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[mexicanmax227]

Nice marth last night niko. i almost didint make it to class today lol. you seemed like you had a good understanding of the match up. Any advice or does pc just have a predictable fox. Ill be reviewing yall footage tonight.

 

[_eternal]

How does the Ganon MU work? There's no writeup in our sticky so I read the one on the Ganon boards. I know this is supposed to be in Marth's favour but I'm scared of bair. Can't really juggle or ken combo if he ties/slightly beats you in range. Trading is bad because everything sends you offstage but I don't know what to do other than techchase grab to build damage. Also, do you guys recommend smaller stages like FoD or will that just result in me getting punched in the face and dying early?

Oh, and any tourney vids to study would be appreciated. All of the ones I've seen involve the very problems I'm having: Ganon lives to ~150, Marth gets pressured and eventually edgeguarded once he's not in the center of the stage. Maybe Kage is just good at the matchup lol.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

How does the Ganon MU work? There's no writeup in our sticky so I read the one on the Ganon boards. I know this is supposed to be in Marth's favour but I'm scared of bair. Can't really juggle or ken combo if he ties/slightly beats you in range. Trading is bad because everything sends you offstage but I don't know what to do other than techchase grab to build damage. Also, do you guys recommend smaller stages like FoD or will that just result in me getting punched in the face and dying early?

Oh, and any tourney vids to study would be appreciated. All of the ones I've seen involve the very problems I'm having: Ganon lives to ~150, Marth gets pressured and eventually edgeguarded once he's not in the center of the stage. Maybe Kage is just good at the matchup lol.

Retreating fair should beat out bair or fair and leads into follow ups nicely, which, with Ganon, should end up with him offstage. He's actually no that difficult to juggle. When I say juggle, most people think vertically, which is tough to do on Ganon because of his dair. Juggle him with nairs and fairs, and he gets too close to the ground you can fsmash to send him offstage or uair to send him high again. Once he's off stage, he's fairly easy to edgeguard with fsmash or neutral b. I've been playing around with reverse dolphin as an edgeguard as well and its been pretty successful for me. So you can play around with that and see how it words for you.

Recovery is tricky because ganon can cover several options with just a reverse sh uair off the edge. You gotta be smart with it and know when to recover high or drop down a bit lower to miss that huge uair hitbox. Watch ganon for clues when you are returning to the stage and he'll let you know. Ganon is slow, and slow means doing things early which gives a player with a good reaction time all day to do stuff.

My combo of choice against ganon is to retreat with fair, jump in with nair, sh fair, falling uair, utilt, nair/fair depending on the DI, fair some more till I can fsmash or spike.

 

[knightpraetor]

"Retreating fair should beat out bair or fair"

this would be true, but ganons don't approach..it's just a lie they want you to believe...i've changed my mind a lot about this in the last week or so but basically fear will get you killed...

i would dash dance around and get a few grabs so that they start playing for space and trying to use jabs some...jab is good because if they are jabbing you can..

sh approach...i would do the aerial on the way down...

now you're asking..what happens if they are in the air already and going to trade with you...the answer is you just don't care...eat a fair or bair...learn to DI....try to land spaced fairs into shield pressure on them or nonspaced late fairs into dash through or nair into uptilt...the reality is that ganon crumbles ten times worse than marth when marth gets inside his max distance range because marth can spam uptilt after moves...dashdance circles around him, etc etc.

so the worst possible thing you can do is try to only camp him...dash dance camping is good..but if you are only camping the whole time
you will keep losing space if you never commit and then get boxed out at the ledge.

however, if you approach instead of being a coward..when you eat a fair/bair you won't be at the edge of the stage, and you can DI and still recover....

as an added benefit, if you actually tip a fair or hit a nair you don't have to combo him all the way across the stage but can just hit one or two aerials and then get him offstage with ease.

unless you have practice using reverse up b to guard his down b recovery, then i don't recommend small stages.

big stages are also good for learning not to fear him and working on DI because when you're wrong you don't just instantly die...gives you more chances to learn when to approach

on recovery, high up B's into fall to the ledge aren't as risky in this matchup because the only thing he has that he can use quickly from a grounded position that covers horizontally is his ftilt..

so you need to risk doing this occasionally since he can waveland off into reverse upairs.

what chip said in the last line basically translates to "everything you do will combo ganon except for noncommittal nairs"

i only mention the noncommittal nairs because back when i was trying to outcamp the ganon like everyone said I kept trying to hit nair but it never seemed to combo very well...the whole spacing them out and DIing out tends to make them not combo that well

also, don't keep trying to force grabs after they start jabbing it's better just to start approaching in that situation..though obviously you could grab them after the jab it's easier to just jump in there and get things going.

oh and if you're playing kage you are just going to die probably...good luck...when you get super good at the matchup post on here and enlighten us...normally i don't write so much, it's funny..there are matchups i know really well, but i post on the one that i know the least...i guess it's cause i was having a lot of problems with it and was doing it all wrong so i want you to at least have the balls to commit instead of playing scared and trying to outcamp the ganon (don't get me wrong, i wholly approve of dashdancing and making sure the ganon stays honest..just don't try to play a spacing war against him as if he were jiggs [except at low percent for those grabs])

 

[.Chipmunk.]

You can approach with a retreating fair....

 

[Bones0]

Play exactly like Mango vs. Kage at RoM. lol

 

[_eternal]

Play exactly like Mango vs. Kage at RoM. lol

Wow. Uh... wow. Thanks for pointing me to that one. Didn't know Marth could be so aggro.

But yeah, thanks for the advice, guys. I think I get the idea. Ganon is slow and you don't want to give him room to breathe. I'm guessing the flow looks something like: space fair/nair/dtilt to keep him in shield, get in with grabs (and crossup nairs?), keep hitting till he dies. Seems like it's harder to get in than to combo him once you're there.

 

[Bones0]

Grabs? Mango didn't use a single grab that game. It's obviously really bad vs. Ganon.

 

[Niko45]

Nice marth last night niko. i almost didint make it to class today lol. you seemed like you had a good understanding of the match up. Any advice or does pc just have a predictable fox. Ill be reviewing yall footage tonight.

glad you find it useful. I don't really know about PC I've just been playing well recently dunno why.

 

[Divinokage]

Play exactly like Mango vs. Kage at RoM. lol

That's nuts, no one else would be able to do that.

 

[Bones0]

That's nuts, no one else would be able to do that.

The disbelief of others only serves to fuel a warrior's hunger for success. Every "can't," "won't," and doubt represents a mere bead of sweat that will be expelled along a warrior's journey.

 

[~Twitch~]

The disbelief of others only serves to fuel a warrior's hunger for success. Every "can't," "won't," and doubt represents a mere bead of sweat that will be expelled along a warrior's journey.

ah yes but what is hunger without the food of victory to expel the doubt that resides within other people's hearts?

 

[Bones0]

ah yes but what is hunger without the food of victory to expel the doubt that resides within other people's hearts?

That hunger is pain. But a true warrior uses that pain to motivate himself so that one day he may sit at the head of the table to feast on the food of victory.

 

[~Twitch~]

That hunger is pain. But a true warrior uses that pain to motivate himself so that one day he may sit at the head of the table to feast on the food of victory.

and while a foolish warrior eats the food of victory by himself, a true warrior knows how to share his food of victory among his loyal followers for without followers, he is the head of nothing.

 

[Divinokage]

Well... I'm waiting.. Who will be that 2nd foolish warrior (Marth) that would be able to beat me. lol.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Mango:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb5ZE-HxVBE#t=3m22s

Mew2king:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7Pjpjd47LU

 

[Divinokage]

They both got lucky and FD...

 

[Tee ay eye]

Your original post said nothing about not getting lucky or playing on FD

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Well... I'm waiting.. Who will be that 2nd foolish warrior (Marth) that would be able to beat me. lol.

I wanna fight you, ganon is one of my fav MU's. I'd play it all day.

 

[Strong Badam]

dart just won smym13 beating kels and darkrain

 

[Bones0]

Midwest? Not impressed.

 

[Construct]

Kels and DARKRAIN
He was lookin' prey good

 

[MT_]

Lately I've been incredibly unsatisfied with my tech skill. I always used to think that my tech skill was sufficient because of the stigma that Marth isn't a very technical character, but I've realized that there is a huge discrepancy between the tech skill of the Marths that I look up to and my own Marth.

Which brings me to just generally ask you guys about tech skill with Marth. What do you guys do to improve/maintain tech skill consistency? What kind of "routines" do you do when practicing tech skill? Things you keep in mind? Advice? Any thoughts at all?

 

[Construct]

Practice 0-deathing bots (levels 4 and 7 are what I typically do, best DI mixups without the inhuman powershielding reflexes) in the most obscenely technical way you can. Wavedashing and shdf/shffling everything, doing silly pivot stuffs, weird ledge droppy things etc.

If there's something in particular you've noticed that's lacking in your game, just grind it out for half an hour until you've got it down solid

 

[Niko45]

dart just won smym13 beating kels and darkrain

raaaaaaaaaaaaaaape

 

[ShroudedOne]

It's nice to see low-tier mains winning tournaments.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Lately I've been incredibly unsatisfied with my tech skill. I always used to think that my tech skill was sufficient because of the stigma that Marth isn't a very technical character, but I've realized that there is a huge discrepancy between the tech skill of the Marths that I look up to and my own Marth.

Which brings me to just generally ask you guys about tech skill with Marth. What do you guys do to improve/maintain tech skill consistency? What kind of "routines" do you do when practicing tech skill? Things you keep in mind? Advice? Any thoughts at all?

I'm not sure how much this helps, but my favorite thing to do in-between stocks is shield drop -> DJ -> edgecancel dair on the platform -> edgecancel dair on the edge of the stage

I honestly think a large reason for my tech skill is that I play Fox, Falco, and Falcon pretty much exclusively against CPUs and I just try to be as absurdly technical as I can when I play them alone.... and that sorta carries over if you've ever seen my Fox.

 

[Divinokage]

Your original post said nothing about not getting lucky or playing on FD

I always ban FD vs Marth (Vs everyone too) which means he got lucky by playing me on here. As for Mango, he's just better than me so it's not enough proof for match-up knowledge.

 

[Niko45]

Yea I think playing spacies on the side is the best way to up general tech skill cause no characters really compare as far as inputs and it just gets your fingers "in shape" to do whatever you want to do.

Other than that practicing specific things with Marth like late fair dash away or pivot utilting out of things, retreat double fair into utilt/dtilt and of course pivoting.

 

[Beat!]

Good **** Dart!

 

[Tee ay eye]

I always ban FD vs Marth (Vs everyone too) which means he got lucky by playing me on here. As for Mango, he's just better than me so it's not enough proof for match-up knowledge.

I'm not saying that isn't true.

You were just asking for two Marths to beat you (without any set conditions)

And I linked to two Marths beating you.

 

[Divinokage]

I'm not saying that isn't true.

You were just asking for two Marths to beat you (without any set conditions)

And I linked to two Marths beating you.

Ya but they aren't warriors. So there! I implied OTHER Marth mains.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Oh, I thought you were referring to Marth as a warrior. Because Marth is a warrior in Fire Emblem.

 

[MT_]

Yeah, whenever I start practicing tech skill with Marth with CPUs or w/e I always end up switching to a spacey lol. Marth is just... not very fun against CPU. But yeah. @Construct I pretty much do that too LOL I guess I just need more practice in general.

HMM

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah, sorry chip, obviously misunderstood you there..

i'm kinda surprised that bones acted like grab is bad against ganon..this statement just doesn't make sense...how can it be difficult to get a grab against a character that has massive lag after every aerial and low dash speed. of course you don't grab if they're jabbing after every aerial, but you don't even have to be close enough in your dashdance to get grabbed...

the matchup seems a lot easier once they start jabbing from fear of grabs and then you can get inside their spacing even easier.

 

[Construct]

I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic there KP. Although after watching Mango vs Australia, I noticed his Marth does use very few grabs. Wonder why.

 

[Tee ay eye]

I remember reading a post on Facebook from Mango a long time ago that said something along the lines of...

"Yeah, someone asked me why Norwalk never grabs. Truth is, we found out about grabbing a long time ago but stopped doing it because it was gay."

 

[JPOBS]

The true savior of marth has finally revealed himself to be of midwest blood. All hail Dart!
The dragon is reborn!

 

[Construct]

I remember reading a post on Facebook from Mango a long time ago that said something along the lines of...

"Yeah, someone asked me why Norwalk never grabs. Truth is, we found out about grabbing a long time ago but stopped doing it because it was gay."

Hahahahaha that's perfect

 

[Dart!]

Oh, I thought you were referring to Marth as a warrior. Because Marth is a warrior in Fire Emblem.

To be fair, marth is a LORD not a WARRIOR in fire emblem...