Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Frame Perfect]

Reading your discussions has pretty much shaped my whole development as a Marth main

compliment or insult

 

[Bones0]

What is the total frames of Marth's wavedash?

4 frames of jumpsquat, 10 frames of landing lag.

 

[Kadano]

I will play against Captain Falcon, Luigi and Ice Climbers in pools and I’m not really sure which stages are best or worst in these matchups. I’ll just write down my thoughts, please tell me where I’m wrong or where you think differently. Stages sorted in order best for me – worst for me:

CF: FoD, YS, PS, BF, FD, DL64
Luigi: FD, YS, PS, BF, FoD, DL64
ICs: YS, BF, PS, FD, FoD, DL64

 

[Deleted member]

CF looks right, maybe switch BF and FD but that's debatable and depends on how smart the falcon is (marth has a hard time dealing with platform camps that respect block simple swings).

Luigi i'd put PS over YS. there's a backbending curve for marth where you don't want the stage to be too big like DL 64 because duh but you also don't want to have no space to move yourself in that MU. give yourself some room to DD for easy upthrow conversions aka the bread and butter of marth vs generic characters.

ICs pretty much yup agree.

 

[Beat!]

I'm not a big fan of PS vs Falcon (I prefer both BF and FD over it), but PS is also my worst stage overall so maybe that's just me. I dunno, I just feel like if you're gonna give him that much room to run around you might as well just go to FD, where you don't have to deal with transformation jank which may not work out in your favour.

FoD is definitely great for you, but don't take CF there solely because of that. Make sure that you actually feel comfortable playing there. I'm mentioning FoD specifically because matches tend to play out a bit differently there and not everyone is used to dealing with those low, moving platforms.

 

[Xyzz]

I rather like BF as Marth vs Luigi, and don't think YS is that good against him.
Then again, I suck at setting up tipper fsmash combos, so my gameplan vs Luigi (or pretty much everybody that's not a space animal) is kind of "get him in the air. Keep hitting him, as he tries to land. Patiently repeat process till he dies, or I get some successful edge guard". Neither of which really has much benefit from near blast zones, and Luigi is really good at maneuvering YS and dying earlier to his **** is annoying :D

I suppose my list would be FD (greatest stage ever :D), PS, BF, YS, FoD, DL.

 

[Dark Lady]

4 frames of jumpsquat, 10 frames of landing lag.

Thank you

 

[Divinokage]

Ok so I learned that Pewpewu must be reading at least 5-6 steps ahead because I couldn't read him that much. >_< lol

 

[PCwizCube]

What's the point/advantage of doing shield stops? I noticed a commentor commending Pewpewu's use of it in this match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwiJ8jiluIA
Does it just give you minute spacing control since it slows down your momentum? And why do you need to do that though - couldn't you simply control the direction of your jump after dashing just by using the control stick?

 

[CyberZixx]

It allows full control over your jump that does not carry any of the extra momentum from dashing around. Allows greater control more more minute spacing as you said, which is always nice with this character. That said I don't like throwing out aerials in neutral like how PPU does but it can come in handy.

 

[Bones0]

You can stop quicker without having to commit to a jump immediately which can introduce a lot of cool timing mixups. It also gives you full momentum on your jumpback which can be pretty crucial for spacing. Try dashing away from an opponent and SH towards them doing a late bair. You can barely move back towards them at all before attacking. Now try it again with a shield stop before the jump and you will SH much further essentially giving you more range on your bair. Shield stopping only works during dash frames, remember. If you do it during a run it won't freeze your momentum (I think it slows your momentum a little faster but not nearly as much as a proper shield stop).

 

[Beat!]

When using shield stops for aerials, you're getting the same benefits you'd get from a pivot, but the execution is easier. As MM pointed out, PPU plays a relatively aerial-heavy neutral game, so shield stopping is beneficial for him, since it helps him space correctly.

 

[MookieRah]

A good way to get used to using shield stops is with Umbreon's idea regarding bomb training. It's a lot easier to space properly to not get exploded if you shield stop.

 

[DwightDL]

Okay, this is a really broad question, but what are the fundamentals for the Marth v. Shiek matchup?
I've been maining Marth for a few years and definitely have all the basics down. However, my Shiek practice has been basically none up until a couple months ago when a couple kids that I practice with started playing Shiek (and wrecking me...).

I struggle a lot on edgeguarding, especially if I can't get ledge. I usually end up waiting on stage and dashdancing into jcgrab or d-tilt or something.

Also, what are ideal throws? I usually do f-throw at 0, regrab, then an up throw to hopefully uair or utilt depending on di but nothing besides that first fthrow seems as guaranteed as I would like.

Thanks guys~

 

[Beat!]

I wrote a fairly long post about the Marth-Sheik matchup in the smashbros subreddit. I'll just copy paste it here:

Stay grounded. If there's any matchup that really exemplifies the "don't jump against grounded opponents" philosophy, it's Marth vs Sheik. Nair in particular is a move that you'll be punished for more often than not. Fair is a little more viable, but I'd still recommend being careful about using it. Your main tools in the neutral game should be a mix of dashdancing, walking, wavedashing, dtilting, and grabbing. Out of those, grabbing->upthrow is generally the main goal. The others are means to that end more than anything else:

• Dtilt makes it harder for Sheik to stay grounded and can lead to a grab sometimes.
• Wavedashing, walking and dashdancing are all used for regular spacing purposes.
• Dashdancing covers much more space than the other two, but it makes you unable to dtilt (unless you can pivot dtilt, which is extremely difficult to do consistently), which makes it more difficult to challenge Sheik.
• Walking is slower, but lets you do any move you want at any time, so it's a lot more versatile than dashdancing.
• Wavedashing lets you cover space faster than walking does, and leaves you with more options than dashdancing does, so it's a bit of a multi-purpose move. WD down -> dtilt is great because you can do it out of a dashdance and it's almost as fast as a pivot dtilt. WD back -> grab is a cookie cutter punish against predictable/poorly timed approaches (generally dash attack in Sheik's case).

Once you've gotten her into the air, you want her to stay there, because you have far more freedom in that position, and Marth's juggling game is ridiculous. You generally want to be right below her and juggle with well timed uairs and uptilts. Having Sheik diagonally above you is usually not really a big deal because you still have a massive positional advantage, but it does open up for fair/bair/needle shenanigans. If she's directly above you then the only attacking options she really has are nair and dair, both of which lose outright to both uair and uptilt.

Sheik will obviously do everything in her power to get down, so be aware of all the options she has at any given point. If you're too eager, a well-timed air dodge or DJ from her side can get her back on the ground and reset the position to neutral.

Speaking of her DJ, if you can bait it out and send her back up again before she lands, she should pretty much not be able to come down again at all for the rest of the stock (at least not without taking a ****-ton of damage first) as long as you time your juggling moves well. At some point you may want to start sending her off stage, but that largely depends on the situation, so it's hard to specific about it. As a rule of thumb, if a strong move (like a nair) will send her far enough to force her to use ub-B, go for it.

Ken combos and tipper fsmash finishers are also available, but they're far more DI/situation dependent than juggling, so view them as opportunities that you'll capitalize on when they arise, rather than something you need to try to force out of every combo. Marth's punishment game is a bit different from the other top characters in that regard.

Getting grabbed by Sheik blows, particularly in NTSC. There are a bunch of ways to reduce the damage dealt to you, such as mixing up your DI, DIing to a platform and tech/techroll unpredictably and so forth, but at the end of the day, the best advice is to avoid getting grabbed in the first place. As a rule of thumb, if you have several DI options and the choice is between 1. taking a lot of immediate damage but increasing your chances of resetting the position to neutral, and 2. reducing the amount of combo damage taken but remaining in a ****ty position, you generally want to do the former.

 

[Tee ay eye]

so i was playing against axe yesterday (fox/falco/pika)

and when that guy gets close to you, he will stick to you. getting him with DD grab is incredibly difficult because he's really good at
1) placing moves where your grab will be
2) not being in lag if you choose to keep dancing around him after he throws out aforementioned moves, so he can basically keep chasing you out of your dashdance (i don't quite understand how he does it; that guy is a ****ing wizard)

so after that, i decided to look for answers aside from DD grab, answers involving the sword. so i tried doing things like WD back -> ground move, but whenever i tried that, the setups were a little too slow because WD back is slower and a bit more telegraphed (and it's just not as precise as DD options), so he basically never got hit, and with me doing WD back, it'd usually end in him getting stage and putting me at awful stage position

so then i tried doing DD nair, and that actually kinda worked. it allowed me to hit him with my sword (rather than trying to grab), and it allowed me to do it seamlessly out of my dashdance (since it's hard to do ground moves out of DD without WDing or pivoting), which i guess was a necessity against someone who plays like axe and can punish the WD

does this violate the "no nair from neutral game" rule, or does it not count as neutral game since the opponent is making a bit of a commitment first?

 

[BTmoney]

I believe Umbreon said nair is a fantastic move when used properly. How is it used properly?

 

[Beat!]

I don't like speaking in absolutes when it comes to smash. I view "no nairs in neutral game" as a very solid rule, but I also think there are exceptions. I like using occasional shield stop nairs against aggressive Falcos, for example.

Then again, as you mentioned, I suppose it also depends on where exactly you draw the line for where the "neutral game" ends. My rule of thumb is to not use it against grounded opponents, and spacies and Pika jump a lot so I don't think you have to be quite as conservative with it against them.


@Blacktician
Nair is generally a very good move against airborne opponents, either as a finisher at higher percents or as a combo move against semi floaties (I usually prefer juggling with upair, though).

 

[Deleted member]

nair is very simple: if they aren't on the ground, and they can't outrange it, you're good.

edit: neutral basically always implies that your opponent is grounded or can react to your range in some way, but usually it's being grounded.

 

[Tee ay eye]

that's it?

and here i thought there were layers of badness to nair that i just didn't understand

 

[MookieRah]

I thought neutral was when your opponent was grounded and has enough stage to not limit his/her options. In any case, Umbreon, if you have time I think it's time for you to post another big awesome post that clarifies a few things you have said in the past.

 

[Deleted member]

it really is that simple though. nair is only bad because it is easily punishable compared to marth's other moves. if you take care to not be vulnerable to those punishments, nair is just a good combo move that i would encourage one to use. it's just also that removing those vulnerabilities means that you're never using it from neutral ever, because the only way to make sure that you're not vulnerable while using it is to have positional advantage. and really, you should never use any risky move from neutral because it's well...risky.

same goes for dash attack. i use dash attack- out of fthrow on DI away, and only occasionally. i still tell people to not use it in neutral, but out of a forward throw is not in neutral, but rather a position of advantage (after a conversion).

don't make the game theory out to be harder than it really is. treat the game with a holistic understanding rather than the sum of its pieces and you'll be able to transfer concepts to new situations with relative ease.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Nair is kinda small, has that thin hitbox and is pointed downward toward the ground. The strong hit also takes many frames to come out and is not a constant hitbox. These facts help explain why Nair is bad at neutral.

 

[Mahie]

No nair in neutral game can be expanded to "No jumping in the neutral game" by the way.

Unless like Umbreon says, they're airbone.

Or unless you can't dash away anymore (close to the ledge, etc), and then you will have to gamble on something like aerials, ground moves, etc. Regardless they're the one having the luxury to act 2nd so the goal is to surprise them.

(Or unless they don't have the horizontal speed to catch you, like retreating late fairs against Peach is good, obviously)

 

[Tee ay eye]

i mean

empty hops are pretty good

 

[Divinokage]

Well the way PPU was getting me in his nairs was when I jumped first and attempted to bair but he still got me out of it. If the opponent hasnt committed first then Nair is ass for sure.

 

[Dr Peepee]

top platform kage!!!

 

[Deleted member]

No nair in neutral game can be expanded to "No jumping in the neutral game" by the way.

Unless like Umbreon says, they're airbone.

Or unless you can't dash away anymore (close to the ledge, etc), and then you will have to gamble on something like aerials, ground moves, etc. Regardless they're the one having the luxury to act 2nd so the goal is to surprise them.

(Or unless they don't have the horizontal speed to catch you, like retreating late fairs against Peach is good, obviously)

I would say that choosing to go airborne against another aerial opponent could be a form of positional advantage.

I'll heavily consider your first statement for a few days though.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I like jumping in the neutral game sometimes. Drift Fair can be quite good as a mixup, and establishing a zone by jumping outside of a punishable range is solid imo. As a general rule I believe not jumping is great of course.

 

[Mahie]

Yeah always be wary of absolutes. It's more of a general guideline than anything else.

Marth especially is a character that tends to have to think really specifically rather than in big lines, but still.

But for instance, jumping outside of a punishable range can be done with dash dancing. And unlike jumping, it is non commital movement, meaning that you can interrupt it and change its direction/speed/characteristics at any given point.

Air movement is by nature limited by time. And since distance = speed*time, it's much easier to determine what the opponent can cover in function of how much time he has left airborne. The only way to change that is to double jump, and that's only a one-time thing.

It's risky in that regard, but remaining on the ground is not a dogma either.

 

[BTmoney]

I feel like I got better vs. Falco when I started jumping. But really only that MU

 

[Dr Peepee]

Using platforms or when close in that matchup isn't a bad idea. Otherwise wat

 

[Mahie]

Falco is one of those matchups in which I forbid myself to jump at all if possible. Same for Falcon. Fox I don't have enough experience yet.

 

[KayB]

Advice vs. Sheik?

 

[Beat!]

http://smashboards.com/threads/offi...rs-stuff-thread.118998/page-348#post-15911281

 

[Deleted member]

No nair in neutral game can be expanded to "No jumping in the neutral game" by the way.

I have been thinking about this. I did not come to any conclusion relevant to this statement. However, it did lead me to another conclusion.

I used to think that the optimal method was to "play to win". Then I moved to the idea of "play to learn" instead. Now I'm starting to think that the best way to play is "play so that both you and your opponent learn". It's not something I have refined in my head yet though.

I'll come back to this more when I come up with something more meaningful.

 

[Bones0]

Play to teach. New meta ****.

 

[oukd]

do you mean like...play to teach opponent to play optimal so that you can play to learn vs optimal play?
or teach them to play ****ty during a match/set so you have the edge lmao

 

[Tee ay eye]

so anyone who's looked at the marth boards in the past like.... 2 years knows that the craze is to uthrow and then try to abuse positioning indefinitely

which is incredibly easy to do when the opponent isn't good at escaping, has no jump, or tries to challenge you like an idiot

but what exactly do you do whenever the opponent doesn't give you an absolutely free punish opportunity? like, let's say they just drift away from you, and you're not comfortable reaching after them (because we all know what happens to marth when he reaches too far) and they just land on the ground again? do you just abuse the corner game from that point on?

 

[Heero Yuy]

A little late to be asking this... But what is shield stopping?

(First time here on Smashboards in over a month.)