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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

Niko45

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,220
Location
Westchester, NY
Oh I'm sorry I didn't realize you guys were talking about baiting with CCs I was thinking of just DIing down in general.

And the jab thing...yea I just don't get it so I'll let it go. I understand what you're saying at least about conditioning intimidating people into letting you do unsafe things and getting away with it.

I will mention in general that across all matchups if I am in the mood to do something punishable on my opponent's shield I like to utilt since if it catches them coming out I get paid big time.
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
i tend to prefer to use uptilt just out of range of their shield, they tend to try to bair me out of shield then and eat the 2nd uptilt....it shouldn't work, but it's really hard for them to know if the bair is in range..or assuming they wavedash out, whether they can grab me before the next uptilt or whether they need to be shielding...

about the jab on IC, i think we need to distinguish between crouch canceling and just canceling...

CCing is not a threat to marth from ice climbers..i agree with that..they aren't going to just sit there and CC unless you are just really bad at spacing..

but the problem is that holding down while wavedashing/dashing if you hold down on the cstick/control stick you get the canceling effect of automatic smash DI down, which combined with moves that send you upward reduces the stun at low percents...so at low percents even if they are wavedashing out of shield there is no reason they couldn't get an ASDI down and then come after you again in the jab lag.

However, the one good thing is that ASDI effects last a lot shorter length of time than actual crouching, so I don't think it will work very long..definitely not past 30%..perhaps less
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
I love jab. I think a lot of people try to use it for things it isn't good for which is why it may seem useless. It's also a lot different than the jabs of all the other characters. Most chars use jab to safely link two things that normally wouldn't link (like Mario's jab dsmash or w/e), or they use it to protect themselves from shield grabs after landing an aerial. Marth can't link anything out of his jab, and he can just space to avoid shield grabs, so in that sense it's pretty worthless. I've found much more promise in jabbing people out of jumping approaches to force them into shield. It's just natural for people to shield after they get jabbed out of a SHFFL or something because they can't really move quickly. So they land from the jab and have to make a decision OoS or else you just run up and grab them. The icing on the cake is that jab usually pushes them right into tipper range, so none of their OoS options are usually a threat to you, but you are an extreme threat to them with dtilt, ftilt, fsmash. I would definitely say jab is pretty bad when your opponent is grounded though. Outside of the potential for CCCing, they may shield it in which case you just gave up your pressure as they can safely get away, and because the jab didn't hit, they very well may be able to hit you with an OoS option.

@PP
I don't have any solid Sheik exp so this may not work vs. better players, but I played a Sheik that loved to spam dash attack, and I found that when DDing max distance wasn't really cutting it, it was easier to do if I did an autocancel nair or some other aerial first. I would just autocancel nair out of range, then he would just approach assuming I would stay where I landed, but I would just DD back immediately and catch him. I see M2K do this a lot too, so it should be pretty solid. lol


Can anyone give me a general breakdown for DIing vs. Sheik? Really just dthrow and ftilt... I'm guessing there's no real escape out of most dthrow stuff, but I can always work to minimize the damage. So far I've just learned not to DI above her after a dthrow at ~100% because I get tipper usmashed, but then of course DIing in front of her gets me faired. :|
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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Bones: Yeah I gotta get used to all kinds of Sheiks. I'm used to Twitch who won't approach even if I do that lmao. That's a good idea for when I fight Sheiks that wanna punish me more haha. Good idea.
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
so, you bring up a good point bones..you be the one to test...according to my testing ages ago marth should be able to jump out of sheik's regrab, but i get regrabbed by redd's sheik a lot...moreover, i saw the exact same thing happen to pp when he played redd's sheik...of the DIs that place you in front of sheik is there no DI that avoid's the regrab? is there a difference between DI up and DI neutral...the goal of course is to get as high as possible to make it hard to regrab.

The reason I ask this is that I would like to DI neutral and then just DI the low % ftilt and sheik gets nothing at low percent then...but if it's not possible then all of us should be using DI up and in or down and in (do the same thing roughly)

and end up behind and above sheik where she can uptilt....however, sheik can get under you in that situation, so it's vastly preferable to be able to neutral DI and jump out. Am I just slow? is pp just slow at jump timing? or is it just impossible..these are the questions that keep me from sleeping at night;p
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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Aug 31, 2005
Messages
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Jarrettsville, MD
Not sure about any specifics on chain grabbing. The Sheik I played never regrabs. lol When I play as Sheik, it seems like I can only get the regrab when Marth DIs away, putting him lower, but I haven't really tested it. I didn't realize Sheiks ever when for regrabs on Marth above like 10% where it feels guaranteed.

protip: Whenever you are trying to DJ out of something asap, use Y + Up on the control stick, one right after the other. It's basically like mashing jump, but obviously way faster because you could press Y and hit Up the very next frame, whereas that's not even physically possible if you're just pressing Y. If you're even more unsure about when you'll be out of stun (useful for when you get sent flying after you bounce against a wall like the tree on PS), you can just press Y again (Y+Up+Y).
 

Niko45

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,220
Location
Westchester, NY
Pretty sure sheik can regrab at 0. She can regrab for quite a while on DI away so you want to DI behind her but then she's going to utilt you and I'm not positive what is the best DI for that. Ftilt you always want to DI away.
 

Teczer0

Research Assistant
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Pretty sure sheik can regrab at 0. She can regrab for quite a while on DI away so you want to DI behind her but then she's going to utilt you and I'm not positive what is the best DI for that. Ftilt you always want to DI away.
Usually if I get grabbed by sheik I hold DI in and mash back and fair. Her uptilt sends you nearly completely up so just hold a direction and you should be okay.
 

ArcNatural

Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
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Dthrow usmash isn't guaranteed if you DI in? O_o

I saw this earlier.
M2k actually DI'd too far to the side to jump out there, not full DI away obviously but too far from Sheik's head. I'm pretty sure if he was closer to Sheik's head he could of jumped out of that (but then leaves himself open to uptilt/etc.)

I've always been able to get out of the CG at low percentages by DI'ing slightly behind Sheik and doing overB or jumping out. Good Sheiks can still follow up though and I usually try to smash DI the tilt.
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
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Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
i'm pretty sure magus told me a long time ago that upsmash is supposed to be guaranteed but sheiks need to slight dash JC into it instead of just standing there..but i dunno

yeah went into training mode again and looked at the dthrow at 0, and then went on youtube and looked at the hitbox animation for sheik's grab...

there is no way that can possibly catch marth..i just don't get it..i get grabbed at zero a lot, is my timing just that bad..but pp missed it too..

i'm curious if DI up has any effect on the dthrow. if so that would be the best DI at low percents...sheik's throw looks like it has a slight horizontal component, so I would think so, but when i try up, it doesn't seem to have a noticeable difference.

i used to do what arcnatural said, but in my opinion the uptilt combos marth so much better than ftilt that I really want to be able to stay on the other side of sheik

edit:

just went through a 1 hr training session with lvl 1 comps...it really makes you wonder, how can people play marth and not see that all that untapped potential that is not being shown in pro vids...exhausted metagame? more like exhausted creativity
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
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Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
but regardless i am not that worried about upsmashes from sheik. it's too hard to react to marth's di and do it, so they usually only get that when they hard predict
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
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Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
they should hit you before the side b if they are not trying to grab..don't get me wrong, i do this sometimes since i can still DI their hit while going for this..but it really shouldn't work..sheiks are just bad
 

Ballin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 29, 2009
Messages
122
Here are my thoughts about Marth's different colors.

I feel that Black Marth is pretty standard. He does what a Marth is supposed to do with the grabs and Fair --> F smash combos. Black Marth's movement is clean, but not overly fast.

White Marth is a bit slower than other Marths. He is good at wavelanding and does whacky stuff like up smashes. He always auto cancels his Nairs and has more of a unique movement than Black marth.

Red Marth is really good at comboing. Fair combos and chaining hits together is his strong point. His sword hits a little harder and finishes his opponents off with ease.

Green Marth is by far the fastest. He moves so crisp and his timing between moves is superb. He's kind of a noob tho, and gets hit too much and can't always finish his opponents off.

Blue Marth spaces the best. He is efficient and really good at Dtilting and shutting his opponent down near the ledge. He isn't too fast, but he works on covering multiple options at once.

Discuss?
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
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Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
will definitely adjust my game now around the color i choose now that i know...always wondered why white marth seemed bad..it's that lack of speed and those random upsmashes
 
Joined
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Well, apparently color does change somethings on certain characters. Take regular color falcon on peach's castle on those little slopes next to the walls on the center tower. If you keep using Dsmash, Falcon will push himself off the slope because of the wall. However, any other color falcon will not push himself off if you keep using dsmash. He keeps getting his dsmash canceled and will stand in place.

I have no idea if marth actually has anything similar to that.
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
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Messages
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posted this on another board, but does anyone know whether DIing in when you hit shield makes the shield come up angled forward?
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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Jarrettsville, MD
I'm pretty sure it doesn't come up tilted. Easy way to test it:
1. Training Mode (1/4th speed)
2. Jump with up on the control stick, then hold it
3. Press shield
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
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Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
k i'll test it sometime today. I was looking the other day and it looked like my shield came up that way, but it's too hard to tell in normal time
 
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Not sure I understand what you mean. If you hold the control stick in some direction and hold, then shield, the shield tilts in the direction your holding. Dash forward, hold, and shield. You tilt forward.
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
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Messages
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the question is whether it comes up tilted or it comes up neutral and then shifts after a frame..this is pretty crucial to powershielding i would think
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
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Spiral Mountain
PP I want to play against your Marth for a while to relearn the MU. Haven't fought a Marth with Sheik in a long session in... a very long time...
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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What a coincidence. I wanted to play your Sheik for a long time to learn all of the vs Sheik things in the matchup.

I see mutual backscratching in my future. =)
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Critique me! :D

Some are labeled wrong on Twitch, and I'm currently unable to edit them for w/e reason. If you don't plan on watching all of them, my later matches are much better because I was fully warmed up. I had a bad Marth day. :/ Any criticism at all is welcome, but you can leave out the scolding of my Fox's multishining. I was just doing it for teh lulz. :awesome:

[collapse= Bones (Falco) vs.]1. Btree (Peach)
2. GimR (Marth)
3. King of Cereal (DK)
4. DJ (Marth)
5. DJ (Marth)
6. King of Cereal (DK)
7. DJ (Marth)
8. King of Cereal (DK)
9. Paul (Sheik)
10. DJ (Marth)
11. Paul (Sheik)
12. DJ (Marth)
13. Paul (Sheik)
14. Paul (Sheik)
15. Paul (Sheik)
16. King of Cereal (DK)
17. Paul (Sheik)[/collapse]
[collapse=Bones (Fox) vs.]1. Btree (Samus)
2. DJ (Marth)
3. DJ (Marth)
4. King of Cereal (DK)
5. DJ (Marth)
6. King of Cereal (DK)
7. DJ (Marth)
8. DJ (Marth)
9. King of Cereal (DK)
10. DJ (Marth)[/collapse]
[collapse=Bones (Marth) vs.]1. Paul (Sheik)
2. King of Cereal (DK)[/collapse]
[collapse=Bones (Ness) vs.]1. DJ (Marth)
2. DJ (Marth)
3. King of Cereal (DK)
4. King of Cereal (DK)[/collapse]
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
19,345
I have never seen asking for donations ever work on this site. I have no idea what ever became of that documentary on the history of smash.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
I have never seen asking for donations ever work on this site. I have no idea what ever became of that documentary on the history of smash.
I got to see Captain Jack beat Hax, call out Isai, and get destroyed by PP because of donations.

That documentary has a thread in Melee Discussion and the creator still updates it frequently.

Dag.
 
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