up against a Sheik that was on my level that I wouldn't have done so hot. So while I won this match, there is a lot for me to learn in this matchup.

Against Marth:
I now know how inexperienced I am in this matchup. I need help with platform and juggling stuff and anti-Marth spacing. I really need to learn how to dash dance better against Marth, because I think that will really allow me to take more wins. There are a lot of other technical things I need to work on, but I list out that stuff below. What do you guys things I should focus on?

Here are things I know I need to work on:
1: Work on juggles and abuse platforms better. Zut consistently gets more out of his uthrows than me.
2: I need to learn the proper spacing to not get counter hit by Marth in mid combo. I think the bomb training will help a lot here.
3: My grab game is too obvious. I need to move through my opponent and go for grabs and etc.
4: I need to improve my dash dance spacing against those blasted dash attacks. It's like I'm always perfectly spaced to get hit by them.
5: I should never attempt to dair a grounded opponent after falling a long distance, a least not without landing behind them, and I shouldn't short hop dair out of sheild as much.
6: I need to not DI on the ledge so that I eat smashes all the time. This is the easiest thing for me to have fixed during the match and I didn't, which is very frustrating to me.
7: I need to not accidentally do the jump up from the ledge crap. I do that a lot and I never intend to.
8: I really shouldn't ever approach with an aerial... I need to play matches with friends where I don't allow myself to jump or something.
9: I empty short hop a lot for... not much of a reason. I really need to quit doing that.
10: I forward smash too much from neutral. Really bad idea, but it's a bad habit I picked up from playing people that are below my skill level.
11: I need to use dtilt better than I currently do.
12: I need to practice recovering more. Along with the bad DI from grabs this gave up a lot of kills. If I grabbed a ledge, I usually got back on.

 

[AprilShaw]

Alright Mookie, just a disclaimer, I'm not an amazing player, and I've only recently started maining Marth. But I've been focusing on the Marth ditto myself lately, so maybe I can help.

vs Zutnop:
4:54: That fsmash was cheeky haha
5:10: While this was silly looking, basically what you did was completely waste your invincibility and then run in and give him frame advantage. During your invincibility is the only time you can really straight up approach, and you should do your best to get momentum back in your favor during it after every stock. As for the spot dodges, I'm a firm believer that if you don't know exactly what to do with a spot dodge, don't do it. In other words, don't rely on it as an escape or be like "crap I'm in a bad situation". You can use it to punish Marth's grab, but you really gotta be expecting it.
Your whole 3rd stock, he was spot dodging like crazy. You went for a grab in the same way a few times, by just walking up to him and grabbing as soon as you got in range. He started predicting that on this stock and really punished you for it.
6:28: Unfortunate gimp, but that's what happens when you get grabbed by the edge haha.

Overall, I think your biggest problems in this game were being impatient, and not really dash dancing properly. For the former, you just need to kind of slow things down a bit. It's hard in Marth dittos since they're so brutal, but it's very much a bait and punish type of game. If you find yourself getting punished for something, in your case running up and grabbing, you need to stop doing it fast and find another option. As for the dash dancing, a lot of your dash dances were super quick and short, and didn't really get you anything. Dash dancing in Marth dittos is as much about controlling space as it is baiting out an attack. It's a little abstract but try to push your opponent out to the corner of the stage with your dash dance.

As an aside, mix in more dtilts/ftilts into your game. Dtilt is just great, everyone uses it and talks about it, no need to cover that. Ftilt is like all the fun of fsmash without the commitment, just make sure you're tipping it and making use of the IASA frames.

7:00: Be careful when you jump, you have to watch for what he's gonna do. You could have slapped him with an fair, or if he was going for dash attack, double jump and waveland on the platform. It looks like you were planning to empty SH > grab, which is definitely a good mixup, but you did it right after a SH f-air which made it a little more obvious.

7:05: Even though you missed the grab, you did a good job avoiding the dash attack. This guy panic spot dodges a LOT on his misses, once you get better at handling that, you'll get yourself a lot of free grabs.

7:11: Coming straight down on a marth is rough. You at least want to land behind him, and you have to be really prepared with counter/fair/dair to handle whatever he's throwing at you. His spacing was good though, he forced you to either land in front of him or on the platform if you came down with an aerial.

7:14: You jumped again without a real plan. Going for the platform is ok, but if you're doing it, waveland and get off ASAP. I think staying on the ground and going for a grab/dtilt mixup, or just straight dashing through him, would have been better.

7:32: I might stop pointing these out, but again, jumping for no reason. That jump ended up costing you a whole stock.

8:07: Perfect. This is the first time you really went to punish his spot dodge.

Couple random notes here, just remember that your goal is never percent as Marth, it's positioning. You want to, ideally, get them off stage, or if you can't do that, get them above you. There were a handful of times where you gave Zutnop exactly what he wanted by jumping, and you got punished for it. Keep your feet on the ground as much as possible. Also, when getting up from the ledge, chances are you're gonna die anyways, but mix in neutral getup, ledge jump (the really high one, not dropping and jumping off the ledge), and wavelanding on/hax stalling. If you can do the hax stall, you can also mix in side B stall (just drop with back and immediately side B towards the stage) since it refreshes your side B. One of my favorite mixups against Marth is jump up > waveland off > immediately neutral stand up > grab/dtilt/ftilt. It's tough for Marth to punish because none of his moves are very meaty (which means they don't have many active frames) and, if you do it perfectly, you're only vulnerable for 2 frames at the very end of the stand up.

vs Kenny, I can't really help you here. I don't know anything at all about how to play Sheik vs Marth, from either side of the matchup. Hopefully someone else will talk about it here.

vs Zutnop again:
A lot of your issues here are the same as before, so I'm not gonna go through and specifically point every mistake out. I will say that, you played the neutral game a lot better this time around. But once you got a grab, you never got anything off of it. At real low percents, obviously fthrow chain grab or fthrow into fsmash are really good, at mid %s, up throw juggling is where it's at, whether with uairs or fairs or utilts. At real high %s, like 100%+, you can uthrow and go for a kill setup, but I like to just downthrow and try to tech chase with a tilt/fsmash/nair. Honestly though, don't sweat missing combos like that, just find this zutnop guy at the next tourney and play friendlies with him for a few hours and you'll learn how to combo Marth. One thing I will say is, try to tip all your aerials, I know that's easier said than done but it's something to think about while playing.

Random aside: I don't think you dash attacked once in any of the games. It's really strong in the ditto, so at the very least, you want to make them afraid that you COULD use it on them.

And finally, one thing that helps me a lot, especially in Marth dittos, is to always be consciously aware of whether I have the advantage, they have the advantage, or if it's neutral. If it's neutral, I tend to play things a bit safer, and when I have the advantage, I'll bust out wacky stuff every now and then to keep my opponent on their toes or mess with their DI.

Hope you find this useful. Honestly I think you just need some more experience in the matchup, even by the end of GFs you were doing a lot better with your punishes.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Reverse ledgedashes are godlike and if you aren't doing them already, you should be.

I think Haxdashing has potential for edgeguarding linear recoverys such as Marth and the Mario's. I am not good enough at Hax Dashing to implement it yet however.

^yes