Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Niko45]

empty hop dtilt/utilt is like my entire game

 

[Jun.]

I'm always surprised at how easily empty hops bait shield grabs too lol.

 

[Rappster]

Hi y'all.
I just lost to a samus who just spammed missles & charge shot when I was away, and dash attack/dsmash when i was close.
If i approached on platforms, he'd rising fair me.
what should i have done?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Shield camp? Space better? Idk that stuff is kinda vague but really you just have to move between the projectiles and space so that you dont get hit by the random attacks.

 

[Jun.]

Keep Samus above you preferably in the air. Samus has basically no downward priority in the air while Marth has one of the best upward priority. The opposite is also bad since Samus can freely attack from below using her fair or even nair quite safely.

About projectiles, if you're getting spammed then you're placing yourself too far away. If you even stay within a two sword range of Samus, she shouldn't be shooting anything since Marth can close that gap very quickly and start the offense from either a grab or just a fair.

Count how many times they blindly approach using dash attacks, maybe even purposely get hit. If they do it 3 times or more its probably a habit and counter it by dashing into a shield. Chances are they'll dash attack and you'll be able to get an easy shield grab to start your offense.

Remember Samus doesn't have a clear-cut method of approaching with her normals and that her game is revolved around zoning and spacing the few viable moves she has. Luckily Marth is (should) be even better at spacing so just don't get zoned by projectiles and you should be fine.

example video: M2K vs Hugs @ TP5 (ignore his speed/tech skill and instead see his spacing/zoning. At least that's what I do since I don't get anything out of m2k videos if i get distracted by his speed lol)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iMmEbSElwg

 

[Rappster]

thanks guys.
in the linked match http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iMmEbSElwg
why did m2k throw forwards?
if you want samus above you, don't you wanna throw up?
also, if samus missles right in my face, should i just thow out a dash attack or ftilt to cancel it out?

 

[Jun.]

thanks guys.
in the linked match http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iMmEbSElwg
why did m2k throw forwards?
if you want samus above you, don't you wanna throw up?
also, if samus missles right in my face, should i just thow out a dash attack or ftilt to cancel it out?

If you uthrow samus, she just goes WAY too high to follow up. A fthrow sets up for a fair, dash attack, maybe a fsmash if DI'ed in etc. To be more specific its probably best to have Samus (or any floaties) above and in front of you.

a close missile (assuming that you don't wanna shield cause of its lag pre/post lag) can just simply be jabbed. It'll cancel the missile and your jab animation I believe so that you can close the gap quicker.

 

[Sage Osaka]

for all you d00dskiez talking about the marth ic matchup, heres a decent vid that was just uploaded. this is the same ic's that beat m2ks marth :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVFar7tdoJk&feature=feedu

 

[MasterShake]

this is the same ic's that beat m2ks marth :D

and the same ic's who lost to that scrub mooninite

 

[Sage Osaka]

and the same ic's who lost to that scrub mooninite

haha this is true. master mooninite must have been bagging sand every day except that day though. xD

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

lol chok is a lot better than portrayed in those videos. that set is the result of us playing all day so i had a while to figure him out. he was ****** me at first.

 

[OverLord]

Veeeeery nice KFC.

 

[Strong Badam]

You can uthrow Samus and then just wait for her to come down. She has very few options to come down with and she falls slowly.
But fthrow is good.

 

[Niko45]

Samus actually has decent options coming down with bombs and what not.

I prefer to fthrow Samus straight into fair strings it seems to work on just about every Samus I've ever played and sometimes they even try to jump out and lose their jump in the process which is like a free 0-80.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

lol chok is a lot better than portrayed in those videos. that set is the result of us playing all day so i had a while to figure him out. he was ****** me at first.

lol it doesn't matter what you say, that set was incredible.

I really, really like your Marth.

 

[Jun.]

dude

KFC is solid vs Sheik...

teach us

 

[Kehvlar]

How do i deal with an aggressive doc that loves to dash attack and spam pills?

I can manage on big stages like fd and battlefield but on smaller stages like yoshi's story and fod, his dash attack and pills are harder to deal with since his dash attack range is soo big and i find it hard to deal with his pills especially when he platform camps and spams them, whenever i try to approach him, he nairs me or something and just combos me to death.

 

[ArcNatural]

How do i deal with an aggressive doc that loves to dash attack and spam pills?

I can manage on big stages like fd and battlefield but on smaller stages like yoshi's story and fod, his dash attack and pills are harder to deal with since his dash attack range is soo big and i find it hard to deal with his pills especially when he platform camps and spams them, whenever i try to approach him, he nairs me or something and just combos me to death.

From Niko who plays OTG who is a beast Doc main.

I don't know how many times I will say this on smashboards but UP THROW DOC. Up throw him and position yourself to up tilt/uair/fair him as he tries to get back down.

Way too much excessive movement in game 1. You're DDing from a distance like this is vs Falcon and he's pill approach ****** you for it. Face Doc, jab/fair his pills and try to space fairs on him. Not just late fair. SHDFair is huge, early retreat fair into waveland is also good. Mixing up your fair game will create openings. Basically, your first stock on Yoshis is much more what you want to be doing all the time in this matchup, although your spacing was a little too close there too. If the doc likes to full hop pill you need to be calling him out for that and full hop fairing both his pill and him upon the start up. Then just string tons of fairs together, push him off stage and hopefully edgeguard.

Fair dtilt on shield is really "meh" as far as I'm concerned. It's pretty crappy pressure and if they just roll behind (like Boss does on you all the time) you are auto *****. I'm always much more conscious of getting rolled behind, so I'll fair shield and just wait to see what they do at that point, which is still a ton of pressure with less commitment. Fair dtilt imo is better against CCing, for say, a sheik or samus who is blatantly looking to trade a hit for a CC **** combo, that's when I feel spacing fair dtilt comes in really handy.

Ok, even tho I said up throw doc, fthrow is still **** if you actually take advantage of it, which you're not. Just eyeballing his DI in the video I can tell you you could have fthrow dash attacked him for big combos off of most/all your fthrows.

You are double jumping immediately out of things like back throw off stage or any type of hit that puts you out hovering near the ledge. Both the Doc and Fox blatantly committed to calling you out on it. Keep that jump. Use fair on reaction to protect yourself if you have to. Marth is so free if he jumps out like this a lot.

You're misspacing as Doc wavelands up from the edge. Wavedash back down tilt is your friend here. You can anticipate dtilting his shield and react to what he does after. You might get a quick DD grab. Maybe you SHDFair quickly and catch him coming out. After you've conditioned him to waveland up with his shield, you can just start grabbing him. :D

 

[Winston]

I'm not sure those issues warrant that in-depth advice...

Have you tried:

-shielding the dash attack?
-crouch cancelling the dash attack?
-dash dancing around the dash attack?
-delaying and spacing your fairs so that you beat the dash attack?
-how is he platform camping you on tiny stages like Yoshi's and FoD? Have you tried hitting him when he's on platforms with your sword?
-how is nair beating your approach consistently? How are you attempting to approach him anyway?
-DIing down and away to get out of combos? Nair shouldn't lead to combos unless you are DIing in, usually.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

If you shield Doc's dash attack, make sure you angle your shield down. It will shieldstab a lot; if your shield is low, you are much better off doing other options (dashdance, CC, etc).

 

[Max?]

From Niko who plays OTG who is a beast Doc main.

Arc with the respect.

<33333333

Come to NY.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Shield with an option select for CC and grab?

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Shield with an option select for CC and grab?

Yeah, thats the great thing about trying to angle it down. Even if you **** up and angle too late or your shield is too small and you get hit anyways, you are holding down so you will CC grab him.

Pretty much makes the dash attack irrelevant

 

[Max?]

You guys are still talking about Doc? He should almost never dash attack from a neutral position unless he's going for jank and feels like taking a MONSTROUS risk, or he made a technical error and meant to Ftilt.

my .02

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

You guys are still talking about Doc? He should almost never dash attack from a neutral position unless he's going for jank and feels like taking a MONSTROUS risk, or he made a technical error and meant to Ftilt.

my .02

I was mostly talking about what to do if they dash attack, not if they should dash attack in the first place lol.

But yeah, I agree. Some Docs seem to think its good against Marth because of shieldstab opportunities but I think its too risky.

 

[MARaTHonman]

Im somewhat new to playing melee seriously, so bear with me if this should have an obvious answer. I have trouble playing against my friend as falco. From what I can tell, he doesn't play him like most people. He just spams his f.smash and dair, so what should I do against that? Also, does Marth's sword have priority against Falco's dair if you tipper it? thanks

 

[MasterShake]

Im somewhat new to playing melee seriously, so bear with me if this should have an obvious answer. I have trouble playing against my friend as falco. From what I can tell, he doesn't play him like most people. He just spams his f.smash and dair, so what should I do against that? Also, does Marth's sword have priority against Falco's dair if you tipper it? thanks

When does he do it? Are you running or jumping into him? If that's the case, just wait. Or run up wavedash back. Try to bait him into doing it so you can punish with whatever you think is appropriate (usually a grab). Marth's sword does not have priority per say but he can outrange Falco's dair with moves such as ftilt, fair, uair (which you can use if he's double jumping to dair). If he's double jumping it's actually safer to dashdance and grab since Falco's horizontal air movement is poopoo. I wouldn't punish dair with fsmash because Marth moves his hurtbox forward and then it hits you anyways.

 

[mers]

Yeah, just run around a lot and grab him when he lands/does things. Then throw him up and keep hitting him.

 

[MARaTHonman]

Im usually either running into the f.smash or standing after a missed grab or something like that. I'll try to shield grab sometimes but often he'll keep smashing back and forth. When he uses the dair its mostly just off the ledge.

Thanks for your input guys.

 

[Winston]

So, is it possible to tipper a sh dair against someone who's directly below you and follow up with grab before they get out of stun? I mean at the percents where they don't fall over.

I ask because I always try to bait rolls towards me and sh dair them but if they end up under me I either get the tipper but they get out of stun before they land, or it doesn't tip dair if I try to fastfall it and they get to CC it and hit me.

I mean I know I can like fair -> and just wait or DD to grab instead but I want to know if it's at least a valid option.

 

[Wenbobular]

@MARaTHonman: Learn how to wavedash out of shield bruh
Or like shield then do an attack out if it

*Edit*
O wait vs Falco?
<_<
How are you having problems shieldgrabbing Fsmash
As Marth

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

@winston i believe you have frame advantage so yeah you can grab them after the dair. If not you can just play the gay-grab-game where you grab in their direction and if they roll you run after them and grab again and you keep doing this until either you grab them or they manage to get away cause if they try to do anything else they will get grabbed.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Winston, in my experience, it has to do with when you hit with the dair. If you do it as early as possible as you rise, you will never get the grab if they react on time. If it is a falling dair, grab seems to always combo. I am not sure at which point in the rise dair combos to grab but it feels like its near the apex of the jump. If you are dropping from a platform on top of them with dair, you will almost always be able to grab (not true on Dreamland).

I could be wrong though, and I am just going off personal experience, not frame data, so I'd like to know the answer to that question too.

 

[Niko45]

I've never had a problem comboing late dair into grab. Rising dair will never combo into grab tho. Or are you saying the spacing is the issue because they are "inside" your grab range?

 

[Strong Badam]

So, is it possible to tipper a sh dair against someone who's directly below you and follow up with grab before they get out of stun? I mean at the percents where they don't fall over.

Generally speaking at these percents average hitstun on dair is between 23 and 30 frames of hitstun. I'll assume about 3 frames before you land.
+23-30
-3 frames
-16 frames landing
-7 frames grab

so you can be anywhere from -3 to +4 depending on victim & percent. for reference, Captain Falcon gets enough hitstun for this to work when his percent after the tipper Dair is 25%.


EDIT: lol I didn't even check before I made this but Bowser gets 23 frames of hitstun on fresh dair at 0%. LOLLL I ****

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Generally speaking at these percents average hitstun on dair is between 23 and 30 frames of hitstun. I'll assume about 3 frames before you land.
+23-30
-3 frames
-16 frames landing
-7 frames grab

so you can be anywhere from -3 to +4 depending on victim & percent. for reference, Captain Falcon gets enough hitstun for this to work when his percent after the tipper Dair is 25%.


EDIT: lol I didn't even check before I made this but Bowser gets 23 frames of hitstun on fresh dair at 0%. LOLLL I ****

Good **** dude.

And considering how long it takes for them to start up their defensive options (spotdodge, roll, etc), this should pretty much always work right? As long as you hit with your dair 3 frames or less before landing? Shine should be too far away if you hit with a tipper dair so thats not an issue..

In order to do a sh ff dair as specified above, you'd have to start your dair as early as frame 14 (2/3rds to the apex of the sh) of your shorthop and FF perfectly. Seems like a good distance to remember when practicing on-stage dairs.

 

[Strong Badam]

buffering a spotdodge (sans Bowser.... poor Bowser) would escape if you were -3, and Jigglypuff/Yoshi can buffer a roll. otherwise yes.
additionally, while it is 2/3rds the time in frames to the apex of your jump, it is not 2/3rds of the height, as upwards acceleration decreases as gravity stacks on you each frame and thus those 7 frames go about 1/5th or less of the total height of the shorthop.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

buffering a spotdodge (sans Bowser.... poor Bowser) would escape if you were -3, and Jigglypuff/Yoshi can buffer a roll. otherwise yes.
additionally, while it is 2/3rds the time in frames to the apex of your jump, it is not 2/3rds of the height, as upwards acceleration decreases as gravity stacks on you each frame and thus those 7 frames go about 1/5th or less of the total height of the shorthop.

Ah, I forgot about the deceleration factor. So 4/5ths to the apex. My personal experience post was hella on point. Get at the kid.

About the buffered spotdodge: aren't you still at a frame disadvantage against a lot of characters? You miss your grab, sure, but since they spotdodged in the middle of your grab animation, you will finish your grab animation while they are spotdodging. For all but the 22 frame spotdodge chars, your grab animation will end before their spotdodge even with a -3. You only get a +1 against the 27 frame spotdodge characters, but against Falcon and Ganon you get a massive +6. Just enough to do another grab (yay!). ****.

So summary:
1) To combo dair->grab do it either when dropping on your opponent (whether from a platform or otherwise) or at 4/5ths the apex of your short hop
2) It usually combos straight up but at low %s they may have a small window to buffer a spotdodge.
3) Dair -> grab is guaranteed on Falcon and Ganon, as long as they remain standing. If they spotdodge, you can grab again.
4) Against the 27 frame spotdodge characters (Puff, Marth, ICs, Peach) you have a +1 frame advantage after your missed grab. You can't do much with that, but you can at least try to keep your tempo with a mindgame, pivot grab, or whatever. Don't try to grab again or you'll get *****.
5) Against the 22 frame spotdodge characters (Falco, Fox, the Marios, Samus, Sheik, Pika) you are at a frame disadvantage if you miss your grab after the dair. Only a -4 though, so they have to be quick with whatever they do. If a Fox takes the dair, recognizes he has a 3 frame advantage, remembers to buffer a spotdodge, recognizes that he has a 4 frame advantage after your missed grab, and then runs up and shines you during your lag, well then they deserve the shine. Promptly pause the game, shake his hand, and congratulate him on advancing the metagame.

Who says you don't learn anything from the character specific boards? Winston's question just got obliterated.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

So the only person in my immediate area that played Melee is on hiatus from said game. How am I supposed to get better now? I continue to practice tech skill and stuff against computers but...I feel like I can only go so far with that...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I would suggest practicing ur tech skill sparingly but traveling to nearby tournaments and smashfests (or even running them yourself so the people come to you). Take all the experience you can get, good or bad. I know there are active players in the state and if MW can travel 2 hours for smashfests, i don't see why GA couldn't make something work.