Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Cactuar]

Dash dance.

I like to throw out fsmash at a distance just to see if they will try to run in and punish out of muscle memory, even if they can't actually reach me in time.

 

[iamthemicrowave]

Dash dance.

I like to throw out fsmash at a distance just to see if they will try to run in and punish out of muscle memory, even if they can't actually reach me in time.

cactuar your avatar is amazing. i <3 r/treecomics

 

[Cactuar]

Tomorrow I'll probably change my status to [10].

 

[iamthemicrowave]

winnnnnnnnnnnnn, go ents

 

[.Chipmunk.]

So today I was playing some melee, as I usually do. Now, I know I've been getting better steadily because I've been recording myself so that I can go back and learn from mistakes/track my progress, but something unusual happened today. I got noticeably better in the middle of a match. Or at least, I think I did. Is that possible? I mean...I was suddenly faster and reading better and making better decisions. I thought it was a fluke so I kept playing and it remained. I quite playing for a while and then went back. Same thing. WTF?!?

 

[Strong Badam]

calculate frame advantage on shield with
shieldstun = floor{(4.45+damage)/2.235}

additionally bait with dash dance and dtilt. really lol

 

[Dart!]

you know so much about frame data...you should be the best player in the world right now.

 

[Strong Badam]

lol if only it worked that way

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

the only thing i know is that shine comes out in one frame, and everything else in the game i kind of just intuitively understand.

Frame data isn't at all essential imo, time spent learning frame data can be time spent furthering your tech skill/ practicing.

(but i guess it doesn't hurt to know it?)

 

[Strong Badam]

what tech skill does DK have?

 

[MasterShake]

Giant punch to edge cancel.

 

[Sage Osaka]

Lol spacing too if there is no tech skill to be learned. It's crazy to see how well two top level players playing each others spacing is, its so imperative but not easily noticed

 

[Strong Badam]

i have really good spacing I never even noticed until I saw recent vids :/

 

[earla]

whats best marth options to beat people crouch canceling

 

[OverLord]

Good spacing beats CCing.

Also CCing back beats CCing pretty hard.

 

[MasterShake]

Grabbing definitely beats CCing.

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah I was about to say grabbing

 

[Tee ay eye]

dair works too

 

[mers]

dair works too

You would say that.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I played Hbox's Puff some with Marth yesterday and won more than I lost I believe(it was friendlies though so take it for what you will...we weren't goofing off though lol).

I dunno if anyone has any questions about the matchup but juggling Puff is amazing and as long as you're patient it's super ****. Also stage control is the entire matchup it feels like.

I always JC my grabs and didn't get punished for it too hard(never rested). It's definitely more of a when Puff is shielding type deal instead of when Puff's in lag because she can somehow crouch out of lag. <.<

Ftilt and Fsmash are amazing. The old school dash away then WD in Fsmash works well I've found and coming in harder with Ftilt is cool due to its range(especially while egdeguarding).

Dtilt is cool for catching Puff out of landing lag and conditioning her to shield. Dtilt also leads to grabs or popping Puff up for juggling(they have to jump away to avoid getting hit more).


Not sure if this is all common knowledge but Hbox asked me why my Marth was better than M2K's lol so I figure I'd share here if it can help Marth **** more. =)

 

[Niko45]

Yea I don't mind fighting puff at all anymore.

Just curious, how do you find you open her up to begin with mostly? That seems to be the hardest part.

I find a lot of puffs get baited by shielding on a plat, taking an aerial and then quickly WD oos FFing underneath puff with an uair or fair. Did that work at all?

Sometimes I find timing overshot nairs between her bairs works but I'm not confident that that would work on a great puff. It's sorta my BnB for fighting Ganon, tho, which I find kinda similar in his wall of pain-like aerial baits. If not overshot nairs maybe overshooting with fairs would be better cause it's quicker and might have a better hit box for the situation?

Also do you find dash attack useful? I find if you land a dtilt on puff you can dash attack immediately and catch her as she tries to jump away in reaction to being dtilted. Dash attack is obviously pretty situational and risky but it can open her up big time. Your thoughts are appreciated.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yea I don't mind fighting puff at all anymore.

Just curious, how do you find you open her up to begin with mostly? That seems to be the hardest part.

I find a lot of puffs get baited by shielding on a plat, taking an aerial and then quickly WD oos FFing underneath puff with an uair or fair. Did that work at all?

Sometimes I find timing overshot nairs between her bairs works but I'm not confident that that would work on a great puff. It's sorta my BnB for fighting Ganon, tho, which I find kinda similar in his wall of pain-like aerial baits. If not overshot nairs maybe overshooting with fairs would be better cause it's quicker and might have a better hit box for the situation?

Also do you find dash attack useful? I find if you land a dtilt on puff you can dash attack immediately and catch her as she tries to jump away in reaction to being dtilted. Dash attack is obviously pretty situational and risky but it can open her up big time. Your thoughts are appreciated.

Opening Puff up would be Dtilt once in a while if I wanted to catch her falling, but mostly I worked Fairs(did some empty hops and WDs to position myself.....I mean you have time to do it because Puff's just gonna float around and do moves so you can react and then chase and hit her if she runs or retreating aerial if she comes in lol).

Oh man I'd never get above Puff on purpose. Too much potential for being shield stabbed and she could control how you fell too well imo. Now maybe I got away with it if I ever shielded on a platform but aside from edgeguarding or juggling I never jumped on a platform on purpose. That may be a style thing though.

I like Nairs on Puffs that approach LMAO. Hbox doesn't approach much so Nair sucked vs him(worked fine vs Mahone who approached more though and I got more off of it). Like I said I Fair'd a TON vs him and tippered and got so many combos off of it. Like FF Fair to rising Fair to another Fair or Uair is some sick damage if it's all tippered and then you get juggles too.

Umm I very rarely dash attacked unless I knew he was gonna try to WD OOS or retreat right after landing with an aerial, and then it's great. That was incredibly sparing for me though.

I really just played the matchup by following Puff's movements around and Fair'ing her and then empty hopping to kill jumps and Uair'ing or Bair'ing to keep the juggle/edgeguard going. Grab heavy game sucks vs her for sure.

 

[Beat!]

Falco is now officially my secondary.
Marth is now my main.








I just wanted to say that.

 

[Niko45]

I mean, she kinda sucks at controlling people above her. So slow and crappy range. Even if not taking the aerial on purpose sometimes I just feel like fighting her on an uneven plane is better even if it is from above. Maybe it doesn't work on good puffs. I haven't played hbox in a while.

But like especially if you got a lead you could camp top plat on like battlefield or DL for free basically. Is she really coming up there? And if she does, it doesn't seem that hard to get around her and then underneath her and then be in serious business.

I probably just have to be more confident with my fair game on the ground tho. I just...don't like challenging his bair with fair. Ehhhh. I don't think I've really tried empty hopping a lot vs her tho so that's interesting at least.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I mean, she kinda sucks at controlling people above her. So slow and crappy range. Even if not taking the aerial on purpose sometimes I just feel like fighting her on an uneven plane is better even if it is from above. Maybe it doesn't work on good puffs. I haven't played hbox in a while.

But like especially if you got a lead you could camp top plat on like battlefield or DL for free basically. Is she really coming up there? And if she does, it doesn't seem that hard to get around her and then underneath her and then be in serious business.

I probably just have to be more confident with my fair game on the ground tho. I just...don't like challenging his bair with fair. Ehhhh.

Hmmm I just don't like how she can weave and attack at a bunch of weird times or switch where she's hitting your shield(side or underside). If you like it then go for it haha.

I don't really challenge it per se. I wait for the move to come out then hit her leg or wait for her to start moving away and then swing. It's a really weird timing that I don't think most people are used to but it's worth playing around with. Same timing for the Fsmash and Ftilt too but you'd be moving differently for those obviously.

 

[Niko45]

I see.

Oh, I forgot to ask if you tried running up really quickly with shield and maybe forcing a misspaced bair that you could then immediately fair oos punish with.

But if you don't like letting her hit your shield then you probably aren't into that. Idk I just have a bunch of ideas stored up for that matchup that I have no idea how effective they'd be cause I don't have a good puff to play ever.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I see.

Oh, I forgot to ask if you tried running up really quickly with shield and maybe forcing a misspaced bair that you could then immediately fair oos punish with.

But if you don't like letting her hit your shield then you probably aren't into that. Idk I just have a bunch of ideas stored up for that matchup that I have no idea how effective they'd be cause I don't have a good puff to play ever.

Umm that's actually not too bad. I think I got away with that some. WD OOS towards Puff with Marth *****. Ftilt, Uair, Fair are all things I did with WD OOS. But yeah just jumping straight out with Fair can work sometimes but you have to be TIGHT on the execution because Puff doesn't let you get away with that kind of counter stuff easily.

 

[Niko45]

I'm actually curious on the frame window between 2 puff bairs, does anyone know that?

I was always kinda of the impression that if she rising bair'd your shield into a retreating bair you'd still be lagging from a wavedash oos by the time her 2nd bair comes out, or at least that you wouldn't have time to get a move out beforehand even if you were technically out of WD lag. I guess my timing was just bad.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can definitely get a Fair out in between puff Bairs. I'm not sure if it's good to try OOS often(don't remember) but it's what I do when I'm actively avoiding and punishing them.

 

[strawhats]

I played Hbox's Puff some with Marth yesterday and won more than I lost I believe(it was friendlies though so take it for what you will...we weren't goofing off though lol).

I dunno if anyone has any questions about the matchup but juggling Puff is amazing and as long as you're patient it's super ****. Also stage control is the entire matchup it feels like.

I always JC my grabs and didn't get punished for it too hard(never rested). It's definitely more of a when Puff is shielding type deal instead of when Puff's in lag because she can somehow crouch out of lag. <.<

Ftilt and Fsmash are amazing. The old school dash away then WD in Fsmash works well I've found and coming in harder with Ftilt is cool due to its range(especially while egdeguarding).

Dtilt is cool for catching Puff out of landing lag and conditioning her to shield. Dtilt also leads to grabs or popping Puff up for juggling(they have to jump away to avoid getting hit more).


Not sure if this is all common knowledge but Hbox asked me why my Marth was better than M2K's lol so I figure I'd share here if it can help Marth **** more. =)

See now I wish u recorded some of these. Maybe you could play this mu more against hbox/mango at Genesis in friendlies(hope it gets recorded along with that puff v falco mm u have wit mango). Marth needs a new hero damn it. As to why you probably have a better marth than m2k (true or otherwise) you're more of an experimental type. Also m2k has very little faith in marth these days.

 

[Sage Osaka]

playing against a puff that really knows the marth matchup is really annoying. i feel as if i ALWAYS have to be on the ground, i don't feel safe on platforms at all just because jiggs has to commit less and can kinda just poke at you from under and you cant really cover your tracks from a platform.

 

[Mahone]

THE SECRET TO THE PUFF MATCHUP:

Spoiler

pivots

Seriously though, pp is giving REALLY good advice, the key to the matchup is using empty hops to take jumps and then pressuring at the right times. Also, like he said it's all about stage control... the marth i play is really good at the matchup and he tells me that he thinks about stage control alot, sometimes taking a hit on purpose and using other tricks to gain stage... i think that's something that a lot of marths don't think about. That's why you guys always find yourself getting comboed and edgeguarded... it's because you are close to the ledge so you have to di in and you get comboed and/or *****.

I could say more but the matchup is already gay enough for puff as it is lol

Also i was joking about pivots, but if you do get consistent at them you can throw -> tipper up til like 100 so that could be cool

 

[Niko45]

Something else Marths need to be aware of against Jiggs is that UP AIR WILL KILL HER. You can up air kill Jiggs on smaller/medium sized stages at reasonable percents, anywhere from 100-130. You can look for these while "edgeguarding" puff, as the threat of you fsmashing/dtilting/dairing her makes her afraid to come in low and she often opts to try to float over your head, at which point that up air is free.

 

[Mahone]

also, often times if you fsmash her shield when you are close, the shieldstun allows you to retreat safely.

You should also grab a lot because she can't duck the standing grab....

and dsmash when close to them is secretly godlike, it punishes rolls hard and kills early

 

[Niko45]

also, often times if you fsmash her shield when you are close, the shieldstun allows you to retreat safely.

You should also grab a lot because she can't duck the standing grab....

and dsmash when close to them is secretly godlike, it punishes rolls hard and kills early

ok you lost me

 

[Tee ay eye]

ok you lost me

check the icon by his name, bro

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I have run into this situation so many times during dittos where one Marth grabs and another Dtilts. Yet neither hits the other nor grabs the other while right on top of each other. Why does this keep happening?

 

[Strong Badam]

animations change hurtbox placement, surprise

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

animations change hurtbox placement, surprise

And after looking at those hitbox/hurtbox animations, it seems like either marth should be grabbed or hit. And that's what I'm not getting. Marth's grab will hit towards the center of his body along with his dtilt. Height might be an issue for the grab, but I cannot see why Dtilt is not making contact.

 

[Mahone]

ok you lost me

or have you finally been found

check the icon by his name, bro