Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[FrootLoop]

only on reaction

 

[Niko45]

Dolphin slash oos is crazy good I wish I was better with it

 

[FrootLoop]

resetting the position is better like 100% of the time

 

[Deleted member]

mm even i'm not so sure about that one.

i will say that up B oos gets a lot better if you're willing to put a WD in there for placement. so like shield > wd back > up B. i guess you could WD in for it but idk when that would even come up.

i generally think of marth's up B as his 4th best way of killing, after "you can't have my stage", dair, and fsmash.

 

[Deathconsciousness]

hay peepee what kind of music do you like

 

[FrootLoop]

As a reaction punish it's great. Random upB is like the most coin flip thing marth can do and probably not even a fair flip at that. I don't see the strengths when compared to wavedash back --> marth's neutral. Care to explain?

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, I would never up-B OoS unless I was sure it would hit. It wrecks most fthrow DI attempts.

 

[Deleted member]

hay peepee what kind of music do you like

porn and screaming children and their respective dubstep remixes

also justin timberlake instrumentals so we can sing that shit in the car

also pokemon soundtracks

 

[Sacredtwin11]

Umbreon everytime I see your avatar I think of how cute and innocent and funny Morgan is in Awakening and then look at your posts and see how decidedly not cute and not innocent but funny they are.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZm9xYkcblY​

Any opinions? Technical errors are my biggest thought.​

 

[Deleted member]

your tech skill has nothing to do with anything.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

umbreon once again fails to expand upon on things lol

 

[Bones0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZm9xYkcblY
Any opinions? Technical errors are my biggest thought.

I'm guessing you are "Velx", but it doesn't matter either way. You both seem to base your entire strategy on reading the opponent. You can't just throw out attacks based on where you think they will go unless it's something safe like dtilt, late fair/uair, or AC nair. Even your movement seems to be based on hard reads about what the opponent will do. The most cringeworthy thing was you both dash attacking each other's shields over and over... just grab please. That's directly related to the reading problem though. It's like you're expecting them to move OoS at a certain time and want to hit them, but if you're wrong you get destroyed (or should, anyway), and if you're right you don't get much more than a grab would have gotten you anyway.

A good exercise to work on not reading would be keeping track of your hit ratio at the results screen. Only attack when you are absolutely sure you can hit them, and if they might shield it, go for a grab. It's obviously extreme, but it will help get you in the mentality of swinging efficiently (since extra sword swings are the easiest way to get yourself killed). Just play as reactionary as possible. That doesn't mean DD camp and only play defensively. You can close in on their space like normal, but you want to invade their space with the threat of your sword rather than your actual sword (PP was talking about this earlier). In the spirit of this exercise, I would ban dash attacks unless your opponent is in the air getting comboed, ban counter entirely, and I don't want to say no fsmashes, but you had better not be whiffing many. None of this ending juggles with hard read fsmash BS. Those moves in particular encourage a lot of hard reading. Stick with moves that are more reactionary like dtilt. Poke them if you see them enter your space on the ground, or poke their shield and react to their OoS option with some IASA action.

 

[Beat!]

- You fthrow too much. Uthrow is your friend, and sometimes dthrow. Fthrow has its uses, but in general it only "leads" to gimmicks.
- As Bones pointed out, lots of bad dash attacks. In fact, you dash attacked pretty much every time if more than a second went by without any action.
- A bunch of knee-jerk fsmashes. Don't get impatient. Always stay focused and think about when and why you make certain decisions.
- Related to the last point. The combo at 3:04 started out great and could've lead to a long and beautiful juggle, but instead you lost your patience and went for an fsmash, which missed. If finishers aren't guaranteed, don't try to force them. Just keep your opponent in the air with uairs, fairs and uptilts. Juggling is Marth's forte.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Pick better options for punishes. I've seen RRR now miss an up B which you punished with a grab (I'm pretty sure you could've done something better), he countered at the ledge while you did nothing and then punished with F-tilt which still got countered. Better to just F-smash tipper him there since he was near the edge. Then he fully charges a D-smash out of range which you fail to punish.
Take your time for these sure-fire punishes and make sure you know what you want to do and don't think too much about what you SHOULD do. Can you get a tipper punish? Go for it.
And stop dash attacking all the time. I like the spaced ones sometimes, but the point blank ones...
When he's above you, stay below him. Don't try to punish his actual landing, keep juggling him in the air, or if you don't, bait him into something, but don't let him back to the ground after you get him in the air for free. A tip for juggling: Don't jump up until you notice him doing his double jump. If you jump while he can still DJ, you lose your positioning, just stay grounded and U-tilt if he comes down without jumping, or jump U-air if he does.

I did like your dash dance game though, it netted you quite a few grabs when you didn't go for the dash attack.

 

[Kadano]

We can go into nair use more in this thread if that's what you guys want to do.

Has anyone here tried using dash forward → shorthop back ac nair? It seems fairly safe if done correctly.

Here is an example in half speed:

Youtube screwed the video up a bit, so here is a mediafire link: http://www.mediafire.com/download/32ce9kvucti6hgh/ImageSource_Fraps30.mp4

Edit: Of course no Fox will ever keep shielding like that, but I couldn’t find anything he could do out of shield that would turn the situation to his favor, so going on with it until you see him roll out or something might be quite good.

 

[Divinokage]

Has anyone here tried using dash forward → shorthop back ac nair? It seems fairly safe if done correctly.

Here is an example in half speed:

Youtube screwed the video up a bit, so here is a mediafire link: http://www.mediafire.com/download/32ce9kvucti6hgh/ImageSource_Fraps30.mp4

Edit: Of course no Fox will ever keep shielding like that, but I couldn’t find anything he could do out of shield that would turn the situation to his favor, so going on with it until you see him roll out or something might be quite good.

Wavedash inside to whatever he wants?

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Interesting. May have to use this instead of landing fairs. Maybe even combine these with shield stops

Wavedash inside to whatever he wants?

Only if he hard reads you're going to do another nair. I don't think a fox wants to wavedash oos towards a neutral Marth.

 

[Kadano]

Wavedash inside to whatever he wants?

That was my first guess too, but assuming reaction times of less than 12 frames, dashing away as soon as he drops the shield and playing the reaction game should escape all Fox can do out of wd.

Still, it’s probably better against characters that have no shine. Captain Falcon maybe?

 

[Divinokage]

That was my first guess too, but assuming reaction times of less than 12 frames, dashing away as soon as he drops the shield and playing the reaction game should escape all Fox can do out of wd.

Still, it’s probably better against characters that have no shine. Captain Falcon maybe?

Ya I guess you can let go of your shield and gtfo but id rather smother the **** out of Marth than play the spacing game as Fox too. How long do you have to wait before you start getting super punished with Marth setups? lol. Often enough if you get grabbed, you waited too long or you weren't moving correctly. You can also jump out of nair for sure or probably trade it with a smash attack.

 

[Dr Peepee]

hay peepee what kind of music do you like

why do you ask?

Kadano, I think that Nair can be okay but I generally don't like moving near people with Nair(when closeish) since the risk is pretty high on it if you whiff at all. If you're pretty certain people will shield then I think it's cool to do sometimes and instills fear, but it would be a mixup within my larger stand there and sometimes do or don't do movement to scare them plan lol.

 

[6VI6]

Has anyone here tried using dash forward → shorthop back ac nair? It seems fairly safe if done correctly.

Here is an example in half speed:

Youtube screwed the video up a bit, so here is a mediafire link: http://www.mediafire.com/download/32ce9kvucti6hgh/ImageSource_Fraps30.mp4

Edit: Of course no Fox will ever keep shielding like that, but I couldn’t find anything he could do out of shield that would turn the situation to his favor, so going on with it until you see him roll out or something might be quite good.

I've got a question for you Kadano:

Does shield stun last as long as the bubbles are present where Marth's nair (or any other attack) hits the shield?

 

[Kadano]

You can also jump out of nair for sure or probably trade it with a smash attack.

I looked into it a bit more and with that spacing, upsmash trade is only possible if the Fox uses shield SDI. Which isn’t all that hard, so I guess even a perfectly spaced nair is still bad against Fox in neutral. But it was worth the try for me.

Kadano, I think that Nair can be okay but I generally don't like moving near people with Nair(when closeish) since the risk is pretty high on it if you whiff at all. If you're pretty certain people will shield then I think it's cool to do sometimes and instills fear, but it would be a mixup within my larger stand there and sometimes do or don't do movement to scare them plan lol.

I see. How do you feel about using it against characters like Falcon, Dr. Mario and Ganon?

I've got a question for you Kadano:

Does shield stun last as long as the bubbles are present where Marth's nair (or any other attack) hits the shield?

No, that bubble animation has got nothing to do with it. Shield stun lasts as long as you can read “guarddamage” at the top.

 

[MT_]

The nair looks like it'd be vulnerable to WD back after the first nair. Any subsequent nairs will be DD grabbed unless they are done via hard fade away (which these are not); that being said, it might not be a bad idea when you have your opponent cornered and they have no room to retreat with. Even then though, I feel like a full hop nair would stuff this, which is not uncommon from cornered spacies (fullhopping to escape).

Worth exploring, but doesn't seem to be any better than just dtilting and thus probably will only become something to use as a mix up.

 

[MT_]

Kadano, do you think you could run another test for me? =D

It's with regard to Sheik's needles on shield. The specific situation is here after PP respawns:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kREm4Bsw58M#t=19m38s

I'm unsure how much shield stun needles provide. In this case, PP grabs M2K before M2K is able to grab PP (maybe port priority had something to do with that?), but as far as I know aerial needles have no additional landing lag (so 4 frames). If needles do more than 4 frames of shield stun then is this just an execution error by M2K's part? Or is shield grabbing needles a legit thing? Of course this is going to have to take into consideration the height at which the last needle was thrown (having more needles charged would let you begin throwing them at a higher height I would assume). Could you test the lowest height at which needles can come out? And if that is not able to be shield grabbed, how tight is the window for Sheik to throw low needles so that she can safely needle->grab your shield (given that there is some range where needle->grab has frame advantage over shield grab).

And then maybe test needle->jab too if you have time, since that is Sheik's fastest ground move lol.

<3 Kadano

 

[Divinokage]

I see. How do you feel about using it against characters like Falcon, Dr. Mario and Ganon?

If only I could explain it better.. I kinda like Marth using their Nair as a approach or defense, it gives me the time to either shield grab -> setup or just hit them above their hitbox. If it's used in succession well, im normally out of there after the first one if its blocked.. you can probably uair it before the 2nd one comes out, having perfect spacing with Nair doesnt sound very good... meaning I dont believe a good Marth will go for something like that.

 

[Kadano]

I'm unsure how much shield stun needles provide.

3 frames. But as they are projectiles, hitlag only happens for the victim, so it can be seen as prolonged shield stun.
Unstaled needles do 4 frames hitlag, so total lag for the victim is 7 frames.
To calculate Sheik’s lag, we first take the 4 frames landing lag and then add all frames Sheik was still airborne while the last needle hit the shield. This is at least 1 and at most 3 if you neglect cases where Sheik runs out of needles.
Why 3? Because Sheik produces another needle every 3 frames. So in the worst case for her, she hits your shield with a needle, then spends another 2 frames airborne, then lands and has 0 frame advantage. In this case, port priority determines who gets the grab.

In this case, PP grabs M2K before M2K is able to grab PP (maybe port priority had something to do with that?)

Yes, port priority was carried out there. Still, at that time M2K’s needles were staled in slot 3, so hitlag was 3 instead of 4. Thus the 3 cases changed: in the best one, he still had 1 frame advantage, but in the next one he had no advantage and in the last one even 1 frame disadvantage. As he had the lower port, the odds were against him. He ended up with the 0 frame advantage outcome if I’m not mistaken. As neither player dropped a frame, PP won the situation due to his port 1.

Needle grabbing does seem to be legit, but I’d rather opt for an occasional sidestep if either you don’t have a winning port or needle is completely unstale.

Could you test the lowest height at which needles can come out? And if that is not able to be shield grabbed, how tight is the window for Sheik to throw low needles so that she can safely needle->grab your shield (given that there is some range where needle->grab has frame advantage over shield grab).

Needles can come out as long as Sheik is airborne. The window is 1 frame and repeats every 3 frames for every charged needle. You can still grab her even if she shoots as low as possible if her needle stale mod is 0.75 or less AND you have port priority.

And then maybe test needle->jab too if you have time, since that is Sheik's fastest ground move lol.

As jab hits on frame 2, it’s guaranteed in all of the above cases where frame advantage was at least 1 (not 2 because Marth has no move to escape in 1 frame). As sidestep doesn’t really get Marth anywhere, needle → jab is pretty much always possible on shield.

<3 Kadano

:3

 

[Jim Morrison]

Can you wavedash OoS after the FIRST hit of N-air? Like can you go below the hitbox if Marth's tries to AC the N-air?

 

[Dr Peepee]

friggin port priority

the closest shaves with mashing shield grab like a noob lmao

 

[Kadano]

Can you wavedash OoS after the FIRST hit of N-air? Like can you go below the hitbox if Marth's tries to AC the N-air?

With Fox? No.

 

[Divinokage]

Ill just throw it out there that Ganon will always be a difficult one for Marth. Those guys at Toronto felt it very hard.. lol. I still believe it's relatively even, it sucks I'm the only one who can show that at high level because I have to have my own opinion so if people disagree with me, it's hard to convince them otherwise.

 

[BTmoney]

I find Marth vs Ganon better than either spacie vs Ganon. I don't think I've ever experienced a Ganon opening me up without me committing first unnecessarily, I don't know how Ganon forces Marth into any sort of bad situation from neutral. What does he do about DD grab and dtilt?

I also learned today that Marth is by far best character when he's the only one I don't practice lol, I just read the boards.

 

[MT_]

godly frame stuff

You are a god as always, thank you! Lots of stuff to think about regarding this data. Less needles = Sheik must needle lower if she wants frame advantage. Further, it seems up-B OoS will soundly beat needle->grab (but not needle->jab). Sucks to hear that she still does have frame advantage given non-staled needles... better start plugging into P1.

 

[BTmoney]

If anyone has anything to say about my Marth, here's a good video of it. Just one match :]
2:57:00
http://www.twitch.tv/sveetx/b/441300162
(if you want, the next match is me playing really bad vs. Sveet lol. But I'm not asking for anything about that match. I was playing horrible, and I know that. I didn't trust my uair spacing so my juggling was horrid.)

Really I want to know if I did anything horribly wrong and if I approached the MU correctly. Obvious errors are obvious.

But I am extremely happy with how much my movement has improved. It's the focal point of my Marth. I don't think my Marth is half bad for how long I been playing (and since I read/post/think about Marth way more than I practice the character. It's kinda cool seeing some of what I've thought and read up on turn into wins). I tried to do my best MT_ (vs Hax) impression (you played Marth amazingly vs. Hax). And I really like Umbreon's movement oriented Marth style. I didn't' do it quite justice but I see what he means.

 

[Deleted member]

it's a slow learning process.

i'll go into nair more tomorrow, but kadano's gif is still a strategically bad choice because fox has no incentive to ever block nair to begin with. free movement is what makes nair such a risky move from neutral.

umbreon once again fails to expand upon on things lol

marth's most important limbs are his feet.

 

[Divinokage]

I find Marth vs Ganon better than either spacie vs Ganon. I don't think I've ever experienced a Ganon opening me up without me committing first unnecessarily, I don't know how Ganon forces Marth into any sort of bad situation from neutral. What does he do about DD grab and dtilt?

I also learned today that Marth is by far best character when he's the only one I don't practice lol, I just read the boards.

He has a longer range dtilt, Ftilt (downwards/upwards too is good) knowing that, Marth's can't quite DD as effectively.. now they are in a position where they are likely to jump. If Marth is too close I have jab or CC -> jab/grab (Follow up depending on %) shield to uair. I also found out you can Nair OOS if Marth is point blank, it's actually pretty funny, even if its shielded, high chance of shield stab and 2 hits, it's also safe.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Those nairs are gdlk and don't let anyone tell you different

****ing demolishes Falcon

Its weak to WD back, but almost all of Marth's spaced pressure is (see: Leffen v PPU). Most ppl will attack OOS like scrubs tho so no woorrrieeess

 

[Divinokage]

Those nairs are gdlk and don't let anyone tell you different

****ing demolishes Falcon

Its weak to WD back, but almost all of Marth's spaced pressure is (see: Leffen v PPU). Most ppl will attack OOS like scrubs tho so no woorrrieeess

Lol, that's kinda bad advice. You are saying it's ok to do it as long as the level of the player is crappy, that doesn't follow the way of refining your play at all.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Lol, that's kinda bad advice. You are saying it's ok to do it as long as the level of the player is crappy, that doesn't follow the way of refining your play at all.

No, I'm saying its OK to do at all levels, and that shield pressure ought to be treated as a mixup, not as something you should just shrug off cause 1 out of a million options soft-counters it (its not even like they can punish after the WD back: they reset and lose stage positioning).

Every type of shield pressure has a hole. Its tilted in favor of the aggressor, but the defensive player has escape routes. Or else Melee would be faceroll garbage.

 

[MT_]

(its not even like they can punish after the WD back: they reset and lose stage positioning).

Not sure I agree with this. If Sheik or Fox (or essentially any character that has any relevant speed or is Falco) wavedashes back and you do that nair, you're going to get punished. Sheik's dash attack (or boost grab) will eat that up for sure, and Fox can definitely get a grab off of it (timing will be a little tight but it's easily feasible to punish consistently at mid-high level play). Falco will get free room to set up with lasers once you've done the retreating nair. Hell Peach might even be able to punish with dash attack, but she's such a bad character that I wouldn't be surprised if she couldn't LOL.

And WD back isn't uncommon, especially for Sheik and Peach. Anyways these are just my thoughts on the nair. I posted earlier that it could be used on a cornered opponent (no WD back room) but in center stage it seems to be... not that good. Dunno.

@Blacktician thanks lol. I think Hax caught onto my dumb nairs after a couple games and you can see me getting grabbed for them. Nair is askdfljasl;fkjal