Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Frame Perfect]

Whoa its antd. your TAS is ingenious

 

[Bones0]

For the sake of curiosity, here are the two frames of Marth's powershield with the shield bubble removed. Now you can see the true position of the powershield sphere on the second frame.

Frame 1 / Frame 2:

It is more downward.

Sakurai confirmed as biggest troll ever.

 

[Sozen the Phoenix]

I looked for a Q and A thread, couldn't find one, and figured I would give this place a shot. I'm looking for advice edgeguarding peach, puff, and sheik. Any help would be welcome
(If i'm asking in the wrong place can someone direct me to the right thread?)

 

[Xyzz]

You have come to the right place!

Well, Peach and Puff are somewhat tricky since they have a lot of aerial mobility and time before they have to come down. Try to patiently wait them out, threatening to go after them, but rarely if ever actually committing. Your best friends are back air and up air (if you can get a kill of that).
Sheik is pretty much about refreshing invincibility if necessary, so you can hold the ledge while she has to up b. Then punish her on stage landing lag (maybe hitting her off with a fsmash again? Or directly kill her with a tipper? Or set up some combo stuff with a dair? Lots of possibilities, which one is best is really situational. But yeah, keep in mind to hold the edge and force her onstage, and do some reverse ledge dash (or just rejump regrab) to be invincible if she happens to be in the position to fair you before her up b).

 

[Deleted member]

[Thu Jul 25 2013 01:19:34 AM] mycatgoesmow: can you actually imagine chaingrabbing a fox IRL
[Thu Jul 25 2013 01:19:44 AM] drpeepee f: LMFDGUFIBPJAE
[Thu Jul 25 2013 01:19:45 AM] drpeepee f: LOLLLL
[Thu Jul 25 2013 01:19:46 AM] mycatgoesmow: like taking an 8 lb mammal and throwing it over and over until it died
[Thu Jul 25 2013 01:19:51 AM] mycatgoesmow: gruesome
[Thu Jul 25 2013 01:19:53 AM] drpeepee f: LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

 

[Sacredtwin11]

Could anyone give me some tips on the ditto? I know dtilt is god and you generally wanna try juggling them to death, but all my uthrows don't convert into that much(probably cause I'm bad) and in the MM that my friend and I had, he generally used platforms to get around dtilt. I ended up losing game 1 and just went lolfalco to win, but my fire emblem fanboyism insists that I main marth and I like marth a lot as a character too.

 

[FrootLoop]

Marth's strength in a juggle situation is his speed and mobility advantage because he is on the ground. Marth is really excellent at hitting above him and pretty poor at hitting below him, so you also have better moves than he does. You can use these advantages to outmaneuver them in such a way that you can stuff their attempts to land with well placed sword swings such as up tilt or potentially a grab (this is fine because you can just up throw again =D). Your speed lets you out-dictate the relative positions of the marths as he falls, and your good up-moves ensure that you will win the air-to-air or the ground-to-air (whichever you deem better for the situation).

If he is trying to battle from the platforms, again abuse the fact that you have great up moves and he has bad down moves. Your speed advantage is not as big because he can move just as fast from the platform. However, his range of motion is severly limited to the size of the platform (which are all pretty tiny). You can abuse this to make swings that he cannot evade without taking to the air where he is much worse. Again the whole time you aren't really at risk of counterattack if you are careful because of his bad down-moves.

 

[Niko45]

You have to look at exactly why you're getting nothing off of uthrow. Are you chasing instantly and whiffing as he jumps out? If so, wait for his jump and then follow afterwards. If he's not jumping out right away then up tilt him for big combos.

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

2cents:

You want to wait until the have committed to something and punish with grab or dtilt. Pay attention to their hitlag whenever you are juggling them, if they are out of tumble wait until they get closer to the ground to uair/utilt or position yourself to have control again when they come down if you can't get anything. Empty hops are really good at baiting out side-bs and double jumps.

Sometimes I think nair is pretty good just to get favorable positioning on stage (aka hitting them close to the edge/offstage) if your uair/fair will hit them out of range of another punish. Although, Umbreon says nair is terrible, and he kinda knows what he's talking about.

 

[Niko45]

Nair absolutely ***** what da ***

 

[knightpraetor]

i actually spent like 40 posts trying to argue why nair is good, but then I finally went into the "video critique thread", saw what kind of nairs the average marth on the boards does, and now i think most marths are better off removing all the stupid approaching rising nairs in neutral that they do before they worry about figuring out where nair can actually be good.

nair definitely has its uses though.... I don't think Marth has any useless moves in his moveset...hardest one to make worthwhile is probably upsmash..

anyone know when upsmash can kill a floaty like jiggs/peach on YS?

 

[Bones0]

As long as you aren't mindlessly SHFFLing nairs towards people it's not bad at all. I played a TON of Marth vs. Marth/Sheik/spacies yesterday (more than I played Falco which is probably a first) and I really tried applying it more. I like doing the fadeaway defensive nairs instead of always going into DD mode because they still can't approach, but you also don't give up as much stage and on the off chance they do approach, you get a nair hit instead of a grab which can help out at those higher percents where your grabs aren't doing anything.

I think it's also underrated on shield. Even spaced double fairs don't seem to be reliable on shield anymore since people are so good at WDing out in between and certain characters even have large enough aerials that they can hit immediately OoS (Falcon's nair/uair, Marth's fair), but nair sort of abuses that instinct and ACing lets you do a quick DD to catch any OoS options after the second hit. Shield stopping makes these types of nairs even more ridiculous because it lets you have pinpoint precision and fade away with full momentum after a dash towards. Spaced AC nairs are basically spacie shield pressure only safer. If you can react to their OoS option or react to them just holding shield there's not much they can do.

I want to be able to shield stop jump back early fair, but I can't for the life of me press C-stick left/right immediately after jumping. I might have to start tap jumping just for those situations... /jellyofpeoplewhoclaw

I also tried using more pivot tippers and it pretty much wrecks any type of aerial zoning. Especially in dittos it was hilarious to see my opponent fade back fair, about to do a second fair, and I just go straight from a DD into an fsmash a split second later. It also helps out in covering certain platform options. Occasionally people land in such a way that you have to cover inside options with utilt and outside options with fsmash because fsmashing the inside options won't kill them off the other side, but if you can pivot you can wait in position to fsmash the inner option to the near side, and if they roll to the outside (which everyone seems to do when you're on the inside and seem so far away) you can pivot tipper them to the near side anyway.

It's also helpful to cover plat options in this way because it means you don't risk giving up stage control if something goes wrong. If you're too slow to react on a getup or they ground tech a utilt or something, they will often run right to the middle cutting off your path to center stage, but when you're already there and moving towards the edge only on reaction you will always be closer to the center than they are.

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

I've found dj nair is pretty good for covering platform tech options, then you can buffer a shield drop uair if they tech left or right. You usually can then follow that up with an immediate utilt => dair/nair/uair/grab. It seems pretty good.




Edit instead of double post:

Another noob question, Will tipper fair always lead into full jump dair at low/mid percents if you hit falco/fox out of their up-b since they are already holding the control stick either straight up or in?

 

[Bones0]

Another noob question, Will tipper fair always lead into full jump dair at low/mid percents if you hit falco/fox out of their up-b since they are already holding the control stick either straight up or in?

"Always" is a strong word in Melee, my friend.

 

[knightpraetor]

i thought you'd just respond with "no"...then explain how DI works...but ok

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

I did mean to say always. I know it would have a very high probability of working out, but I just wanted to know if it was guaranteed or if SDI or ASDI could mess it up.

I figured it wouldn't be, but there's no harm in asking all the data gurus that frequent these parts lol, but hey thanks for responding so quick!

 

[Deleted member]

Sometimes I think nair is pretty good just to get favorable positioning on stage (aka hitting them close to the edge/offstage) if your uair/fair will hit them out of range of another punish. Although, Umbreon says nair is terrible, and he kinda knows what he's talking about.

Nair is a fine move that has several diverse applications. Nair is only terrible for players with a flawed method of play since it's one of the easiest ways to commit in a way that is easily exploited.

Once you truly understand why I'm saying nair is terrible, you're welcome to work it back into your play.

We can go into nair use more in this thread if that's what you guys want to do.

 

[CyberZixx]

I like nair for ending combos when it will push people into a bad position off stage. Or to cover certain recoverys, namely when falcon goes high.

 

[Iron Dragon]

Everything I've ever seen of using nair on high Falcon recovery he can just DI it fine and then go high again. Now obviously if you can just keep hitting him until he dies (which if you get good enough you should be able to do no sweat) then it's not an issue, but for most it is.

The biggest thing with Falcon is that you want to gimp him as early as possible which is completely workable.

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

I'd love to discuss nair actually!

I don't use nair terribly much aside from finishing a combo high in the air or trying to cover tech options on platforms. Never really to approach, since it's so easy to beat.

Nair seems really strong in certain OoS situations though. For example, I like to Wd away pivot shield nair against sheild pressure if they are right on the back of my shield. Kind of to just knock them away, and fsmash is more punishable.

 

[Ijuka]

I don't have any videos recorded of this, sorry about that. I know it'd help.

I was at my friend's for the weekend and we played a lot of matches(150-200). He played with Sheik, Peach, Marth, Fox, Falco and Captain Falcon(Falco is his main) while I only played Marth. I lost in stars pretty heavily, I had about 65% of his and only won a handful of games. He's a pretty good player, I think he barely lost against Android in a set(1 stocks).

Especially against Falco, I mostly felt helpless. I try to play defensive / punish-style, but his SHLs just totally mess me up. I tried to full jump over them, but he was really good at SHLing my landing, and that's 40%+ every time(I don't think he ever dropped a combo). Sometimes I did get across, but if I for example Faired him, it every time was met with a CCC Shine and again into 40%+. That was the primary problem - I could outmanouver him by platformwavelanding and coming down with a bait, for example, but he just CCC Shined everything he possibly could and it felt like I couldn't do anything. All I really had that felt reliable was grab or catching him when he was jumping. I did shieldwavedash in between SHLs a bit but i didn't feel like it accomplished much as I was met with another laser and a shield pressure chain after the wavedashing lag.

When I predicted him to approach with a jump, for example after SHL, I did SHFF Nair and when it catched him it functioned great, going into a grab or some other follow up or at the very least tech chase. However, I missed plenty of them when I guessed wrong as well, and got punished for it. That's what I feel like was a problem here - I was always forced into guessing, and he didn't even need to approach in the first place. I feel like he mixed up approaching and not approaching pretty well, so I didn't feel like I could reliably use counter because it's just a tiny bit of damage with no potential followup.

I also tried wavedash back -> down tilt or just down tilt from standing. It worked some times, while other times he just jumped over it and I got heavily punished. I also tried just semi-random grabs, and they worked out pretty well. Off grabs I mostly got heavy punishes, on FD I had several 0-95% combos and even 3-stocked him once there. On platform stages I chainthrowed until platform and then did short hop uair tech chasing repeatedly and that also racked up a ton of damage and eventually a tipper. However, I didn't land a clean hit nearly often enough for that to be too significant and it was mostly me getting kicked around.

Primarily I want to know, how to deal with intelligent use of SHLing and how to deal with every single thing possible(and impossible) being CCCd into shine? Spacing properly might have been the answer, and I think my spacing was all right at times, but the thing is that when he's at a distance where he cannot CCC Shine, he can just do a retreating SHL for instance, or even just CCC Down Smash instead. How to turn it into something other than gambling on when he's going to jump and if he doesn't jump get punished? I did all right when I could dash dance -> grab his landing for example but those situations just didn't come up nearly as often as I would have liked.


Oh right, and his primary shield pressure was aerial -> waveshine behind me -> shine -> whatever and mostly CCC Shine if I tried to aerial. Would appreciate tips for this. For example if he at the end does shine -> turnaround grab I'm like "yeah, sure." Best I got is rolling forward after the first shine although I'm not sure I like the position that puts me in and it can get predictable.

 

[Iron Dragon]

Just by reading the last part I can tell you with 99% certainty that the aerial -> waveshine behind you is not safe. Between the shine and the wavedash after it I'm pretty sure you can reliably WD oos fsmash and catch him.

I'll let Bones/PP/Umbreon chime in more about Falco vs Marth as I think they have a greater general knowledge about it, but a lot of it comes down to attempting to force him to approach with an aerial and when he does CC grab it or WD back grab on a badly spaced approach. Other than that you just sorta have to be patient and make every hit count. You should be able to zero to death him every/almost every time you grab him. Get him off stage because he sucks there. I don't have much else here I just wanted to chime in on the first thing I said haha.

 

[Ijuka]

Hmm that is possible, thing is that I need to be sure that he does just that variation(he did do other stuff at times) but perhaps I should just take the risk and gamble like that a bit more instead of trying to be sure about everything.


For gimping off throw, is dtilt spam for fast doublejump(into airdodge) -> jump off and react to forward B the way to go? I didn't get nearly as many gimps as I should have when I just tried to stay on the ground, I think that's a significant part of why it didn't go so well. At higher %s I had no issues edgeguarding every option...

I really am not sure though how I should force Falco to approach and it's not like he leaves room for grabs when he goes for CCC, it's like he never stops to crouch except the moment I hit him. He's always CCCd everything without it making any sense and I don't see anyone else doing this.

I really want to try some new things and have a better gameplan so I can adapt and do better when we play the next time...

 

[Iron Dragon]

That is certainly the idea you want to keep in mind when playing. Play to learn.

 

[Beat!]

I try to play defensive / punish-style, but his SHLs just totally mess me up.

Primarily I want to know, how to deal with intelligent use of SHLing

Learn crouch PS and dash away PS. Marth's shield mechanics allow for very easy powershields out of those.

Powershielding is not the end-all solution to lasers, but they take away Falco's free ticket to stage control and force him to actually be a little more cautious. This gives you more room to utilize your movement

I tried to full jump over them, but he was really good at SHLing my landing,

Yeah, full jumping is a no-go against a grounded opponent. As a rule of thumb, you don't want to jump at all before your opponent gets off the ground. Marth's air vs ground game is pretty weak.

Sometimes I did get across, but if I for example Faired him, it every time was met with a CCC Shine

You're not spacing the fair well enough if he can land a CC shine punish. Try to hit with the tip of the sword.

Dtilts are also good against CCing opponents, but just like the fairs, make sure that they're well spaced, or all those CC shenanigans will ruin your day.

A third option against CC is to just grab. Landing grabs also happens to be what wins the matchup for Marth, so never forget that option.

When I predicted him to approach with a jump, for example after SHL, I did SHFF Nair and when it catched him it functioned great, going into a grab or some other follow up or at the very least tech chase. However, I missed plenty of them when I guessed wrong as well, and got punished for it. That's what I feel like was a problem here - I was always forced into guessing,

Nair can indeed be a viable option in those situations, but you need to look at every situation individually, because even though two situations may look identical at first glance, there are tons of factors to take into consideration.
- Are you pushed into a corner? Then maybe you should roll instead, and suddenly the roles are reversed and your opponent is in a terrible position because of his overcommitment.
- Do you have a lot of space to work with and no real reason to try to force things? Then maybe you should WD back and reset the position to neutral, or even get a grab if he goes through with the aerial approach and lands where you previously stood.
- Will nair lead into something else or send him offstage, and are you certain that you'll at least get a trade? Then nair may indeed be what you should go for.

The above are just some examples of things to take into consideration. Always evaluate everything that happens by asking why? Why did nair work then, but not now? Why did my grab whiff last time, but work now? Sometimes the simple conclusion may just be that it's essentially a guessing situation, in which case you need to heavily consider whether it's actually the best option, but sometimes it may turn out that what you previously thought was a 50/50 guess is actually something that depends on some subtle factors you hadn't paid attention to earlier.

it's like he never stops to crouch except the moment I hit him.

Sounds like you're being too predictable and he's capitalizing on it. This is probably largely because your issues with lasers make you throw out things in desperation whenever you see an opening. Work on dealing with lasers (see above) and you won't feel as limited.



I have some stuff regarding gimping as well, but I need to go, so this will have to do for now.

 

[007-jake]

Soo, I main marth (obviously by my fanboy avatar). The best way to get past falco's lasers, IMO, is simply to powershield. Powershielding isn't as hard as it seems, especially with marth. Just crouch and press shield right when the laser would be inside your shield range, but not quite hitting marth. It's easy to get at least 70% of lasers powershielded that way. I actually like to just stand across the stage against a falco so he can give me free lasers. A good falco will start shooting really low lasers, at which point you can just jump over them and forward b your way closer to falco, but not close enough for him to punish you.

Edit: guy above me already said to powershield.

 

[knightpraetor]

does upthrow ever combo ganon legitimately? or can he always jump out? Just wondering if anyone has any setups off upthrow that they like on FD..i just techchase or throw him on platforms usually

 

[Sozen the Phoenix]

I was watching a set between hbox and pewpewu, and either toph or scar said that marth had a chain grab on jiggly puff. All he said about it was that you had to guess the di. Can anyone elaborate on this more?

 

[Bones0]

I was watching a set between hbox and pewpewu, and either toph or scar said that marth had a chain grab on jiggly puff. All he said about it was that you had to guess the di. Can anyone elaborate on this more?

If they DI towards you after an fthrow or dthrow you can regrab. I think there are details in Kadano's thread, but maybe he didn't put in CGing stuff.

 

[FrootLoop]

does upthrow ever combo ganon legitimately? or can he always jump out? Just wondering if anyone has any setups off upthrow that they like on FD..i just techchase or throw him on platforms usually

Not a combo, but if he jumps away just hit him later. There's some weird %'s where he can hit you while your in throw animation but a bit above those %'s up throw is ez wins. dthrow is probably ez wins too. ganon is awful

 

[ArcNatural]

Ijuka,

If you want my two cents on Falco vs Marth. Literally one of the better things I think you can learn to do in the matchup is how to move again.

Learn to minimize your shield time as much as possible. Try to only shield right as the laser would hit you, and regardless of if you powershield immediately wavedash out. Do this for aerials or in spacies case aerial -> shine as well. Don't even worry about hitting him. Just learn the timings of wavedashing out of everything. He lasers into you? Wait for the shine then wavedash out, he hit you? wait for the rising aerial after the shine and wavedash out.

Utilize platforms to get movement, you don't even need to approach. Jumping onto a platform and wavedashing down to drop through fastfall fair or something is just as effective.

IMO you really should just spam wavedashing and minimizing shield time until you are disgusted with it. But once you get the knack of how, where, and when you can wavedash and then start implementing it to your offense and defense it pays off HUGE dividends. Falco will have a much harder time locking you down and doing his staple approaches. You'll realize that even the act of trying to wavedash out of things will get you out of combos that they may have hit you with typically, because you are simply not in the position they expected you to be in.

A lot of my posts regarding learning new things always boil down to movement and being able to do what you want with movement involved. Also keeping your focus on trying to learn what you want to learn. It's just as important to learn when not to do things rather than just doing them correctly IMO and the only way to do that is to simply try it out ALL THE TIME, until you really understand the ins and outs of what you are doing.

 

[Deleted member]

from a marth perspective it would do you well to learn to use your shield as little as possible anyway, tbh marth's shield options kinda suck for the most part and his movement is amazing in every MU, not just vs falco.

 

[007-jake]

Also, counter OOS is pretty good against falco, if you aren't obvious with it. Counter and forward b are a bit underused by the majority of marths IMO. His counter is also good near the ledge against falco when falco tries to do the ledge double laser recovery.

 

[CyberZixx]

I only like counter for certain obvious spacie up b recovery's.

 

[Jus(ten) Pika Mode]

Anyone have tips on the falco vs ICs matchup? Been having trouble with it lately ;s

 

[007-jake]

I only like counter for certain obvious spacie up b recovery's.

Thus confirming my claims that counter is underused. Of course the most practical usage of counter is against spacie recoveries, but when you're being pressured or you just know for sure that falco is about to come at you with a shffl'd dair, counter or counter OOS. Of course don't abuse it and become predictable, but it does catch falcos off guard a lot. Once you land that counter, it can put them in a reallly bad position and lead to you tech-chasing, grab, combo, death.

 

[007-jake]

Anyone have tips on the falco vs ICs matchup? Been having trouble with it lately ;s

Go Fox? trolol

 

[knightpraetor]

I use walk off counter and for spots where marth is in a bad come down situation where his odds of getting hit are above 50%.

however, counter sucks out of shield during shield pressure unless they are using the type where they give you a lot of space...and if they are doing that..you should just wavedash out of shield and back into neutral unless the counter would actually put them off stage. even then..if they are leaving gaps in their shield pressure where you can counter OOS you could also just aerial out of shield to take control.

i used to think counter was good in shield pressure till I played some better players..couldn't get it to come out, went on the boards, asked for frame data, and found out that it's too slow to work properly. I forget the exact data but i remember that the # of frames you need to get it out is pretty bad

Everything I've ever seen of using nair on high Falcon recovery he can just DI it fine and then go high again. Now obviously if you can just keep hitting him until he dies (which if you get good enough you should be able to do no sweat) then it's not an issue, but for most it is.

The biggest thing with Falcon is that you want to gimp him as early as possible which is completely workable.

wanted to comment on this because i got my first night of marth vs falcon practice against a falcon that went better than 50% on my marth ( i think i lost like 70% or maybe 80).

I used to think nairing them off stage on a high recovery was fine, but unless they are past 130 or something, you really should be going for fair..and not just any fair..it's not even worth it if you fair unless you commit heavily and plan to carry them offstage..depending on Di and recovery angle they can make it impossible to get anything decent unless you commit heavily into the fair.

Bigger thing I learned though now that I'm thinking about it is that i kept dropping kills because I would hit the first fair and they would end up below and to the side and then i would drop fair and then up b but then i would be on the ledge with them recovering high and have to bair/nair on stage and then go off again.

i think it's important to be ready to drop and up b falcon's recovery after any off stage fair cause if you fair again you are often letting him live

other than that i didn't learn much except that side b/fsmash pullbacks can be annoying. I will work out some way to be safer against such soon hopefully

 

[CyberZixx]

How does everyone feel about Dolphin Slash OOS? I was watching mango make good use of it last night on stream. It's not an option I ever see Marth's use. In the situations he would use it's i'd always grab. Turns out dolphin slash is 2 frames faster startup and leads to knocking them offstage each time on mid to higher percents. Downside is the long recovery time of the move and if you whiff it.

 

[knightpraetor]

it's really good..but i never remember to use it..it's something you can't spam, but why is it I always forget to use it when I should. I abuse it a lot vs floaties