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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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Can anyone speak on Marth's options from the ledge, and how you go about deciding how to get off the ledge? I feel like when I watch Marth matches often times the outcome seems directly related to either being stuffed repeatedly coming off the edge or starting a big combo from the edge. I see m2k use a normal ol' ledge stand a lot. What makes this option so effective?
I like mixing between edgedash into roll, DJ to the tip of the edge(very underused but good imo), and getting up with an aerial and sometimes regular edgestand. I think you need the reverse wavedash to trick better opponents and then you can do awesome stuff afterward to them or at least get on the stage for free. Typically they space outside of Fair range and can hit or bait immediate actions, but that all gets thrown off and they have to start guessing when you bring reverse edgedashing into play. If they commit you can reverse the situation on them or get up for free. If they don't commit you can make them conditioned to not commit/only commit to certain getups and then pick other ones and getup for free.
 

Zhea

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Damn it pp why couldn't you have been a falcon main! Then we could have a lively discussion thread with high level analytical input all the time too. Almost makes me want to main marth and falco just to be part of the discussions...
 

Dr Peepee

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Well no one does this on the Falco boards sadly lol

Marth is fun to talk about online though =)

Oh and I play some Falcon too but no one cares what I think about that rofl
 

Mahie

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PP I really have this feel that you will fully switch to Marth for real at some point in the near future.

I don't know you and I have no reasons to say this. Just a baseless gut feeling.
 

Dr Peepee

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PP I really have this feel that you will fully switch to Marth for real at some point in the near future.

I don't know you and I have no reasons to say this. Just a baseless gut feeling.
I would truly love to(not atm tho because I love Falco too lol), and I actually am about to enter a very deep reflective period about my relationship with Melee. Perhaps some great change like that will occur for me, who knows? I doubt it lol but maybe =p
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
you're welcome to talk to me about it at any point when you're ready. if you don't want to, that's fine too.

edit: mahie i watched your play from RoF2 a good bit tonight. your play is overall pretty good but you have some bad habits i'd like to work with you on if you're interested.
 

AustinRC

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Got some videos up of me playing recently I'd really appreciate some collective feedback. Really trying to trim the fat on my game play. Other than getting frustrated a little in Marth dittos and throwing out fsmash's I know I get a little too aggressive. I don't care what you say as long as it's helpful.

Marth vs Falco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub0xBdadX9A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AITrjlL0vEI

Marth vs Marth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pnoGsWlmts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBuWQpfiRcU


Thank you all for your time.
 

RedmanSSBM

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Curious to know the percentages I should start doing certain things with Marth vs. spacies.

0-30% upthrow chain grab.
30%-70% utilt combos and aerial combos are easier in this percentage range.
70%-90% Killing percent. Not too sure what moves I should be using to kill (other than fsmash)
90%+ knockback becomes too strong against spacies and you can't properly combo them, but any hit strong enough can kill. i.e: ftilt.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
arc this i going to sound super generic but you have bad habits in neutral and your punishment game needs refined because you're not reacting to the opponent to shut down their options. in particular you jump too much. rely on fair less and your ground placement more imo
 

Beat!

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@Arc
I'll need to rewatch the set (against Falco) to confirm, but it looked like you hesitated for a split second after nearly every dash away PS, which delayed your WD and subsequently gave him more time to prepare for a potential counter attack.

@Skytch
You have the right idea overall, but there's an optimal way to do the chaingrab. I was working on a flowchart earlier but didn't finish it. I'll see if I can dig it up.
 

Beat!

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M2K is either not aware of or has not felt the need to learn the optimal chaingrab. The way he does it is superb, but not perfect.
 

RedmanSSBM

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@Arc
I'll need to rewatch the set (against Falco) to confirm, but it looked like you hesitated for a split second after nearly every dash away PS, which delayed your WD and subsequently gave him more time to prepare for a potential counter attack.

@Skytch
You have the right idea overall, but there's an optimal way to do the chaingrab. I was working on a flowchart earlier but didn't finish it. I'll see if I can dig it up.
Alright cool. That would be really helpful.
 

AustinRC

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Thanks for the advice guys. Umbreon could you be more specific with the habits you see? I think I'm blind to them or am just not noticing.
 

Beat!

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Turns out I was nearly finished with the flowchart.

I may do one for Falco as well, but it's essentially the same. The only real differences are that the percents for everything go up a little, and that you can't upthrow regrab at 0% if he DIs behind you.

Upthrow CG flowchart against Fox
Read these notes before reading the flowchart:
- All damage numbers in this guide, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are PRE-THROW percentages.
- This flowchart assumes that you have room to work with. If your opponent starts DIing towards an edge you need to be prepared to cut the combo short with a tipper or dair.
- Every follow-up in every step is reactable. There's no need to guess or read which way they'll DI.
- Pummels aren't mandatory, but they make it easier to execute the following move and the extra damage they tack on means the finishing tipper will be stronger.


1. 0 - 16%: Regular regrabs

2. 17 - 32%:
2a. No DI or slight behind DI: Pivot regrabs.
2b. Any other DI: Regular regrabs.

3.0. 33%:
3.0a. No DI: Turnaround uptilt -> regrab
3.0b. Slight behind DI: Uptilt -> regrab
3.0c. Any other DI: Regular regrab -> pummel

3.1. 34% (the reason it's different from 33% is that uptilt starts becoming unreliable against no DI because of its weird "not-upwards" hitboxes. If you actually get the correct hitbox, it'll still connect into a regrab, so if you feel confident that you can get it every time then just follow the chart for 33%):
3.1a. No DI: Rising SHFFL uair --> regrab
3.1b. Slight behind DI: Uptilt --> regrab
3.1c. Any other DI: Regular regrab

3.2. 35 - ~59%:
4a. No DI or slight behind DI: SHFFL uair -> regrab
4b. Any other DI: Regular regrab

5.0. ~60 - ~65%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> regrab (they should now have at least 80%, but less than 90%)

5.1. ~69 - ~75%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 105%)

6.0. ~80 - ~84%: Pummel once or twice before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 110%)

6.1. ~85 - ~87%: Delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 115%)

7. 90+%: Either upthrow -> tipper or upthrow -> weak uair -> tipper


Minor note: The numbers, while accurate, are not TAS-level perfection or anything. There's probably room for small improvements here and there.
 

Beat!

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More critique for Arc:

vs Falco (WF and GF):
You do a lot of fthrows. In some cases I can see the reasoning behind it (like when you fthrow -> dtilt to get him off stage), but what's the point of doing fthrow -> techase regrab -> upthrow at mid percents when you're in the middle of the stage ? Why take the risk of tech chasing when you could just upthrow immediately? Maybe you were looking for an improved position to upthrow from, but when he teched towards you you ended up in the same exact spot as before the fthrow, so all it accomplished was a negligible amount of damage.
In my opinion, fthrow is only worth doing when you're aiming for something particularly good out of it (like an edgeguard, or a techchase -> fsmash/reverse up-B)***. Something better than what you could get out of an upthrow in that particular situation. If you're going for something that you could've gotten out of an upthrow as well, or something that's not really that much better than what upthrow would accomplish, you're basically just jeopardizing the entire combo for no good reason.

***Not a huge fan of it in those situations either, but at least it gives you a potentially better follow-up.

You occasionally do that thing in the neutral game where you jump on a side platform and try to catch Falco's approach with a falling aerial. I used to like that a lot as a mix-up, but with a solid PS game (which is something you have) I don't see any real gain from it anymore because at its core, it's basically just a substitute for powershielding (since lasers are the only real reason you'd even want to consider going up on a platform against a grounded Falco). That, combined with the slight hesitation after most of your dash away powershields that I mentioned earlier, gives me the impression that you're not completely trusting your own PS game. Which is completely understandable; landing them consistently while at the same time not spacing like a turd requires focus, so it might feel tempting to have a bit of a plan B to fall back on, but ideally you want to aim for a point where PSing is so integrated into your mind that you don't have to think about it any more than l-cancelling or wavedashing.

You also need to expand your PS game beyond dash away PS. It's a very solid start, but eventually becomes manageable for Falco as he learns how to deal with it. Start working on ducking PS, standing PS and walk forward PS as well. Dash forward PS is by far the most rewarding, but unfortunately also the most difficult to land (the drawback of dash away PS being easy) so that one's optional.

I think your punishment game would improve if you started to look for upairs more often (you started doing that more in GF, though). Especially when you've put him on a side platform.
I also think you're a bit quick to go for the uptilt sometimes (when he's at 20-ish %). If he doesn't DI to a platform, just keep regrabbing him. If he does, a well timed uair (uptilt in some cases) will cover all options. Uptilt -> questionable tech chase is a bit sub-optimal next to those options.

Your edgeguarding is a bit inconsistent. Sometimes you're looking like M2K, and sometimes you're making things way too complicated for yourself. In general, I think you could be a little more aggressive with fairs. Falco should be afraid of using up-B when he's close to the stage, but for the most part he doesn't really have a reason to in these matches. Fair is just great overall when he's above the ledge.

A little more WD OOS when he's close and trying to pressure you probably wouldn't hurt.
 
D

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i'll do write-ups later for both of you too but mine will probably be shorter than that lol
 

Purpletuce

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Interesting, I've never noticed Marths using SH early Uair in their chaingrab. Should it be hitting them so that they simply land on stage and don't have time to do anything before regrab? That is what is mainly happening for me.

Also, I'm not sure if this really works, but if your opponent is a spacie on FD and keep full DIing away/behind, I've chased them down -> reverse UpB which is cool looking. . .
 
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I am starting to wonder why I was ever fascinated by trying to learn percentages for spacies CGs into KO attempts. Its pretty much invalidated anyway as soon as you go on a stage that is not FD.
 

RedmanSSBM

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I am starting to wonder why I was ever fascinated by trying to learn percentages for spacies CGs into KO attempts. Its pretty much invalidated anyway as soon as you go on a stage that is not FD.
If a spacie lands on a platform by teching, can't Marth easily chase them with a fair or an up-air?
 

Beat!

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@sh uair questions

It might be a good idea to start it a little later than 35% (40 instead might be a good start) because the timing is very tight at that percent. Other than that, yes, it combos. Just have to make sure to delay it more and more the higher the percent is. Armada and leffen can confirm.
 

knightpraetor

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Turns out I was nearly finished with the flowchart.

I may do one for Falco as well, but it's essentially the same. The only real differences are that the percents for everything go up a little, and that you can't upthrow regrab at 0% if he DIs behind you.

Upthrow CG flowchart against Fox
Read these notes before reading the flowchart:
- All damage numbers in this guide, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are PRE-THROW percentages.
- This flowchart assumes that you have room to work with. If your opponent starts DIing towards an edge you need to be prepared to cut the combo short with a tipper or dair.
- Every follow-up in every step is reactable. There's no need to guess or read which way they'll DI.
- Pummels aren't mandatory, but they make it easier to execute the following move and the extra damage they tack on means the finishing tipper will be stronger.


1. 0 - 16%: Regular regrabs

2. 17 - 32%:
2a. No DI or slight behind DI: Pivot regrabs
2b. Any other DI: Regular regrabs.

3.0. 33%:
3.0a. No DI: Turnaround uptilt -> regrab
3.0b. Slight behind DI: Uptilt -> regrab
3.0c. Any other DI: Regular regrab -> pummel

3.1. 34% (the reason it's different from 33% is that uptilt starts becoming unreliable against no DI because of its weird "not-upwards" hitboxes. If you actually get the correct hitbox, it'll still connect into a regrab, so if you feel confident that you can get it every time then just follow the chart for 33%):
3.1a. No DI: Rising SHFFL uair --> regrab
3.1b. Slight behind DI: Uptilt --> regrab
3.1c. Any other DI: Regular regrab

3.2. 35 - ~59%:
4a. No DI or slight behind DI: Rising SHFFL uair -> regrab
4b. Any other DI: Regular regrab

5.0. ~60 - ~65%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> regrab (they should now have at least 80%, but less than 90%)

5.1. ~69 - ~75%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 105%)

6.0. ~80 - ~84%: Pummel once or twice before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 110%)

6.1. ~85 - ~87%: Delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 115%)

7. 90+%: Either upthrow -> tipper or upthrow -> weak uair -> tipper


Minor note: The numbers, while accurate, are not TAS-level perfection or anything. There's probably room for small improvements here and there.
Some interesting things here that I don't use. Namely 5.0. Is that delayed shffl tipped upair or nontipped?

i'm also interested in the rising shffl upair into regrab. at 34% That is tipped right? i've been doing it that way. But I was wondering if perhaps in the 40-50 range you needed to nontip the upair to have it combo into grab. I just have a hard time believing that upair at 40% tipped will combo into grab before they can jump out. I would think they would be out of stun and could jump
 

Beat!

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The 5.0 uair is tipped, but as delayed as possible.

Yes, the 34% uair is also tipped.

At 40-50 you need to start delaying the uair, but you also obviously can't delay it for too long, so the timing is a bit tricky. It does work, however. I've never experienced any player of any skill level being able to get out when I execute it properly.

It took me pretty long to get consistent with the entire flowchart (still mess up sometimes), but I guess I was helped by leffen getting mad at me every time I went for sub-optimal stuff instead, haha.

Edit: I see now that I said rising shffl uair all the way up to ~59%. That's incorrect. The uair needs to be delayed more and more.
 

RedmanSSBM

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRC-16iu6WY

At 8:05 it looks like PP does a lot of what Beat! mentioned except for the delayed uairs. I feel like if maybe he delayed some of those uairs that he could have had an easier tipper or something. I can see why someone may not want to do a delayed uair though, because you risk having the spacie be able to jump out of the hitstun.
 

Beat!

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Yeah, the great part about Marth's chaingrab on spacies is that you can deviate from any flowcharts or optimal followups and do easier stuff instead and you can still be pretty much fine. However, doing it the correct way can make the difference that tips (heh) a very even match in your favour.
 

ShroudedOne

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I saw Leffen do a SH rising uair in a Marth combo once and wondered why more Marths didn't use that. Now that Beat posted the optimal tree, I guess there will be. Can that be stickied somewhere?
 

Armada

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In the guide Beat made for Marth on FD is very accurate and me and Beat has discussed this topic before even if he has made it way more in detail then I ever did (never really played Marth but I find the topic funny to always have a free 0-death).

Short jump uairs/delayed uairs is the most underrated combo abillity with Marth. Regarding the sh uair question, yes it works for sure. Long time ago I played this MU but I know it does work for sure.

Delayed uairs is also very important and even many of the best Marths is not using this to the full potencial. If the other char are in hitstun and can´t jump for another 0,3 seconds why hit with the uair right away and not wait this extra time so they fall DOWN. That is very important to get an extra uair into tipper in many cases.

For people that is a bit skeptical about uairs into tipper on higher % if people start to DI good you do have time to react into tipper. I usually dash a bit into WD and than a tipper. But that is more of a personal preference and you can do it other ways too.
 

Beat!

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I was actually about to message you and ask you to stop by and check the flowchart to make sure everything was fine. Thanks! :)

Edit:
@Shroudedone
I'll put the guide in my compilation thread. I've requested a sticky for it so we'll see what happens.
 

MookieRah

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So I guess we all have to learn how to do sh uairs asap now (if you haven't already). Why didn't I think of that? Anyways, ridiculously good stuff here Beat.
 

MookieRah

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OK, so right out the gate you attempt a sh dair from neutral. Yeah, don't do that. Ideally, you don't want to use aerials from neutral, especially the dair due to it's landing lag.

@32 - You could have just fsmashed during the lag of your opponents firefox here due to the fact that he tried to recover in a bad place. This is better than waiting because by waiting you run a higher risk of messing things up and you give your opponent the opportunity to edge tech.

@40'ish - You toss out an fsmash from neutral. Not a great idea. You are lucky that you weren't punished for it.

@2:56 - I feel that you were trying to hard to be flashy here, but there wasn't a reason to be. There were a lot of different ways to cover his options here, but you went with one that was hard to land and wouldn't have given you much even if you landed it. Ultimately it put you out of position and costed you the stock.

Overall, I think you played really well though. You just have to try to clean up your neutral game and not take as many risks.
 

AustinRC

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More critique for Arc:

vs Falco (WF and GF):
You do a lot of fthrows. In some cases I can see the reasoning behind it (like when you fthrow -> dtilt to get him off stage), but what's the point of doing fthrow -> techase regrab -> upthrow at mid percents when you're in the middle of the stage ?
In that particular situation I was trying to get better positioning and throw him on the platform for a quick kill. Throw him on the ground and get two reads then throw him up and get him to tech towards the edge of the stage where I would wavedash in and tipper fsmash him. I messed it up and didn't get anything from it though.

In my opinion, fthrow is only worth doing when you're aiming for something particularly good out of it (like an edgeguard, or a techchase -> fsmash/reverse up-B)***. Something better than what you could get out of an upthrow in that particular situation. If you're going for something that you could've gotten out of an upthrow as well, or something that's not really that much better than what upthrow would accomplish, you're basically just jeopardizing the entire combo for no good reason.
I will keep this in mind and start just upthrowing people. It makes sense.

***Not a huge fan of it in those situations either, but at least it gives you a potentially better follow-up.

You occasionally do that thing in the neutral game where you jump on a side platform and try to catch Falco's approach with a falling aerial. I used to like that a lot as a mix-up, but with a solid PS game (which is something you have) I don't see any real gain from it anymore because at its core, it's basically just a substitute for powershielding (since lasers are the only real reason you'd even want to consider going up on a platform against a grounded Falco).
I feel that going to the platforms has it's own implications. It may not be as good of an option as using just my power shield game however after a certain point I feel more comfortable staying away from lasers for awhile and platforms allow me to do that.

That, combined with the slight hesitation after most of your dash away powershields that I mentioned earlier, gives me the impression that you're not completely trusting your own PS game. Which is completely understandable; landing them consistently while at the same time not spacing like a turd requires focus, so it might feel tempting to have a bit of a plan B to fall back on, but ideally you want to aim for a point where PSing is so integrated into your mind that you don't have to think about it any more than l-cancelling or wavedashing.
I'm in the lab working on new situations/ approaches after PSing a laser. After more testing if it turns out to be good I'll post it here. But you are right, I don't pick up on a lot of my PS lasers.

You also need to expand your PS game beyond dash away PS. It's a very solid start, but eventually becomes manageable for Falco as he learns how to deal with it. Start working on ducking PS, standing PS and walk forward PS as well. Dash forward PS is by far the most rewarding, but unfortunately also the most difficult to land (the drawback of dash away PS being easy) so that one's optional.

I think your punishment game would improve if you started to look for upairs more often (you started doing that more in GF, though). Especially when you've put him on a side platform.
I also think you're a bit quick to go for the uptilt sometimes (when he's at 20-ish %). If he doesn't DI to a platform, just keep regrabbing him. If he does, a well timed uair (uptilt in some cases) will cover all options. Uptilt -> questionable tech chase is a bit sub-optimal next to those options.
I honestly think all you need is dash away PS. It keeps you moving and harder to hit. As long as I mix up what I do right after I should be good. Which I know I didn't in this set really but I'm saying for the future I think I'll be just fine with dash away PS.

Your edgeguarding is a bit inconsistent. Sometimes you're looking like M2K, and sometimes you're making things way too complicated for yourself. In general, I think you could be a little more aggressive with fairs. Falco should be afraid of using up-B when he's close to the stage, but for the most part he doesn't really have a reason to in these matches. Fair is just great overall when he's above the ledge.

A little more WD OOS when he's close and trying to pressure you probably wouldn't hurt.
My edgeguarding is very inconsistent. I notice sometimes I try too hard to keep them off when I should just let them back on and reset. I'm trying to work on that a lot right now but I often feel like I'm bashing my head against a wall. Sometimes I completely get it, I know exactly what I need to do. Then other times I just completely panic and **** everything up and put myself in a horrid situation. I get stuck in thought on weighing the options of going out after him or staying on and reacting to side B. Honestly I need to be ready to react to either but I just get a little anxious. I'll keep that in mind and work on it as well.

Thank you for the advice Beat!
 

Beat!

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No problem. :)

I honestly think all you need is dash away PS. It keeps you moving and harder to hit. As long as I mix up what I do right after I should be good. Which I know I didn't in this set really but I'm saying for the future I think I'll be just fine with dash away PS.
Yeah, maybe. It's certainly enough to at least keep Falco's laser game manageable. It just feels a tad insufficient sometimes against really good Falcos. Then again, maybe I'm not utilizing it optimally.


Still not convinced about the platforms, but all things considered it's certainly decent in the very least.
 

Purpletuce

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Regarding the Uairs, at lower %s(like less than 70~) I'm hitting them without it tipped, and then they're landing without getting knocked over, and I'm regrabbing. It seems like they don't have time to do anyhthing to get out though. Maybe I should be Shing, and moving away from them more to hit with a tip, or am I doing it too slow? At higher %s I can't quite get the really low Uair -> tipper, so I usually opt for uthrow-> utilt -> uair -> Fsmash, which doesn't outright kill because I missed the tipper, but it puts them in an easy edgeguard situation. . .
 
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