Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Deleted member]

if you want i'll go over one video with you with depth. you can choose a time stamp for where to start. i can't cover 80 minutes of gameplay with only 3 books.

 

[MookieRah]

Your whole 3rd stock, he was spot dodging like crazy. You went for a grab in the same way a few times, by just walking up to him and grabbing as soon as you got in range. He started predicting that on this stock and really punished you for it.

Yeah, this was a habit I apparently developed from the fact that I train mostly against computers and people that are still quite below my skill level. I started to adapt to this a bit towards the end, but it took me way to long to kick it. Almost every time I realized it was a terrible mistake immediately after I inputted the grab.

Dash dancing in Marth dittos is as much about controlling space as it is baiting out an attack. It's a little abstract but try to push your opponent out to the corner of the stage with your dash dance.

Well I just started dash dancing properly for the first time like a month ago, and by proper I mean that the goal of my dash dancing was to bait out an attack. I haven't had very long working with it, and what happened a lot in these matches was that I used it more like how I used to in my Mewtwo days more to cover an approach than anything else. After watching the video a few times I realized that I would have done A LOT better if I always closed the space between him and I and then dash dancing close to him. That way I'd pin him closer to the edge with less space to move while I had plenty behind me if I needed it.


On jumping for no reason, I already covered that in my post for things that I do that make no sense and cost me that I'll weed out.

obviously fthrow chain grab or fthrow into fsmash are really good, at mid %s, up throw juggling is where it's at, whether with uairs or fairs or utilts.

I was aware of fthrow into fsmash, but if you DI away the fsmash doesn't reach. Zut had apparently been training his Marth ditto matchup specifically for his match with me, and had plenty of time to learn to always DI away. This is why I rarely relied on the fthrow fsmash. What I started doing in the later set though was doing the fthrow chain twice into an uthrow both to give myself some momentum, but also to get him closer to the stage. As far as not juggling him effectively, I got better with it as the matches progressed. Again, having bad habits an no recent Marth ditto experience really hurt here because my spacing would be just a little off at times and I also wasn't prepared for his side B usage.

Random aside: I don't think you dash attacked once in any of the games. It's really strong in the ditto, so at the very least, you want to make them afraid that you COULD use it on them.

I did a couple of times, actually. One led to something, the other not so much. I don't think dash attack is very strong, and if anything should really on be used in pursuit when you know that you will land it. Otherwise it's way riskier and often yields less reward than a dash grab.

and when I have the advantage, I'll bust out wacky stuff every now and then

I don't think this is really good advice overall. Ideally you should play safe throughout so that you don't give your opponent any opportunities to reverse his/her situation. Doing wacky stuff would rely on your opponent messing up, which is generally a very poor strategy.

 

[AprilShaw]

I don't think this is really good advice overall. Ideally you should play safe throughout so that you don't give your opponent any opportunities to reverse his/her situation. Doing wacky stuff would rely on your opponent messing up, which is generally a very poor strategy.

Well, I guess it's a playstyle thing. But here's my take on it. There aren't many things that are 100% safe in smash, and if you stick to those, you will limit yourself a ton. Keeping an open mind to every option your character has is important. Playing too standard will just give your opponent fewer things to look for.

Plus, when you have the advantage, using nonstandard options is much more likely to force a mistake. Unless you are good enough to hit every possible DI and tech and get 0 to deaths 100% of the time, you're going to need your opponent to make a mistake somewhere. Otherwise you're just gonna give them a chance to capitalize on your mistake. Keep conscious of when you are pressuring them and you can score some big punishes that you wouldn't otherwise be able to do.

That's kind of my thing with dash attack. Sure, dash attack isn't safe (side note, neither is grabbing). But it leads to a LOT of damage, especially in the ditto. So if you catch him trying to dashdance out of grab range (which is fairly easy to do) with a tippered dash attack, which often will lead to a lot of % or a stock, he'll be scared and might hesitate to try that dash dance again, which gives you some more openings. And if he's not expecting the dash attack, it's gonna be a lot harder for him to react to it. You'll see dash attacks go unpunished or get punished by like, a weak fair that leads to nothing a lot of the time.

I just feel like sticking only to safe, standard play is gonna screw you over in the end. Everyone knows how to deal with that stuff by this point. Creativity is important for winning games.

 

[GMhyprid]

I'm not sure playing creatively and using "standard options" (aka options that are used the most because they are seen as the most optimal choices) are mutually exclusive. I think it's completely possible for a Marth that spams DD, grab, and dtilt almost exclusively to still feel like he's being creative.

Actually, I would like to ask how to play creatively and optimally at the same time, because doing both at the same time should be possible. In this situation, I would define creativity as having enough flow and spontaneity to react in a way that works against your opponent.

As I've been playing longer and getting a better idea of what options are more optimal than others, I've realized that I lost the creativity that I had a few years ago. Even though I've gotten better, I've lost fluidity in my playing and have become more concerned about how I believe things should happen (an example of this dangerous "should" thinking: After I get hit I think, "I was in a favorable position, I shouldn't have gotten hit"). How can I attempt to play optimally and also have an open mind to what is actually happening on the screen? I'm especially interested in answers from "textbook" players.

 

[MookieRah]

if you want i'll go over one video with you with depth. you can choose a time stamp for where to start. i can't cover 80 minutes of gameplay with only 3 books.

Definitely. It actually isn't 80 minutes of play, more like 40 minutes. Not sure what the rest of the stream is there actually. In any case, if you start from 18:25 that is my second set against Zut. I start fixing all the bad habits I have in that set so there is less dumb **** that I do and more logical errors.

Sure, dash attack isn't safe (side note, neither is grabbing).

Grabbing isn't safe, but it is safer overall and you are left less vulnerable if you whiff a JC grab. Also, in a lot of cases you could get more off of a grab, and there are multiple ways you could set up a grab while the dash attack is quite limited due to the nature of the attack and the fact it doesn't work against a shielded opponent as well. Between the two options, I would grab from neutral but strive to never dash attack from neutral for this reason.

Unless you are good enough to hit every possible DI and tech and get 0 to deaths 100% of the time, you're going to need your opponent to make a mistake somewhere.

My point was that if your option here is something that can only work if player does X and you do Y, then it's inferior to choice Z if Z works against more options almost as well and is safer. If you have to force a lot of specific stuff (AKA mindgame) in order to pull something off, it's not optimal. You have to assess risk and reward. By using a mindgame strategy you are literally allowing your opponent the opportunity to outplay you.

I just feel like sticking only to safe, standard play is gonna screw you over in the end. Everyone knows how to deal with that stuff by this point.

Watch some Dr. PeePee Marth matches. For the most part he sticks to only safe and optimal options without resorting to crazy mindgames and he wins. He wins because he doesn't give stuff away to his opponent and wins small victories over time.

 

[AprilShaw]

My point was that if your option here is something that can only work if player does X and you do Y, then it's inferior to choice Z if Z works against more options almost as well and is safer. If you have to force a lot of specific stuff (AKA mindgame) in order to pull something off, it's not optimal. You have to assess risk and reward. By using a mindgame strategy you are literally allowing your opponent the opportunity to outplay you.


Watch some Dr. PeePee Marth matches. For the most part he sticks to only safe and optimal options without resorting to crazy mindgames and he wins. He wins because he doesn't give stuff away to his opponent and wins small victories over time.

To your first point: it's important to keep in mind that even if choice "Z" works against more options, it doesn't work against the same options as your other moves. If your opponent never has to do anything other than what will beat choice "Z", then they're going to be much more capable of beating it. Everything can be outplayed in melee. And a lot of people (myself included) build their entire playbooks around what is standard, and get really tripped up when people deviate from that.

As for Dr. Peepee, he's definitely known to throw out dash attacks, nairs, bairs, side Bs, etc., and from neutral game as well as when he has pressure. Like you said, for the most part he sticks to more safe options. But he uses other options frequently enough that people have to look out for them.

But even if you don't believe me, I can give some other pro player examples, too. PewPewU, arguably our best Marth main, definitely does not stick to the standard playbook, not just with what attacks he uses but with his movement as well. Some of the EU players are like that too, like Ice. Or especially Armada, even though he doesn't main Marth, his Marth is great and doesn't stick to standard play at all.

 

[Deleted member]

CABC i could post another wall addressing this stuff but i'm sure i'd miss a lot of stuff. just do a search for all of my posts in this thread and go through all of them, then come back to the discussion. not to be mean but...yeah if you want to be taken seriously just do it.

As for Dr. Peepee, he's definitely known to throw out dash attacks, nairs, bairs, side Bs, etc., and from neutral game as well as when he has pressure.

when he does, i personally text him and tell him to stop being bad. yes, every single time. for the last 2 years. he knows better, trust me.

 

[CyberZixx]

I know where you are coming from CABC and have tried multiple methods of play as Marth. Turns out the safe, movement heavy, reaction based, options limiting Marth is the way to go as it truly is the most effective. Try it out sometime to see for yourself.

 

[Sozen the Phoenix]

How would you guys recommend learning and practicing powersheilding? I've read a decent amount about it, but I am still wondering the best way to go about it.

 

[AprilShaw]

Power shielding lasers? Or moves in general? If you have a Falco to play against regularly, just consciously try to power shield during games- try it while moving towards them and while crouching as well as while just standing. If you don't have any Falco players nearby, I couldn't really help you there I learned it just by trying to do it a lot

 

[Bones0]

Select Falco with your controller. With a second controller, plug it in while holding up on the control stick (this will register a down input in neutral). Select Fox or Falco with the second controller. Start up a game on FD, press and hold B on the second controller to shine (either put something on top of your controller's B-button or tape it down). Laser the shine and try to PS them back. Once you start PSing them back, then you can start trying to PS the same laser twice and even three times if you get really good at it. Make sure that even when you don't get the PS that you are still able to move out of shield properly. You can move OoS sooner if you PS a projectile, but because you won't be doing it 100% of the time, it's best to wait out the few frames of shield stun just in case you miss the PS. If you hit the PS, waiting those few extra frames won't make a huge difference in whether or not you get a punish.

 

[Deleted member]

i just pick the lv 9 CPU and downthrow him when he gets close and run away and just keep trying it on FD. you can do it a few times for like 5-10 min each and you'll get it pretty quick.

 

[SUNG666]

^Dunno why I never thought of doing something like that I'm so dumb...

//edit// @ bones0

 

[Beat!]

I put the second controller on the ground and press B with my toe.

i just pick the lv 9 CPU and downthrow him when he gets close and run away and just keep trying it on FD. you can do it a few times for like 5-10 min each and you'll get it pretty quick.

I also do this sometimes.

 

[MookieRah]

One more time: http://www.twitch.tv/headquarterstream/c/3047917

Please critique my Marth. EDIT: They have a new cut that only includes my matches and not the extra stuff at the end. Matches begin at 45 seconds in and the best set for critiquing begins at 15:28.

Please people, don't make me beg!

 

[Beat!]

Probably won't have time to look at your matches today, but I'll try to do it tomorrow.

 

[Beat!]

Tried to watch, but it's lagging too much. Almost always happens when I try to watch twitch recordings from my computer. Sorry :/. Are the matches going to be uploaded to Youtube?

 

[Frame Perfect]

be grateful. #neverforget #56k

 

[AceDudeyeah]

I just read the last few pages. I see hax-dashing as only a stall if you're opponent sticks to low-commitment spacey ftilts or Marth dtilt.
Insta-land fsmash(fast falling a few more frames before DJ'ing so Marth goes grounded without a landing animation) works wonders to low-commitment spacing.

 

[Kadano]

One more time: http://www.twitch.tv/headquarterstream/c/3047917

Please critique my Marth. EDIT: They have a new cut that only includes my matches and not the extra stuff at the end. Matches begin at 45 seconds in and the best set for critiquing begins at 15:28.

Please people, don't make me beg!

You could make it much easier for others to watch your matches by downloading them (for example with this tool) merge / cut them with Avidemux and re-upload the sets on Youtube. Twitch has massive problems at the time and it really isn’t much fun to go through that hassle.

That being said, watching your match against Sheik on FD and the first match against the white Marth, you seemed quite nervous to me. You made some unnecessary commitments that didn’t pay out. Especially against Sheik with her ridiculous dash attack, you need to focus on reacting quickly and correctly.
There were many instances you did this the right way, but sometimes you tried to force a grab or an aerial, and most of the time got punished for it.
I really liked how you dealt with Sheik above you, especially that full hop to fastfall uair.

Sometimes when both of you dashdanced, you weren’t really exerting pressure with your dashdance. I suggest throwing in occasional wd in → dtilt where she is standing → dash away to force her into the air or a defensive position. Also, whenever you see Sheik extending her dash a bit further towards you, immediately react, for example with dash away → sh bair. You can also play the guessing game and dash far away and then wd → turn grab when you expect a dash attack or dash towards and grab if you expect her to overshoot, but those aren’t as safe as bair.
Make her respect your space.

 

[MookieRah]

You could make it much easier for others to watch your matches by downloading them (for example with this tool) merge / cut them with Avidemux and re-upload the sets on Youtube. Twitch has massive problems at the time and it really isn’t much fun to go through that hassle.

The guy with the source files says he is uploading them and that they should be up soon, but since you sent me that link I'll go ahead and do that myself. I'll repost the youtube links when they are up.

You made some unnecessary commitments that didn’t pay out. Especially against Sheik with her ridiculous dash attack, you need to focus on reacting quickly and correctly.

I wasn't so much as nervous is that I haven't played against people at or above my skill level in years, and I have developed a lot of weird habits in that time. I also don't play against many people that use dash attacks much, or use characters with great dash attacks. Zut and Kenny, the two I played, both live where I am, but they virtually never come out where everyone in Umeå meets to smash. This is the first time I've played them since April. I'm hoping that this tournament has loosened them up a bit and get them more motivated.

I also just started dash dancing "correctly" just recently. Back when I played competitively in the states my dash dancing was more of a means to just cover my approach options and not really for baiting. I've been running it that way for years until all the discussion of movement on the Marth boards. It wasn't until the past month or so ago that I began working on my precision as well as working on trying to bait stuff out of it. I think I overdo my attempts hardcore in these matches as well as losing focus of the purpose of it at times as well. That said, I also hone it quite a bit as it starts looking better by my second set with Zutnop when I start making a comeback.

 

[Deleted member]

honestly dashdancing isn't even for baiting, it's more like a low-risk method to take stage presence away from your opponent. at some point they have to react to you because their position will be too poor to interact with you favorably after that point. they aren't necessarily reacting because you baited them, although if you can bait them into doing something stupid by all means make a video out of them. if dashdancing only relied on the opponent falling for it, it would not be nearly as broken as it actually is.​

​

this is kind of a nitpick post @ mooks but i think the clarification will help a lot of players reading this thread. as a social experiment to anyone else, like this post or quote it and respond to this idea ^ so i know how many of you actually read this kind of stuff and find it engaging or useful so we can direct our strategic development for the character accordingly.​

 

[MookieRah]

this is kind of a nitpick post @ mooks but i think the clarification will help a lot of players reading this thread.

What? I don't see it being nitpicky as it's EXACTLY what I needed to hear. I think I misinterpreted what the thread was discussing when it came to dash dancing. I think that if I was more focussed on dash dancing as a positioning tool rather than a tool to get my opponent to commit to something, I could have taken that set against Zut and possibly the next. I realized after watching the video that I often times would sit in the center of the stage dash dancing back and forth for no apparent reason when I could have instead taken a lot of stage and put a lot more pressure on my opponent.

 

[Deleted member]

i'll watch your set then.

most people don't get dashdancing at all, so don't feel too bad.

 

[MookieRah]

EDIT:
OK, all the vids are up on youtube and cut into each set. Here they are:

Winners Finals: First set with Zut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_i7O48bhsw

Loser Finals: Set with Kenny
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdg7bqYKFJ4

Grand Finals: Final set with Zut (I start making a comeback here)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78idevMTiRk

 

[Beat!]

Man, swedish commentary usually makes me cringe but this was pretty good.

vs Zut (Winners Finals):
First off, I think you did a very good job during his first stock, and to a lesser extent his second. I really liked the upthrow at 0:22 and the fact that you were being patient after it, as well as the edgeguard.
I'm not sure what really happened after that. It looked like you lost any resemblance of a game plan and just... did stuff. Did you lose focus?

- Marth's spot dodge is awful. If you see him spamming it in place (1:35) it should be a free punish (you punished his spot dodges on several occasions later on so maybe you realized this yourself). Instead, you whiffed the grab and started spot dodging yourself. Doing it once is one thing, but if you haven't been punished yet after that you should just try to get away. Dash or roll.

- It's good that you're not immediately wasting your double jump when you're being juggled, but regularly coming down with a dair isn't very good either and it gave him easy shield grabs several times. It's obviously difficult to get down at all, especially on FD, but there are some things you can do. DI away instead of just remaining right above him, so he at least has to chase you. Try air dodging sometimes. And so forth. Also, sometimes you may have to take it in steps rather than trying to get back to neutral immediately. Being on the ledge isn't a good position either, but it's better than being above Marth, so you may need to settle for that sometimes. Basically, you need to accept that you're in a bad position and work with what you have, rather than trying to play as if it's still a neutral position.

- Work on your survival DI. You die from fsmashes too early.

- WD back -> instant dash forward ****s with your momentum. I'm not too fond of doing it at all, but if you're going to do it you need to take the reduced dash speed into account or you're going to continue to whiff grabs (2:05, 2:20).

- I mentioned upthrow earlier. Why did you stop doing it? You were doing a good job early on, but then you started doing dthrows and fthrows more and more as the set went on. If you hadn't gotten anything out of your early upthrows I would've at least understood the reasoning for stopping (even though I'd disagree with it), but the one at 0:22 was one of the first you landed and it gave you an amazing follow-up, so I'm a bit confused.

I don't have as much critique for game 2 because you kind of just fell apart, but there are some things I want to point out:

- At 3:37 he landed a grab and did dthrow -> nothing. You were still on the ground and he was a bit too far away to be an immediate threat. Great! Sure, he had more room to work with but that was also the only advantage he had... until you full hopped onto the platform. Assuming that wasn't a mistake, don't ever do that. Getting below the other Marth is one of the main goals of this matchup, and you did that for him.

-At 4:07 I think you should've gone to the top platform and then try to work your way down from there. This goes back to what I said earlier about getting back to neutral in steps instead of trying to do it instantly.



I'll look at the other two sets later today.



@Umbreon

honestly dashdancing isn't even for baiting, it's more like a low-risk method to take stage presence away from your opponent. at some point they have to react to you because their position will be too poor to interact with you favorably after that point. they aren't necessarily reacting because you baited them, although if you can bait them into doing something stupid by all means make a video out of them. if dashdancing only relied on the opponent falling for it, it would not be nearly as broken as it actually is.

As a social experiment to anyone else, like this post or quote it and respond to this idea ^ so i know how many of you actually read this kind of stuff and find it engaging or useful so we can direct our strategic development for the character accordingly.

Filthy like-farmer.

Seriously though, I agree. I don't really have much to add though, because you pretty much summarized how I think of dashdancing. I guess one thing I want to mention is that I think many Marths are too quick to give up their dashdance against Falco because of lasers. With a solid PS game and a general understanding of when and how he will laser you can maintain your dashdance against him. It's just a little trickier than usual.

 

[Xyzz]

-snip-

Some of your stuff is interesting, some isn't. This one in particular isn't really that big of a revelation imho.
I don't really know why you would care for the actual number of people reading these things, and if asking them to interact with you actually makes everybody say "hi", but whatever, here you go

 

[MookieRah]

Man, swedish commentary usually makes me cringe but this was pretty good.

I thought it was good too, but I had no frame of reference for Swedish commentary. The commentators were two guys that play tons of fighting games, with one of them also being someone that plays smash casually. Turned out quite good imo.

vs Zut (Winners Finals):
First off, I think you did a very good job during his first stock, and to a lesser extent his second. I really liked the upthrow at 0:22 and the fact that you were being patient after it, as well as the edgeguard.
I'm not sure what really happened after that. It looked like you lost any resemblance of a game plan and just... did stuff. Did you lose focus?

I've been thinking about what went so terribly wrong in that first set for a while. I think what it was is that I begin to try to match his pace instead of playing at mine. The other thing that got my a bit ruffled was the fact that I have so many bad habits from playing comps and people below me, and Zut picked up on that really fast. My DI that first set was pretty bad, but I get my **** together more in the grand finals set.

- Marth's spot dodge is awful. If you see him spamming it in place (1:35) it should be a free punish (you punished his spot dodges on several occasions later on so maybe you realized this yourself). Instead, you whiffed the grab and started spot dodging yourself. Doing it once is one thing, but if you haven't been punished yet after that you should just try to get away. Dash or roll.

Yeah, this is something that I haven't learned to do 100% of the time, mostly cause I used to do this in matches way back in the day. I do start punishing him for this later on though.

I mentioned upthrow earlier. Why did you stop doing it? You were doing a good job early on, but then you started doing dthrows and fthrows more and more as the set went on.

Well, the reason I started going for the downthrows is admittedly a dumb one. I had played Zut 6 months ago at the previous tvspelsjam, and I was catching him in stuff like that then. After he landed a couple on me due to **** habits, I tried a couple of times to catch him in it. Obviously, it didn't work out to well.

- WD back -> instant dash forward ****s with your momentum. I'm not too fond of doing it at all, but if you're going to do it you need to take the reduced dash speed into account or you're going to continue to whiff grabs (2:05, 2:20).

I use it all the time, but I should really learn to compensate for it when I plan to grab. I didn't even think of that as being a problem, but it totally is. I'll definitely work on it.

- At 3:37 he landed a grab and did dthrow -> nothing. You were still on the ground and he was a bit too far away to be an immediate threat. Great! Sure, he had more room to work with but that was also the only advantage he had... until you full hopped onto the platform. Assuming that wasn't a mistake, don't ever do that. Getting below the other Marth is one of the main goals of this matchup, and you did that for him.

I feel really dumb for not noticing that earlier as something that is dumb as **** that I might have a tendency of doing. I'll be sure to make sure that I keep an eye out for when I want to do this in the future and restrain myself. If it is any consolation though, he takes me back to BF in the next set and I end up beating him there, so that match was more just epic fail on my part.

-At 4:07 I think you should've gone to the top platform and then try to work your way down from there. This goes back to what I said earlier about getting back to neutral in steps instead of trying to do it instantly.

Yeah, I began to realize that from watching the video myself. Zut hardly ever has a good solution for dealing with me on the top mid platform, and the few times I went there he didn't do much with it. I think he was so focused on getting me on either of the side platforms and juggling from there than anything else. I also can get away with using shield dropping from there because I don't have to worry about shield-poked tippers like I do from the lower platforms.

I'll look at the other two sets later today.

I begin to play a lot better in those. That first set was sort of my own personal awakening to how many bad habits I had picked up. I started weeding them out more and more as I play, thankfully.

 

[CyberZixx]

honestly dashdancing isn't even for baiting, it's more like a low-risk method to take stage presence away from your opponent. at some point they have to react to you because their position will be too poor to interact with you favorably after that point. they aren't necessarily reacting because you baited them, although if you can bait them into doing something stupid by all means make a video out of them. if dashdancing only relied on the opponent falling for it, it would not be nearly as broken as it actually is.

this is kind of a nitpick post @ mooks but i think the clarification will help a lot of players reading this thread. as a social experiment to anyone else, like this post or quote it and respond to this idea ^ so i know how many of you actually read this kind of stuff and find it engaging or useful so we can direct our strategic development for the character accordingly.

So any time someone dashdancing when they are not already in a good position is not ideal? Can you use it to force them into a bad position do you find? So the way it works is to control space and fluster the opponent, I gather as you are using tricky movement to control space and limit how they can interact with the Marth. What kind of balance should I strive for in waiting and react vs throwing stuff like dtilts, altering dash dance length to try and force a reaction to react to. As you said it don't seem people are just gonna mess up because someone is dash dancing.

 

[Beat!]

vs Kenny:

Game 1:
- Those dairs again. Same deal as the WF set, really.

- You're a bit quick to jump, even when he's not forcing it with a projectile. Fullhopping in particular is something you should be very careful with against grounded opponents. It's not quite as bad against a character as slow as Link, but it also doesn't accomplish much. Fullhop -> falling fair on shield isn't exactly a huge success and that was pretty much the average outcome.

Don't have a whole lot else to say about this game since it was so one-sided. Solid edgeguarding.

Game 2:
- Some weird fullhops early on. He didn't really try to capitalize on it so you got back down again, but I think you could've found yourself in a pretty nasty position if he had tried to close in on you.

- I keep going on about upthrow pretty much every time I critique someone, but when you're on FD and Sheik's at really low % (0-5 or 0-10), I think downthrow is worth considering, especially if it corners her, because it's a guaranteed techchase where as upthrow is a bit of an RPS. If you uptilt immediately she can jump before it connects and have a decent chance of getting down on the ground again. If you try to wait for the jump she can mix up with instant falling nair instead. It's still a solid option, but the fact that Sheik has legitimate possibilities for counter attacks means it's not quite as amazing as usual.

- A couple of questionable nairs (and some decent ones). The move has its value, but it's generally a pretty risky move against a grounded Sheik.

- Keep working on your tech skill. It's good overall, but (taking all the matches I've seen so far into account) there's a decent amount of minor/moderate technical errors.

Your juggling game is solid. You're patient and your move choices are good overall. Good stuff.

 

[MookieRah]

- You're a bit quick to jump, even when he's not forcing it with a projectile. Fullhopping in particular is something you should be very careful with against grounded opponents. It's not quite as bad against a character as slow as Link, but it also doesn't accomplish much. Fullhop -> falling fair on shield isn't exactly a huge success and that was pretty much the average outcome.

Yeah. I had an idea that I would do those full hop fairs when I suspected he would toss a bomb or a rang, but a lot of times I was just derping around in the air. I really don't know how to close the gap against projectile happy players that well, thankfully that didn't hurt me in this match.

Thanks a lot for your critiques and compliments so far. I very much appreciate it and all the help I have gotten from you and the others who have posted!

So far my list of things to work on are as follows:

Focus staying on the ground more and not jump unnecessarily.
Focus on using my dash dancing more as a positional tool and less as a baiting tool.
Become a spacing god through bomb training. I was caught off-guard with my spacing cause I wasn't used to fighting another Marth.
Stop using nair from neutral. I think I might catch people in their dash attacks, but clearly they are more of a liability.
Mix up my counter juggle game, and not spam dairs.
Work on my survival DI and DI from grabs.
Work more on movement. Get better with wavelanding.
Work more on sweet spotting. (I'm also learning to do the ledge tech bair recovery, it's starting to come together!)
Work on tech (overall). Learn to pivot and get better with shield dropping.

 

[Beat!]

No problem.

You don't have to stop using nairs completely in neutral, but it's good to view it as a situational tool rather than a go-to move. It's not bad. It's just very easily punished if you're not careful.

Or, well, it might be a good idea to stop using it altogether for a while, and then from there try work out in what situations it would be useful. It's a method of learning that's advocated by some. I've never tried it super seriously, but it seems reasonable on paper.

I'll look at the final set tomorrow

 

[Deleted member]

So any time someone dashdancing when they are not already in a good position is not ideal? Can you use it to force them into a bad position do you find? So the way it works is to control space and fluster the opponent, I gather as you are using tricky movement to control space and limit how they can interact with the Marth. What kind of balance should I strive for in waiting and react vs throwing stuff like dtilts, altering dash dance length to try and force a reaction to react to. As you said it don't seem people are just gonna mess up because someone is dash dancing.

this is an excellent question. due to the nature of the game, you and your opponent are both different amounts of threatening to each other at any given time. for an extreme example, if you attack away from your opponent, or you have your opponent in a combo, their threat level is 0. how threatening your opponent is to you and you to your opponent changes constantly with the conditions of the match.

when you're using dashdance to control space, you are making yourself more threatening to your opponent. since this is the best use of dashdance, we can assert now that dashdancing is a relatively aggressive tactic (marth is an aggressive character, and this is one of the main reasons why). as your movement closes off options from your opponent, this is the essence of what makes you more threatening. at the point where your opponent has no options, you are basically already killing them. the benefit here is that good use of dashdance puts you into a strong positional advantage similar to something like fox's upthrow does except you never have to dedicate to an attack.

this is a somewhat fallacious comparison but it should convey the point well enough. suppose you want to convert on your opponent so you use fox's upthrow to get your opponent above you. fox's upthrow is spectacular as a move, and at one time i would have said it's the best move in the game. now let's say your dashdance pins your opponent to the edge of the stage and they jump. the functional difference here is that you never had to partake in the risk of actually engaging the opponent with a proper conversion. and you can say "why would my opponent jump" but due to spatial placements it could still very well be the opponent's best option at that time. that example can go much deeper than that but i'd rather not get into it if the point has been made accordingly.

you are totally using dashdance to control space. if you can fluster your opponent, that's a bonus, but not something you need or should expect. you primarily throw out the grab or dtilt in this sequence:

1. dashdance to control stage space AND to eliminate the opponent's options to engage you since you have a sword and you're guaranteed to win engagements every time if you set them up correctly (you need both the stage space and the interaction advantage to make this work).
2. observe your opponent. make sure you have it. if you don't have it, continue to hold position or make minor adjustments to better your position. this observation can be VERY fast if not instantaneous, you don't have to actually pause your game so to speak. you just want to confirm that you have it.
3. once you confirm that you have the favorable exchange either via interrupt (attacking your opponents attacks with the disjointed swordbox and always winning) or via an actual conversion (dtilt or grab) or zero or functionally zero risk, you do it. if you do not have it at low risk, simply go back to observing the opponent or dashdancing, depending on your stage control and the opponent's options to engage you.

your conversion via dtilt does not necessarily have to lead into...anything! other than even better stage position and removing even more options from your opponent. continuously increasing your advantage on the opponent is going to remove options from them until they are functionally dead regardless of % and it's just going through the motions to finish the stock. this is the essence of Taj's idea of React and Deny but it's not nearly as reactive as it sounds because a proper neutral game is already implied at higher levels of play.

edit: i only said like and quotes because some people don't really have anything to say and both go to my alerts box.

edit 2: nair is terrible in neutral. seriously don't use it from neutral ever. just don't.

 

[swanized]

honestly dashdancing isn't even for baiting, it's more like a low-risk method to take stage presence away from your opponent. at some point they have to react to you because their position will be too poor to interact with you favorably after that point. they aren't necessarily reacting because you baited them, although if you can bait them into doing something stupid by all means make a video out of them. if dashdancing only relied on the opponent falling for it, it would not be nearly as broken as it actually is.

this is kind of a nitpick post @ mooks but i think the clarification will help a lot of players reading this thread. as a social experiment to anyone else, like this post or quote it and respond to this idea ^ so i know how many of you actually read this kind of stuff and find it engaging or useful so we can direct our strategic development for the character accordingly.

Reading your discussions has pretty much shaped my whole development as a Marth main

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Reading your discussions has pretty much shaped my whole development as a Marth main

Many of Umbreon's discourses have changed the way I've looked at Melee, period.

even if he is a douchenozzle

Smooth Criminal

 

[Deleted member]

i admit that i've been really happening listening to the big house 3 stream with the commentators talking about the neutral game and conversions, which are terms i basically came up with because i didn't know how else to describe them. makes me really proud of myself tbh.

 

[Beat!]

@Mookie

I watched the grand finals set, but I don't have much to add. I find myself once again questioning your regular usage of WD back -> dash forward in the neutral game. It does have a benefit over dashdancing, namely that you're facing your opponent at all times, but it comes at the cost of reducing your momentum forward and your movement overall and I don't think the trade-off is worth it. I heavily prefer dashdancing.

I guess you could be a little more aggressive when edgeguarding. Sometimes you can just jump out and hit the other Marth, instead of trying to time fsmash or dtilt when they up-B.

 

[MookieRah]

I watched the grand finals set, but I don't have much to add. I find myself once again questioning your regular usage of WD back -> dash forward in the neutral game. It does have a benefit over dashdancing, namely that you're facing your opponent at all times, but it comes at the cost of reducing your momentum forward and your movement overall and I don't think the trade-off is worth it. I heavily prefer dashdancing.

I'm going to try removing it from my play for a bit so I get more accustomed with my dash dancing. I've pretty much been using wavedash back -> stuff since my Mewtwo days, so it's hard for me to stop doing it. I see it as something that is definitely hurting me now.

I guess you could be a little more aggressive when edgeguarding. Sometimes you can just jump out and hit the other Marth, instead of trying to time fsmash or dtilt when they up-B.

My edge guarding is still pretty bad. It has been and often still is my weakest point with Marth for a long time, but I've been working on it extensively for a while. I'll try to go offstage against people more often in the future. I need to be able to identify when it is safe to do it so that I can go for it.

Thanks again for going through all those matches. I know it's a lot of work to examine 40 minutes or so worth of matches critiquing. I very much appreciate it!

 

[Bones0]

If you want to dash forward after WDing back, simply add a quick dash back in between to nullify your WD momentum.
/Cactuaradvice

 

[Dark Lady]

What is the total frames of Marth's wavedash?