ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
I'm online a lot Tai, I'll hit you up to talk about smash!
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy
- Thread starter Cactuar
- Start date
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
I added you this morning as well.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
yup, i got those messages
Orion*
Smash Researcher
AZ is -7 right? Id add you but idk if Id ever actually get to talk to you.
W/e ill add you anyway.
Pointless post.
.Chipmunk.
Smash Ace
Hey, I don't wanna be left out! Add me too! sithlordv8r
Beat!
Smash Master
You're going out way too far in the wrong situations if you're getting killed a lot. It's quite possible to go offstage for edgeguards without putting yourself at much of a risk.
Some rules of thumb:
-Don't necessarily look at it the same way as edgeguarding, say, spacies (where the main objective is to kill them as soon as possible). Instead, look at it as a way of racking up damage (unless they're already at high %), and view the occasional early kills as bonuses.
-Learn when it's safe to jump out and hit them. For example, if Samus bombs too close to the stage ("too close" being pretty far away actually), you can just jump out and hit her.
-Don't fsmash unless it's gonna kill them. Giving them height to work with is no good. Dtilt is much better.
-As long as you make sure you can make it back before your opponent you can be pretty aggressive. Particularly relevant vs Samus.
Just some general stuff. If you have some vids it'd be easier to go into specifics.
Some rules of thumb:
-Don't necessarily look at it the same way as edgeguarding, say, spacies (where the main objective is to kill them as soon as possible). Instead, look at it as a way of racking up damage (unless they're already at high %), and view the occasional early kills as bonuses.
-Learn when it's safe to jump out and hit them. For example, if Samus bombs too close to the stage ("too close" being pretty far away actually), you can just jump out and hit her.
-Don't fsmash unless it's gonna kill them. Giving them height to work with is no good. Dtilt is much better.
-As long as you make sure you can make it back before your opponent you can be pretty aggressive. Particularly relevant vs Samus.
Just some general stuff. If you have some vids it'd be easier to go into specifics.
Against peach you can basically just fair her all day long as she tries to recover. Take care you don't tip it and send her up and over you, but also stay out of her nair's range. I don't really have any experience against samus :/
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
new tier list
1. luigi
2. samus
3. ice climbers
4. jigglypuff
5. pikachu
6. doc
7. sheik
8-23. almost everyone else
24. falco
25. fox
26. marth
1. luigi
2. samus
3. ice climbers
4. jigglypuff
5. pikachu
6. doc
7. sheik
8-23. almost everyone else
24. falco
25. fox
26. marth
MasterShake
Smash Lord
Tai can you like respond to my message on fb.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
....you sent me a message on fb? o_o
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
nvm i found it
holy **** mooninite looks like niko
holy **** mooninite looks like niko
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
I may post chatlogs here to see if anyone has input or wants to read or talk about them. Feel free to challenge, add to, or disagree with what I said. I'm not close to being the best player in the world, so I can be wrong.
I'll leave the asker's identity anonymous so people won't be self-conscious for any reason about asking me questions because they might seem too simple, even though most questions aren't. Italicized text means it wasn't originally included, but I wanted to include it after the fact.
This one starts with a discussion about going into the air against Falcon, very slight mention of baiting, some talk about defending against Falcon's approach, and some talk about the push-and-pull behind defending against approaches in general
[collapse="Chatlog #1"]
Anonymous: When you are Marth vs either a Fox or Falco, when do you consider it safe to LEAVE the ground? Sometimes it seems like a total gamble because they may or may not shield my incoming (or not? **** yeah mindgames...) attack. Of course that's just when I'm near them. I've been caught in all sorts of stupid stuff because I assume I gave up valuable space by leaving the ground. I guess this is really a more "How do you control your space better?" kind of question.
Me: ummmmmmmmmmmmm
probably when you're moving backwards
or not awfully close to them
so i'd say like
you can go in the air at the very tip of their viable approach range
to bait them into doing something
Anonymous: What would that be for Falcon?
Me: man
i hate falcon so much
lol
i think falcon is slightly different
but my thoughts on falcon aren't exactly set in stone
Anonymous: Haha basically using your advice just for him...
Me: I think going in the air is a lot riskier against Falcon just because he's able to overshoot approaches really easily so he always has the capacity to punish you for going airborne regardless of distance, but because of this, he's a lot more likely than Fox to run into defensive moves like u-tilt, forward B, rare f-smashes, and jab. He's also a lot more vulnerable to CCs than Fox is because his safe aerials are just not very powerful, so there's another reason to not go in the air too often against him. I think that the only times you should really be going aerial against Falcon is if you're doing a rising aerial to stuff his approach or if you think he's not going to punish you for it, so pretty much if he's not going to challenge it or is in no position to challenge it (e.g. in shield, stuck in the corner, etc.) So I guess that the ground is just a generally safer place to be vs Falcon. Rising/retreating aerials should be used sparingly (but still used imo) when you think they're going to approach or if you think it'll condition them to expect it. Rising aerials can get you pushed back or even hit if they expect it, but they're soo good when your opponent actually does run into it because it's borderline impenetrable. If they expect it, they may be more vulnerable to approaches from your end since they're more focused on menacing you with scary movement and getting close to you and whatnot. Umm, try mixing in bait aerials and empty hops to make them want to attack you if they're insistent on not approaching you TOO readily, abusing his dashdance and whatnot. If you think he's not gonna take the bait, that means you can start working on trying to go in. You can try approaching on the ground, with aerials, with empty hops, scary movement, etc. It's really complex, since it's a whole other system of guessing games once you decide to leave the neutral position and try to go in.
Anonymous: Ok so say I know falcon is going to do a running sh nair can I wavedash in and jab?
Me: hmmmmmmm
i might be more partial to utilt and forward B, and hell, maybe the occasional f-smash if you're feeling ballsy enough
because i feel that jab hits kinda low, doesn't really lead to anything, is laggy (compared to the first hit of forward B, which usually leads to non-guaranteed grabs or other such things), is easy to just tank and keep pushing into, and just isn't that well-suited for stopping Falcon because of his high SH height (compared to Fox and Falco, anyway).
i think jab is only really good if you hit with the tip or near the tip, and i don't think it's that reliable against falcon. S2J was the one who gave me this advice against jab on falcon, BTW
Anonymous: Is there a situation where you can wavedash back and fsmash?
Or multiple situations?
Me: probably any time that he approaches, it'll work
but
its just risky
if you miss
i'd say that WD back f-smash is like a super high-risk, high-reward version of the other "retreating attacks," referring to things like WD back jab/u-tilt/f-tilt and rising/retreating f-air because it's pretty much impossible to beat head-on, but is punishable because they can push you back if you miss, or even worse, if they're more ballsy about it, they can straight up punish you in the lag time
here's the way i look at beating falcon's approach. let's just ASSUME he's approaching so we can get straight to the next point. after you determine he's approaching, you have to guess whether hes going to space it normally or if he's going to overshoot it. if he spaces it normally, you can simply avoid it and try to punish the landing, although throwing out a preemptive attack to beat it might still work, but that's a whole other complicated issue. if he is going to overshoot the approach, then you can beat him by throwing something out.
i'm going to add a note here that doesn't directly address any of your questions, but i think is relevant. i've been experimenting more with what i'll call "retreating attacks." i began thinking about this more because i found myself getting really frustrated against falcoty's marth because if you don't know, i have a set of really aggressive, really technical space animals. i got mad because i kept trying to chase him as he ran away, and i'd find myself just getting hit. i told myself he was stupid and just swung his sword too much, and i wondered why i hardly did the same thing.
before, i sorta divided my defensive options into two categories. i could either move out of the way to avoid the attack or i could throw out an attack to stuff my opponent's approach, but i then realized that you can do both at once, and it's not that hard. you throw out an attack as you're retreating. it's something i did for a long time, but i never THOUGHT ABOUT very much until recently. first of all, it allows you to reap the benefits of avoiding and defending. by moving backwards, you mess up their spacing (and you get to take advantage of interpolated hitboxes, but let's not get into that mess), and you get to throw out an attack to hit them. the more important thing (IMO), though, is that it's just another tricky mixup to put into your game.
i tested these ideas and applied them to fighting axe in some friendlies, with surprising success, and they make sense if you think about it.... falcoty retreated from me. i chased him. i got hit. if he threw out the moves straight up (without retreating), there's no way in hell i would've gotten hit by them. i was watching out for those.... and there's no way i'd get caught by his DD grabs either. i was watching out for those, too. the thing is, i wasn't watching out for retreating attacks. as he retreated, i chased after him because i was watching for him to run away so i could rush him down and try to not let him breathe. i approached him BECAUSE he retreated... and then i got hit. so the thing about me and axe (at least, in the games i tested this against him in) is that by default, we don't run into attacks, and we look for the opponent's retreat as a signal to let us know that we can go all in, so retreating attacks are the missing answer in this scenario
the downside to retreating attacks is that you can get pushed back or otherwise punished if you miss. in recent times, i've sorta been whooping falcoty's marth with my fox and falco because i make it look like i'm going to approach him by mixing in empty shorthops and wavelands with my dashdance to make him throw out his sword, and once that happens, i get a free dash attack on him.
so like everything in this game, you can't rely on it exclusively. however, something you SHOULD keep in mind is that once your opponent adapts to your defense, that opens up other options for you because by adapting to one thing, he opens himself up to another thing, so for example.... if your opponent adapts to your retreating attacks and starts getting too brave with his movement, you might be able to catch him off guard by just running at him and grabbing. there's tons of things that can be done in this situation, and it'd be absurd for me to list all of them since the game is so complex, so use your creativity for this part
[/collapse]
I'll leave the asker's identity anonymous so people won't be self-conscious for any reason about asking me questions because they might seem too simple, even though most questions aren't. Italicized text means it wasn't originally included, but I wanted to include it after the fact.
This one starts with a discussion about going into the air against Falcon, very slight mention of baiting, some talk about defending against Falcon's approach, and some talk about the push-and-pull behind defending against approaches in general
[collapse="Chatlog #1"]
Anonymous: When you are Marth vs either a Fox or Falco, when do you consider it safe to LEAVE the ground? Sometimes it seems like a total gamble because they may or may not shield my incoming (or not? **** yeah mindgames...) attack. Of course that's just when I'm near them. I've been caught in all sorts of stupid stuff because I assume I gave up valuable space by leaving the ground. I guess this is really a more "How do you control your space better?" kind of question.
Me: ummmmmmmmmmmmm
probably when you're moving backwards
or not awfully close to them
so i'd say like
you can go in the air at the very tip of their viable approach range
to bait them into doing something
Anonymous: What would that be for Falcon?
Me: man
i hate falcon so much
lol
i think falcon is slightly different
but my thoughts on falcon aren't exactly set in stone
Anonymous: Haha basically using your advice just for him...
Me: I think going in the air is a lot riskier against Falcon just because he's able to overshoot approaches really easily so he always has the capacity to punish you for going airborne regardless of distance, but because of this, he's a lot more likely than Fox to run into defensive moves like u-tilt, forward B, rare f-smashes, and jab. He's also a lot more vulnerable to CCs than Fox is because his safe aerials are just not very powerful, so there's another reason to not go in the air too often against him. I think that the only times you should really be going aerial against Falcon is if you're doing a rising aerial to stuff his approach or if you think he's not going to punish you for it, so pretty much if he's not going to challenge it or is in no position to challenge it (e.g. in shield, stuck in the corner, etc.) So I guess that the ground is just a generally safer place to be vs Falcon. Rising/retreating aerials should be used sparingly (but still used imo) when you think they're going to approach or if you think it'll condition them to expect it. Rising aerials can get you pushed back or even hit if they expect it, but they're soo good when your opponent actually does run into it because it's borderline impenetrable. If they expect it, they may be more vulnerable to approaches from your end since they're more focused on menacing you with scary movement and getting close to you and whatnot. Umm, try mixing in bait aerials and empty hops to make them want to attack you if they're insistent on not approaching you TOO readily, abusing his dashdance and whatnot. If you think he's not gonna take the bait, that means you can start working on trying to go in. You can try approaching on the ground, with aerials, with empty hops, scary movement, etc. It's really complex, since it's a whole other system of guessing games once you decide to leave the neutral position and try to go in.
Anonymous: Ok so say I know falcon is going to do a running sh nair can I wavedash in and jab?
Me: hmmmmmmm
i might be more partial to utilt and forward B, and hell, maybe the occasional f-smash if you're feeling ballsy enough
because i feel that jab hits kinda low, doesn't really lead to anything, is laggy (compared to the first hit of forward B, which usually leads to non-guaranteed grabs or other such things), is easy to just tank and keep pushing into, and just isn't that well-suited for stopping Falcon because of his high SH height (compared to Fox and Falco, anyway).
i think jab is only really good if you hit with the tip or near the tip, and i don't think it's that reliable against falcon. S2J was the one who gave me this advice against jab on falcon, BTW
Anonymous: Is there a situation where you can wavedash back and fsmash?
Or multiple situations?
Me: probably any time that he approaches, it'll work
but
its just risky
if you miss
i'd say that WD back f-smash is like a super high-risk, high-reward version of the other "retreating attacks," referring to things like WD back jab/u-tilt/f-tilt and rising/retreating f-air because it's pretty much impossible to beat head-on, but is punishable because they can push you back if you miss, or even worse, if they're more ballsy about it, they can straight up punish you in the lag time
here's the way i look at beating falcon's approach. let's just ASSUME he's approaching so we can get straight to the next point. after you determine he's approaching, you have to guess whether hes going to space it normally or if he's going to overshoot it. if he spaces it normally, you can simply avoid it and try to punish the landing, although throwing out a preemptive attack to beat it might still work, but that's a whole other complicated issue. if he is going to overshoot the approach, then you can beat him by throwing something out.
i'm going to add a note here that doesn't directly address any of your questions, but i think is relevant. i've been experimenting more with what i'll call "retreating attacks." i began thinking about this more because i found myself getting really frustrated against falcoty's marth because if you don't know, i have a set of really aggressive, really technical space animals. i got mad because i kept trying to chase him as he ran away, and i'd find myself just getting hit. i told myself he was stupid and just swung his sword too much, and i wondered why i hardly did the same thing.
before, i sorta divided my defensive options into two categories. i could either move out of the way to avoid the attack or i could throw out an attack to stuff my opponent's approach, but i then realized that you can do both at once, and it's not that hard. you throw out an attack as you're retreating. it's something i did for a long time, but i never THOUGHT ABOUT very much until recently. first of all, it allows you to reap the benefits of avoiding and defending. by moving backwards, you mess up their spacing (and you get to take advantage of interpolated hitboxes, but let's not get into that mess), and you get to throw out an attack to hit them. the more important thing (IMO), though, is that it's just another tricky mixup to put into your game.
i tested these ideas and applied them to fighting axe in some friendlies, with surprising success, and they make sense if you think about it.... falcoty retreated from me. i chased him. i got hit. if he threw out the moves straight up (without retreating), there's no way in hell i would've gotten hit by them. i was watching out for those.... and there's no way i'd get caught by his DD grabs either. i was watching out for those, too. the thing is, i wasn't watching out for retreating attacks. as he retreated, i chased after him because i was watching for him to run away so i could rush him down and try to not let him breathe. i approached him BECAUSE he retreated... and then i got hit. so the thing about me and axe (at least, in the games i tested this against him in) is that by default, we don't run into attacks, and we look for the opponent's retreat as a signal to let us know that we can go all in, so retreating attacks are the missing answer in this scenario
the downside to retreating attacks is that you can get pushed back or otherwise punished if you miss. in recent times, i've sorta been whooping falcoty's marth with my fox and falco because i make it look like i'm going to approach him by mixing in empty shorthops and wavelands with my dashdance to make him throw out his sword, and once that happens, i get a free dash attack on him.
so like everything in this game, you can't rely on it exclusively. however, something you SHOULD keep in mind is that once your opponent adapts to your defense, that opens up other options for you because by adapting to one thing, he opens himself up to another thing, so for example.... if your opponent adapts to your retreating attacks and starts getting too brave with his movement, you might be able to catch him off guard by just running at him and grabbing. there's tons of things that can be done in this situation, and it'd be absurd for me to list all of them since the game is so complex, so use your creativity for this part
[/collapse]
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Wow, that's pretty interesting. I kind of started working on retreating aerials against the local Fox in my area and it's started to pay off.
Anyone is good for this next question... but dash dancing. I know what it's used for when I see it and is frustrating to deal with when I see it, but I find myself struggling to implement it correctly when I find myself playing better players. Can any of you guys who are more experienced players break down your usage of the DD game and I guess some opinions of what you think other characters (Fox, Falco, Falcon... opposing Marths) are thinking as they try to force your hand with their own DD.
I feel like I understand the surface of it and when I subconsciously get it, I get it (well, compared to the locals) but there are times where I'm completely stumped when I actively try to think and deal with it.
Anyone is good for this next question... but dash dancing. I know what it's used for when I see it and is frustrating to deal with when I see it, but I find myself struggling to implement it correctly when I find myself playing better players. Can any of you guys who are more experienced players break down your usage of the DD game and I guess some opinions of what you think other characters (Fox, Falco, Falcon... opposing Marths) are thinking as they try to force your hand with their own DD.
I feel like I understand the surface of it and when I subconsciously get it, I get it (well, compared to the locals) but there are times where I'm completely stumped when I actively try to think and deal with it.
Niko45
Smash Master
Yea I agree with Tai my favorite ways to deal with overshot approaches would be retreat fair, early/approach grab, or even just standing up tilt. Edit: I forgot to mention dashing towards the opponent, crossing underneath them and coming back to punish also is great against overshot approaches.
From neutral against Fox or Falcon its extremely important to focus on whether they are overshooting against you or not and adjust accordingly. If you get running shine approached trying to dash away pivot grab you have to start doing one of the above options to stop it.
One thing I would note is that if you're chasing Marth and find yourself getting hit a lot approaching with shield can dismantle Marths who like to passively swing too much (goes for playing any char vs marth).
---
Also I sorta have picked up a tendency in better players to try to overshoot you if you are DDing, but will often "regular" approach if you are just standing. So turning around and grabbing early from your DD is way more effective than just standing there and grabbing, where as if you just stand still and then dash away pivot grab on reaction to their approach it will work better than it would if you were previously DDing.
From neutral against Fox or Falcon its extremely important to focus on whether they are overshooting against you or not and adjust accordingly. If you get running shine approached trying to dash away pivot grab you have to start doing one of the above options to stop it.
One thing I would note is that if you're chasing Marth and find yourself getting hit a lot approaching with shield can dismantle Marths who like to passively swing too much (goes for playing any char vs marth).
---
Also I sorta have picked up a tendency in better players to try to overshoot you if you are DDing, but will often "regular" approach if you are just standing. So turning around and grabbing early from your DD is way more effective than just standing there and grabbing, where as if you just stand still and then dash away pivot grab on reaction to their approach it will work better than it would if you were previously DDing.
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
Tai didn't post our discussion,
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
lol i didn't decide to start posting them until yesterday
anyway, arcnatural and i discussed pivots... pivot grabs mostly.
he said he had something of an option select for dealing with fox's approach.
essentially, what he does is pivot grab and then hold down to ASDI down grab the fox's weak overshot approach. this covers a handful of options:
1. standard nair approach gets pivot grabbed
2. pivot grab will catch fox out of mid-air if he overshoots an approach, doing the aerial late
3. ASDI down grab will get fox is he does the aerial early because it stays out and gets weaker by the time it touches you
i was inclined to disagree with him at first because of how it was presented, but it's essentially just another (very specific) example of a retreating.... tactic (since no attacks are thrown out). you move backwards while putting out a hitbox. it has pretty much the same weaknesses as the others (you're pushed back if you miss, you're stuck in lag), but it just comes with different risks and rewards. for example, an additional risk is that you're more vulnerable to dash attack and fullhop approaches. other benefits are the pay-off (getting a grab vs getting a sword swipe) and it's not awfully slow.
pivots are just another way of doing retreating defense. WD back and dash back into dash cancel are simply much easier... so if you CAN do it, instead of doing WD back jab, WD back dtilt, etc, you could replace those with pivot jab, pivot dtilt, etc etc.
anyway, arcnatural and i discussed pivots... pivot grabs mostly.
he said he had something of an option select for dealing with fox's approach.
essentially, what he does is pivot grab and then hold down to ASDI down grab the fox's weak overshot approach. this covers a handful of options:
1. standard nair approach gets pivot grabbed
2. pivot grab will catch fox out of mid-air if he overshoots an approach, doing the aerial late
3. ASDI down grab will get fox is he does the aerial early because it stays out and gets weaker by the time it touches you
i was inclined to disagree with him at first because of how it was presented, but it's essentially just another (very specific) example of a retreating.... tactic (since no attacks are thrown out). you move backwards while putting out a hitbox. it has pretty much the same weaknesses as the others (you're pushed back if you miss, you're stuck in lag), but it just comes with different risks and rewards. for example, an additional risk is that you're more vulnerable to dash attack and fullhop approaches. other benefits are the pay-off (getting a grab vs getting a sword swipe) and it's not awfully slow.
pivots are just another way of doing retreating defense. WD back and dash back into dash cancel are simply much easier... so if you CAN do it, instead of doing WD back jab, WD back dtilt, etc, you could replace those with pivot jab, pivot dtilt, etc etc.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
yeah, arc always discussed this...and I did it for a few weeks and then forgot about it though..
however, it's not as hard as it sounds, instead of doing instant pivot grabs I would d oinstant pivot stand and just react..if the pivot didn't get off, well i dashed a little farther and gave up more space, but it's not that big of a deal, if hte pivot occurred, the fox is probably right in your face and you can react and grab
however, it's not as hard as it sounds, instead of doing instant pivot grabs I would d oinstant pivot stand and just react..if the pivot didn't get off, well i dashed a little farther and gave up more space, but it's not that big of a deal, if hte pivot occurred, the fox is probably right in your face and you can react and grab
_eternal
Smash Apprentice
How do I know when (non-tippered) jab reset will give my opponent the option to roll vs being forced to stand in place? Particularly against spacies I guess. Dunno if it's character-dependent.
MasterShake
Smash Lord
It depends on if they hold a direction I think.
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
It depends if they were holding an input before you jab them. Since Marth's jab is relatively strong they can usually do something relatively quickly.
Jab resets are dependent on strength of jab, weight(andor)ff speed. Someone made a very good list of all or most characters jab resets on most other characters. I'm too lazy to find it but it's a very good tool.
Jiggly's jab reset on Fox is absolutely bonkers and works up to like 80+% where even holding a direction they have to stand up. So they can only get out via smash di.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
fox gets jab reset way harder than any other char because of his falling speed acceleration.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I just stopped assuming jab resets made them get up in place and combined that with the ability to react to techs. Just look at jab resets as a way of forcing them to decide a tech option instantly and remember to anticipate all of the options.
Niko45
Smash Master
I got getup attacked out of a jab reset yesterday that was so annoying.
I like that we are talking about jab resets cause I think it's one area I could really improve in. The way you see the top sheik players reacting instantly with jab resets off of random knockdowns, Marth needs to be just as sharp.
I like that we are talking about jab resets cause I think it's one area I could really improve in. The way you see the top sheik players reacting instantly with jab resets off of random knockdowns, Marth needs to be just as sharp.
Marth has to be more sharp than Sheik to achieve that same output. Sheik's jab is crazy awesome. Marth's is :/
Bones0
Smash Legend
It's an overrated concept in general imo. All it does is tack on 2-3% and make it slightly easier to tech chase, but it gives them a completely legitimate way of getting out of the combo by (S)DI'ing up.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Yeah. The real answer to missed tech (with Sheik) is down smash.
edit: Which Marth also cannot do.
edit: Which Marth also cannot do.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
Doesn't double-jab eliminate the chance of them punishing you for trying to jab reset?
Bones0
Smash Legend
If you think jabbing a Fox that missed a tech at 10% is equivalent to grabbing their tech option, then go for it.
Niko45
Smash Master
Covering every stand up option requires that beast spacing where you're just outside of getup attack range and even then I'm not totally sure that on the more ranged getup attacks (another Marth, maybe Falcon?) you can true punish rolling away.
Getting that exact spacing is also something that takes a bit of setup unless you luckily end up in it naturally so its not really a universal way to punish stand up options. You can also CC getup attacks at very low % and cover everything but obviously that is situational. Jab resetting off random hits like, best example being an ASDI'd Marth nair which is very common are less likely to have the opponent exercise tricky options out of jab reset compared to sheik dthrow missed tech which they have lots of time to prepare for (and are of course, intentionally missing the tech for). We don't have sheik's dsmash but I still think jab resetting is better than not in a lot of situations.
Getting that exact spacing is also something that takes a bit of setup unless you luckily end up in it naturally so its not really a universal way to punish stand up options. You can also CC getup attacks at very low % and cover everything but obviously that is situational. Jab resetting off random hits like, best example being an ASDI'd Marth nair which is very common are less likely to have the opponent exercise tricky options out of jab reset compared to sheik dthrow missed tech which they have lots of time to prepare for (and are of course, intentionally missing the tech for). We don't have sheik's dsmash but I still think jab resetting is better than not in a lot of situations.
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
Or you can be like Zoso, react to everything power shield get up attacks
Niko45
Smash Master
He's probably guessing when you're going to do it but idk maybe that's possible
Bones0
Smash Legend
No, my Marth training partner frequently goes entire games without missing tech chase grab options. I also sort have thought he was just guessing a lot until I learned to do it myself. It just takes MAD discipline so that you DON'T guess. It's really easy to get an itchy trigger finger and shield for get-up-attacks, but once you practice it enough you just know to react to missed techs automatically. Marth is a bit of an enabling character when it comes to this because you can usually get punishes by DDing around get-up-attacks, but it can limit you from a lot of great options like dtilting people on reaction when they get up in place at the ledge.
Just prioritize their options in your head any time they land:
0. Wiggle out (no one does this, but aerialing out is pretty common; most experienced players already know with pretty good certainty if the stun is finished or not though, so I only watch for this when it's close)
1. Tech (assume they will tech everything; confirming they missed a tech is pretty easy because it takes so long for them to do the bounce animation, and this is required even if you want to jab reset)
2. Get-up in place (I like to shield on reaction for this because some of the animations look really simliar to the get-up-attack, and obviously I just grab a split second later when I'm sure it's not an attack)
3. Get-up-attack (do be conscientious of shield pokes, but they're rare, even as Marth)
4. Roll away
5. Roll towards
When you practice vs. someone, if they stall on the ground, DON'T shield. It's sooooo easy to fall into that trap. You may want to prioritize everything over get-up-attack until you learn to never shield except when they attack. You can practice this vs. level 4 spacies on FD whenever you drop regular chain grabs. They aren't the best at mixing up their options, but it's good enough to keep you honest on reacting instead of reading.
Just prioritize their options in your head any time they land:
0. Wiggle out (no one does this, but aerialing out is pretty common; most experienced players already know with pretty good certainty if the stun is finished or not though, so I only watch for this when it's close)
1. Tech (assume they will tech everything; confirming they missed a tech is pretty easy because it takes so long for them to do the bounce animation, and this is required even if you want to jab reset)
2. Get-up in place (I like to shield on reaction for this because some of the animations look really simliar to the get-up-attack, and obviously I just grab a split second later when I'm sure it's not an attack)
3. Get-up-attack (do be conscientious of shield pokes, but they're rare, even as Marth)
4. Roll away
5. Roll towards
When you practice vs. someone, if they stall on the ground, DON'T shield. It's sooooo easy to fall into that trap. You may want to prioritize everything over get-up-attack until you learn to never shield except when they attack. You can practice this vs. level 4 spacies on FD whenever you drop regular chain grabs. They aren't the best at mixing up their options, but it's good enough to keep you honest on reacting instead of reading.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
what about not jabbing and just waiting for them to do something?
also, the real answer to missed-tech with marth is reverse dolphin slash.
also, the real answer to missed-tech with marth is reverse dolphin slash.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I can get behind reverse dolphin slash punish. lol Though if you wait 'til they roll away you can hit them even further off stage.
Niko45
Smash Master
Hmm I have a horrible habit of running up and shielding on grounded opponents. Gotta be more patient for sure. My highest priority in that situation is to NOT get hit by a getup attack even if I don't manage to get anything out of it because then I'm at least in neutral. Getting hit by getup attack puts marth out of position floating around somewhere on a platform or something and you then have to get yourself back into position.
Beat!
Smash Master
Dsmash can be fun/good for tech chasing sometimes.