Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Niko45]

what do you guys think about stages against spacies?

More and more I'm disliking YS and liking battlefield.

 

[Teczer0]

I like YS vs Falco a little.

The fact that the top platform can be reached by a SH upair is a nice bonus. And shy guys can protect you occasionally.

But, I like fighting falco with less space as a general thing.

Vs Fox, I just dislike DL64 and PS.

Oh, I guess I should say, I prefer BF and FD vs Fox simply because I feel like I have enough space to do everything. FoD is a nice alternative too, marth has some really funny stuff on that stage.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Down smash is okay to KO (esp. on floaties) if you combo into it / edgeguard them with it. And covering multiple tech options is sometimes a cute trick. I think it may have some application edgeguarding some other characters, but that also might just be gimmicky nonsense.

But yeah beyond specific stuff like that, it's not a good move. It's pretty bad otherwise.

 

[Niko45]

The only two spots I see down smash being good is on a resting jiggs when you don't have time to charge B and on a sheik that happened to up B way into the stage and you can KO with down smash. If I can't KO with dsmash I'd rather just grab sheik again at that point.

@Tec0 yea I don't feel like I can exploit the dash dance game against Fox on YS. He's always on top of me and I'm forced to hit him with random fair/utilt/uairs which just seems less reliable. Battlefield just feels perfect for doing everything as you said.

Same with Falco tho really. I like a *little* space against Falco because you can still exploit Marth's dash in that matchup in a less orthodox way.

 

[Dart!]

strike to BF cp FoD or YS whichever you're more comfortable....or try to get them to go bf again.

 

[Tee ay eye]

if you up+b onto the stage and sheik rolls on thinking she's edgehogging you, it can be an auto-spaced tipper d-smash

fthrow -> wd -> tipper d-smash works a lot against peach, marth, and pikachu when they are at kill percent and DI to avoid the f-smash

cc -> regular d-smash is a janky kill i like to get when my opponent is at obscene percent

f-throw -> tipper dsmash works and kills against space animals a fair amount

 

[Teczer0]

strike to BF cp FoD or YS whichever you're more comfortable....or try to get them to go bf again.

Striking as Marth vs spacies almost always ends up at BF for me. Except in MW where MW are like, this guys is totally EC he dunno **** about FoD.

Then =3

Also I guess I have the luxury of having a second character I guess lol. I usually just strike PS, have spacies CP me with DL64 then switch to sheik rofl.

 

[Dart!]

Striking as Marth vs spacies almost always ends up at BF for me. Except in MW where MW are like, this guys is totally EC he dunno **** about FoD.

Then =3

Also I guess I have the luxury of having a second character I guess lol. I usually just strike PS, have spacies CP me with DL64 then switch to sheik rofl.

what's the secret to being good with more than one character? i'm tired of sheik marth.

 

[Wenbobular]

Sigh, my poor fledgling Falco got 4 stocked on DL by the Sheik after getting Ohana-chan Tecotaco Teczero's Marth to 1 on BF

 

[makoforce]

um this may be an off topic question but has anyone ever got to a point where playing marth was boring and it was just the same old thing. I mean cause with fox you have endless technical things to do but not so much with marth.

 

[Tee ay eye]

no i haven't
maybe marth isn't the character for you
i wouldn't be playing marth if i didn't absolutely love playing him

otherwise i'd be playing falco or sheik

 

[OverLord]

what do you guys think about stages against spacies?

More and more I'm disliking YS and liking battlefield.

I counterpick BF, FoD or FD if not banned.

I like YS but usually I don't CP there 'cause sometimes they bring me there free. I found myself often striked to YS.

PS and DL aren't that good but I found myself really good in those two, so it's fine for me in general.

If I have to choose, BF or FD.

 

[OverLord]

lol double post. x(

 

[MT_]

I love BF vs. spacies. I think it helps a bunch that there is no wall to ride, so it removes some of their recovery mixups.

 

[SwiftBass]

dunno I feel like spacies are kind of screwed going that low anyways. I mean like I dun even consider going below the edge of the stage a mixup, because a good marth or shiek will react and have all the time in the world to kill you. It becomes easy to react over time. I go below the stage and do the weird angle or try to hug the edge maybe once per set if I REALLY REALLY need it. I consider it a trump card more than a mix up.

 

[Teczer0]

what's the secret to being good with more than one character? i'm tired of sheik marth.

The secret is that you have to be willing to input the time into learning a different character. Having fun with the character is a bonus since you'll be more willing to use said character.

There really though, is no 'secret' but I can help you if you'd like help picking up another one.

 

[Strong Badam]

I approach with downsmash.

 

[Winston]

dunno I feel like spacies are kind of screwed going that low anyways. I mean like I dun even consider going below the edge of the stage a mixup, because a good marth or shiek will react and have all the time in the world to kill you. It becomes easy to react over time. I go below the stage and do the weird angle or try to hug the edge maybe once per set if I REALLY REALLY need it. I consider it a trump card more than a mix up.

Yeah, spacies really should be dead no matter what in that situation, but I feel like a lot of Marths still rely on counter/fsmash in that situation (even decent ones). So for now, having that wall is still something.

 

[Niko45]

Honestly, it seems like they should be, but they are really far from dead...

No wall to ride/easily tech against is an enormous boost.

 

[Wenbobular]

Not going down there basically reduces it to a 50/50 guess on most stages haha
Only if they're good at angling though, good thing most Foxes are garbage

 

[Teczer0]

Sigh, my poor fledgling Falco got 4 stocked on DL by the Sheik after getting Ohana-chan Tecotaco Teczero's Marth to 1 on BF

LOL I just saw this =3.

No one can resist taking me to DL64 =3.

Eggm who literally knows me, my cp habits, and characters fell for this trick. Its fantastic =3

 

[Wenbobular]

Sounds pretty cheap dawg
Should've just picked back to Battlefield and gone Falcon or something haha

Stupid inability to pick a character ...

 

[Winston]

Honestly, it seems like they should be, but they are really far from dead...

No wall to ride/easily tech against is an enormous boost.

Well, I think swift was saying that you can just go down there on reaction and kill them that way, either with bair, reverse up b, neutral B, or the side B nonsense. You can grab the edge if necessary to get some invincibility if they are too close to just get them with up B directly.

I also think it should be doable the vast majority of the time. It's not nearly as easy as counter/other onstage edgeguarding though, so people still rely on those, and then they let spacies get back when there's a wall available.

 

[Niko45]

Uh maybe I'm just fake but I don't think there is the time and space to do that on reaction consistently when they can hug the wall or go super low really fast with a FF and stuff.

Pretty much if you know ahead of time that you've hit them below with no jump or they take a really easy angle to punish then yea but other than that there's just too much to worry about and there isn't enough time imo.

Counter/Fsmash is not relied on, it's superior.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Yo shoutouts to Tec0's sig.

If you haven't played 999 yet you should. Amazing game. Freaking amazing. I don't care if you don't have a DS. Buy one and get 999. So good.

 

[KirbyKaze]

There's a lot of time to react to a low space animal recovery, IMO.

 

[Teczer0]

There's a lot of time to react to a low space animal recovery, IMO.

All you really have to do with any floaty character really is simply wait till the spacie falls below the level and just not fast fall.

You can very easily react if you do it that way and its very fast.

Yo shoutouts to Tec0's sig.

If you haven't played 999 yet you should. Amazing game. Freaking amazing. I don't care if you don't have a DS. Buy one and get 999. So good.

If I can give you a get out of infraction free card. This is what I'd give it to you for =3

Absolutely fantastic game.

 

[Wenbobular]

Uh maybe I'm just fake but I don't think there is the time and space to do that on reaction consistently when they can hug the wall or go super low really fast with a FF and stuff.

Pretty much if you know ahead of time that you've hit them below with no jump or they take a really easy angle to punish then yea but other than that there's just too much to worry about and there isn't enough time imo.

Counter/Fsmash is not relied on, it's superior.

You can angle Firefox past both of them and get in something like ledgehop Uair before Marth recovers, it's not superior at all <_<

I mean, you can even trigger counter with Firefox and grab the ledge before it hits you (even though missing the counter entirely is probably better)

Most applicable on Dreamland, FD, and FoD (YS is weird and BF is BF)

 

[DuckPimp]

i'm tired of sheik marth.

i counterpick falcon versus sheik.

all other matchups are whatever character i feel like playing. versus sheik its falcon.

 

[OverLord]

i counterpick falcon versus sheik.

all other matchups are whatever character i feel like playing. versus sheik its falcon.

You're a true man.

 

[Divinokage]

Be sure to use the term COUNTER-pick correctly though lol. It's more like an anti-counter pick lol.

But!! Manly all day!! =D

 

[DuckPimp]

he's not a counterpick, but i counterpick him.

the verb, not the noun

lolgrammar

 

[SwiftBass]

Uh maybe I'm just fake but I don't think there is the time and space to do that on reaction consistently when they can hug the wall or go super low really fast with a FF and stuff.

Pretty much if you know ahead of time that you've hit them below with no jump or they take a really easy angle to punish then yea but other than that there's just too much to worry about and there isn't enough time imo.

Counter/Fsmash is not relied on, it's superior.

I disagree, you can counter on reaction and also WD back and react again in some cases. Gmoney does that well actually (I think he over uses the latter (like when a spacies isnt below the stage) but he actually edgeguards pretty well in the particular scenario, but he kind of squanders alot of the gimmes.


Think about it, there are two options and 3 outcomes. if a spacy is about average distance there are three options for him and two for you:

fox/falco:
1. hug stage and for edge
2. hug stage and go for stage
3. straight up



Marth:
1. go to ledge(if not already there) and Counter
2. react with dtilt, fsmash , fair, or whatever else you can use to hit them.(****yeah some may disagree but i go under the assumption that in MOST of these cases-fox choosing to go under the stage with spacies marth really shouldn't even contemplate about grabbing the ledge unless its a "trick in the bag". If you disagree then I guess you just do. and I'd love to hear an argument. PLUS in regard to what niko mentioned on reaction time....I am pretty sure that such an option would be VERY hard to do on reaction...ANYWAYS****** )


COUNTERING:
-The spacie can go straight up and beat counter if you counter way too late(which most ppl do).

-The spacie can run into counter and get killed and/or put into an easy edgeguard.

-the spacy can on occasion sweet spot and dodge counter or even more rare tech counter.



REACT ON STAGE/WD BACK WAIT AND REACT:
- The spacie can go straight up and give you all the time in the world to react to a "non sweetspot".(there are some trickier cases where there is little time but that at the same time lessens fox/falco's chance of a wall hug since they can only travel but so far. so it kind of balances it self out and comes down to your tuiton as a marth player.)

- The spacie can try to hug and sweetspot or go for the stage and you'll not only have some time to react , but you will have more options and leave them in a larger pickle depending on what you choose. When they come to you on the angle it saves some time and give you more time to choose a more damaging option.(ex: If I WD back and he goes straight up, depending on how low he was I only have a small amount of time to do something. I can try to run and fsmash or something big but I will be pushing it. I may want to settle for just WD forward and/or run Dtilt since it hits low and buys me a few more frames)

#####note#####
A spacie with the right distance can really make the situation almost a 50/50. or at least very hard to react to however its a give an take, for fox/falco lose options when they decide on distances. Its up to marth to react with thought.


SOLUTIONS (Well in theory at least):
---counter option loss solution-----
Marth has such simple solutions to the holes in his edgeguarding. He can counter early and if fox/falco goes straight up and counter misses he can come out of counter state and jab/hit/whatever and put fox and falco back in a similar situation which is favorable.


----WD back/react on stage loss solution----
fox especially can give you little time to do anything in this case if he goes straight up and you are not within poke/jab/something quick range. Its really all about intuition and knowing the distances. If fox goes really low to barely sweet spot, he really can't hug the edge THAT well(he can but the angle is SUPER TOUGH) so you know that counter is good because his probability of making that hug and missing counter from that low is very low. You can still in that situation react on stage, and the only risk you take if you execute is him tech a dtilt/fsmash/or whatever like fair(but i have no idea why someone would fair in that scenario) which I think every marth rather have to take in such a case.




Its not perfect but marth relies on smarts and reaction with simple key execution. I think in theory such reaction is feasible when in fox/falco discussion players can theory-craft on shine reactions, and every 5 frame window non-esense under the sun. So yeah I ask alot of Marth but I know that he has it in him and that he will be more of a force in the metagame at some point.(whether I try to assist in pioneering it or not.)


pce guys hopefully it was a good read with not too many typos

 

[Niko45]

You can angle Firefox past both of them and get in something like ledgehop Uair before Marth recovers, it's not superior at all <_<

I mean, you can even trigger counter with Firefox and grab the ledge before it hits you (even though missing the counter entirely is probably better)

Most applicable on Dreamland, FD, and FoD (YS is weird and BF is BF)

Idk man, I find it to be the best...

It works really really well but there's no guaranteed KO in the situations I'm talking about.

 

[SwiftBass]

And I do hope that someone mentions something that I may have overlooked and/or missed/

 

[KirbyKaze]

If they firefox so close you can't grab the edge because of the fire, then counter. You can also dair, fair, jab, or d-tilt. F-smash sucks. Don't do it, because it sucks. It's really easy to tech, so even if you hit it, you might not even get to kill them. It's also slow, and only hits in front for a bit, so it's also harder to time than the others. There's almost no point to doing it IMHO.

If they firefox low enough so you can grab the edge, then grab the edge and fall with fair/side-b to whatever is appropriate (you can probably do other stuff but that's the easiest). It *****, can't be teched until dumb percents, etc.

Some funny business...

Marth's counter can be sweetspotted on. It's not too uncommon for this to happen nowadays. It's also techable, but that's still a rarity. It stays out forever, so you can be liberal with your timing of it. It's probably better than jab, d-tilt, etc. for the reason that it's hard to sweetspot against, and it almost always ***** firefoxes that try to directly challenge it. For this reason, you can probably (if you're lazy) just mixup edgehogging sometimes if you notice they sweetspot on your counter every now and then; they're probably trying to do perfect squeezes, and since so much is techable, if you're lazy it's not a bad idea. It may also encourage them to be a lil' less perfect with their squeeze, which then enables counter to work again. Alternatively, if you're grabbing the edge, you could also just pretend to be M2K and go berserk with Side-B, soft Fair, weak Up+B, and similar shenanigans, because that stuff is really good and covers a lot of options.

 

[SwiftBass]

If they firefox so close you can't grab the edge because of the fire, then counter. You can also dair, fair, jab, or d-tilt. F-smash sucks. Don't do it, because it sucks. It's really easy to tech, so even if you hit it, you might not even get to kill them. It's also slow, and only hits in front for a bit, so it's also harder to time than the others. There's almost no point to doing it IMHO.

If they firefox low enough so you can grab the edge, then grab the edge and fall with fair/side-b to whatever is appropriate (you can probably do other stuff but that's the easiest). It *****, can't be teched until dumb percents, etc.

Some funny business...

Marth's counter can be sweetspotted on. It's not too uncommon for this to happen nowadays. It's also techable, but that's still a rarity. It stays out forever, so you can be liberal with your timing of it. It's probably better than jab, d-tilt, etc. for the reason that it's hard to sweetspot against, and it almost always ***** firefoxes that try to directly challenge it. For this reason, you can probably (if you're lazy) just mixup edgehogging sometimes if you notice they sweetspot on your counter every now and then; they're probably trying to do perfect squeezes, and since so much is techable, if you're lazy it's not a bad idea. It may also encourage them to be a lil' less perfect with their squeeze, which then enables counter to work again. Alternatively, if you're grabbing the edge, you could also just pretend to be M2K and go berserk with Side-B, soft Fair, weak Up+B, and similar shenanigans, because that stuff is really good and covers a lot of options.

readers digest.......lol

 

[crush]

not sure if anyone said this yet but im pretty sure marths counter has a better chance of hitting spacies up-b's when used facing away from the edge

 

[Niko45]

Fsmash is really good in some spots. Counter is generally the best when they have a lot of up B angle options but if you understand Fox's options well like Swift is saying there are times when Fsmash engulfs all options and it is good to know.

Fairing someone into the stage? At what percent is that techable? Not very high I don't think.

Whenever you counter with Marth, yes you want to counter early so that if they do sweetspot or avoid the counter you aren't vulnerable to be punished as counter will be ending. You also want to have Marth tip toe out as far over the edge as you possibly can so that you can take away a vertical up B angle.

I'm not sure what you disagreed with Swift, I basically agree with everything you're talking about.

---

Basically I think it's dangerous to start trying to punish low up B's with offstage edgeguarding on reaction. Side B needs a ton of attention, especially with people being amazing at shortening them these days, and the fact is if you get hit by a side B, you are getting *****. I really doubt people's ability to punish sudden low up B's where fox had all his options with offstage edgeguarding. You had to at least been leaning towards thinking he was going to do that. That's dangerous to do, because if you **** up and get hit by side B you are now getting *****. Prioritize side B, punish up B on reaction, and in low up B's case, the reaction tends to be punish with counter or fsmash if the angle suits it.

 

[Teczer0]

I wish I had the patience to write as much as swift does.

I might respond to that later Niko. As an imo it doesn't all that much reaction time, its something I'll admit someone has to get used to. Its hard to rationalize that going offstage is safe and worth it most of the time if you feel its better to stay on the stage more.

If KDJ taught me one thing its to just barrel through **** and don't understand what fear means lol. Maybe tomorrow though.