Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
dropping through a platform from shielding
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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy
- Thread starter Cactuar
- Start date
Bones0
Smash Legend
If you shield during your dash animation (not a full run), all of your momentum is immediately cancelled. It can act as a more reliable way of pivoting, and it can also be used to adjust your spacing in ways that pivoting cannot. A common example is dashing forward to close in a minute amount, shield stopping, then jumping back with full momentum with a spaced fair. Trying to do the same input without the shield stop would not allow you to drift as far back with the fair which could leave you open to an enemy's OoS option.
That's what I thought it said at first too. XD
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
hurr durr
i'm bad at reading
should've just reacted
i'm bad at reading
should've just reacted
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
I think there is merit to this. I'm teaching an entirely new group where I'm at and they are improving rapidly. I talk to them mostly about game theory stuff like what is posted here, and give them lists of things to work on tech wise. Often during matches I think aloud and talk about patterns they have and try to get them to think aloud as well. With the open discourse they can really understand where they mess up and why.
That said, I'm learning a lot too. When you switch your mindset from just focussing on your own learning you often don't have to explain yourself and have nobody questioning you about it. I've been stumped a few times by their questions, and even if my idea was correct I wasn't able to express it to them at the time. Going through and double checking has increased my understanding of this game, and it's definitely doing me wonders when it comes to understanding more mental aspects of the game and the psychology behind it.
In terms of improving, I think it's a very big plus to have people to teach. I honestly think that for true success you need all three:
Playing to win, playing to learn, and playing to teach. You need to refine each one, as they have different offerings that the others don't provide.
Beat!
Smash Master
I "play to teach" against players worse than I, "play to learn" against better players, and a mix of those two plus a bit of "play to win" against opponents that are on roughly the same level as I.
But in the event that it does happen, then
Yep. Not sure I'd use the word "optimal", but the concept remains the same so yeah. Basically, if your practice partners improve, so will you. Help yourself by helping others.
How often does this happen, though? Like, if you're right below them at first I don't see how they could drift away to the point where you're not comfortable following them (unless they go far off-stage I guess, but that's good for you anyway)
But in the event that it does happen, then
seems fine. Recognizing situations where you may not be able to keep them airborne and instead letting them land and immediately grabbing -> upthrowing them again is an integral part of juggling.
Max:
My optimal improvement came from playing to win, then spending time outside of matches thinking to learn. if I play someone much worse than myself I play to learn and have fun. I think there is a lot to consider with this type of issue imo.
TAI:
You make them burn those options(or just hit them if they don't). Putting sword or threat of sword between them and the ground is a great way to achieve this goal.
Will respond more lengthy as discussion continues =)
My optimal improvement came from playing to win, then spending time outside of matches thinking to learn. if I play someone much worse than myself I play to learn and have fun. I think there is a lot to consider with this type of issue imo.
TAI:
You make them burn those options(or just hit them if they don't). Putting sword or threat of sword between them and the ground is a great way to achieve this goal.
Will respond more lengthy as discussion continues =)
Mahie
Smash Lord
TAI could you try to describe the situations more accurately?
You seem to have very specific things in mind, saying the opponent is "good at getting away", so maybe more data would help us understand more.
You seem to have very specific things in mind, saying the opponent is "good at getting away", so maybe more data would help us understand more.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I kinda feel like this idea is the last thing I'm going to learn from this game. If I come up with something good I'll post it here.
Glitchy
Smash Cadet
Hi!
It would be nice if you guys could give me some general advice on the Peach and Falcon matchups since I struggle a lot against them.
It would be nice if you guys could give me some general advice on the Peach and Falcon matchups since I struggle a lot against them.
Beat!
Smash Master
Peach will attempt to pull turnips basically any time it's safe, and you don't want to let her do that. As long as she's grounded, try to stay within an area where you're close enough to be able to punish turnip pulls, but aren't directly threatened by her moves. Her go-to move for dealing with this spacing is dash attack. Always be prepared for it. It's fast, has deceptively long range and is a great combo starter. It will also sneak under your aerials more often than not so you don't want to be jumping all that much (the occasional fair has its merits, but for the most part just stay grounded). Getting her into the air is the main goal, and grab is the most sure-fire way of accomplishing that, but dtilts are also good for making her feel uncomfortable and getting her to float instead.
Once you've gotten her into the air (whether it's by upthrowing her or her going up there herself) you can be a lot more liberal with aerials. Fair's good against her float when she's diagonally above you because around there is where the hitbox starts and the move just plain outranges her. Don't be reckless though. It's easy to fall for her fade-back bait-> fair if you don't pay attention (or if you play against Armada... >_>).
Uair's amazing when she's above you. When I say amazing, I mean she's not getting down if you're patient and observant and time them well. If she tries air dodging past the uair, generally what you want to do is either uptilt or grab->upthrow depending on the situation, and then just continue juggling.
Nair is pretty cool if you can connect it when she's airborne at low percents, because it usually sets up a solid combo (follow-up moves include another nair!!!). In most situations I prefer fair or uair, though.
I find fthrow and dthrow to be strictly inferior to uthrow in this matchup, but they're not completely useless. If you want to do the fthrow -> cover tech in place with nair and tech chase the other rolls à la M2K, then go ahead. It's not awful. Heck, against bad DI, they can lead to early tipper kills. I heavily prefer uthrow, though. Going for a DI-dependent 50/50 situation just doesn't seem worth it to me when you could be putting yourself in the most positionally advantageous position this matchup has to offer.
On average, she'll live longer, percentage-wise. You'll simply have to accept that. It's just how the match will play out. Don't try to overcompensate for it by trying to force early kills with fsmash/dair. There will ocasionally be opportunities for those, but don't shape your entire neutral/punish game around that. Instead, focus on juggling. It may feel a bit frustrating to just hit her back up over and over again without killing her, but realize that it's just as (if not more) frustrating to be on the receiving end of a juggle.
Tipper uptilt kills reasonably early so don't overlook it.
As for edgeguarding, be patient. Always cover the low options (mainly with dtilt), because it's generally easier for Peach to get back that way. Going high should for the most part just result in you hitting her back off again.
If she's floating a bit away from the stage, don't be afraid of being a bit pseudo-aggressive with jumps. It forces her to stay back (unless she wants to take an aerial in the face), prevents her from cutting corners and generally makes her more uncomfortable.
I think that covers most of it. I'll do Falcon tomorrow.
Niko45
Smash Master
I love watching that kid play. His nair game is so tight.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Well look I trust my memory and my eyes, usually I can see everything what my opponent is trying to do but when a prodigy comes in like that or someone better than me... It's very difficult hehe.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
@pp/mahie: i'm not actually sure. i'll need to make sure to look for that the next time i fight against taj
because uthrow feels useless against that guy
he also says that uthrow is overhyped, but i don't know if that's him being a wizard that can see holes in uthrow or both of us having a mutual inability to use it perfectly
or some gray combination of both
because uthrow feels useless against that guy
he also says that uthrow is overhyped, but i don't know if that's him being a wizard that can see holes in uthrow or both of us having a mutual inability to use it perfectly
or some gray combination of both
Mahie
Smash Lord
@Beat : I think you should create a new thread and copy/paste that Peach guide there. It's a really good "Layer 1" guide for the matchup, imho. Of course going deeper and situation specific would take more time, but at least the core is there, and it's well put.
@Tai : Was it Marth dittos or in general? I don't play the ditto often but last time I tried to uthrow juggle and it didn't turn out that well tbh. I'm not sure whether I was just doing it wrong either, I don't have much XP in it.
@Tai : Was it Marth dittos or in general? I don't play the ditto often but last time I tried to uthrow juggle and it didn't turn out that well tbh. I'm not sure whether I was just doing it wrong either, I don't have much XP in it.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
@Beat: What Mahie said, but also grab that Sheik writeup you did also. I think you could also do a quick Marth ditto writeup from all the info you gave me (which worked btw, I played Zutnop yesterday and I bested him quite definitively).
Beat!
Smash Master
As with most matchups, staying grounded is good. However. Falcon's a heavily aerial-based character, so there's a lot more room than usual for using aerials yourself. Nair and Fair are both good for interrupting his movement and stuffing approaches. You want to be a bit careful if he stays grounded, though, because Falcon's side-B is similar to Peach's dash attack in that it's pretty good at sneaking under aerials, and it sets up combos (and I probably don't have to tell you that Falcon's combo game on Marth is pretty devastating).
Dashdancing is very valuable for both characters in this matchup. Falcon benefits a ton from having lots of room to work with but kinda sucks when he's cornered, and a lot of Falcons like to wait for you to swing (or generally commit to something) and punish you, so you want to gradually close in on him so he either has to give up stage presence or attack. Dtilt is decent in this matchup, but it's not as super annoying and safe as it is in many other matchups, since Falcon is fast and will be jumping a lot.
It's hard to get stuff out of uthrow at very low percents (if it doesn't put him on a platform) since Falcon's so heavy, and fthrow doesn't knock him over so I like dthrow. The techchase is pretty easy, and a cornered Falcon is easy to deal with in general. At mid percents I go for uthrow all the way, though (unless one of the others sets up an easy edgeguard).
Once you've gotten a combo started it's generally pretty easy to keep it going. It's easy to chain several uairs, and there's generally lots of room for you to decide exactly when you want to start carrying him off stage.
Uthrow -> tipper connects at around 50-60-ish and is a pretty good option. Going for a fair/uair combo starter instead will usually yield similar results so you once again have a decent amount of freedom.
If he's recovering high (or basically anything that isn't low), weak fair -> fsmash is amazing. If he's recovering low it's a little trickier. If he's coming from far off stage you can usually just dtilt him and be fine. However, if he's close to the stage he can sneak under it if he's timing his up-B well. Going off-stage instead runs the risk of getting hit by a quick DJ -> aerial, but on the other hand it's a completely free edgeguard if he's not able to punish it that way. Whether you should stay on-stage or run off depends on the situation, and what you think the Falcon expects you to do. In any case, you should at least go off-stage sometimes to make sure Falcon always has to account for it. Basically, don't let him cut corners.
Haha thanks. As for Puff, I know a bunch of detail stuff (aside from the f/dthrow -> pivot shenanigans), and I have a decent amount of ideas, but I haven't had regular Puff practice for a long time now, so my understanding of the matchup is very unrefined (the neutral game in particular). I've talked a bit about the matchup with Mahie, and we're coming up with all these questions and ideas, but we haven't really been able to reach any conclusive answers. If anyone who's reading this feel they have a better understanding of the matchup I welcome them to do the write-up instead. If not, I can try it, but it's going to be more of a bullet point type of list rather than a full coverage of the matchup.
Overhyped in general or in Marth dittos?
Regardless, I'd be very interested in hearing his thoughts. Would you mind asking him to expand on it? Because I find lots of success with uthrow against Marth, but if one of the best Marth ditto players in the world explicitly think it's overrated then I might be missing something.
@Mahie/Mookie
Thanks, guys! I'll make a thread then, I guess. Also @Mookie, great to hear that it worked out!
Glitchy
Smash Cadet
Thank you Beat! This is amazing!
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Yeah, and I didn't do half bad against Random-Ness either, although he is still a good bit better than me. I even managed to take a win versus his Marth in a ditto as well, albeit we only had one match.
I don't see how this can be true, as putting your opponent above you is only beneficial for Marth. There are only a limited number of options your opponent can do in that situation, and Marth definitely has the upper hand. Still, I'd like to hear his thoughts on this as well.
Uthrow in Marth dittos is AMAZING
I'd need to see or hear a better description of what's going on before saying more though. I personally can get wonderful punishes on Uthrow pretty much every time if I'm decently focused.
I'd need to see or hear a better description of what's going on before saying more though. I personally can get wonderful punishes on Uthrow pretty much every time if I'm decently focused.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Sounds pretty simple to me, Uthrow him and then bait something or follow the other Marth because I'm pretty sure no matter what Marth throws from above, the Marth below has the advantage to punish that with Uair/Fair/Utilt. Or dash away from the move into grab maybe.
Niko45
Smash Master
Fthrowing to me just is too boom or bust. You either get a giant punish out of it or nothing + a counterattack. Uthrow may not always provide the big payday but the control alone is worth it to me.
I do think uthrow can come up pretty short at percents where it lofts them just below top plat, as they can just DJ waveland on and have a bunch of options going forward from there. The key for uthrow is forcing a decision to either jump or fall without giving them a free top platform ideally.
I do think uthrow can come up pretty short at percents where it lofts them just below top plat, as they can just DJ waveland on and have a bunch of options going forward from there. The key for uthrow is forcing a decision to either jump or fall without giving them a free top platform ideally.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
I've been recently considering 'selling out' and maining Marth. In the ditto, I usually try to use Uthrow. My logic: I feel like at low-mid level gameplay, it is worthwhile to go for throw-> Fsmash mixups and try to trick them into getting tippered. It seems like at that level of play, players haven't developed their punish/juggle game enough to make Uthrow worth it. That is, the (ignoring reads/mindgames) 50/50 chance of the tipper is more worthwhile that the almost-certain chance of the juggle, because they don't get as much from the juggle. However, I think as you practice the Uthrow options, you should eventually make Uthrow worthwhile. Does that sound right?
Also, some of the people I play with tend to do F-throw -> F-throw regrab/Fsmash as a mix up. Should I be playing the DI guessing game? that is what I've been doing and it works fine. . . Not sure if there is a better option.
Also, some of the people I play with tend to do F-throw -> F-throw regrab/Fsmash as a mix up. Should I be playing the DI guessing game? that is what I've been doing and it works fine. . . Not sure if there is a better option.
CyberZixx
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2012
- Messages
- 1,189
On players with poor DI where you can tipper out of Fthrow, it is more sufficient sure. Even on those players i'd rather strive from optimal play and they can be practice dummies for it. In tournament where your only goal is to win, I could see the benefit, but why risk they adapt to it in tournament when greater options exist? I always strive for optimal play even if I know I will get less wins for it in the short term.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
Yeah, I feel like up throw doesn't give me as good of a return as cornering or forcing off stage. It could be my own limitations in my perception, or Tai's lack of ability to punish correctly, but I don't think up throw should be the primary option against the floaties. I think up throw is fantastic on Sheik though. Also,I'm not saying that up throw is bad by any means, it CAN lead to awesome follow up, but it seems largely dependent on what the other person is doing and how they can respond to your setup. (Also IF they can respond at all)
At the end of the day, do what gets you the most the results. Efficiency can also depend on personal ability.
At the end of the day, do what gets you the most the results. Efficiency can also depend on personal ability.
D
Deleted member
Guest
upthrow is good on floaties because you put them into a no-win position on correct DI regardless of your return. the alternative is forward throw > nothing and usually it gives the opponent some means to interact favorably with you after the forward throw. this is something that upthrow will never do. the advantage is more marginal a lot of the time, but it's better to take the guaranteed positional advantage rather than gamble on your opponent.
I definitely think this can be situational. Sure, if you think you can get that lower-mid percent kill on the floaty and throw them to the edge or offstage then go for it. I tend to say it more as a general rule since U throw can lead to juggles and combos in addition to edgeguards depending on the opponents' actions or responses to your actions.
Said differently, I would prefer Uthrow 90/100 times in the middle of the stage regardless of percent UNLESS(this is the 10 lol) it's a very specific type of platform situation or you can surprise the opponent(grabbing them without them DI reacting mainly) and get a pivot tipper on them etc.
My reason for Uthrowing almost always is because I can burn their options when I throw them upward and am pretty confident about that even on DL vs most characters. Combos happen pretty automatically after that point. It may feel like work to wait for them but with practice it is as natural and easy to go through their options as throwing them offstage imo and also with a greater chance of reward IN GENERAL. I say greater chance of reward because I feel there is no real safe place to escape from Marth's sword or challenge it if the opponent is in the air and Marth uses movement/jumps/sword/platforms well. Edge play I feel like it can be hard for Marth to stop walljump invincibility, some sweetspots and also fast vs very slow recoveries just because he's worse at putting out many moves like that so he can only commit to covering a few out of their many(in the case of walljumps etc at lower percents when reward could be higher). I am also worse at edgeguarding that juggling so perhaps that is my own flaw coming into the discussion *shrug* I still believe pretty strongly in this though.
Of course, when by the edge, I love throwing them off. Edgeguards are easier because they have less directions to deal with the sword from if they're high up. Reward can happen faster and I think that's easier(not usually safer imo.)
All this to say that I recognize that both the offstage/limited tech option plays are crucial for Marth's big punishment game, but when those opportunities aren't there(which I'd wager to say that unless you go for it a lot like M2K they aren't lol), you're almost always better off Uthrowing.
What do you guys think?
D
Deleted member
Guest
clowsui
Smash Legend
You have a problem, Max
Bones0
Smash Legend
I can't believe people still try to punish with uthrow. The optimal thing to do is grab release and outplay them over and over.
D
Deleted member
Guest
you're in the brawl back room, i don't want to hear it.
dudutsai
Smash Lord
Does anyone know the details of ledge cancelled up b? Is anyone able to do it consistently? I feel it would be cool to see
Niko45
Smash Master
Can anyone speak on Marth's options from the ledge, and how you go about deciding how to get off the ledge? I feel like when I watch Marth matches often times the outcome seems directly related to either being stuffed repeatedly coming off the edge or starting a big combo from the edge. I see m2k use a normal ol' ledge stand a lot. What makes this option so effective?
Beat!
Smash Master
Regular get-up when you're below 100% is really good because aside from being fairly fast, it has very few (I think it's 2) vulnerable frames.
My two go-to options are regular get-up and ledgedash. The problem with ledgedashing is that you'll generally get hit back off again if they anticipate it (since it doesn't have as much invincibility as when Fox does it), so I usually do a couple of reverse ledgedashes and/or regular ledge regrabs to make it more difficult to tell when I'm getting up.
I don't like coming up with an aerial unless I'm absolutely sure it will connect properly (like coming up with a fair or uair if your opponent is right above the ledge and has wasted their DJ in an attempt to bait you). Spaced ledgehop nair against CCing opponents is a bit of a guilty pleasure of mine, though.
My two go-to options are regular get-up and ledgedash. The problem with ledgedashing is that you'll generally get hit back off again if they anticipate it (since it doesn't have as much invincibility as when Fox does it), so I usually do a couple of reverse ledgedashes and/or regular ledge regrabs to make it more difficult to tell when I'm getting up.
I don't like coming up with an aerial unless I'm absolutely sure it will connect properly (like coming up with a fair or uair if your opponent is right above the ledge and has wasted their DJ in an attempt to bait you). Spaced ledgehop nair against CCing opponents is a bit of a guilty pleasure of mine, though.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Pretty sure it's 4 frames before you can get your shield up, but with the frequency of grab punishes at the ledge, it's effectively more.Regular get-up when you're below 100% is really good because aside from being fairly fast, it has very few (I think it's 2) vulnerable frames.
My two go-to options are regular get-up and ledgedash. The problem with ledgedashing is that you'll generally get hit back off again if they anticipate it (since it doesn't have as much invincibility as when Fox does it), so I usually do a couple of reverse ledgedashes and/or regular ledge regrabs to make it more difficult to tell when I'm getting up.
I don't like coming up with an aerial unless I'm absolutely sure it will connect properly (like coming up with a fair or uair if your opponent is right above the ledge and has wasted their DJ in an attempt to bait you). Spaced ledgehop nair against CCing opponents is a bit of a guilty pleasure of mine, though.
Niko45
Smash Master
I read somewhere that it's 2 frames of vulnerability before the first actionable frame. Does that mean it takes your shield 2 more frames to actually get up?
swanized
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2012
- Messages
- 60
I don't recall where I read this but I think Marth only has 2 vulnerable frames at the end of his ledgestand which makes it a pretty hard to punish option.
Beat!
Smash Master
They're frequent against ledgedashes, but I don't see/experience it that often against regular get-up. It's hard to be close enough to be able to run up and grab a get-up while at the same time staying outside of Marth's aerial range. Unless you shield or crouch, but those two have their own issues.
Also I heard the 2 frames thing from leffen and he sounded pretty certain about it. Would be cool if someone could confirm though. Get-up is really good in Marth dittos, regardless.
Mahie
Smash Lord
The other part of the question was regarding Shield Delay but I've never heard of such a thing (PSing would be way harder if it was delayed).Kadano said: